I was curious why people prefer Innova's old CE plastic to the new Champion plastic. I can understand that the discs are more expensive since there are less of them, but why do a lot of people consider them better for play?

Thanks,
Chris

Old school CE in my opinion ages better than any other plastic, and is just as durable as the new "more durable" Champion plastic.Alot of the prices you see for that plastic isnt being paid to play with it.Alot of people are buying it for resale,or as a collectible.Personally,I dont throw alot of the old CE,Leopards and TLs,Firebirds,Eagles {I always thought Valks sucked}but I still have a bunch for collection reasons.I dont think the new plastic is much worse,but the stiffness and the ability for it to stay stiff after years of abuse cannot be denied.The first CE plastic and the opaque Millinnium plastic will always be tops in my book.

The opaque old school grippy CE plastic is as good as it gets. Discraft has had some runs of Z Plastic comparable to it as well. It ages better, last longer and and is much more grippy IMHO. I have 2001 1st runs TeeBirds and Rocs that are 3+ years old that are still functional discs (probably the real reason they quite making it) ;)

I myself think that everyone thats still throwing CE plastic and doesnt have back ups of their own are CRAZY. Now adays its almost impossible to replace an exact disc and if you can do it used CE stuff is going for 30 or more dollars now. That is just insane.

I prefer Z Plastic myself. In fact the only D plastic in my bag is my Putters :D

Old school CE in my opinion ages better than any other plastic, and is just as durable as the new "more durable" Champion plastic.Alot of the prices you see for that plastic isnt being paid to play with it.Alot of people are buying it for resale,or as a collectible.Personally,I dont throw alot of the old CE,Leopards and TLs,Firebirds,Eagles {I always thought Valks sucked}but I still have a bunch for collection reasons.I dont think the new plastic is much worse,but the stiffness and the ability for it to stay stiff after years of abuse cannot be denied.The first CE plastic and the opaque Millinnium plastic will always be tops in my book.



Hmmmmmmm...........................Ever throw , what has been called, A Frank'n Valk ? I have. These were flat top CE Valks' which were very stable. Almost overstable. Hard to find though.

I still have a couple of Red Candy Valks , max weight , one of which I have thrown. These are stable. Awesome driver.

One of my favorites is the Original Red Candy T-bird.
They fly like a dream. Head wind , no problem. Holds flat Hyzer without drifting much. :D

The CE plastic came out of the molds flatter than todays Champion plastic, I like the feel of the flatter discs in my hand, that is the only advantage to Z or champion plastic in my personal opinion. It is a matter of taste!

The CE plastic came out of the molds flatter than todays Champion plastic, I like the feel of the flatter discs in my hand, that is the only advantage to Z or champion plastic in my personal opinion. It is a matter of taste!



It also has less flex when Torqued Hard. They handle being thrown hard at a velocity not always recognized by the regular disc golfer :eek: :D

It also has less flex when Torqued Hard. They handle being thrown hard at a velocity not always recognized by the regular disc golfer



Thats why i like Z and DGAs Blend. You can TORQUE the heck of out these plastics. It has to be able to handle my SNAP :o

For those that don't have the arm to torque DG discs, go out and get one of these (http://www.aerobie.com/Products/SquidgieDisc.htm)
and throw it hard. The disc is so pliable that you can see the easily see the deformation in the rim and flight plane. It is reasonable to assume that DG discs would suffer the same stresses when thrown near their limits as well. They are just so stiff that few golfers experience the problem and fewer still recognise it.

When the CE discs first came out, we were calling the stuff "indestructible" plastic...whether that was an INNOVA term or our own euphemism, I'm not sure, but I don't seem to hear that anymore. 'Candy' was clear then, only.

It was, however, the first plastic I noticed capable of taking a skip off of asphalt without the result looking like a 'cheese grater'! I'm just peeved I had a 'thing' for max-weight discs then; I was under the illusion more=better.

Aw, well, one provided my first ace over 250', so it's all good... :D

CE plastic had the perfect blend of grip, durrability, flex, flight for every disc it came in. Most people worship it because the early Champion sucked compared to CE. The Newer runs Champion are actually quite nice!

That being said, Gateway S rules over all!

I dont know if it was a Frank n Valk but I did have a white flat top Valk that was overstable.I guess hate is a strong word,I just didnt like CE Valks.SEs I liked for the week,then it was a roller.

I very much prefer the Special Edition Valks over the CE Valks. The SE's feel a lot better in my hand,fly farther,far less fade at the end,and are far more predictable.I have several of each and will never throw the CE's again.(just my opinion)

I throw sidearm, and I really like the flight pattern of the Champion Valks and teebirds I have, but because I am a small guy with small hands, they tend to lose their grip when I am playing during the summer in Arkansas. The main problem for me is that Valks don't come in the new proline plastic, so I am having to resort to CE or SE.

Chris

That being said, Gateway S rules over all!



I second that!

That being said, Gateway S rules over all!



I second that!



Make that a Third.

I throw CE because it is the only thing I have left. If my score is not going to look cool atleast what I am throwing might :o

I keep hearing that there is a huge difference between the CE and the pro-line (new champion) stuff. Not in my hands. I hade some old CE, it was tough, I have some new champion stuff, it is tough.

I didn't like the CE stuff. It was very hard (like the Z plastic is). The newer champion plastics are softer and easier for me to grip while still being just as resilient in my hands. My experience is (maybe incorrectly so) that the newer champion plastic is getting harder with time and becoming more like the CE plastic.

The key to old CE plastic (and some choice runs of Z plastic) was how opaque it was. The first couple runs of CE plastic were opage and quite grippy. As the blend in the plastic changed it becam more transparent the discs were more stiff and not quite as grippy. They were some exceptions like the light gummy CE Valks that came out or in Z plastic the Clear Flashes are nice and grippy as well.

Lyle - I'll trade you for the old CE stuff you don't want anymore :)

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Thats why i like Z and DGAs Blend. You can TORQUE the heck of out these plastics. It has to be able to handle my SNAP :o

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be careful when you handle yourself pimp we wouldn't want you to snap anything off :o

I have a 164 gr. CE Valk either first or second run, used. That I would like to trade someone for a used CE TL or a CFR Glo TL. PM me if interested. Thanks a million.

Hey Gimp,

Lousy timing, all my CE is pretty much gone. I let it go by simple attrition (it belongs to that great pond in the sky). If I come across any its yours! Here is what I'm pretty sure I have. At least one T bird, At least one Eagle (you don't want it, it's actually understable, I kid you not), I might be able to scare up another Eagle that I donated to a friend who never uses it. I will be out at the willy tomorrow about 11:00 with at least the t bird if you are out there.

No trading, while its not in bad shape its not new and I owe you as does everyone who gets to play GCCS.

BTW - I have a good bit of Z plastic, much of which I don't use (they've also changed their plastic and the new stuff is better for me). The old stuff is harder like the CE and you are welcome to peruse it, let me know and I will bring it.

Cool - what did you ever do with your cart?

Any CE stuff you have that I don't throw would go into the GCCS raffle :)

West Coast Innova just released a bunch of CE Eagles...I guess they were lost somewhere...Our club got about 30 of em...but they all sold like hot-cakes

Do you really think Innova "LOST" these CE Eagles or do you think they still have stock piles of CE laying around and they were just waiting till the market got low???

Interesting dont you think???

Doesnt matter to me i throw discraft because if i lose one of their discs i can just go buy the same one and have it fly the same way without whatever breaking in I did to it :o:D

I wouldn't be surprised. Innova is in business to make money, plain and simple. If you want a new disc that was built for real world disc golfers, get a Discraft, or better yet, a Gateway disc. Even though Innova owns the rights to a couple of the greatest golf discs ever (ROC, Aviar), they haven't made a "golfers disc" since the teebird, in my opinion.

I wouldn't be surprised. Innova is in business to make money, plain and simple. If you want a new disc that was built for real world disc golfers, get a Discraft, or better yet, a Gateway disc. Even though Innova owns the rights to a couple of the greatest golf discs ever (ROC, Aviar), they haven't made a "golfers disc" since the teebird, in my opinion.



Give me a break...For one, no disc golf company is in it simply to make money. We are a fringe sport and a relatively small market in the scheme of things, so the companies have to invest a lot more into disc golf than say Nike has to invest into track and field, etc. These companies make the disc golf world go round. Tell me that Dave D. is answering all of our stupid questions every day just to make money... These people LOVE this sport and simply have the knowledge and experience to impact it, which just so happens to require the management of resources. And how about direct response to consumer demands? Many people on this UBB wanted discs in SE type plasic again and expressed this to Dave D., and he did it. Then, people were complaing about the durability, and Dave stepped up and changed the mix. Now the Pro line is nearly as durable as Champion, but still for about $10 a pop. I don't have a degree in business, but I know that this is not the type of move that a profit-maximizing philosophy would dictate.

On a second note, the Orc = a longer Teebird, period. If you do not see this, then you have not thrown the Orc enough, or have not found the right Orc for you. It is an awesome disc, and sure, the characteristics that make the Orc longer also make it a bit touchier, but since the Teebird isn't touchy at all, it is still not enough to make the disc unpredictable in the least. Most of my Orcs fall more or less into the TL's range of stability, but I own ones that are as overstable as an E Spirit and ones that were more on the level of an overstable run of Flashes or a Crush. I assure you, the Orc is a golfer's disc, and don't take my word, just ask Barry or Schweb...

Well written reply discspeed... I can see the point people are making about Innova, but I think it is misguided. Innova already had a good stock of sure fire "golfer discs" and it appears as if they are just trying to expand that with discs that may just happen to go beyond certain peoples "comfort" range. While these new discs may not be as trusty as your old ones, it is only through experimentation that disc technology can go forward.