I was playing last night and the mullet I was playing with said that you have 2 minutes each to tee off, but 30 seconds after finding and marking your disc to throw (for approaches and putts).

I told him I was pretty sure it was 30 seconds for teeing off too. Out of curiousity I just scanned the rules and to my surprise found no specific rule on teeing. So, can anyone clarify?

This is what I did find:

801.03 EXCESSIVE TIME
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.


But, this implies a non-teeing shot due to obvious wording.

and


804.02 BEGINNING PLAY
A. Shotgun Starts (rounds where several groups start simultaneously):
...snip...
If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified.


But, this seems to only apply to players who do not show up to play on time.

So, to answer my own question, I would make a "logical extension of the closest existing rule" (803.00E) in this case. That rule would be the one just listed.

Why is time allowed to tee not listed explicitly in the rules? Seems strange to me.

This is a pretty good question. Does the rule for excessive time cover teeing off or not?

I should add: I checked the rules, too, and found the same problem Dave did. Seems like teeing off isn't explicitly covered the excessive time rule. Dave, did you email the Rules Committee for a clarification?

The two quoted rules (both stating 30 seconds) give me good confidence that 30 seconds is the limit on subsequent tee offs as well.

Where the hell did he pull two-minutes from?

I should add: I checked the rules, too, and found the same problem Dave did. Seems like teeing off isn't explicitly covered the excessive time rule. Dave, did you email the Rules Committee for a clarification?



I have not emailed the rules committee since my extrapolation of similar rules works for me since I'm not one to be tied in knots over legalese.

But�I assume someone could be a butt and wait for say 5 minutes for the wind to die down or a rain shower to pass and point to the rule book and say that that was not against the rules. They would be technically correct.

Has this been discussed before? I can not find the thread using the search engine if it has.

There have been discussions about this...

(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

...with some of us (including yours truly) feeling that it could be removed with no true detriment to play, but nothing official has ever been proposed as far as I know.

Your point about waiting 5 minutes for the wind to die down is a semi-valid one. The player would only have to say, "I am being distracted by the sound of the wind blowing through the trees." to justify waiting.

That is a twist on it that I hadn't thought of. That would be a good clarification to add. I don't think deleting it would be good, because there are probably a myriad of ligitimate distractions that could extend the 30 second rule (such as a car driving by close to the basket by when you are focusing in on the putt.

Yeah, but I think free of distractions does not include mother nature.

So if the wind is blowing you have your certain length of time(30 seconds) to throw. Mother Nature is not a distraction.

� Mother Nature is not a distraction.



Tournaments can be delayed or cancelled because of Her, See 804.04
RAIN OR HAZARDOUS CONDITIONS.


But you probably were not talking about extreme conditions.

Nope...not talking about extreme conditions.

But I am also apt to give you a few more seconds if the wind is really bad or it is raining(to dry off a place on the disc or to have the rain stop blowing in your face).

Where in the rule book does it say mother nature is not a distraction?

Ok...

you sit out there and wait for wind to die down or for the rain to stop before you throw and I bet you will have a ton of people complaining.

Plus one day while I was playing in a tourny where the weather wasn't the best, a touring pro told me that mother nature couldn't be used as a distraction.

Cheat, I totally agree that you'll have a bunch of ticked off people if you did that. But the rule does not mention what may or may not be considered a distraction:

A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

B. A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.


I am not saying I condone that of course, but as the rule is written there are quite a few loopholes that could be used to circumvent what I assume is the intent behind it.

Removing the 'free of distractions' part would remove the biggest loophole. It would also (IMO) add an extra element of excitement to the game.

Gary Sheffield can hit a 95 m.p.h. fastball while 40,000 people cheer, curse, flash pictures, etc. Mary Lou Retton can land a backflip on a 4 inch wide piece of plywood while thousands cheer for someone on the floor exercise. Kerry Collins can throw 3 interceptions while.....oh wait, not a good example there. :)

So why can't some people attempt a 20 foot putt unless everyone within 100 yards holds their breath and stands motionless for 30 seconds? Puhleeze.

BTW, thanks to Randy Wimm for the Mary Lou analogy.

It's Rhett's fault. He started it. (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showthreaded.php?Number=133055)

Go to that post and check out his 9th question. The non-rule has just grown to 2 minutes since that time.


The two quoted rules (both stating 30 seconds) give me good confidence that 30 seconds is the limit on subsequent tee offs as well.

Where the hell did he pull two-minutes from?

Where the hell did he pull two-minutes from?



Probably some tournament he was at where the TD decided that was a rule. I have friends that continue to try and convince me that it costs you an extra stroke if your disc ends up haning in the chains of the basket rather than falling into the basket. Apparently they were at some tournament where that rule was enforced.

Even though it isn't in the rules, I consider this one of the unspoken courtesy type rules.

For example, there is no rule in baseball that prevents a runner on second base from stealing the sign from the catch and relaying it to the hitter. Nor is it illegal for a hitter to look back at the catcher while he is signaling for a certain pitch. Not many people do it because it is unprofessional and uncourteous.

One more thing. If it is raining or if there is a consistant wind, I consider that a part of the playing area. Just like we consider trees and water are a part of the playing area.

Let's say you are playing a tourny and a gust of wind starts to blow when you are about to tee off. If it hadn't been windy all day and it was a one time gust, I would let you wait until the gust dies down. But if it has been windy all day, then I would probably say something to you about the time issue.

capiche?

This is a very good question and it came up in a group I played with last weekend.
The ladies began on hole 18 and caught the lead Pro group on hole 3 during round 2. After witnessing first hand a player take longer than 30 seconds to putt and no one call him on it, we were perturbed (to say it nicely) that we had to wait on every single friggin hole after that for the rest of the day.
When we got to hole #8, we noticed the lead group took approximately ten mintues to tee off on a 300 or less ft hole #9.
For some reason I had it stuck in my mind that there was a two minute window for tee off. I am an official so we got our rules books out and had the same discussion as you are having here.
After a lengthy talk,the lead group finally moved on and we decied that the courtesy call on time needed to come from a player in stated lead group.
On hole #13 we caught them again and I called one aside and said "Are you guys taking longer than 30 seconds on the tee?"
I was told it had been mentioned within the group.
It was not until the 4th round that a player in the lead group finally gave a warning to another player in that group that he was taking more than half a minute on his shots.

What is the rule on tee offs?
Do we need to set a time limit on recording scores because I have seen players sit down and add them up before finishing the last hole to see how valuable their last putt was in relation to the cash payout.
This is comeplete baloney because it negatively impacts the rest of the playing field.
I do everything fast. Talk, eat, read, and play disc golf.
I also have ADD tendencies.
It pains me to wait on every tee and watch the group ahead do everything possible to prevent teeing off in a reasonable time.

If you take longer than 30 seconds after approaching your lie to throw or putt, YOU ARE CHEATING!
Do Not Let People in Your Group CHEAT!!!!!

But we need a cut and dry clear rule about tee off times.
What is it?
Thanks,
Sue Anne Beym

Even though it isn't in the rules, I consider this one of the unspoken courtesy type rules.

For example, there is no rule in baseball that prevents a runner on second base from stealing the sign from the catch and relaying it to the hitter. Nor is it illegal for a hitter to look back at the catcher while he is signaling for a certain pitch. Not many people do it because it is unprofessional and uncourteous.



You really think batters don't try to peek at where the catcher sets up? Or runners on 2nd don't try to tip off the batter? Maybe in shangri-la, but sign stealing happens at every level in baseball, we even did it in Junior PeeWees!

One of the reasons you don't see it as often in MLB is because most batters know that if they get caught stealing a sign the next pitch will be headed straight for their ear.

One more thing. If it is raining or if there is a consistant wind, I consider that a part of the playing area. Just like we consider trees and water are a part of the playing area.

Let's say you are playing a tourny and a gust of wind starts to blow when you are about to tee off. If it hadn't been windy all day and it was a one time gust, I would let you wait until the gust dies down. But if it has been windy all day, then I would probably say something to you about the time issue.

capiche?



Cheat, you are completely missing the point. What you and most others consider a common courtesy is not in the rule book. The rule book states that a player has 30 seconds once the area is free and clear of DISTRACTIONS. Since the rule book fails to define what is or is not a legitimate distraction, players can (and regularly do) use b.s. excuses to delay the start of that 30 second clock. This rarely happens in Am play, but almost always happens in Pro groups (as observed by Sue Anne, above).

My recommendation is to remove the 'free and clear of distractions' verbage. I've stated why somewhere up the thread.

Plus one day while I was playing in a tourny where the weather wasn't the best, a touring pro told me that mother nature couldn't be used as a distraction.



Oh, well if a touring pro told you, it must be true. :p

No I am not missing the point. I am seeing your point where it says "clear and free of distractions." All that I am saying is if it is raining the day of a tourny, then you can't use the rain as a "distraction." The rain becomes a part of the "playing area"

Since the rule book fails to define what is or is not a legitimate distraction, players can (and regularly do) use b.s. excuses to delay the start of that 30 second clock.



Show me where it is defined that rain is part of the playing field.

The only definition of 'distraction' I can find is in the dictionary:

dis�trac�tion (d-strkshn)
n.

A condition or state of mind in which the attention is diverted from an original focus or interest.

I know that you shouldn't use the rain or wind as a distraction. You know it. Most others know it. But if someone wanted to, it is within the rules as they are currently written to do so.

"The wind is blowing the tree branches behind the basket, it's distracting me."

"A car is driving on the road and I can hear it, it's distracting me."

"I have bionic ears and can hear someone breathing 4 holes away, it's distracting me."

"You are chewing gum while I try to concentrate, it's distracting me."

"The sound of the rain hitting the leaves is too loud, it's distracting me."

All of the above are legitimate excuses to delay the start of the '30 second clock'. They could even be used after the 30 second clock has started, in effect giving the thrower a new shot clock.

What if I said that the person that told me is a member of the rules committee?

Cause in talking to a friend about it, he agreed with me about weather not being a distraction. Then he also included, "a member of the RC has even stated so."

Then I'd say "Great!".

Until they post something in the Q&A or amend the rule book to include what is considered a distraction you could have had the Pope tell it to you, and it wouldn't matter. Just because someone on the rules committee said you can't use the weather doesn't amount to a hill of beans at the Up 'n' Chuck C-Tier in Kalamazoo, MI, where they must use the rule book to decide these things. Yomsayin?

I've played in like 10 tournaments in my life and have never seen anybody call 30 seconds on anybody. Who even carries a watch with a second hand? The only watch I have is my cell phone and it's minutes only. Calling 30 seconds is lame unless the guy is taking like 3 minutes on every shot or something.

I have never called it personally, but I have asked people to play a little faster between rounds because they were taking too long between throws and it was causing a back up on the holes.

And Dan, I think we are agreeing on some things. Yes, the rule needs to be clarified. A distraction needs to be defined.

But do you think if a tourny is played in the rain that someone could really use that as an excuse to take more than 30 seconds on throws?

William, we definitely agree that it is not kosher to do that. Some form of clarification would definitely help. I would never do it, but I have seen guys that took a LONG time between throws.

At Worlds there was a guy that did some funky kinda of Tai Chi or something before every shot. Took forever, until guys started warning him and timing him.

You didn't need a watch with a second hand for this guy, you could have timed him with a sundial!

As your post shows a player has 30 seconds from the time the previous player throws to make their throw on any shot..

At the start of a tournament, the first player has 30 seconds from the start horn. 30 seconds seems is a long time when playing with a slow golfer. It's often best to explain tactfully to the player to be ready, when it's their turn and be courteous of other players or no one will want to play with them.. Remember it's all about having fun!

801.03 EXCESSIVE TIME
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,

As your post shows a player has 30 seconds from the time the previous player throws to make their throw on any shot..
...snip...
801.03 EXCESSIVE TIME
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,



You are almost right. And you are probably right, I suspect, in regards to the intent of the rule. But, you are technically incorrect.

See that word "and"? That means that the other conditions are logically linked (it does not say "or"). Condition 2 has to ALSO be met (not an either/or) - "(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie". This implies that this rule does not apply to teeing off, since there is no disc to arrive at or mark when teeing off.

Yes, but as you said yourself, 803.00E says " If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness. "

The logical extension of 801.03A would be in bold below

A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; or in the case of teeing of, to arrive at the teeing area and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions

and then if you use that phrasing of the rule you have to define what a distraction is, and when can weather be used as a distraction.

Over the weekend, I emailed CH and asked him what he thought of the situation and I just got this:


Hello Will,

Thirty (30) seconds is the amount of time one has from which to throw from the tee.

In regards to what constitutes a distraction...well that can easily vary from group to group (since in general, it is the group that would call someone for 30 seconds). I know that the weather will not be used as a distraction in my group. If a group mate disagrees, then we'll stand aside and call for an official.

I've never heard of a player using weather as a legitimate means of prolonging their shot preparation. I have seen countless players (all pros) try to stall while they waited for the wind to die down. Usually these stalling tactics disappear with the first 30 second call. (The first is only a warning.)

Since all players must deal with the same weather situations, it's simply not reasonable to allow it to interfere. In rainy conditions, most players do expand their definition of "reasonable time" as most players do like to wipe off their discs and tend to their umbrellas. Again, any group mate can speed up play (even in rainy conditions) by invoking the 30 second rule and/or calling for an official.

Take care,

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman



He sent it to other members of the rules committee also, so maybe there will be a new Q&A soon.