this came up at a tournament I was at a few weeks ago... i feel its a pretty unique situation but i wanted to know what the DGRZ's thought.

there was a major backup of about 4 groups on a given hole. we arrived there, waited through most of the groups in front of us as groups piled in the back of the queue, and after the group ahead of us teed off one of our group members walked ahead with that group to chat with a buddy of his on that card. it's a very tight wooded hole with a dogleg left ~200 feet off the tee, with another ~150 to 250 to the pin (depending on which pin placement you're playing to).

The three of us in our group left standing on the tee wanted to throw off once we knew the group ahead was well past the dogleg, since we felt comfortable throwing from that distance and didnt feel we would risk posing any distractions to the card ahead of us (it's not an uncommon hole to "play up" on, but depends on the group at the tee whether they feel comfortable doing so or not). However, even though we wanted to tee, our 4th was still up ahead out of sight with the players in the group ahead of us.

Since the majority of our group wanted to tee off, what is the proper procedure? Obviously it would seem fairly uncouth to tee and penalize our group member for being absent from the tee (allowing him his 30 seconds of course when it was his turn), not to mention lead to one hell of a blowup from him when he finally returned. But at the same time we didn't feel it was fair for him to walk away since it disrupted the flow of play.

What would people here do, and if there WAS a penalty to be assessed what is the appropriate response? I tried searching the rules but couldn't find anything that closely covered the situation. Thanks!

Since it's not absolutely clear in the rules whether it's OK to tee off on a hole before the previous group has completed the hole, the player in your group who went ahead with the group in front of you wasn't totally out of line to do so. On the other hand, if your group felt it was OK to initiate teeing off because it was appropriate on this hole to do so before the previous group finished, then it would seem the fair thing to do might be to simply warn this player with a courtesy violation for going ahead and not being ready to tee when the time was 'right' but not absolutely right. So, the player doesn't get a penalty unless he does it again, which presumably he wouldn't.

My advice in this example is that common sense and courtesy should override any strict rule reading. If you all feel "compelled" to throw, my advice is to throw and keep repeating "29" until the guy gets back and can tee. (This happens all the time when someone stops to "relieve" themselves between holes.) Noone is hurt. Noone has gained any real advantage. All should be happy.

ps. I'd also semi-politely tell the guy to keep his head in the game.

Questions:

1) How long was it from the point at which your group felt it was clear to tee off and when this group member returned?
2) If he was not the first person off of the tee in your group could someone in your group have teed off without distraction to the group in front of you or risk of injury to the group member who walked ahead?

I�ve copied a few rules I think might apply below.

801.02 ORDER OF PLAY
A. Teeing order on the first teeing area is determined by the order in which the scorecards were filled out or by the order the players were listed or arranged on the scoreboard.

E. Throwing out of turn shall be considered a courtesy violation. See 801.01F

801.03 EXCESSIVE TIME
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

B. A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

803.00 GENERAL
E. Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

801.01 COURTESY
A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present. Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure compliance with the rules.

C. Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.

F. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05.

i agree about common sense and courtesy, which is why we did nothing at the time, but i also feel that it's a two way street when it comes to courtesy. to answer nick's question, we waited nearly 5 minutes for the individual to finally come back to the tee - 5 minutes we could have used playing down the fairway and expediting the tournament. The main problem was it wasn't even like a situation where someone says "hey im gonna water a tree over here in the woods, be right back" or "does anyone mind if i stop by my car since we're near the parking lot?" He just left down the fairway. This was also an individual who a "courtesy" nazi and would constantly hush people while he was driving (once at a group of quietly talking players who were almost 100 feet away near the pin on the hole BEHIND us and were in no way being disruptive) who also nearly snapped a tree branch in half pushing it back to take a putting stance when he had a perfectly viable legal stance had he stepped off his mini the other direction - but those incidents are besides the point here).

I guess a warning would have been the proper course of action, but I wasn't sure if we all had decided to throw and given him a fair 30 seconds (or more) for his tee shot if that would have trumped a courtesy violation on a par+4 or any other such ruling. Again, not that I would have WANTED to do so given the ensuing explosion when he finally came back, but in my opinion the way he just walked off and then held up our group's play seemed that there might be some sort of rule that could apply other than courtesy violation.

One note:

Par + 4 is not possible anywhere except for the first hole of a round.

All of the applicable rules end up with courtesy violations (warnings). No strokes.

It seems to me the easiest solution would have been for one or more of the group to walk down the fairway, find the absent player and tell him the group was ready to tee off.

It seems to me the easiest solution would have been for one or more of the group to walk down the fairway, find the absent player and tell him the group was ready to tee off.



Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing as I was reading the post. Or walk partway down and say, "Dude, can you spot while you're there? We are gonna tee off."

Then I would put some rocks in his bag, just to make up for the inconvenience. :D

Or you could have called him on his cell phone. He would have been warned for a courtesy violation for his phone ringing. Then when he got back you could do as Chuck recommended and give him his 2nd courtesy violation. At this point you could penalize him a throw (not stroke) for 2 courtesy violations. :D

play the hole give him a 7 and than ask which card he wants to play on?

play the hole give him a 7 and than ask which card he wants to play on?



Someone correctly mentioned that par plus strokes is only for the first hole of the event; thereafter not playing or missing a hole represents withdrawal from the event.

Otherwise known as "DNF".

So you could tell the guy to go have a cold one and kick back, not that he had a 7.

I agree with the folks here that advise going and getting his arz first. If an attempt is made to inform him that the group is ready and he is nowhere to be found, well, offer him your chair and a cold one and tell him you are very sorry HE put you in such an uncomfortable position...

One note:

Par + 4 is not possible anywhere except for the first hole of a round.

All of the applicable rules end up with courtesy violations (warnings). No strokes.

one correction: par + 4 is possible on as many holes as the players misses due to being late for a round. not just the first hole of the round.

gary, i'm used to you being wrong ;) but nick, you have shattered my illusions by agreeing with gary! :D

804.02 B. : Staggered Starts (rounds where groups start one after another on a certain hole): The player shall start at the time announced by the director. Players may practice until their group prepares to tee off provided their practice does not distract players on the course. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. [b]If the player has not thrown by then, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent tee offs for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified.




...subsequently, etc.

gary, i'm used to you being wrong.

I'm never wrong!

Though sometimes I do misunderstand the question. :cool:

Par + 4 is not possible anywhere except for the first hole of a round.

Close, but not quite correct. Par plus 4 for every hole missed at the start of the round:

[QUOTE]
804.02 Beginning Play
A. Shotgun Starts (rounds where several groups start simultaneously): At a scheduled time, scorecard(s) shall be distributed to the player listed first on each hole. After the cards have been distributed, groups shall be given adequate time to reach their assigned teeing areas. A loud noisemaker, such as an air horn, shall be used to indicate that there are two minutes remaining until tee off. This signal shall be a series of short blasts. At this time, players are to end practice and all practice shots and move promptly to their teeing areas. A throw by a player between the two minute signal and the start of the round shall receive a warning if observed by two or more players or an official. After being warned, subsequent throws by the player during this period, if observed by two or more players or an official, shall result in one penalty throw added to the player's score, regardless of the number of throws. An extended blast of the noisemaker begins the round and signals the scorekeepers to call the throwing orders. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. <font color="red">This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent.</font> No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified.

B. Staggered Starts (rounds where groups start one after another on a certain hole): The player shall start at the time announced by the director. Players may practice until their group prepares to tee off provided their practice does not distract players on the course. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown by then, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. <font color="red">This procedure continues on any subsequent tee offs for which a player is absent.</font> No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

You know what I meant.

Par + 4 can not be given to a player that misses a hole in the middle of the round.

Par + 4 is only possible at the start of a round. It is not exclusive to the first hole missed, but is limited to those holes missed in succession at the start of a round.

In the middle of a round, it's an automatic DQ for missing a hole?

This is a slight tangent, but I am curious about this.

Hypothetical situation:

Bruce, Jon, Dan and Brett are playing in a sanctioned event on the same card. On their third hole of play Brett gets stung by a bee. Brett knows he's severely allergic to bees and he goes straight to his car to give himself a shot. Brett is a tough guy so he goes right back out to the course to finish the round. Bruce, Dan and I aren't going to let Brett's bee sting keep us from playing disc golf. We're not going to DNF because he got stung. So we play on while he goes to his car. Upon his return to the course he finds that we have played one complete hole during his absense. Does he get par plus 4 for the hole he missed? Is he DQ'd? Does the TD have any right to any leeway in his call?

This is a slight tangent, but I am curious about this.

Hypothetical situation:

Bruce, Jon, Dan and Brett are playing in a sanctioned event on the same card. On their third hole of play Brett gets stung by a bee. Brett knows he's severely allergic to bees and he goes straight to his car to give himself a shot. Brett is a tough guy so he goes right back out to the course to finish the round. Bruce, Dan and I aren't going to let Brett's bee sting keep us from playing disc golf. We're not going to DNF because he got stung. So we play on while he goes to his car. Upon his return to the course he finds that we have played one complete hole during his absense. Does he get par plus 4 for the hole he missed? Is he DQ'd? Does the TD have any right to any leeway in his call?



Hold on, hold on: who did we leave in charge of running this tournament, Maddisen?

This is a slight tangent, but I am curious about this.

Hypothetical situation:

Bruce, Jon, Dan and Brett are playing in a sanctioned event on the same card. On their third hole of play Brett gets stung by a bee. Brett knows he's severely allergic to bees and he goes straight to his car to give himself a shot. Brett is a tough guy so he goes right back out to the course to finish the round. Bruce, Dan and I aren't going to let Brett's bee sting keep us from playing disc golf. We're not going to DNF because he got stung. So we play on while he goes to his car. Upon his return to the course he finds that we have played one complete hole during his absense. Does he get par plus 4 for the hole he missed? Is he DQ'd? Does the TD have any right to any leeway in his call?



Hold on, hold on: who did we leave in charge of running this tournament, Maddisen?



We were playing one of Jim's events in this hypothetical situation. That's why we were all on the same card. ;)

In the middle of a round, it's an automatic DQ for missing a hole?

No. A TD may, at her discretion, DQ a player who fails to play or to hole out on any hole, but DQ is not automatic (see 803.12.A).

The question is: if the TDs discretion is not a DQ, what options are there?

I can't find anything in the rules that applies to a missed hole. Say a group flat out misses one, or somebody runs for the bee-kit and misses 3 holes. If you are the TD and want to let the players continue, how do you proceed?

I think "par plus 4" is the closest thing, and I would use that in the case of the bee-sting person missing a couple of holes. It's the closest thing to the situation in the rule book, and it passes the "seems fair" test.

If you miss a hole because you ran across the street to buy a beer....well, you're out. :) Bee sting? Explosive diarrhea? Par plus 4.

1. The group can't reach a majority decision about how to handle the situation (803.00.C-1).
2. The group can't find an official in the immediate vicinity to rule on how to continue so the group stands aside and lets other cards play through (803.00.C-2).
3. The stung player returns to the group before an official arrives, so the problem is removed, and the group finishes out the course.

802.01.D allows other groups to play through when the card in front is standing aside awaiting a ruling or decision.

The question is: if the TDs discretion is not a DQ, what options are there?

I can't find anything in the rules that applies to a missed hole. Say a group flat out misses one, or somebody runs for the bee-kit and misses 3 holes. If you are the TD and want to let the players continue, how do you proceed?

I think "par plus 4" is the closest thing, and I would use that in the case of the bee-sting person missing a couple of holes. It's the closest thing to the situation in the rule book, and it passes the "seems fair" test.

If you miss a hole because you ran across the street to buy a beer....well, you're out. :) Bee sting? Explosive diarrhea? Par plus 4.



I'm thinking that if I can find an official who is not playing in the division in which the guy got stung by the bee, and that official was willing to walk with him while he made up the hole after the round, then I'd be willing to let him make up the hole without penalty. I would do this because I can't find anything in the rules that says I can't and I think it is reasonable for the circumstances.

Bruce, Jon, Dan and Brett are playing in a sanctioned event on the same card. On their third hole of play Brett gets stung by a bee. Brett knows he's severely allergic to bees and he goes straight to his car to give himself a shot. Brett is a tough guy so he goes right back out to the course to finish the round. Bruce, Dan and I aren't going to let Brett's bee sting keep us from playing disc golf. We're not going to DNF because he got stung. So we play on while he goes to his car. Upon his return to the course he finds that we have played one complete hole during his absense. Does he get par plus 4 for the hole he missed? Is he DQ'd? Does the TD have any right to any leeway in his call?

FWIF, I posed a similar scenario to Carlton Howard at the Pro Dogwood Crosstown earlier this year, though not about the scoring. His response was that the TD may to decide whether to treat it as inadvertently or intentionally failed to hole out, so it does appear that the TD has some leeway.

Based on that, if the TD decides that Brett inadvertently failed to hole out, his score will be 2 penalty throws plus the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole (803.12.A(2)). (IMO, "penalty throws already taken" should include excessive time penalty throws for the time the player was away from the group.)

That being said, were I the TD, Brett better have a darn good explanation of why the heck, knowing he's severely allergic to bee stings, he wasn't carrying an antidote in his bag in the first place.

803.00 C(5) seems to have interesting implications for the bee-sting incident...


(5) Where a group's or official's decision is overturned on appeal, the official or director may, in the interest of fairness, allow the thrower's score to remain the same or adjust the thrower's score to reflect the correct interpretation of the rules. <font color="red">Only in a case where a replay is the most fair solution, at the discretion of the TD, should a hole or holes be replayed.</font>



If the group decided to play ahead while the stung person ran to the car for their kit, since they weren't sure of the correct course of action, rather than be assessed a 2-stroke penalty or par+4 or any other possible penalties (DNF) the stung player could file an appeal. If the TD feels that the group didn't intentionally leave the player behind and that the player certainly didnt avoid the hole intentionally, in the interest of fairness he has the power to allow that player to replay (play) the hole with no penalties.

His response was that the TD may to decide whether to treat it as inadvertently or intentionally failed to hole out, so it does appear that the TD has some leeway.



803.12 HOLING OUT
A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3)Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, missing a hole etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results.

OK. TD�s descretion: Inadvertent vs Intentional failing to hole out.

What about just to throw? 801.03 EXCESSIVE TIME ?

And if it is �Inadvertent� and the offending player didn�t throw a single throw then where are we? �shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.� So if you haven�t thrown �any throws� you get penalized less than if you were able to throw 2 throws and couldn�t wait any longer (if you know what I mean). That doesn�t make any sense.

This needs to be spelled out and it is like considering a 5 move ahead chess move.

Recently there was a case where an intermediate player picks up his putt, slaps the chains on the last hole of a two-day four round tournament, and goes home. He would have had 1st place, but instead DNF.

Even more recently, a different intermediate player at a different tournament picked up the putter, slapped the chains, was warned about incorrectly holing out before leaving the putting area and refused to correctly hole out. He was marked as DNF too.

OK I get the reaction to the prima donna whom arrogantly (or some other emotion) slaps the chains and refuses to hole out ...

but how about a little human compassion for the (hypothetical) guy with the bee sting? Give 'em a break!!!

Frighteningly familiar, only after getting cursed out by the intermediate player and he still not holing out, then lying to the TD, he was not DNFed or stroked. The PDGA didn't do much either. :confused:

I'm glad I read this thread, because I thought the rule was still in effect where you had to wait until the group ahead actually finished the hole, THEN you could tee off. In which case, Mr. Far Ahead is in the right. How long has this "done with the hole" rule been off the books?

Dunno. I don't think it was ever in the rules since I've been playing. Since about '96 or '97.

I'm glad I read this thread, because I thought the rule was still in effect where you had to wait until the group ahead actually finished the hole, THEN you could tee off. In which case, Mr. Far Ahead is in the right. How long has this "done with the hole" rule been off the books?



I thought that was always a non-rule rule.

The guiding principle and rule is "Courtesy". Do not distract or risk harm to other players. There has never, to my knowledge, been a rule against teeing while players are still on the hole.

Not as long as the fairway is clear of distractions......

It's always amazing to me, that as clear as our rules seem to be, there comes a situation so freakin' bizarre that I'm almost embarassed to admit (as a DGRZ wannabe) that I'm stumped as how to call it.

Real life incident from Texas States this year...

Player J plays first round. For round two, he glances at his starting hole sees it is #17, but gets confused about which course. Two minute warning sounds and he approaches a hole #17 tee box and proceeds to argue his way onto their card. He plays 7 holes with that card before he gets pointed to his correct card on the course "next-door" and so he wanders off to join the card he was supposed to have started round 2 with.

The card he was supposed to start with had (correctly) marked down scores of 7 for the holes he had missed. He joined up with them and finished the round.

So here is the question: How do you penalize this error? Do the strokes he actually threw when playing with the incorrect card count? Do you simply let it stand as seven holes with a score of par+4 for each of the holes he missed on his correct card?

Only you Larrry could come up with this one and it's real :eek: :cool:

Yeah...:D Thanks dog! :D

I wanna let it sit out here for a couple days of fun before I tell you how it was ruled.

The throws on the other course cannot be practice throws since he wouldn't have started his official round at that point if you decide to penalize him for being late to the first 7 holes. It's little different from a guy putting in the back yard before arriving late to start a round.

Yeah...:D Thanks dog! :D

I wanna let it sit out here for a couple days of fun before I tell you how it was ruled.



I'll let it sit a while too. Another related question is, were 7s really appropriate on every missed hole? Were some par 4s, 5s, or dreaded 2s?

You could treat it as late to the tee and give him par + 4 for every hole, in which case those other holes would seem to be practice holes before he started playing. But that is not what really happened.

What really happened is that for his first seven holes he threw from the wrong tee to the wrong basket and completed the holes that way. In which case 801.04(B)(1) and (3) would suggest that he gets his actual score plus two 2-throw penalties for every hole for those first seven holes.

Dang! I've never seen the zealots so quiet before! :D

We had 4 of us checking the rule book for about 15 minutes trying to figure out how to score the guy's round...

The card player J was supposed to have played on recorded scores of 7 for each of his missed holes. Technically speaking, this was incorrect. The score should be recorded as par plus 4 for each of the missed holes. He had one par 2 hole, one par 4 hole and the rest were arguably par 3s. The net result was scores of 7 for each of his missed holes anyway.

In reading the definition of a "practice throw" it indicates it is applicable for projecting and disc (mini markers are included) any range of distance more than 2 meters between the two minute warning and the end of the round. IMO - all of the throws completed while on the incorrect course could've been added to his score as "practice throws."

The misplayed hole stuff doesn't seem to apply to me because the player wasn't standing in the correct teeing area throwing toward the incorrect basket, nor was he teeing off from the incorrect tee throwing toward the correct basket.

I'll look it over and get back to you. It is unique. Did you ask the PDGA RC about it Larry?

Uh, isn't par plus 4 strokes penalty enough?

I played my final round with this guy and could empathize since I almost did the same thing. Last year at States Advanced Masters played Tourney, Powell, and East. This year we played Tourney, Wilmont and East. A lot of people assumed we would get the Powell in somewhere, most likely during the second round. A few of us actually headed that way and had to sprint back to the Wilmont. :o (O.K., so it was just us two and fortunately for me I didn't argue my way onto a card :D).

The player took it all in stride and concluded he should just have fun out there and made the best of his final round despite his high score. All of that aside, I like Chuck's interpretation - he didn't start his round until he got to the card.

On the other hand, what is the penalty if you start on a hole with no one behind you, the two-minute whistle goes and the round starts and you don't notice any of it and continue to practice (taking X number of strokes). How many strokes do you get? I have a guess but am curious. :D

I agree with Bruce. You have to read both (1) wrong tee and (3) wrong target to apply the proper penalty. Two stroke penalty for each misplayed hole.

And regarding the non-rule "don't throw until the group in front of you is finished"....it's a common sense rule. That's why not everyone follows it. Some golfers are simply not able to follow common sense rules.

I agree that par + 4 is penalty enough. I give him credit for finishing the tourney at all.

But say it had only been one hole and he was still in the running to place ...I think it could be argued under the current rules that his card should give him 7 for the hole he missed AND the TD could give him practice throw penalties for his actual stokes he played with the other card. Then his tournament would have been ruined by a single hole he didn't even play.

But I believe that is double jeopardy, too, and should not be allowed. Maybe it would be easier for the RC to discuss double jeopardy scenarios than trying to invent rules to cover every possible infraction.

By the way, someone on my card ALMOST did the same thing. He realized his mistake only because he was an old man bagger, not in the bloom of his youth like the rest of the players at the wrong hole. It was quite entertaining to watch him almost have a heart attack sprinting for our tee, dragging his cart, as we sympathetically chanted "29..29..29..29" :D

Would that have been the first rule-associated fatality at a PDGA event?

Lyle, you beat me to the punch!

My primary concern is that his round score doesn't get in his rating. I'll have to check whether the 999 code negates scores for all rounds after that or if the 999 just refers to that round and all others in the event can get rated.

It seems that the only determination here is whether the player's round started when the round started. If the player is not on the correct course at the start, then the the par+4 penalty is like a phantom player generating a score for him until he shows up. It almost makes no difference where this player is or what they're doing before they catch up to their group during the round.

If the player actually started on the correct course in the wrong group, which occasionally happens, I would give the player a 2-throw penalty for playing in the wrong group as a courtesy violation. In this case, since the player was messing with the group he played with on the wrong course, I would likely consider adding a 2-throw penalty as a courtesy violation in addition to the par+4s.

It was quite entertaining to watch him almost have a heart attack sprinting for our tee, dragging his cart, as we sympathetically chanted "29..29..29..29"




Sympathetic my rear-end. They were laughing so hard I was thinking I might take out half my competition with one massive multiple heart attack. :D

Gotta love playing with the old guys, no one takes anything too seriously. Jerry, Paul, Mike, Jimbo, Steve, Pat, Lloyd, John and others all make playing in this class a lot of fun.

lol, now thats funny shtuff.....

The misplayed hole stuff doesn't seem to apply to me because the player wasn't standing in the correct teeing area throwing toward the incorrect basket, nor was he teeing off from the incorrect tee throwing toward the correct basket.

I see your point. The rules says, "...for a given hole..." The tee for Hole 1 West Course would not be a tee for Hole 1 East Course. Ditto the basket for Hole 1 West Course. Par + 4 for each hole plus a big pile of practice throws is the better answer.

Well, it's certainly the higher penalty available, regardless of which rule is more applicable. Perhaps an added section to one or the other (801.04 or 804.02) should address a player who plays the wrong course.

Par + 4 for each hole plus a big pile of practice throws is the better answer.



Can't we cram some strokes in there for throwing from the wrong lie also? I mean, the guy has to learn the importance of rules, right. :confused:

I say there should be a double jeopardy clause that keeps the penalty to a single violation.

I'll take, "what is piling on? for 500, Alex"

Applying the rules accurately is not piling on.

Correct, what I'm saying is that double jeopardy is overkill and
Maybe it would be easier for the RC to discuss double jeopardy scenarios than trying to invent rules to cover every possible infraction.

Actually,

If you asked the guy in question, he wouldn't care and might offer you a beer. :D

What is the goal of a penalty? To keep the game fair. Each of the rules in question here is meant to keep things fair. There is no doubt that the player would not want to take advantage and anyone who screws up this badly is likely to admit they blew it and say stick me on the bottom slot and let me have some fun.

The scores aren't going to affect the guys rating, way too low. So what's the point? Intellectual exercize? Mike is right, there needs to be some kind of an open ended rule for these kinds of misplays that can be used at the TDs discretion. If you royally screw up you get X number of strokes now go play and have some fun. Maybe give the guy a DNF for that round and score his other rounds.

Applying the rules accurately is not piling on.



is that what is going on here? I need to create a support group for the DGRZs. In the spirit of compassion for those who can't find the right course, I will name it CARE (Commonsense Application of Rules Everywhere). The first meeting will cover "when a man is already beat senseless and your guidance is unclear, err on the side of compassion."

Applying the rules accurately is not piling on.



is that what is going on here? I need to create a support group for the DGRZs. In the spirit of compassion for those who can't find the right course, I will name it CARE (Commonsense Application of Rules Everywhere). The first meeting will cover "when a man is already beat senseless and your guidance is unclear, err on the side of compassion."




No one forced him not to ask for help.

Tony, the meetings are held the 3rd of every month. :D

The first meeting will cover "when a man is already beat senseless and your guidance is unclear, err on the side of compassion."


That approach allows someone who is having a melt-down round to still take last cash/merch over someone else who took every stroke they earned.

Just because the guy on your card just went 8-4-5-5 doesn't mean you should look the other way and "let him slide because he's having an 'orrible round" on the next OB he throws.

Even if it isn't the cash/merch-line, this might be the tourney where some other guy (like Atwood) who always finishes DFL was going to actually beat someone. Is it fair to Atwood if your bad round boy beats him because he didn't collect all his earned strokes?

At what point do you stop penalizing someone?
We don't penalize a throw into the lake with both OB and lost disc strokes.

Isn't this is the same principle?

as much as I'd like to see Atwood beat someone...... ;)

At what point do you stop penalizing someone?
We don't penalize a throw into the lake with both OB and lost disc strokes.

Isn't this is the same principle?



Practice throws are a little different. You can have a disc stuck in a tree 5 meters, and if you throw discs at it to knock it down you can get a 2 meter penalty plus all those practice throws. That is not double jeopardy.

But I wasn't talking about the specific "wrong course" case in my last post. (That does seem to double jeopardy to get par+4s and practice strokes), I was talking about the "don't kick him when he's down" mentality. It is getting confusing now because we are mixing topics.