Every type of situation, advantages, disadvantages, thoughts, videos, and techniques for both. I'm mainly having problems with the Push Putt, I just can't figure out how to throw it for some reason, help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance

by push putt, do ya mean the the flipy looking putt that looks like a freethrow when ya do it...or a turbo putt? which also looks a little kooky :D

i think by push putt he's referring to the style where people hinge and unhinge their elbow and push the disc on a line towards the basket and by spin putt he means the underhand pitch style... i could be wrong though.

A Push Putt historically has been just that: pushed from the back of the disc. A turbo, butterfly, basketball, or classic index finger push were some of the main push putts. The two main putting styles are the pitch putt, which Climo and Schultz do well, or the fly (spin) putt, which Ron Russell and Cam Todd do well. A pitch is like a horseshoe throw as it starts low, and finishes high. The motion of the arm coming from low to high is the main force and hallmark. The fly putt is done relatively horizontal to the ground with a bent elbow extending toward the target with a good snap such that the disc is flying relatively straight and level to the target. The fly (spin) putt has hovering and rising potential, the pitch putt has none. The pitch putt generally is done with a little hyzer and a little nose down. The fly putt is usually done flat (left to right), or slightly turn over ala Ron Russell, with a little nose up.

If you take Dave's definition of fly putt, which is essentially a hand movement that is horizontal to the ground, I think you can break it down to a push and a spin.

Juliana does more of a push. That is, her elbow is in, and the grip hand is more at the back of the disc, and the wrist is not cocked much. During the putt, the amount of wrist break is pretty small.

Ron Russel does more of a spin. His elbow is out, and the grip is more at the side of the disc, and the wrist is more cocked. During his putt, the amount of wrist break is greater, thus imparting more spin. Come to think of it, Des may actually be a better example of a spin-putter. It seems like Ron doesn't actually do much wrist flick, rather, his spin comes more from the arm motion and the stopping of the hand.

Cam, by the way, from what I saw on discTV, really does more of a push. His grip hand is a little more to the side than other push-putters, but the wrist isn't really cocked, and he doesn't impart much spin.

In my opinion, again talking about only horizontal-hand putting, the push putt can give greater accuracy, due to the absence (or lessening) of the wrist-break variable. However, it gives up range.

Finally, I think Dave's pitch putters could also be generally classified as push or spin, but the vertical component makes the separation less clear.

The main adv. of the push putt is that you rarely miss left or right, or at least that is my exp. So then u just have to worry about getting the height right.

thanks Dave.


advantages, disadvantages, thoughts



as for this part of the original question... i outlined some of these in my 12 putting tips article, but overall i look at putting in 3 ways: 1) how difficult is it to perform the said motion correctly, 2) how many "miss variables" can occur in the motion, and 3) how many variables must you compensate for in the disc's flight.
if you look at most activities that require a repetitious routine you see that any weakness in the motion will generally surface over the course of say 1000 performances of that action. with sufficient practice, the relative frequency of each miss variable can be decreased, but never truly eliminated. each additional miss variable during a putting form greatly reduces the probability of hitting say, 18 first putts from 25' in a given round (if this situation were to ever occur).

an example of miss variables (your putt MUST have a few of these, ideally as few as possible). most of these errors occur when people are late with their motion, as people most commonly have a tendency to either get lazy and fail to focus, or get nervous and psyche themselves out leading to a more careful motion that fails to execute the proper technique. while there are people who may have very good success with styles that involve many of these, if you are in the process of forming your putting style, i suggest trying to minimize these now as you develop your style vs. establishing a style and then trying to make changes. here's a partial list (off the top of my head) of possible variables.
mechanics variables:
-any weight shift has a timing component. miss-timing will generally lead to misses low/short.
-any release has a timing component, miss-timing will generally lead to misses to the right.
-any rotation of the upper body is a miss variable, miss-timing will lead to pulls to the right.
-any upper body placement staggered to the target (not square) may have a tendency to pull to the right.
-any hinging/unhinging of the elbow is a miss variable, miss-timing leading to pulls to the right.
-any snap variable has a timing component, miss-timing leading to pulls to the right.

flight variables:
-too little spin will decrease carry and increase low speed fade characteristics.
-too much spin will increase spits.
-an arc-dependent flight will increase high/low miss variables.
-a straight line flight will increase come-back length on misses.
-a nose down putt will not be successful into the wind.
-a nose up putt will not be successful into the wind.
-a hyzer angle will add a distance variable as you "play the fade."
-an anhyzer angle will add a distance and nose angle variable as you "play the flex" and also not work well into a headwind.

now at this point, the turbo putt actually has the lowest number of miss variables... however, i find it to be one of the most difficult to execute consistently unless you have the right putter, the right hand size, etc.

in the development of my own putting style, i attempted to hybrid the styles of the best three putters i have seen (on video or in person) which are barry schultz, cam todd, and rick voakes and have had fairly good success. i putt with a very compact, snap-driven putt, with my shoulders square, staggered or straddle stance, with an underhand pitch that involves very minimal if any movement of the elbow. my line is a small up and down arc with moderate spin and the disc flat in terms of both nose angle and hyzer angle.

one key thing i have noticed about putting is that by releasing the disc before your arm is at full extension (short arm putting) you will reduce the clean release timing variable since you are consciously releasing the disc earlier instead of waiting for the time when you have to release the disc.

by eliminating the "fluff" it is possible to get down to 3-4 mechanics variables but the most players seem to have 6-7 mechanics variables.

Whoa...thats way to technicle! This is a frisbee we are talking about, right? I just like to put mine in the basket. I'm sure no one cares how you get the thing in the chains as long as you get it in the chains.

Up until lastnight, I was using a pitch-putt style, like most people do. I've always had a good approach game. Then it donned on me...Why not throw my putts like I throw my approaches. SO, I experimented and I putted better than I ever have in my life! And, I had a huge putting range. Low ceilings were not a problem any more.

I think everyone knows that the fewer number of molds in your bag, the more consistant golf you play. I think its the same way with throws. Since my new "spin-putt" style is so similar to my approach style, I don't have to try to perfect yet another style of throw.

Not only am I a sidearm slinger and a toe dragger, I am also a push-putter. I like to use the most accurate shots available. If I am close enough I will use a push putt. In tourneys, some of the ladies called it showboating. However for me, If I am w/n 20 ft of the basket and the wind is not in my face it is a no brainer, (which is a good thing ) I will push putt. It is about 95% effective. When I miss, it is because I was not focused, no other reason. Outside of 20 I have to go w/ spin putt though.

Graham:
i do the disc nerd work so people can find the way to make the disc go in the chains the most often. i have had 5 distinct putting styles that i have been able to bring up to a 7 out of 10 average from 25'. only 1 style have i been able to boost to 9 out of 10, although this would be possible with most styles over say, 10,000 putts a year for 5 years (vs. 2 weeks of 100 putts a day that it took with my current form).

over time, the laws of averages always win. under the hypothetical example of having 18 consecutive 25' putts during 1 round (and no misses due to psychological factors)...
although it gets more complicated if you take each error variable into consideration, for simplicity's sake i will assume a style with say, 7 miss variables has a probability of make of 0.7 and a style with say, 4 miss variables has a probability of make of 0.9.
the probability of making all 18 putts:
for 7 miss variables = 0.0016
for 4 miss variables = 0.1501
expected # of putts made on first try per round:
for 7 miss variables = 12.6
for 4 miss variables = 16.2

like i said before, while it is possible to practice any form enough to where you can reach 9 out of 10 or better, if you start from a form that has a higher make % from the early periods, that refinement time will also make that one better as well. putting is very much about feel, but feel comes from practice, and for people who have not yet settled into a putting form they are content with, developing a feel for a putting form that has less things that can go wrong is to their advantage.

i do have to disagree with:
I think everyone knows that the fewer number of molds in your bag, the more consistant golf you play. I think its the same way with throws.



don't mean to step on your toes but imo, there's kind of a trade off. imo, the lower the mold count, the more complete game you have to have in terms of variations on your normal throw and types of shots you are able to throw since you probably aren't carrying a special disc for each of those shots. everyone will end up defaulting to their preferred line when given the opportunity, but it's a luxury to have all of the tools to throw it 12 different ways to reach the same target. it's often the development of this ability that leads to inconsistency along the learning curve as i find it very consistent to throw every shot flat but have a specific disc to do every type of turn/fade, but i do not consider this a "complete game." in the very long run, most people end up at similar spots, some people are just better at it than others.

as for what putting form you choose, there's no real motivation to change until you get fed up with missing in the same way when you do miss. some people are content with this, but i prefer missing differently because if i miss the same, it means i'm doing something habitually that i could probably fix.

I'm still having trouble distinguishing between the two types of putts, but I think I'm a push-putter. Everyone tells me that I'm a 'finesse-putter' -- I seem to be able to guide the disc to the basket fairly well. I don't think I put much spin on it, becuase it's not going very fast, and not spinning very much; but this is why I like it. When I miss, it doesn't go too far past the basket.

I've experimented with what I think is called a "spin-putt," one where alot of spin is generated through lots of wrist (flick) movement, giving the disc a fast path towards the basket. I have switched back and forth, usually using the push putt in tourneys, because I feel safe with it. If I am playing horribly, I'll switch to the spin putt to practice it at game time. I guess I just don't want to miss and have it go too far past the basket.

I have practiced the spin putt and man it seems like it ends up with a much more consistent path towards the basket. I try to throw it with a very slight hyzer, and nose down.

If I'm correct about the definitions of spin and push putt, and if anyone has any advice as to how to get better at why I'm trying to call a "spin-putt," please let me know. The one thing that will make the putting better is puting a basket in the new big backyard!

not sure if kevin stewart is touring around the midwest playing tournaments anymore, but he had(s) the absolute sweetest most effortless, effective putt i have ever seen. no wasted motions, no gimmicks, just a very very smooth putter.

sure climo is the greatest player ever, and barry is on top of his game and cam is a former world champ and rick voakes is an excellent golfer but i've never seen anyone that can putt like kevin.

don't mean to step on your toes but imo, there's kind of a trade off. imo, the lower the mold count, the more complete game you have to have in terms of variations on your normal throw and types of shots you are able to throw since you probably aren't carrying a special disc for each of those shots. everyone will end up defaulting to their preferred line when given the opportunity, but it's a luxury to have all of the tools to throw it 12 different ways to reach the same target. it's often the development of this ability that leads to inconsistency along the learning curve as i find it very consistent to throw every shot flat but have a specific disc to do every type of turn/fade, but i do not consider this a "complete game." in the very long run, most people end up at similar spots, some people are just better at it than others.

as for what putting form you choose, there's no real motivation to change until you get fed up with missing in the same way when you do miss. some people are content with this, but i prefer missing differently because if i miss the same, it means i'm doing something habitually that i could probably fix.



I appriciate everything you do for the game, but like I'm saying...no one is going to care how it goes in if it goes in. For me, the throw with the least miss variables is to just throw it right at the chains. No nonsense, just put it in the chains. Other people might have different mindsets, but for most of the golfers I know, they imitate how pro's refined styles look, but don't actually do what they do. The result is that they look good as the putt goes nowhere near the basket. SO, what that says to me is: If you want to cut miss variables, cut the nonsense out of your throw!! Most people only cause trouble for themselves.

I appriciate everything you do for the game, but like I'm saying...no one is going to care how it goes in if it goes in. For me, the throw with the least miss variables is to just throw it right at the chains. No nonsense, just put it in the chains.



You should do that from the tee and never have to putt again!

well I try...I have 8 this year. :cool:

no one is going to care how it goes in if it goes in.



i don't usually work under the assumption that it is going to go in. most newer players aren't able to put in even half of their 20' putts, no matter what technique they try. imo, the wrist behavior (regardless of a putt that's more like a throw vs. a pitch, etc.) of putting is pretty much a trick shot that isn't that difficult to learn, but until people "get it" it remains a mystery to them. i remember the day that i "got it" and how excited i was to make 10 out of 20 that day. and yes, my first putting form was from a perpendicular shoulder stance and a semi-throwing motion.

but about 10,000 putts later, i wasn't really making more than 15 of 20 and decided i wanted more. my mentality towards it is that there's a reason that many of the top pros have very closely related putting forms (although different in their own ways) but i doubt any of them stake claim to inventing the pitch putt. similarly, i doubt the top free throw shooters in the NBA know who the first player was to shoot free throws with their standard form vs a 2-handed between the legs underhand free throw that was common pre-1960. i doubt anyone argues now that the current free throw form is superior to the old way or not, even if one can make a lot of them with the old way.

the tips i give for putting are not ones to help people get from 2 out of 10 to 5 out of 10. they are more like helping someone get from 6 out of 10 to 8 out of 10 because at this point the novelty of 6 out of 10 doesn't exist and the frustration of those 4 misses often outweighs their habits and comfort.

everyone has in their mind their target make %. when i am in practice, i get disgusted with myself if i make less than 9 out of 10 from 25'. i know a whole lot of people who are content with less than that. but a lot of people don't care much. imo, it comes down to treating it as a true sport as i'd wager players on the PDGA tour (or trying to get on the tour) have probably spent thousands of dollars in training trying to learn how to putt better, etc.

it's a mindset difference. when you say "cut the nonsense" you mean do something you already know well. for me, "cut the nonsense" means get rid of anything that's gonna make me miss. to each his own.

everyone has in their mind their target make %. when i am in practice, i get disgusted with myself if i make less than 9 out of 10 from 25'.



My target make percentage is always 100%. My putting game is all about confidence and "feeling it." Thus, my practice is geared toward building confidence and locking in that feel. If you're someone who works better thinking of statistics and improving percentages, though, my approach probably wouldn't work.

To me, there's a synergy between reducing mistake variables (Blake's style) and just doing what works (Graham's style). For example, a friend of mine, up until recently, liked to fire his Puma right at the basket when he putted. For him, this was the style most likely to go in, and some days, it did. Every other day, though, he was an attrocious putter. The problem was that when he missed, he always had a huge comeback putt - sometimes longer than the first one! With this in mind, he missed a lot, even from up close. So one night I convinced him to go for a long putt with his Aero, just float it in there. He hit the putt to save par, and after some initial waffling, he's pretty much switched styles. Sure, a straight hard line with a Puma may still be the most natural way for him to go, but now when he misses with his Aero, his comeback putt is usually trivial. This has given him a big confidence boost, and he's become a much better putter.

I don't know where in Blakes background he learnded to articulate these things, but my desire to be a better putter brought me to learn from him.
The best way to describe Blakes shortarm putting style to me is darts...to be accurate in darts you don't rare back and throw overhand you quickly propel tha dart. Same w/ discs.. percentage can equal confidence.. step up before a round an not miss one 20' puttlater in the round tell yourself I made 10 of 10 putts from this distance.. relax and nail it... now to work on driving for distance...

thanks Blake

CE :D

Yeah relaxing is very important. I had a little tournament a while back and the first hole we played was the easiest one. I threw my drive OB but ended up with a 12' putt. Then I missed the putt. Then I missed the 6' putt back. I proceded to have a bad round through the next few holes, when I realized that there was no possible way I could win. Thats when I decided to make a mental change and just play for fun. I ended up at -4. The only thing I changed was my mindset, and I completely recovered.

Ball golf pro's say the putt is made before they even walk on the green. I think its the same with Disc Golf.

For those of you that are having trouble distinguishing the push putt from the spin putt click here (http://www.codeca.net/bhmo/). If you go to Climo's putt which is the first selection there is a good example of a push putt and if you go to Ron Russell's putt which is the 12th selection is a good example of a spin putt (this is how i distinguish between the two putts but i could be wrong and those of you that know better correct me if i'm wrong).

climo's = pitch putt.

a push putt is a different entity and i'm sure there's somone w/ more disc background who can describe it better than i could.



percentage can equal confidence


i think bandsagger correctly summed up how i feel about it. when i am "feeling my putt," i can take more aggressive runs and 1) make more of them and 2) never be afraid of a comebacker.

essentially putting is just muscle memory. when i want to make 9 out of 10, it's not that i want to miss 1, it's that i can correctly execute the motion and achieve the target feel 90% of the time and i fail to execute it 10% of the time (and it seems to hover in the 90-95% range no matter how much i practice). it's just the humanized nature of sports (think human drummer vs. drum machine). i just believe that putting styles which inherently have factors that make the putt more difficult to execute are weaker than styles that have less of those factors. imo, "feeling it" is a result of practice, and the goal of practice is to never have to worry about your putting form, just go out there and "feel it."

Does somebody have a video of a push putt?

essentially putting is just muscle memory. when i want to make 9 out of 10, it's not that i want to miss 1, it's that i can correctly execute the motion and achieve the target feel 90% of the time and i fail to execute it 10% of the time (and it seems to hover in the 90-95% range no matter how much i practice).



So would you say that if you throw ten putts, you're very likely to hit nine and miss one? I guess another way to put it would be, over the course of a normal round, do you miss 10% of your makeable putts? Because I know some people with that kind of consistency, but I'm definitely not one of them. I tend to be either hot or cold, and the change can happen in an instant. Last week, I putted perfectly through 12 holes - hit some long ones, and not a single miss inside 30 feet. Then, on hole 13, I blew an 8-footer, and it was over. For the rest of the night, I couldn't sink anything outside arm's reach.

That's an extreme example, of course, but it does illustrate how I tend to putt. Actually, my game scores follow the same pattern. So for me, averages don't mean much in the short run.


imo, "feeling it" is a result of practice, and the goal of practice is to never have to worry about your putting form, just go out there and "feel it."



I have two main goals when I practice. The first is to get the feel to come more easily. For a while now, I've been trying to develop a concrete process for getting myself in the zone. It's working, to an extent. My second goal is to rehearse - and observe - my physical form. If I know all the steps I go through when I'm putting well, it's easier to troubleshoot when I'm doing badly.

So would you say that if you throw ten putts, you're very likely to hit nine and miss one? I guess another way to put it would be, over the course of a normal round, do you miss 10% of your makeable putts?



that's about what is predicted, but each putt has an independent probability roll which can fluctuate with getting hot and cold during the round. in the long run, it should level out in some way assuming i am executing with the % success that i had during practice (a tall assumption to make). there's the fine line between probability theory and actual long run execution.


If I know all the steps I go through when I'm putting well, it's easier to troubleshoot when I'm doing badly.



my advice on this is to figure out what causes the miss. it's usually something small and if it i occurs repeatedly over time it is probably your main miss variable. focusing on not doing whatever it does that causes that miss will generally increase your make %. the idea is that when you miss in that way, you know what it was that caused it every time just based on what your miss looks like.

nearly all of my misses occur when the disc catches on the 2nd knuckle on my middle finger and i yank it to the right at chain height. the cause of this catch is nearly always due to either 1) the disc was overly wet or dirty, 2) i released late and without any wrist snap because i let my arm extend too far, 3) all of my fingers didn't leave the disc at the same time, or 4) i "muscled" the putt and was too tense in the forearm to get the wrist snap i usually get. when i have this type of miss, it's nearly always obvious to me which of these factors caused it and correct it on the next putt. i do miss a few slightly high/low (i.e. knuckle of the chain assembly or nubs on the basket) but if the putt was online i am able to just shake it off and say "oops."

Blake:
I have been watching the video of Shawn Sinclair putting and had a question about it. How much spin is he putting on the disc when he releases it...i can't really tell. Would you consider that a push putt, spin putt or between the two. It also looks like he is putting enough speed on it that if he were to miss it would not leave him with a big comeback putt. Thanks.

sinclair's putt would definitely qualify as a "pitch putt." as for spin, there is "enough" spin to keep it from wobbling over the distance that it carries. as for the comeback length, it is minimized by his putting line because the disc is on the way down as it reaches the basket.

Pitch putt the back swing is low and the release is high. It is actually just tossed in the basket and doesn't care if the object is a disc, ball, or whatever it will follow the same path. Since the disc doesn't actually "fly" as we think of it, the wind effects the disc less and fly-by is reduced greatly.

Push putts are made with the disc moving basically flat and level, with spin generated by a roll off a finger or the hand. The disc actually flies more than in a pitch putt but doesn't have enough V(velocity) to fly-by far. It has such a compact motion it's highly effective from the rough. H. B. Clark has the best one finger push putts in the game. He taught it to me one night saying "if you just practice every day in 10 years you'll be able to do it from 50 feet."

Push putt inside forty feet and spin putt for anything more. :mad:

Many are still getting push putt wrong. There are very very few true push putters. Turbo putting, butterfly, basketball and index finger push are a few types. The hallmark of a push putt is that it starts at the back of the disc and pushes the back of the disc to the target. Some push putts end up spinning around one side or another, but they all start on the back of the disc 180 from the target. Fly putts and pitch putts are gripped under the rim and/or on the underneath side of the flightplate. Most often the grip is a regular backhand fan grip or some variation of a backhand grip. Despite what they may look like, they are both pulled, not pushed as the main impetus. Sometimes there may be a palm push during the follow through. As a contrast, a push grip may have support under the rim, but there is no pull at all. All forward motion is pushed from the outside rear of the rim.

is cam todd a good example of a push putter?

Or perhaps Dave Feldberg?

I think if we had some more videos of people putting it would distinguish the push putt from the spin putt.

Are there any disadvantages to putting with a straddle stance all the time?

neither cam todd nor dave feldberg would be considered push putters.

dgr3, most modern putting forms qualify as some form of spin putt. if i were to break them down, i'd classify the most common forms in 3 different ways.
1) pitch putt. an underhand pitching motion with a diagonally upward/outward stroke either on a line or arcing upward motion. barry schultz, ken climo, shawn sinclair, etc. would fall into these categories.
2) throw putt. a linear, pulled stroke usually involving a parallel shoulder (or something other than perpendicular to the basket) and resembling more of a throw but without the shoulder rotation. ron russell's form is an example of this
3) don't really know a name for this one, "hinge putt" maybe? this involves a bending/unbending of the elbow to power the putt. steve rico, juliana korver, etc. would be examples of this.

hybrid styles do exist as well.

as for a push putt, there aren't many common styles of this anymore. for examples, mainly pulling from the ones dave listed... if the putt resembles in any way a motion such as shooting a free throw, or throwing a football, these would be forms of push putts. the index finger push is harder to describe but it kind of looks like you are trying to whip someone with the pad of your index finger with a sidearm motion.

as for your question about straddle putting... a lot of people find it a bit harder to generate a weight shift (although it can be done) with a straddle stance but aside from that i would say it has more advantages than disadvantages

MMMMM Hybrid

Little bit of this, little bit of that, delicious

blake:
A few more questions about Sinclair's putt. Should i have my index finger along the outside of the rim or under the disc? Also is it done completely flat or with a little hyzer.

i'm not really sure as i've only seen sinclair play once.

basically, your choice on these matters comes down to what you feel you can execute.

the index on the outside of the rim ("last contact point" = 2nd knuckle on the middle finger):
+ easier to get a consistent slide
- less spin
- tendency for off axis torquing

the index finger under/on the rim ("last contact point" = base of index finger):
+ more uniform spin
+ feels more like a throwing grip
- increased importance on release timing

as for hyzer vs. flat...

flat:
+ takes cross winds out of play
+ easy compensation for head/tail winds
+ removes "distance" component, focus is on height
+ no hyzer angle dependence
- range limited on a finesse runs
- line drive runs can leave long comebacks
- nose angle becomes very important

hyzer:
+ less nose angle dependence
+ greater range
+ more consistent finish
- you have to gauge distance to play the fade
- you have to gauge hyzer angle and wind interaction with it

i suggest working with each and picking the one you like better. personally, i prefer a fan grip with flat release but lots of people like to putt hyzer and lots of people also use a control grip.

Blake:
I have read your short arm putting article many times and the only part that is confusing to me is where my center of gravity should be. Should I be leaning forward so that my weight is on my front foot through out the throw or should I be leaning forward so that my weight is on my front foot at the beginning and then rock it to my back foot and then shift it to the front foot again.

dg3:
in terms of learning the form, i recommend starting off w/ 15' putts and no weight shift. on these putts, you will have your weight over your front foot and then just use the arm motion.

as for longer putts that require a weight shift, you have two choices, either start in the back position and then shift forward and execute the same motion, or start forward (easier to line up this way but creates more timing issues), rock back, and then shift forward and execute the motion.

the trick is that when the putt is released you are over your front foot, but for a weight shift you will need to at some point be behind it.

Are there any disadvantages to putting with a straddle stance all the time?



Ask Barry Schultz, He straddle putts all the time and look how he turned out last year. :)

PT Woods
#20431

Are there any disadvantages to putting with a straddle stance all the time?



Ask Barry Schultz, He straddle putts all the time and look how he turned out last year. :)

PT Woods
#20431


Push Putt is OK as long as it has enough spin on it to hold the line thrown. Forward momentum. :cool:

Are there any disadvantages to putting with a straddle stance all the time?



Ask Barry Schultz, He straddle putts all the time and look how he turned out last year. :)

PT Woods
#20431



Not to discredit Barry Schultz, I have much respect for him as a golfer and everyone knows he is one of the best..

I think he has one of the weaker putting games out of all the top pros, but what amazes me is he can miss 20 foot deuce putts and still beat other top pros by many, many strokes. The guy is just amazing off the tee

neither cam todd nor dave feldberg would be considered push putters.



Funny...Cam Todd was helping me with my putt, and he tags himself as a push putter. There isn't alot of spin on his putt...hyzers in near the basket. I spin my disc, and it never moves from it's initial line...from 10 ft out or 100 ft. out. I blow by when I miss, but I bet I hit as good a percentage of 75-100 footers as anyone in the world. This is not advice, so don't take it as that. Putting is all about being comfortable with what you ARE doing.

Good point bro

I use the short arm method, and the only time I really run into problems is when there is a height limit. Especially from 30' or longer, I seem to have to really get some loft to get distance. Will more spin give me a lower longer flight path, the nose angle, more speed, a combination?
The short arm has really improved my putting from the 30' mark but outside of that i pretty much have to hyzer putt which means missing leaves me with a long return putt.

diron:
schultz is probably the best tail wind putter i've ever seen. his style doesn't work well at all into a headwind. have heard interviews with him where he talks about deciding where he wants to be putting from as the key focus of his drive. from what i have seen of him in person, it seems on holes/courses that he struggles to reach from the tee (or in extreme cases on a 2nd shot) that he has more problems putting.

involuntary:
i know exactly what you are talking about. my putt is good up to about 34' and then i start jump putting. the short arm method i have an article about is not able to generate enough velocity during the stroke length so extra power must either come from the legs or taking advantage of disc flight characteristics to keep the disc in the air. i'll try different methods depending upon what kind of line/wind i have to deal with. for a straight line (and not a lot of elevation) i find a jump putt will add about 20' worth of D with the same line. i.e. on a 35' jump putt, i'll use a 15' stroke/line, on a 45' jump putt, a 25' stroke/line, etc. i find this peaks out around 55-60' though and then a line change is necessary. hyzer/anhyzer putts will both carry farther than a flat line. slight nose up will also carry farther with sufficient juice on it. the trade off is that i find w/ the short arm that most 25' and in putts feel like gimmie's when you are humming, so a 25' blow by is of little concern... although is often more of a tester than one would desire

yeah Blake,
I read your article a few weeks ago after my fiance bought me a pole hole, and I am stoked at the difference short arm putting has brought to my game within 30' thank you.
now, i have to make the decisions from 40' to 60' on whether to jump put for an easy two putt, or hyzer, anhyzer putt for the birdie risking a bogie or worse if I miss. The cool thing is that even with a bad hyzer putt, if lands within 25' now, I'm pretty sure to sink the second putt.
this is all on rather open greens though. strategies change when obstacles are in the way.
any way, thanks again for the article on short arm putting, it has not only improved my short game, but added another dimension to course strategy. :D

diron:
schultz is probably the best tail wind putter i've ever seen. his style doesn't work well at all into a headwind. have heard interviews with him where he talks about deciding where he wants to be putting from as the key focus of his drive. from what i have seen of him in person, it seems on holes/courses that he struggles to reach from the tee (or in extreme cases on a 2nd shot) that he has more problems putting.




Didn't ask you :p

Its all about the jump putt. id rather be 35 feet from the basket then 20 these days. i can hit more jumpers than non wheather youre a push or spin putter, jump putting will shave strokes off your game guranteed

schultz is probably the best tail wind putter i've ever seen . . . have heard interviews with him where he talks about deciding where he wants to be putting from as the key focus of his drive.



Yeah, I do that too. It turns out, though, that deciding where you want your drive to land is the easy part. Actually getting it there is what Barry does so much better than I do.

I push putt up close, add a little spin when I'm outside 30'. My favorite aspects of the push putt are that it holds a nearly perfect line, unaffected by wind, and when I miss, the comeback putt is minimal. When I need a little more distance, I switch from my Firm Wizard to my Champion Aero. While it's not quite as accurate, the Aero's glide will often give it an extra few feet without needing any more speed.

I also think people should do more turbo-putting. It's a great shot when you have an awkward stance, and you can run long ones without much fear of a big blow-by. And despite the "How do you do that?" response it almost always gets, the turbo putt is really easy to learn. Most people I've taught get the general idea within a couple minutes.

Its all about the jump putt. id rather be 35 feet from the basket then 20 these days. i can hit more jumpers than non wheather youre a push or spin putter, jump putting will shave strokes off your game guranteed


Timing must be the key to jump putting. Every time I try it i feel like i'm tearing my body in half. Do you use the jump putt with a short arm stroke that Blake talks about in his article? Or do you have a different technique? I'll take all the help I can get outside of 35'. Of course thats just with straight line putts. hyzers and annies i just need practice, a lot of practice. :p

ivp:

timing is the key to jump putting. you shoudln't feel like you are overly straining. as for some tips on how to get used to it, i would recommend starting using 1 of these 2 methods:

1) walking putt. give a substantial weight shift and don't try to stop yourself. simply walk through the putt and end up on your left leg or even continuing further. this should help with the timing of it but i don't really like it in the long run as i find the shift in hip orientation has a tendency to throw off the upper body.

2) jump straddle putt. if you are familiar with the weight shift of a straddle putt (i try to describe it as pushing your legs into the ground), make this a very strong push. i recommend pulling your feet from a straddle stance to a staggered stance as this will get both of your feet off the ground at the same time and keep your shoulders oriented.

my putt gets kind of streaky in terms of distance (it's always on line) and some days i find i can really get a line drive rocket while other days it's a bit slower (if my release timing is off a bit). on the days with the fast line drive, i find i can run a jump putt on this line up to about 70', but on slower days i peak more like 55' on a reasonable line. on the slower days i find height becomes an issue, especially with low hanging branches, etc. as a 70' putt will take more like 8-10' of height.

as for practicing hyzer/anhyzer putts to gain some more D but using a similar stroke, a lot of it depends on the line you wish to take. basically, i see 4 different lines (other than flat) and how they translate back to the short arm technique varies a bit. the longest range methods will involve an elbow extension.
two things that are consistent across methods in their translation to the short arm tech.: commit the disc angle before you start your putt and keep your stroke compact.

for an s-curve putt, you will generally need a bit of nose up at this range since there won't be enough air under the disc to have time to flex out. the first way is to perform a usual pitch but with a bit of anhyzer angle from the start (the arm orientation during the pitch will probably have the elbow lower than the disc). the second way is to start with the anhyzer angle but instead of using a pitch, use a quick elbow extension on straight out and pulling the disc straight out and using a similar popping open of the hand at the release point.

for a straight hyzer putt, you will also start with a bit of nose up. commit the disc angle early (usually very slight hyzer to flat) and they are executed similar to the s-curve putt above, either by a linear pitch or a quick elbow extension straight out and flat.

wide anhyzer putts and sweep/knife hyzer putts are slightly different but are executed basically through the same two methods. one of which is a pitch but the push is outwards and on angled off to the right or left. the elbow extension on these will extend outward (on an angle) and preserve the plane the disc is on.

my best advice for this is to just experiment. each of these will come in useful at some time or another and will give extra D. however, due to the increase in variable counts i find on 35' and in putts it's still more consistent to take the flat, straight line whenever possible. keep in mind the only thing that really makes a putt "short arm" is by consciously releasing the disc before the arm is fully extended away from the body. it just so happens the article i wrote was teaching a specific method that i found the most consistent after thousands of putts in "make range" of 35' and in.

Thanks Blake,
I can feel the tendon flex in the short arm technique and it does work great when my timings right. The thing I like most about it is that my misses are never far off even when long. That's why I'm trying to figure out the jump putt. If I can end up with a five footer everytime I try and miss a seventy footer I'll shave strokes.
When I referred to hyzer/annie putts in my previous posts I was talking about the need to avoid objects in/on the green. I haven't tried to really get any right to left or vice versa on the short arm putts, I just use a short bent elbow backhand with hyzer or anhyzer on the release.
I'll give the pitch putt with curve a try in the morning though and see what I think.
Thanks again,
Jay

ivp:

let me know how it works out. i find myself often putting with stuff in the way and have developed short arm methods for each of those scenarios which i will practice as well. the big thing as well is that hyzer/anhyzer putts will get more air under the disc and keep them in the air longer which will translate into more putting D. i'll usually throw air bounces when i get outside of 100' but if the straight line is blocked i'll often do some jump hyzer putts that often get oohs and aahs when i buzz the basket from up to about 140'.

while i beileve that it's always good to have the jump putt as part of your bag of tricks, you can also just keep in mind that adding an additional power component from the arm will add the D but also add an additional variable to your make %. similarly, the s-curve and straight hyzer putts will add 2 more variables as you have to play the fade as well as the hyzer/nose angle. however, they are useful often for just getting close consistently on 70' putts and while you might only make a small % they will yield a high level of precision and you can leave yourself with a drop in every time. i just find them unnecessary on shorter putts where the premium is on accuracy.

What are "air bounces" ?
Putting today went okay, still haven't really gotten good curvature on short arm putts, but I'm still really focusing on dialing in the "feel" of the tendon bounce in order to generate more snap.
I'm at about 90% from 15', 75% from 25' and 50% from 30'
so I've got a lot of work to do. I have noticed that if I take a day or two off from practicing that my numbers fall off. :(

ivp, air bounces are thrown nose up, with the disc height being at its lowest point in flight somewhere between you and the target, to then rise again. I.e you actually throw them slightly downward, but with nose up, adding a bit of push down/forward with your thumb on the top of the disc. Good spin also necessary.

Very useful to get under low branches, and for accurate approach/go-for-it throws. Since the nose is up, they pull the brake when reaching the basket and have a good chance of going in, while not risking going far beyond the target if you miss, they just kind of hoover for a moment while dropping to the ground. Best discs for this I think are slow approach/putters. I use Discraft Rattler for these shots. Can also be made to some extent with say any disc in the Aviar-like family. There are some oldtimers out there who still keep a Wham-O 71 mold, or even a Midnight Flyer 40-mold in the bag for best air bounce effect.

Blake, to be legal, doesn't the disc have to be released before the jump? What percentage of jump putts you observe are legal and not foot faults?

robj:

yes, that is correct. i would say most well executed jump putts i observe are legal, since a jump putt is basically a falling putt utilizing a greater weight shift. when the weight shift occurs between the back position and the forward position, and to take advantage of a quick, strong weight shift and still release at the point you do on standard putts, one has to release the disc at the forward position. while foot faults probably do occur, it's a very small frame of reference to observe. most people i know start learning jump putts with a walking putt, where they simply continue forward onto their left foot after the putt and then gradually work in a stronger weight shift. i prefer a jump putt to a walking putt since i find the motion of the left hip forward has a tendency to give some torso rotation.

basically, to answer the question again, i would say, most, but not all jump putts are legal, but the majority of them that are footfaults are within fractions of a second.

robj:

yes, that is correct. i would say most well executed jump putts i observe are legal, since a jump putt is basically a falling putt utilizing a greater weight shift. when the weight shift occurs between the back position and the forward position, and to take advantage of a quick, strong weight shift and still release at the point you do on standard putts, one has to release the disc at the forward position. while foot faults probably do occur, it's a very small frame of reference to observe. most people i know start learning jump putts with a walking putt, where they simply continue forward onto their left foot after the putt and then gradually work in a stronger weight shift. i prefer a jump putt to a walking putt since i find the motion of the left hip forward has a tendency to give some torso rotation.

basically, to answer the question again, i would say, most, but not all jump putts are legal, but the majority of them that are footfaults are within fractions of a second.


Does the jump putt really work ?
I have played for 30 + years and never had the need to jump putt. Is the jump putt a putt with push or just alot of spin ?

The jump putt that I'm working on is Blake's short arm putt with a very significant weight transfer. There is spin on the disc, but it doesn't glide as much as a backhand snap. I was having trouble getting the short arm putt to work outside of 30', but with a jump putt, I'm now starting to put them in at 40'+, and the cool part is that when I miss the disc doesn't have the snap to go sailing past the pin and give me another long putt.
The jump seems to be more of a follow through from really using my legs to generate power rather than a jump forward to get closer to the basket.

blake:
One more question about short arm putting. When you are putting is any part of your left leg (i am right handed) ever supposed to leave the ground before you release the disc? If it does, does it create balance issues or something else?

In my experience, short putts <15' don't require my left, or back leg to come off the ground. However, when putting from farther out, I need a greater weight shift, and that results with my back leg lifting off the ground. Inside of 10 meters I have to make sure I stay balanced on my front leg because of the demonstrating balance rule, but outside of 10 meters I can fall all over the place or just step through. If i'm falling all over the place on my follow through, it's usually a result of something wrong mechanically with my putting motion/weight transfer, so in truth, when I properly execute the short arm motion balance is not at all difficult.

But then again that's just my limited experience, Blake probably has more to add.

Oh, my putting percentages haven't really changed much, except I'm starting to have realistic chances with 40-50' tries. I'm even attempting jump putts up to 70'. Starting from a straddle stance has really helped.
:D

i only really lift my left leg off the ground on putts that are at the peak of my standard run (slightly arcing line drive, flat, and aimed at the pole) range.

if your leg does leave the ground, this should happen right as you weight shift into the motion (i.e. pushing off your left leg over your front foot). the harder you push, the more likely you are to lift this leg and the more balance issues will come into play. hopefully you should find that you are able to make putts inside the 10m mark without having to push soo hard you get a balance issue (similar to what ivp mentioned).

i guess also of consideration is how bent your right leg is. personally, i putt nearly straight legged as i find once i start bending my knee a lot and pulling from lower i end up with height issues. the more bent the knee, the less need there is to lift the left leg up.

whats the differents , i push the disc out of my hand in a spinning motion :confused:

whats the differents , i push the disc out of my hand in a spinning motion :confused:



No wonder you cant putt :D

See you at worlds

thats not true :D

I was so comfortable with my putt until I read this thread, no more reading for me

me is confuseded
I agree w/ matchu. I was comfortable w/ my putt until reading this but now my head just hurts. I'm glad I dont think this much about putting when I mark my lie. If I did I'd probably never hit chains again.

OK where did i put those BC powders???

I think if we had some more videos of people putting it would distinguish the push putt from the spin putt.



Did some videos of the different putting techniques ever get posted? I scanned through the thread and didn't come across any links...

Did some videos of the different putting techniques ever get posted? I scanned through the thread and didn't come across any links...


Yeah click here (http://www.codeca.net/bhmo/). Climo's is the pitch and Russel's is the spin putt.

Schweet :cool: Thanks man!

Quick putting question for y'all - what % would you say you successfully putt from 25 feet? I set up my target in the back yard and I'm putting 100 at a time from 25 feet. I'm hitting about a third of the putts, and I know that's not good enough, but the number is slowly climbing. What % would you say an average intermediate player would hit? What about a pro?

Took 300 putts this afternoon and I'm icing my shoulder as I type this. :D

from the PDGA site at: http://www.pdga.com/player_class.php

according to this:
pro = 6-8 out of 10 from 25'
adv = 5-7 out of 10 from 25'
intermediate = 5-7 out of 10 from 20'

i find there is a TON of variation in putt make %'s amongst players, but it doesn't always reflect scorewise as there are players who are great drivers and poor putters who can score the same as people who are poor drivers and great putters.

i finally shot some video of putting and have them posted at:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/davefeldberg2.shtml
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/chrissprague2.shtml
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/chrissprague3.shtml

Nice video's. Anymore coming?

from the PDGA site at:
intermediate = 5-7 out of 10 from 20'



Hmm ... I'll try some sets from 20' tomorrow. I think I can get 5 out of 10 from 20 feet. Thanks for the link, Blake.

heh. i just posted 45 new clips today, but only those 3 were of putting.

i doubt i'll be doing another shoot until the worlds

Thanks for all your online clinic stuff. I have learned a lot from them.

One request: Could you put Quicktime versions of your videos online as well at the RealPlayer format? You may have already considered this and decided against it, but the QT player is much better at stepping through videos frame-by-frame than any of the other viewers I have used.

Thanks!

i have considered it but there were a couple of things i considered when i decided to post videos. first of which was a dual platform video format that i hoped most people had a player for. second was size/quality ratio. i don't have the QT coded to encode, so i'm not sure what kind of size the files would end up. i was hoping to originally post divx's since imo, they have the best size/quality ratio but i also didn't feel like explaining the codec. also of concern is bandwidth, but if someone were to want to mirror higher quality versions of the videos, i wouldn't be opposed to it.

boy, i didn't have my basket for two weeks and my putting really suffered. I've gotten back into practice a little and i'm hitting 90 out of 100 from 15 but it drops to 60 out of 100 from 20. I have gotten more range though, i'm getting the timing down on my weight transfer.

Not to discredit Barry Schultz, I have much respect for him as a golfer and everyone knows he is one of the best..

I think he has one of the weaker putting games out of all the top pros, but what amazes me is he can miss 20 foot deuce putts and still beat other top pros by many, many strokes. The guy is just amazing off the tee



Who does everyone else think is one of the best pros at putting.

See the other putting thread but the best putter out there in my opinion is Cam Todd... hands down

I have seen and played with some of the best

See the other putting thread but the best putter out there in my opinion is Cam Todd... hands down

I have seen and played with some of the best


Yeah, I saw it. Wierd because I asked the same question he did a couple of hours before. Oh well my question was answered.

See the other putting thread but the best putter out there in my opinion is Cam Todd... hands down

I have seen and played with some of the best


Yeah, I saw it. Wierd because I asked the same question he did a couple of hours before. Oh well my question was answered.



I saw yours went unanswered, so I made a seperate thread. Also, I wanted to see video footage.