i am throwing about 300 feet. I still can not seem to keep the nose of a disc down! I probably throw about 350 but with the nose up it comes back 50 feet or more. Would any one be able to give me some help on keping the nose down! thanks

A quick fix is to move your thumb closer to the edge. the best place is to put it where the rim starts so half of the thumb is on the rim and half is on the plate.

If that doesn't work, change your grip all together.

I'm pretty new too, and I usually have pretty straight throws that are around 300 or 350 , but still am not perfectly consistent and get nose up a bit still. If I just concentrate on the nose angle of at the moment I release the disc and envision the line I want it to take I will have my farthest, straightest throws. When I concentrate on how to speed up my rotation and fix other parts of my throw, my focus goes away from the nose angle of the disc, and I'll be more apt to throw nose up. I doubt my overall technique is very good at that point, but the moral of the story is concentrating on other things before the release won't do you any good if you can't release the disc nose down. So maybe it'll be best if you just work on getting a low nose angle, and work on your technique back from that point?

Jack - that sounds like some great advice. I'm def gonna use that approach tomorrow when I practice.

Last post was kinda concerning the mentality of the throw. If you want some advice more about altering your technique than mentality, I also hear it helps to make sure your weight is over your plant foot at the rip.

What is your arm motion like? Are you guys pulling straight across your chest?

When you throw, stand straight. Pull your disc across in line with your nipples. This will give you a nice flat release. Wrist stiffened with thumb pointing slightly downward. This forces the nose down and increases snap. And as was mentioned before, weight over your plant foot at release. This keeps you from shifting body angle and pulling the nose up or down because you are off balance or torqueing your back or knees. Also as was mentioned before, once everything else is worked out, adjusting your thumb position can help fine tune your nose angle.

For more info and probably a better description plus pictures check out Blake T's site discgolfreview.com (http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles.shtml) . That link takes you right to the instructional articles. You can find all kinds of info there that can be helpful. Check out the whole site. He's got video of pros throwing, disc suggestions, and all kinds of other stuff. Hope it helps

I always wonder if anyone ever really "pulls straight across their chest"? I think either I'm interpreting those words incorrectly or it is some bad advice because it implies a linear motion where almost all (if not all) good throwers use a centrifugal motion after the disc is against their chest.

I only comment on this because I think following the advice of "pulling through" (at least how I interpreted those words) put me in a hole that I am just now climbing out of.

Perhaps thats not the best way to really describe it because that does sound like it may be all arm which it isn't. The pull does come from body motion and starts from the hips rotating from closed to open, then the shoulders following and doing the same. After that the arm just follows along straight across the chest.

James gets 2nd in T-States and he says he's getting out of his hole. Come back to the Open and you'll relize real quick your still in a hole :DJ/K James. I agree, I think pull str8 through is is a loose interpretation on what actually happens which is a centrifigal motion.

Fittin Dudski,

Problems with the nose?

One must rotate the wrist and fingers clockwise (1/4 inch or so?) at the very end of the snap. Like turning a key in a door knob (lots of practice involved). Turn your wrist (i.e., turn the key) at the same time your elbow and then your wrist, unfolds. This moves the nose of the disc downward at the same time rotation is established.

Successful implementation of this techique will minimize the profile of the disc (i.e., you can only see the edge of the disc). A disc thrown nose up will reveal more of the disc's top.

Tis my opinion, anyway. I can throw about 400' if I gotta (most of the time anyways).

I think the term pulling straight thru is to differentiate the motion from the classic "Frisbee" throwing motion.

The Frisbee motion was more of a large arc with the disc not coming very close to the chest.

The DG motion brings the disc "straight" from it's rearward position very close to the chest and on to the release position. In fact one of the drills you can use to develop your motion is to stand about 18"s from a wall and reach back and pull thru without hitting the wall with the disc.

Someday, I would love to see overhead views of good players or accurate overhead plots of the path of the disc through the throwing motion. I'm suspecting it is not a straight line.

Again, the only reason I bring it up on this thread is that trying to achieve straight line IMO can lead to a slight dip in the swing, thus creating a nose up throw.

Good point. Using one of those resistance tube exercisors will show you any lifts or dips in your motion. If you attach the band in the same plane as the throwing motion, any upward or downward motion in the throw becomes very obvious.

Try filming you and your buddies with a cam corder. You can put the play back in slow motion and this will show you exactly how you and those you want to throw like are throwing.
I've been surprised between the difference in how I thought I was throwing and how I was actually doing it.

How can you tell the difference between a nose down throw and the disc just very level without nose up or down? When do you know you're getting the nose down and can stop trying to fix that aspect of your throw?

well you will know because more than likely the disc will stop going up so high.. it will want to go straight(or hyzer, or annhyzer, but without getting a ton of height)...
you will notice that the disc(if you have your weight in front of your plant foo) will not want to go high in the air.. it will proably get to only about 15-25 feet on a 250+ shot.. that means that for the most part the nose is Level or Down.
Once that is corrected then you will know how to throw a "true Hyzer".. in which you're pulling throw a little lower or leaning down and that puts the disc on a hyzer angle(not the nose up or down.. it's the other tilt of the disc)

I hope that helped..
If you videotape yourself(even digital Cameras with Video recording capabilities can do the trick) You will see whether the disc goes straight out of your hand or it starts rising...
When i watch video of myself i can see the disc gets release flat and the Driver Creates it's own LIFT into the air.

Hope i helped.

-"I suck" Scott
I might suck, but i know a crapload about the game..

Someday, I would love to see overhead views of good players or accurate overhead plots of the path of the disc through the throwing motion. I'm suspecting it is not a straight line.

Again, the only reason I bring it up on this thread is that trying to achieve straight line IMO can lead to a slight dip in the swing, thus creating a nose up throw.



Even if you take a look at Theo Pozzy's videos you can see that the disc doesn't take a straight path. Shultz and Rico seem to have a little jig in at the start of their throws. Ken Jarvis seems to have a very slight parbola from the start of his pull through to release.

I always wonder if anyone ever really "pulls straight across their chest"? I think either I'm interpreting those words incorrectly or it is some bad advice because it implies a linear motion where almost all (if not all) good throwers use a centrifugal motion after the disc is against their chest.

I only comment on this because I think following the advice of "pulling through" (at least how I interpreted those words) put me in a hole that I am just now climbing out of.



Wow! This sounds incredibly familiar! I went through two years of trying to perfect my throw making slight adjustments to my mechanics, grip etc. I got to the point where my consistent average was about 320 to 330 feet with fairly good technique. But I had to use a very careful pull through that was very slow (about 30 to 50% of my speed) right up to the rip where I would snap it out. Then one day I woke up. It is all about where you put that whip (see Blake and Dave's stuff).

All good throws have a torque inducing whip at the end. One of those two said the following two things. First, the later in the throw that whip is the better the throw. Second, even a rank amatuer that has poor techniqe should be able to throw 350 feet. I thought "if a slob can throw 350 feet why can't I? All the careful motions don't mean anything if you can't get the throw over 350 feet." So I quit worrying about mechanics and focused on that torque inducing whip. I don't know why I chose that part of the throw but it worked. That is why my slow motion throw worked, it forced the whip into the latest possible part of my throw thus giving me snap at the correct point.

At this point, my mechanics aren't as good as they were but I consitently throw over 350 feet and I can roll over 430 feet.

Too much focus on the mechanics (one of the two said this also) can get you away from the most fundamental keys to distance. All of my focus on a linear pull through took me away from a hard pull through with a good snap at the latest possible moment.

Now I am working on the little technique things again and I am starting to hit 380 to 390 foot throws.

I strongly suspect that the biggest problem most players have, that can't throw over 350 feet (no matter what their age) is getting a good hard snap as late in the throw as possible.

There is one other key component. Your arm has to be relaxed until the snap (also from Blake or Dave). By doing this the disc naturally comes in close to your chest ( I tried for awhile to move it directly across my chest... doesn't work, at least for me). By being relaxed, you allow your elbow to bend naturally as you pull through with your torso and shoulders bringing the disc in and getting proper elbow bend necessary for good elbow extension at the snap. After a long road I'm back to James's original comment; because of this the disc is very unlikely to follow some perfect straight line across your chest. it is going to meander in (see Barry Shultz or Steve Rico) and then loop out a little as you bring it across your chest (see Ken Jarvis). All of this is inconsequential (also a Dave or Blake quote) as long as the disc is in the proper place at the hit.

My apologies to Dave and Blake for being too lazy to attribute your quotes properly. On the other hand, thanks for being thoughtful about throwing and then sharing.

Maybe it'd be better for people to say "pull it straight forward" instead of "pull it straight across your chest" ?

Lyle. I can't throw very far. When I try to throw far, I often dip my lefty shoulder or somthing and get big hyzers. Or feel like I'm turning a disc over too much. Every now and then I remind myself to slow down my throw. I think slowing down the throw not only helps teach someone wrist snap, but also I think it also helps a person learn a clean release. The disc goes about as far, but seems to have less velocity and turnover.

Maybe it'd be better for people to say "pull it straight forward" instead of "pull it straight across your chest" ?

Lyle. I can't throw very far. When I try to throw far, I often dip my lefty shoulder or somthing and get big hyzers. Or feel like I'm turning a disc over too much. Every now and then I remind myself to slow down my throw. I think slowing down the throw not only helps teach someone wrist snap, but also I think it also helps a person learn a clean release. The disc goes about as far, but seems to have less velocity and turnover.



Here's a trick that helps me to avoid the big hyzers. First, envision the path you want the disc to fly down (choose a window you are throwing into at about 50 feet). Think about how the disc is going to fly down that path. Now when you actually throw, throw the disc down that path remembering that all that really matters is the hit at the entrance to the path you are throwing down. By having your hit at the entrance to that path you avoid dropping your shoulder down, which is what causes the big hyzers (this is Scott Stokley advice).

There is one other trick I used to teach myself to throw straight but it involves taking two steps back for one step forward. I used my opposite hand to load my disc. So on my reach back I would bring the disc back and using both hands put it into the position I wanted it to be in upon release. This helps you to focus on getting and holding the disc in the right position. The problems are obvious. Do you want to be focusing on your disc at the back of your wind up or at the hit? And do you want your off hand up when it should be down at your side so you can get maximum rotation? The strength of this is it slows everything down and forces you to line everything up thus avoiding certain kinds of mistakes. Furthermore, perfecting this makes putting the disc in the right position a natural part of your throw (part of being in the right position is having your arm lined up on the path you want to throw down (Scott Stokley), this may also contribute to your hyzers, the path you are lining your arm up on is a hyzer path.

Finally, your idea that slowing things down helps you to learn good wrist snap is correct. What I've read many times, and agree with is the best way to accomplish this is with a midrange. The fact is that most pros can throw a midrange 80% of what they can throw their drivers (even I can throw my midrange 300 feet). Another fact is that you can't do this unless you throw the midrange correctly. Midranges are unforgiving of bad technique. It turned out for me that I had been throwing midranges very nearly correctly but throwing drivers differently. The key was a little more drive and emphasis on the snap. Soooooo, you might want to consider some serious practice with a midrange.

Lastly, you said the nasty D word. That is you claimed you had no distance. Distance is a fleeting illusory goal. I generally throw further than the other masters on my cards (not always). Inevitably they kick my back end (I'm a DFL player). Why? Because those guys have killer up shots and killer putts. The winners in this game don't rely heavily on long drives (yes they have it as a tool) they rely on their short game. Don't denigrate your distance; learn to putt!

there have been good comments so far. i will add a few...

imo, keeping the nose down comes down to two main factors.

1) maintaining proper disc orientation and pulling through the plane.

2) finishing well/strong.

as for #1, this refers to having the disc oriented along with the wrist in a way that will launch nose down upon extension of the elbow. basically, think of a plane (or large piece of plywood if you need a more visual example) that extends on the plane you want to throw. generally you want your throw to put as much power on the disc upon this plane. while it is not necessary to keep the disc on this from start of the pull to the finish, i believe it is much easier to do so and will decrease error variables in the long run, especially for developing players.

something i have noticed a lot are players that change the orientation of the disc between the start of their pull to the hit. while several top pros do this (brian mcree and timmy gill are a couple), they already have the technique and muscle memory to perform this.

however, this is not something i condone or teach for any developing players and often have traced this to inconsistencies with players i have worked with. i generally recommend to "lock in" the disc orientation early. what this entails is committing your forearm and disc orientation to the type of throw you wish to perform from the start. if you hold the disc in front of the center of your chest, for a hyzer, your inner forearm will be pointed slightly upwards and your hand will be slightly "below" the disc. for an anhyzer, your inner forearm will be pointed slightly downwards and your hand will be slightly "above" the disc. for a flat shot, your inner forearm will be perpendicular to the ground.

as for #2... a strong finish does a lot...
for a lot of players (throwing under 350), the disc has a tendency to hinge a little bit upon the rip. a strong finish will ensure the disc maintains proper orientation through the rip.

hope this helps

I once asked Dave D for some tips on keeping the nose down and here's what he said:


As for getting nose down: two main things to do. First, is to keep your wrist down as far as it will comfortably go such that the plane of the disc is lined up with your forearm or is tilting down a little if that is possible for you. Next is to lead with your elbow high so that as you pull through the snap you will naturally drop your elbow and pull the nose down through the snap. The last thing is to try and throw the back end of your disc over the front through the snap.

I think I need to be more conscious of what my elbow is doing.

Great Thread!!!

Regarding the hit and slowing down your stroke....

Dave Feldberg out at Canadian Nationals last year in Kamloops put on an impromptu clinic for the stragglers after the tourney. He said the problem with most peoples technique is they pull too fast. They start with a good reach back, but pull as hard they can ... 100% power at the start then 90%, 80%, 70% ... and by the time they hit release they're at less power.

With a good drive, he said, you want to start at 10% .... 20% ... then POW 100% at the hit.

His advice really pulled things together for me. I'm still working it, but I'm driving farther, more accurate, and most of all ... it feels a lot more fluid and not forceful.

Keep the thread going....

DB

Does anyone feel like a stonger grip at the lock point/fingers helps them get the nose down, or the back of the disc above the top?

I noticed when i get a good grip at the hit the disc goes Farther and straighter and i guess i try and get the back of the disc above the top, but i'm still working on it.

I just bought the Marshal street DGC DVD and have been doing some player analysis.. It's just amazing how Weird a good throw actually looks.. When you slow it down it looks really retarded because the elbow usually drops out of nowhere then comes up a little when the body weight shifts forward more and the hips start pulling the arm around. Seems like something that You "wouldn't know" you were doing, but essential, LIke D said, for a good drive..

-"I suck" Scott

Just a sidenote- it is possible to throw with the "nose" down while throwing a sky hyzer, like distance throwers do. In this case the nose refers to the leading edge of the disc- and what you want to accomplish is a long flight that 'falls' for most of its time aloft. To accomplish this you need a lot of strength and speed, but it helps to imagine striking a target with the back of your hand, where this target will be for you depends on your body- height, proportion, arm length etc. But imagine your pointer finger and middle finger kuckles as creating the plane of the disc in flight. It's not quite a perfect benchmark, but it helps!
It may also help to keep your arm almost fully extended or "straight arm your prep- again, you will modify this over time, but these are useful learning aids.

Thanks.

Pete

Pete_M, good stuff here. I'm curious as to the type of grip you use...


It may also help to keep your arm almost fully extended or "straight arm your prep- again, you will modify this over time, but these are useful learning aids.



Can you also explain the "straight arming your prep"? Is all this info for the nosedown sky hyzer? Thanks.
Doc

Sure Doc. I use a "power" grip I think that's the correct term, with all the tips of the four fingers against the inner rim of the disc. When I say straight arming, I mean en exaggerated motion (just a learning aid) where you lock your throwing elbow during your runup, and release as you throw elliptically across your chest. Yes this is more useful for the hyzer, because you want to utilize the big muscles and the cross body power on those long throws.

But imagine your pointer finger and middle finger kuckles as creating the plane of the disc in flight. It's not quite a perfect benchmark, but it helps!



Pete, thanks for this little trick/tool. I played ultimate for years before switching to disc golf, and it is really hard to get my muscle memory to not throw with hyzer when i am trying to get distance. i tried your knuckle alignment tip out Saturday, and voila -- i was throwing high turnover shots with very stable discs. Can't wait to tweak this.