I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet, but maybe very few people know about Disc Golf United (DGU).

I'm not sure how much info about this is readily available, but it seems quite possible that DGU will bring about change to the current PDGA system sooner than the PDGA will. While DGU appears to be configured more for league play than tournament play, and isn't a direct competitor, what's to stop them from having 'League Tournaments'?

Is a player rating going to be necessary if you already have a DGU handicap?

Does the DGU handicap system use player ratings in it's calculation?

Should player ratings be based on the DGU handicap system?

Maybe most important of all, will anyone other than the top 1% of 'Pros' need the PDGA if they can get what they need (competition among peers, a handicap to compare themselves to peers, a structured play environment) from DGU?

It's interesting that the DGU website appears to have a link to the PDGA site only for info on the rules of play. If there's another one, I didn't see it.

Does the DGU handicap system use player ratings in it's calculation?



Yes.

Interesting, where is Disc Golf United's hq ?
Who is behind the curtain :confused:

Looks like an Innova gig. There's a pic of a basket in the logo that looks suspiciously like a Discatcher, there's a link to the EDGE program, they are quite active in the Charlotte/ Rock Hill area (of their 137 registered players, 14 are Charlotte/surrounding area, 10 are Rock Hill), and 2 of their directors just happen to be Harold Duvall and Dave Dunipace.

WHOIS record for discgolfunited.com

Registrant:
Innova Disc Golf
2850 Commerce Drive.
Rock Hill, SC 29732
United States of America

Does the DGU handicap system use player ratings in it's calculation?



Yes.



Can you elaborate on this one Nick? Do they pull the ratings off the PDGA site or something? Can they do that?

Dear Dan �

Disc Golf United (DGU) is a tool to help local disc golf promoters grow disc golf participation at the grass roots level. The impetus came to me when my cousin-in-law described the handicapping system he developed that transformed the rodeo sport of team roping. Dudes are now coming out of the woodwork and investing in 4-horse trailers and F-350�s to take up team roping because they know that they can not only compete with, but win against, the best. Hopefully, DGU will allow local disc golf promoters to experience the same surge in competitors.

Like handicapping systems for team roping and other sports, DGU brings players of different skill levels together and allows them to compete in a fair way. Hence the name and slogan: Disc Golf United � The Fairway To Play.

Disc golf handicapping has been implemented successfully at the local level for some time. DGU expands on this success by creating a web-based system that is personal, transportable, and adaptable.

� Personal � DGU allows disc golfers to track their scores and develop a personal handicap. Personal handicaps can be used to gauge improvement or compete informally against your buddies.
� Transportable � DGU Official handicaps can be used at different leagues or on different courses. DGU adjusts the handicap according to the challenge of the course
� Adaptable � DGU handicaps can be used on different course configurations for the same course. This provides fairer play when the course set up varies.

The mathematical underpinnings for DGU are monitored by Chuck Kennedy. Steve Hackenberg oversees the DGU website development and implementations. Suzette Simons (Discette) develops the materials needed by the local league directors.

While we can convert a PDGA player rating into a DGU handicap factor, DGU does not use player ratings in its calculations. DGU developed a handicapping methodology independent of ratings since non-pdga members are the primary focus. But if golf is any indication, DGU should be one of the best membership generators for the PDGA when it becomes widely adopted.

For more information feel free to ask questions here, e-mail me directly, or check out the website at www.discgolfunited.com. (http://www.discgolfunited.com.)

Take care,

Harold

Harold,
Thank you for your response and clarification. I would think the numbers that can be generated from regular league play for handicaps would be potentially even more accurate than player ratings in determining exactly where a player's skills are in relation to his or her peers, which is a good thing. It also seems to have more benefit for the new/less skilled players, which is also a good thing (IMO).

I guess there is a potential down the road for the PDGA to use either a player's rating (if they are a PDGA member) or DGU handicap (if not) for tournament grouping/seeding as well.

I think it corresponds well to how bowling has the PBA for the Pro tour and ABC for league play. The two don't necessarily compete, but complement each other on different levels.

The notion of a handicap league seems strange to me, but that is because the DG landscape in my area (New York) is quite barren. I'd love to be able to play in a regular league someday, so hopefully my attempts at getting a course closer than an hour away will pan out eventually.

Does the DGU handicap system use player ratings in it's calculation?



Yes.



This answer is not 100% accurate as Harold's post shows. It would be more accurate to say that the DGU Handicaps are related to PDGA Player Ratings rather than "are used for".

My apologies to anyone who was confused by my answer.

Does the DGU handicap system use player ratings in it's calculation?



Yes.



This answer is not 100% accurate as Harold's post shows. It would be more accurate to say that the DGU Handicaps are related to PDGA Player Ratings rather than "are used for".

My apologies to anyone who was confused by my answer.



Well, based on what Harold said, it would be more accurate to say 'no'.

We shall see shan't we?

While we can convert a PDGA player rating into a DGU handicap factor, DGU does not use player ratings in its calculations. DGU developed a handicapping methodology independent of ratings since non-pdga members are the primary focus.



Nick, did you grow up in a foreign country and learn English as a second language?

Dan and Jeff,

What is your point? They are "related". Not the same, but very closely related (using the same formulas and basic set up for tracking and storing data and calculating averages, and one can easily be converted to the other).

"No" would have been actually more misleading and untruthful than "yes". But as I have clarified, the best answer is the one Harold provided, which comes down to them being closely related but seperate.

You guys crack me up.
nk

Nick, what you are saying does not jibe with what Harold said at all. Is there something I'm missing? Or is it just because Chuck is developing it that you are saying it (DGU) is using the ratings formula?

All ways of measuring a player's skill are going to emerge from doing something with a player's actual scores. No systems I know would use their height, weight, gender or GPS coordinates to determine their skill level. At the basic level, if DG courses were like bowling alleys, the most direct way of comparing skill levels of different players would be their scoring average, which of course, is what they do for bowling.

However, no DG courses are the same. Thus, we have to find a way to adjust each score to some common reference so they can be averaged. This common reference is now called the SSA which can be calculated two ways. The PDGA Ratings use the dynamic way which calculates the SSA from the actual scores of players who have established ratings. The DGU handicap factors use the static method to determine SSA based on course length and a challenge factor whose primary component is foliage. That is the only way to determine SSA for DGU handicaps when many times there's only one round being calculated for a person's personal DGU handicap factor tracking.

A player's skill level can be presented several ways. Using an adjusted scoring average could have been chosen for the PDGA ratings but would likely have been more confusing than the way we chose. Barry Schultz might have a 46.13 index and Climo a 46.59 on a basis of 18 holes on an SSA 50 course. But then these would need to be adjusted for different hole counts and SSAs.

Since PDGA skill levels were being determined to help sort players into different skill brackets, I thought converting the scoring average into a number that would be higher or lower than 1000 for the Scratch value would be a cool and easy way to present the information for PDGA Player Ratings. It eliminates decimals and negative numbers which would be part of scoring averages or handicaps. It's also a nod to baseball where batting a thousand in a game would be great day.

In the case of DGU, the whole focus of the service is to provide a way so everyone of all skills can play together in reasonably fair competition. Handicaps is the way to do that. Innova had been familiar with my league handicapping system which has been available online and used all over the country since I developed it in 1990. So, all we're doing with DGU is taking player's scores in DGU leagues or their recreational rounds and presenting them as handicap values.

People claim all of the time that they shoot better in their rec and league rounds than they do in PDGA events (surprise, surprise!). I guess now they'll be able to find out how much different they are if they track their rec and/or league scores with DGU and get a handicap. Then, they can see how close it is to their PDGA rating, if they have one, based on a different set of scores.

Very cool, Chuck! I remember a while back you had posted something about calculating course 'pars' based on hole length/foliage/elevation and wondered what happened to that.

I guess the other advantage is league play is less likely to use one-off layouts than tournaments tend to have. Theoretically, the DGU handicap would be a truer representation of skill level than a tourney-based rating.

I remember a while back you had posted something about calculating course 'pars' based on hole length/foliage/elevation and wondered what happened to that.




I posted the chart on the Different Layouts thread the other day.

Without comment I offer this to the conversation:

From the website in question:


The terms "Disc Golf United", "DGU", "Handicap Factor" "Course Locator", " DGU Handicap", "DGU Handicap Service" "DGU Handicap System", "Universal Disc Golf Handicap", "Scratch Scoring Average" "DGU SSA" "DGU Course Locator", "Personal Handicap Factor", "League Handicap Factor", "Official DGU League", "Official DGU Handicap", and "DGU Event" are trademarks and service marks of DGU which has the sole right to authorize and license the use of these marks by others.

there's prolly nothing wrong with trying to trade- or service-mark something in the form "DGU nnnnnn", but trying to mark "Course Locator", well, makes me wanna build a course locator on my website.

if they Really have that many trademarks and/or servicemarks, then they are spending their on something other than the good of the sport. a real, enforceable trademark costs a least $750 the last time i did one.

Are you sure you're not talking about a Patent? I thought you could legitimately trademark just about anything original, and there was no cost. The cost comes from trying to enforce it in court.

As a CPA I am not an expert in intellectual property law, but from what I have been told:

Trademark and service mark rights flow from the creation and usage of the marks. The owner of the marks has an affirmative duty to notify others. This is what we have tried to do with the notice that Nick provided above.

The marks can be improved or perfected by registration at the state level or various federal registries maintained by the United States Patent and Trademark Office. As Sandalman points out, this can become an expensive proposition. We have not done this yet because we want to use our resources to focus on DGU�s primary mission of promoting disc golf.

Jim rightly warns that things get really costly when marks are litigated. Generally everyone loses but the lawyers. One of the purposes of our trademark notice is to avoid litigation.

But the real purpose is much more important. Belief and trust are prerequisites for all handicapped play, whether it�s bowling, pool, team roping, or golf. When players see the various DGU marks, we want them to know that they can trust the results and believe confidently in the integrity of the DGU service.

Take care,

Harold

Are you sure you're not talking about a Patent? I thought you could legitimately trademark just about anything original, and there was no cost. The cost comes from trying to enforce it in court.

patents are for devices and processes. trade and service marks are for words, phrases, logos, etc. harold's correct in that to be completely enforceable a mark must in use. even if registered, if a mark is not used it can be considered abondoned and therefore fair game. he also correct about notifying others. at a minimum that means declaring the mark where it is usedto be sure though, you must also register the mark. to register successfully, you usually need to prove no one else has any claim to the mark, and thats where the lawyers come in. it is possible to do the research without a lawyer, but the cost and lack of recourse usually outweighs the price of the lawyer.

you can copyright something just by saying (writing) that it is copyrighted. thats why all the websites ya go to have a copyright notice. that form of copyrighting is free, at least until you have to defend it. then the lawyers win again!

it will nice to see if the DGU concept catches on. it certainly could add a nuance to both local play and matches with outoftowners. i wonder if the dg world is ready for something this organized?