Can anyone tell me about the Ontario Rocs?

Same as the Classic Roc? Super? New mold?

discreview.com doesn't have any reviews yet. <font color="brown"> </font>

I have an orange classic roc that was made in Ontario, but I don't know what that means. What it means to me is a small diameter low profile disc that flies straight with very little fade. I really like it. Oh, it's dx plastic.

Ontarios were molded after San Marinos and before Ranchos. They are more/less the same mold as the large diameter Roc you would throw today. They are typically less stable than Ranchos Rocs when new.

Ontario rocs were the runs of rocs from '94 until about '98 I think. They are characterized by having Ontario listed on the bottom of the flight plate. They are a stiffer version of the DX plastic than is available now but the down side is that most of the runs are more domey. IMHO I'd say these were actually some of the worst rocs produced except for a couple of the earlier runs of Ontarios.

I believe that "Classic Rocs" are more like the original Wings and Rings roc of old. They are similar to the XD in size.

Super Rocs are Rocs made with "super" plastic. The plastic used effects the shape is come of the mold with. The first "Super Roc" was made a few years back for a short period of time. They are making them again as fund raisers for Iowa Worlds. They do fly nice, IMHO.

I have an '89 Ontario glo Roc.

Even beat, I'd say it's probably the straightest of the Rocs that I've thrown. It completes it flight almost perfectly flat.

I have an orange classic roc that was made in Ontario, but I don't know what that means. What it means to me is a small diameter low profile disc that flies straight with very little fade. I really like it. Oh, it's dx plastic.

An "Ontario" Roc comes from a mold made when Innova was located in Ontario, CA (Cali, not Canada).

The original Roc (the "Wings-n-Rings") was the predecessor of the Classic Roc. As Anita said, it was similar in diameter to the XD.

The first "Big Roc" (the current model, so named because of its larger diameter vis a vis the "Wings-n-Rings" Roc) was called "San Marino" after the mold marking which indicates where Innova was located when the mold was made.

When Innova moved its operations to Ontario, the mold markings (on some molds) were changed to reflect the new location. Rocs from those molds are "Ontario" Rocs.

When Innova relocated to its current location in Rancho Cucamonga, the Roc was retooled slightly for increased stability (sharper nose). Most Rocs bearing the "Rancho Cucamonga" mold marking are from the retooled mold. (Exceptions include, but may not be limited to, the 8x and 10x KCs, which are a "recapitulation" (Dave D's (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=179263&Searchpage=1&Main=42323&Search=true&#Post179263) term) of the Ontario mold.)

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Note: information in the summary above was gleaned from posts to the DISCussion board by Dave Dunipace, which were found by searching for the terms "Ontario," "San Marino," "Rancho Cucamonga," and "Mold."

I have an orange classic roc that was made in Ontario, but I don't know what that means. What it means to me is a small diameter low profile disc that flies straight with very little fade. I really like it. Oh, it's dx plastic.

An "Ontario" Roc comes from a mold made when Innova was located in Ontario, CA (Cali, not Canada).

The original Roc (the "Wings-n-Rings") was the predecessor of the Classic Roc. As Anita said, it was similar in diameter to the XD.

The first "Big Roc" (the current model, so named because of its larger diameter vis a vis the "Wings-n-Rings" Roc) was called "San Marino" after the mold marking which indicates where Innova was located when the mold was made.

When Innova moved its operations to Ontario, the mold markings (on some molds) were changed to reflect the new location. Rocs from those molds are "Ontario" Rocs.

When Innova relocated to its current location in Rancho Cucamonga, the Roc was retooled slightly for increased stability (sharper nose). Most Rocs bearing the "Rancho Cucamonga" mold marking are from the retooled mold. (Exceptions include, but may not be limited to, the 8x and 10x KCs, which are a "recapitulation" (Dave D's (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=179263&Searchpage=1&Main=42323&Search=true&#Post179263) term) of the Ontario mold.)

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Note: information in the summary above was gleaned from posts to the DISCussion board by Dave Dunipace, which were found by searching for the terms "Ontario," "San Marino," "Rancho Cucamonga," and "Mold."



All 3 of the "big Rocs" fly differently but equally good. The Sanny is the least stable, followed by the Ontario, and the Rancho is a stable, power Roc.

Krevo, hate to burst your bubble but that glow you have isnt from '89. At least not if it says Ontario on the back. That stamp first came out in '89 and was put on San Marino rocs. It was also put on Ontario and some Rancho rocs. Its like the big stamp vipers. All the stamps say, "Innova 1991" but most of those vipers w/ that stamp arent from 1991.

I've never gravitated to Rocs, but in my never ending quest for the midrange I like, I received a MS today in a trade and as a bonus i was given a used San Marino Roc bought at a garage sale. I really like this disc. (I also recently discovered i like Champ. Cobras which i've heard fly somewhat like a beat Roc (the one i have was already broken in when i got it).

Are the Rancho Rocs the only ones made presently? (I like less stable). Also, are the USDGC Rocs -- though candy -- less stable? And are all the CFR Rocs the less stable versions? (if not -- how do i make sure i get the knid i want?).

Finally, has Innova ever considered re-issuing the San Marino Roc (is the mold still available)? I'd ask Dave but at this stage this is more like my quest for a "Roc guide for Dummies" :D

Extrapolating from Dave's responses elsewhere on the board:


Are the Rancho Rocs the only ones made presently? (I like less stable).

Ranchos are the only Rocs currently in regular production. There are, however, at least two (possibly three) Rancho mold variants: blunt nose, not blunt, and a variant of the blunt (which was used primarily for the 8x). (Compare the nose of a DX Rancho with a 10x to see the difference: the 10x is blunt.) Blunter nose Rocs are straighter with less overstable fade; sharper (not blunt) nose are more overstable. (There are nine other possible variations, including Ontario variations, not currently in use.)


Also, are the USDGC Rocs -- though candy -- less stable? And are all the CFR Rocs the less stable versions? (if not -- how do i make sure i get the knid i want?).

For the most part, USDGC Rocs are more overstable than their DX and KC counterparts. Different molds have been used in different years: the '01 CE is sharper nose, '02s are regular blunt; '03s are 8x variant, '04s are blunt, the "pre-release" run of 1000 '05s are a remake of the Ontario mold, as are the SBs; don't know the story on the regular '05s since I don't have one to check, but since the SBs were advertised as straighter than the regular '05s, my guess is they're not blunt.

In terms of under/overstability, the '02s are generally agreed to be the least overstable (compared to the '01s and '04 glos, they're flippy), while the '01s almost universally held to be the most overstable Roc ever. If you're looking for less stable CE/CFR Rocs, you should probably stick with the '02s, '05 SBs, or '05 pre-releases.


Finally, has Innova ever considered re-issuing the San Marino Roc (is the mold still available)?

I seem to recall Dave stating that the San Marino and Ontario molds were the same, with the mold markings updated, but don't quote me on that.. Even if the mold were still available, though, new discs from the mold would likely not fly similarly to the original Sannys due to differences in the plastic formula. The original plastic formula is no longer available.

Thanks Felix, I have dial-up and I don't know much about Rocs. a few more questions: Were the Classic Rocs basicly a re-issue of the original Roc?

Is a Millenium Aurora MS a lot like a San Marino Roc without a bead?

Finally is the beat San Marino I have at all rare? It has a skull figure with crossbones and a disc in each hand and says Atlanta IFO in a circle around the picture. It flies nice.

I'm by no means an expert on Rocs and have learned quite a bit reading this thread. I have been told the special blend Rocs in the latest release of USDGC Rocs is supposed to be less stable than the others and a really straight flying disc. I have one but have not thrown it yet.
Does anyone know which mold the Ching Rocs are made from and how do they compare to the other molds. I have a couple Rocs from tourny's that are really flat and have been told they may be Ching Rocs.

All San Marino ROCs are rare. Some more than others. There should have been a limited run (50-100) IFO stamps.

Take a close look at that design Robj and let me know what you see!

Thanks Felix, I have dial-up and I don't know much about Rocs. a few more questions: Were the Classic Rocs basicly a re-issue of the original Roc?

Yes. The "Wings-'n'-Rings" (original) Roc was discontinued at one point, but brought back into production as the "Classic Roc" due to player demand. I believe that the Classic Roc mold is a remake, though.


Is a Millenium Aurora MS a lot like a San Marino Roc without a bead?

Depends on what you mean by "a lot like." The lower rim of the Sanny is decidedly more undercut than the nose of the MS. I think the MS's profile is closer to a Shark's�the difference being that the bottom rim of the MS is a contiunous sweep while the bottom half of the Shark's bottom rim is undercut�than to a Sanny's.


Finally is the beat San Marino I have at all rare? It has a skull figure with crossbones and a disc in each hand and says Atlanta IFO in a circle around the picture. It flies nice.

Nah, beat Sanny's ain't rare; now MINT Sannys, they's rare! :D

Sannys are rare in the sense that they ain't making no more and haven't for a long time, so the number available is limited and shrinking, but they're not nearly as rare as, e.g., proto Super Rocs, proto 8x Rocs, or clear ghost-stamped '01 CEs.

Obviously, the number of Sannys with the same hotstamp as yours will be a small subset of the number of Sannys made, so in that sense, it would be rare, though not necessraily more valuable, except perhaps to a collector, than other Sannys. :)

BTW, if you like the way Sannys fly, look around for a SE, aka, "Super," Roc (original, not re-release: the '04 and '05 Super Rocs are slower and massively more overstable by comparison). Only one word for them: BUTTAHHHHH!

"The lower rim of the Sanny is decidedly more undercut than the nose of the MS."

Sannys, Aunties, and Kookies; are those the accepted terms? :p

I'm by no means an expert on Rocs and have learned quite a bit reading this thread. I have been told the special blend Rocs in the latest release of USDGC Rocs is supposed to be less stable than the others and a really straight flying disc. I have one but have not thrown it yet.

Yes. The '05 SB Rocs are notably less overstable than other CE/CFR Rocs, with the possible exception of the '02s. (Note: less overstable than other CE/CFR Rocs, not necessarily less stable than DX, KC, Ontario, or Sanny!)


Does anyone know which mold the Ching Rocs are made from and how do they compare to the other molds. I have a couple Rocs from tourny's that are really flat and have been told they may be Ching Rocs.

"Ching! Roc" is simply a name applied to DX Rancho Rocs that have been hotstamped using a full-color hotstamping process invented and patented by Mike Holgate (owner/founder of Ching!). A serendipitous byproduct of the process is that discs subjected to the process come out flatter (and, consequently, more overstable) than discs stamped using the regular process. (That's true for all DX discs, not just Rocs.) As far as I have been able to discover, there was no attempt to limit the Ching! process to one particular Rancho mold variant: whatever variant was on hand when a order was being filled was what got stamped.

"The lower rim of the Sanny is decidedly more undercut than the nose of the MS."

that should be, "... than the lower rim of the MS."

Take a close look at that design Robj and let me know what you see!



a phallic symbol... LOL

Dan, i probably would've never noticed if you hadn't pointed it out.

Is a Millenium Aurora MS a lot like a San Marino Roc without a bead?

Depends on what you mean by "a lot like." The lower rim of the Sanny is decidedly more undercut than the [lower rim] of the MS. I think the MS's profile is closer to a Shark's�the difference being that the bottom rim of the MS is a contiunous sweep while the bottom half of the Shark's bottom rim is undercut�than to a Sanny's.

[/QUOTE]

<font color="blue"> How about in terms of flight? Do you have any observations you can share about the difference between an MS and a Sanny in terms of stability? Also, how does a Shark compare? </font>


Finally is the beat San Marino I have at all rare? It has a skull figure with crossbones and a disc in each hand and says Atlanta IFO in a circle around the picture. It flies nice.

Nah, beat Sanny's ain't rare; now MINT Sannys, they's rare! :D

[/QUOTE]
:D



Sannys are rare in the sense that they ain't making no more and haven't for a long time, so the number available is limited and shrinking, but they're not nearly as rare as, e.g., proto Super Rocs, proto 8x Rocs, or clear ghost-stamped '01 CEs.

Obviously, the number of Sannys with the same hotstamp as yours will be a small subset of the number of Sannys made, so in that sense, it would be rare, though not necessraily more valuable, except perhaps to a collector, than other Sannys. :)

BTW, if you like the way Sannys fly, look around for a SE, aka, "Super," Roc (original, not re-release: the '04 and '05 Super Rocs are slower and massively more overstable by comparison). Only one word for them: BUTTAHHHHH!



<font color="blue"> thanks Felix -- that's the kind of info i'm after. However, my income makes throwing expensive plastic impractical. I'm guessing SE SuperRocs aren't cheap. What's the most affordable not-so-stable Roc available -- in candy? (i tend to play very wooded courses, and believe it or not, i occasionally hit trees :D) Are 2005 SB's still being sold and are they $25 each -- or more? </font>

<font color="blue">How about in terms of flight? Do you have any observations you can share about the difference between an MS and a Sanny in terms of stability? Also, how does a Shark compare? </font>

Can't really comment on the similarities/differences between the MS and he Sanny because I haven't thrown the MS enough to get a good feel for its flight characteristics: the sharp bottom rim of the MS was forever ripping the calluses off my index and middle fingers so it was either quit using them or take two months off after using one for a round.

To me, Sharks are much more like DX Ranchos than Sannys, but YMMV.


<font color="blue">However, my income makes throwing expensive plastic impractical. I'm guessing SE SuperRocs aren't cheap.</font>

The curious thing about Super Rocs is that it seems that people either swear by them or swear at them, so prices can still be quite reasonable: in the past year, I've picked up three new, unthrown Super Rocs from a haters for $10 a piece. :)


<font color="blue">What's the most affordable not-so-stable Roc available -- in candy? (i tend to play very wooded courses, and believe it or not, i occasionally hit trees :D) Are 2005 SB's still being sold and are they $25 each -- or more?</font>

There might be some third party vendors selling SBs, but I believe ZoneDriven is sold out of everything but glo '05s and a few <170 X-outs. Can't imagine third party vendors would only be charging $25 for CFR Rocs, SB or not, though.

Unfortunately, the most affordable not-so-stable candy Big Roc is the '02 CE, because it's really the only not-so-overstable candy Roc out there. As an alternative to candy Big Rocs, consider the CFR Classic Roc: they're less overstable than candy Big Rocs, as well as more widely available so they're generally more affordable (~$20). '04 and '05 CFR Classic Rocs are stable enough to handle a pretty good tug without flipping over and going roller, but still fly like one expects a Classic Roc to fly.

I have Pro Classic Rocs and they are surprisingly slow speed stable. I use them (and Champion Stingrays for maximum turnover shots), but want something with a little more length. If i went with Sharks -- it would have to be Champion Sharks and i imagine they are more like stable Rocs than they are like Sanny's...

The Aurora MS (still need to trade for or buy a few more and a couple of QMS's) seems to fit the bill for me, but I would like to pick up a SB 05 or a not-so-stable SE SuperRoc should i luck into one of those in the "i hate 'em" camp. if you know anyone who might trade a SB 2005 candy Roc or a SE SuperRoc for a used red w/ purple Atlanta IFO stamp Sanny let me know :D

I haven't read this whole thread, but here's what I pulled out of the archives of Disc Golf Resources from the file on Innova discs:

Types of Rocs:
-Original Roc - �Wings & Rings�, named because of the logo,- flat XD style Roc, made in San Marino
-Classic San Marino Roc - original dome, made in San Marino
-Classic Ontario Roc - slightly more domey, made in Ontario
-New Classic Roc - The Classic Roc is still in limited production and will be available from time to time. It is now in the category of an all-around disc. The two closest discs to it are the XD (not quite as stable) and the Ching Sniper which is a little faster and a little more stable. (from Dave Dunipace)
The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario (Dave D., #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM)
-Proto KC Roc - it has the disc going through the Innova logo and reads "the Choice of Champions."
-After Proto KC Roc - Has a bar through it; it came just after the Proto KC Rocs.
-Original KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The first run KC Rocs have a bar going through the Innova logo and reads "Champion Discs."
-KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. (The number of Xs refers to the number of years that Climo is listed as World Champion. Eg.- 9 times = 9x.)
-Super Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
-Special Edition (SE) Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Special Edition (SE) Super Roc (178-180g) - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Champion Edition (CE) Roc - made for the USDGC. 2003 version is the blunter nose KC 8x mold
-Pro Roc (used to be the Super Roc). Available in SE plastic in 2004.
� All of the discs referred to by the city are not of the old style mold. The classic Roc was subsequently produced from the old original mold, or one like it, for those that craved the old disc. The "new" type of Roc has been produced with three different city names on the bottom, first San Marino, then Ontario, and now Rancho Cucamonga.
� The flat XD style Roc (sometimes referred to as the Wings & Rings Roc) and the original dome Roc were made in San Marino. Then came the slightly more domey Ontario Roc. Now Innova has gone back to the flatter dome a la
San Marino Roc, and they are stamped with Rancho Cucamonga and this includes all KC Rocs, Super Rocs, and
the ever sought after Original KC Rocs and Special Edition Rocs. Finally to further complicate things there are some San Marino Rocs (both XD style and domed style) that some refer to as "triple ring Rocs." Look at the under side and in the middle you will see 3 distinct rings.
� Different KC Rocs have different characteristics. The 8x are stable. The 9x are understable.

History of the different kinds of Rocs:

1) Original Roc 21.2 cm diameter - narrow rim, one of the first discs with a bead, and was basically a beaded version
of the XD. This disc was first released around 1987, and discontinued around 1992.

2) Classic Roc - was a re-release of the original mold and came out around 1995 (I think)

3) New mold Roc - which we have several variations of today - is a 21.7 cm disc and was first released in '88/89.
Basically they beefed up the rim of the original and made it significantly more stable.

3.1) San Marino Early runs were made in San Marino, CA (and are the most sought after - selling for $50+ on eBay). Early runs had the same "wings n rings" stamp as the original mold, and had just a little dome to the flight plate. �A couple runs in '91/92 were super flat and hard - the best rocs they ever made, IMO.�
� The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario. (Dave D.)

3.2) Ontario Manufacturing was moved to Ontario, CA and a new mold was produced around 1994/95. These runs tended to be just a little domier in general than most San Marino's - but were still awesome straight flyers.

3.3) Rancho Cucamonga Rocs. The Rancho Cucamonga Rocs were yet another version/mold of the same disc - and early runs had retained the shape of those early 90's runs of San Marino's Hard and Flat and very stable.

3.4) KC Rocs The onset of the KC plastic has produced a number of variations of the new style Roc (I think all Rancho mold's - with a slightly different plastic) I can't really speak to the quality or flight variations of the Ranchos/ or KC's as I haven't gotten through my stack of San Marino's yet

3.5) Pro (SE) Rocs in 2004. The Pro Roc should be available Mar 2004. The Pro Roc is overstable in tests. Pro Rocs were made from the standard DX Rancho mold, which is the more stable version. The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
See https://zonedriven.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/239

� the proto-Rancho and the proto KC Roc; there is a difference between the two. The proto-Rancho was made in heavier weights only and had an Innova choice of champions rainbow stamp, the disc came in white only and has a disc through the logo. The proto KC is similar but has an enormous nipple that actually indents the top of the disc (exactly like the 8 time KC Roc). The logo was also similar but there are differences there as well. The Innova stamp doesn't say choice of champions and is a bar through the logo and not a disc. (from Joyup Lee)

USDGC Rocs
2003 more stable than 2002. (Dave D., 3/5/03)

You get an A+ for your Roc Report :D

The problem with calling San Marino and Ontario Rocs "Classic San Marino" and "Classic Ontario" is that Wings-'n'-Rings Rocs also had "San Marino" in the mold marking and the current "Classic Roc" has "Ontario" in the mold markings, so it may not always be clear whether "Classic San Marino" and "Classic Ontario" refers to the Classic-style or "New"-style disc. In discussions where both are involved, Dave occasionally uses the terms "Classic" and "Big Roc" to distinguish between the two molds and avoid confusion.

When referring to "Classic"-style Rocs, my preference is refer to the original Rocs as "Wings-'n'-Rings" and to reserve "Classic Roc" for the re-release.

what mold is the '01 ce roc?

Rancho

Rancho

Not blunt (sharp) variant.

Rancho

Not blunt (sharp) variant.


oops. forgot that part :)