was just curious...

to those who can throw over 400' consistently...

1) how much height do you use on drives > 400'?
2) what state is your "home course" in?

am curious of the results... as well as if this supports the idea of "midwest D"

I like the thread, as I've recently been asking myself very much the same question.
The two guys I know that throw WAY OVER 400 feet also throw the disc very high.
The observable technique is that they bend over and throw the disc upwards in a dead straight line at about a 35 degree angle with a hyzer release angle. The line of release is almost like a power backhand in tennis. In tennis, it's from the knee to the waist. In disc golf it's a bit higher, from waist to shoulder, approximately.
The longest thrower (Rich), is a huge pro-football built guy. Almost-another-species big, and STRONG. His throw starts out with a fairly steep hyzer angle as it flies dead straight and upwards to about (?) 60 feet high and already 200 feet out. Then it flips up level and looks like it has an afterburner as it rips forward another 200 feet, sometimes with a slight right turn, then glides forward and downward and either lands or slams into something at 550-600 feet.
The other guy (Phil) who throws almost as far is about 6'3" and wirey. Zero body fat. He throws with an anhyzer angle, but pulls straight ahead and upward at a similar angle to Rich.
His disc flips level more quickly and has a deeper right to left fade than the other guy, and maybe 50 feet less distance, on average.

Sorry for the contradictions. Thinking out loud + tequila
/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

20-30 ft. of height
Texas

I'm in Washington state. When I throw my Wildcats, they usually take about 20-25' of height to get that far. When I had my Spirit, I could throw it without going over 15'. It was amazingly fast!!

Some discs (saber, blaze) need alot of height to get big distances, while others (Spirits, Wildcats) don't need much.

I don't throw 400' consistently, but I can occasionally get it that far forehand. I'd say those throws are 10-15' high. Guys here who throw long backhand seem to use 20-30' of height.

I live in Hawaii.

<- Iowa here

11x KC Teebird up to 420' with a flat/anhyzer line about 20ft high

dx teebird up to around 440' with a hyzer flip about 30ft high

still experimenting with higher flip and anhyzer lines for more D, I probably support the midwest D theory right now

It depends on how much height is available. I think this ties into the conclusion you are trying to make.

You can line drive a 400 footer if needed. 10-15'
or if available
you can put out a higher swooping drive 15 -20'

So to answer your question... I look to my shorts.. Depends.

Minnesota

I think a similar question would be how high do the guys in the Bid D contests throw when they're reaching 750-800 feet?

I drive 400'-460' about 35'-45' off the ground with Champion Beasts and Orcs. I live in Iowa. What is the "Midwest D Theory" or whatever???

Yeah! Good question. What is the midwest D theory? :confused:

For me, it takes maybe 15 feet. I keep it low and fast on a "gliding" angle (slight anhyzer, it doesn't always make a big right turn) and have it come back left.
I live in Connecticut, near the coast, almost exactly at sea level and maybe slightly below.

slowmo_1: the 600'+ throws at big D usually have 60' or more of height. i've only witnessed 3 throws in person of > 550' on flat ground and they all were well over 50' of height.

as for the explanation leading up to midwest D...
anyone who has taken a physics course is probably familiar with the "at what angle should they fire the cannonball to get maximum carry?" being that the cannonball is very poor in terms of its aerodynamic properties, the simple answer is 45 degrees. however, discs (thankfully) are much different and are better suited for lower trajectories. however, there probably exists an "ideal" trajectory which will launch a disc the greatest distance given the same conditions, velocity, snap, etc.

the response so far has a range from 10-45'+ with an average around 25'. this is quite a range. i posted a similar question 2-3 years (pre-beast/wildcat era) ago and got a fairly different response. the replies then were in the 25-50' range with an average closer to 35'. i'm curious as to how much of this is due to the trends in disc design, or if people just throw lower now.

as for "midwest D," i first heard the expression used in portland, oregon describing a tendency for midwest players to throw low line drives. basically, it is the idea that players develop their throwing motions suited for the general charactericstics of the courses around them. for example, areas with mostly finesse courses with a lot of low ceiling tunnel shots have players that are more likely to adopt low line drive throws vs. areas with longer, more open courses are more likely to develop players with high crushes.

the discussions i had with the person about "midwest D" came up after seeing me throw a 360' drive that peaked at 8' off the ground yet struggle scorewise trying to snake low line drives through clusters of pine trees, they asked me "with your arm why don't you just go over the trees?" my reply was something along the lines of "sure... wait, what?"

after doing some research, i found that certain regions bred a lot more 450' throwers and in other regions the number of consistent 450' throwers could be counted on 1 hand. in the end, both types of players had similar D on throws that were less than 20' off the ground but only certain areas had large percentages of players that consistently threw well over 20' off the ground.

i guess a follow up question to this study... for those who can throw a cyclone 400' (or know someone who can throw a cyclone over 400'), how much height does that take?

I can crush my oldschool glow cyclone 400'. Its a great disc! I would say it takes 25-30' of height, but its kinda hard to guage height at that distance. With SE TL's it takes about 35'. With a Viper it takes 35-40'. I think new discs can be thrown lower because they are much faster.

Gateway discs with Hyperlift technology (SD, Spirit) can be thrown this distance with anywhere from 5-15' of height. Hyperlift technology is not BS.

but its kinda hard to guage height at that distance


I'm wondering how accurate these estimates of height are? Most people are horrible at estimating (I know i'm not great at it) . :confused:

Does the Illusion have "HyperLift" technology?

I don't know if the Illusion has Hyper-lift. I would guess it does, because its similar to the SD and Spirit. Dave McCormack told me he's already thrown one over 500' and 480' into a headwind!!

he's already thrown one over 500' and 480' into a headwind!!


Yea, I've thrown my putter 800' into a headwind. (message board distance) :)

I recommend throwing 0' in the air. Rollers are the easiest way to hit 400'

Chris, it's not that simple to get a 400 ft roller with 0 ft in the air. Great risk of hurting your toes... ;)

Disc height is of course very dependant of disc choice. I get almost similar distance on the golf course with KC 9x/10x teebirds as with Orcs (Actually some more D with the teebirds), but the teebird has to be thrown higher. Maybe around 20-25 ft off the ground as opposed to around 10-15 for the Orc. And yes, it's very hard to estimate the height of a throw...

That's also what I use when in pure Distance competition. Quite high Teebirds, definitely higher than a standard golf drive, intitally thrown maybe around 40 degrees left of the tailwind in an almost flat/slight anhyzer release that turns over at the highest point of the throw (maybe 40ft off the ground?)to get the nose down when going into the wind, which at that point in the throw is coming straight from behind of the discs trajectory. Just as Blake wrote, the really big distance guns normally use a hyzer flip to get the disc even higher and further away before turning right into the clean tail wind, but my technique seems to generate the most speed at a late release flat/anhyzer angle.

I know Christian Sandstr�m has worked at the national Swedish sports centre using top-notch hi-tech equipment to measure at what throw he generates the most power/speed, and for him that was with a hyzer release.

I'm also absolutely positive that longer open courses will naturally produce more big arms. Especially if there's already one or two of those around, that new players get to see and learn from. Not only the proper throwing techniques, but also just to see what really is possible to do with a disc.

A good golf drive for me is around 400 ft. A good distance throw with a decent tailwind, and a 360 turnaround run-up, around 500-530. On average maybe around 10-25ft shorter.
(My personal record measured in competition 578ft, during practise several over 600...)

(Have you seen the nifty google conversion function? New to me til around a month ago anyway. Just open google.com in a web browser, and type e.g. 150m in ft in the search input field, works for most unit conversions)

peter:

guess the big question is this one:
shouldn't the orc be able to fly farther if given the same height as the teebird? or does the lower profile and higher speed not conducive to higher throws (less lift)?

It takes me 8-10ft with a new Z-wildcat or starfire to reach 400'+. Those discs are so fast that it doesn't matter how low I throw them as long as it's not in the ground they getter done. The higher I throw the disc the less snap I try to put on it since I'm trying to get them to glide to the pen and when I throw them low I snap the Hell out of them to get the speed needed to go 400+.
I'm from Dayton, Ohio but the flattest ground that I have thrown over 400 is in Michigan (Hudson mills).

Blake, that's exactly the key question. And I think you're on track with your theory. I haven't personally experimented with the Orc on the distance field yet, so I don't really know for sure. :confused:

One of the most important keys for really big D is the last glide phase of the throw and with a high throw you will have a potential longer glide, provided that the chosen disc really has a good glide with as little end flight fade as possible, and your throw imparts enough speed and spin to the disc to keep it in this phase as long as possible.

And yes, I guess the Orc would have some potential there. I have given it a few chances downwind on the golf course, but there I tend to get the best Orc results when throwing closer to a lower line drive style. When throwing in distance competition I release really late and high to get maximum speed and the best release angle for my form, so a golf drive is not really comparable in my case.

Of course in my opinion this is also individual, and probably depends a lot on your throwing style. If your form cannot get a chosen disc into the long downwind glide, it will simply not work well in distance competition. Although high speed certainly will make up for some of the loss of glide/lift that at least so far seems to be the disadvantage of most of the ultra high speed drivers, especially in the late phases of the flight.

I tested the Beast thoroughly last summer, but stayed with my 9x Teebirds for field distance. The Beast was a lot faster, but I couldn't get it to glide as well.But I will definitely give the Orc, as well as the Flash, a go in distance practise.

Maybe disc technology is approaching the point where disc speed is getting more important than glide for maximum distance? Thus requiring a somewhat lower trajectory?

Sandstr�m told me that he didn't really like the Orc for distance, he now throws Valkyries and Beasts for field distance competition. But then his amount of throwing power and speed is extreme, bordering on ridicilous... ;)

thanks for the info, let us know how your orc trials go

I can throw a low burner with about 6'-8' for my lowest to reach the 400' mark.

The highest (without wind assistant) is probably around 60'-80' to reach the 400' mark.

I am from California

When the Orc first came out we got into all this in the Orc thread. Most DGers can't separate a "distance shot" from a "golf shot" So they think whatever flies the furthest for them on the golf course would also go the farthest for a distance shot in open field. The problem with this in my mind is that if you know anything about distance throwing, you should not expect people that throw distance competitions to use golf shots for their distance shots. After making this statement I got flamed up to my eyeballs with people telling me that I knew nothing about flight characteristics and was just generally a moron. This made me laugh. Of course people disagree with things they don't understand. Which is fine, and funny :)

I still think that a 9x or 10x teebird is the best disc for distance for most styles. And I don't expect the top distance throwers to break the record with an Orc or a Flash (yes I am aware that the current record is held with a valkyrie, not teebird). I could be wrong, but after researching a lot of stuff, those are my findings.

I say most styles because not everyone throws for D the same way. I was at big last year and was watching Voight throw X and Z talons. Not exactly your stereotypical understable tailwind driver. And for me, I use X and Z predators to achieve my greatest distance, which to some people seems ridiculous, but after observing my form, it makes total sense.

I would love to see the results from a distance thrower who compares the Orc and the Flash to their normal distance discs (namely the teebird).

peter, will be interested in the outcome as well.

Maybe disc technology is approaching the point where disc speed is getting more important than glide for maximum distance? Thus requiring a somewhat lower trajectory?



i briefly wrote on the "true innovations" with my thoughts on this design. i think the limit of speed is approaching... as eventually a disc will come out with a cruise speed that is too high for most people to throw. the next big step in the current design i am guessing will be a characteristic of the very-ignored reaper. get this disc on a slight annie line drive and when it flexes out, it lifts a few feet off the ground.

however, (and saying this at the risk of ridicule) i do not believe that the distance record will be broken by the current trend of driver, although i wouldn't mind being proven wrong because i like hearing about monster throws. there are a lot of people crushing these for 500' of golf d, but the extra football field's worth of length needed takes a lot of factors that are not a focal point of the new, fast, and flat discs as they aren't as "kite-like" as a lot of the other discs.

i also believe that the fade component of a distance toss is becoming neglected. if the disc doesn't fade, you are losing some potential D because the disc will not get the fade in the forward direction. the tendency of newer discs to hold the turnover until ~90% mark in the flight path just seems to require way too much speed into the later half flight to prolong their flex/fade which is not very strong.

ryan:
i agree with your split view of techniques for golf d and pure d, sorry to hear it was met with disagreement. i also split golf d into two categories: 1) line drive height-limited control D and 2) wide open but still know where i want to land D.
right now i'm trying to figure out the key to #2.

also, your d technique with x-preds makes total sense, have seen a lot of people crush overstable plastic on the distance annie line w/ x-clones, xtras, and x/z preds.

hereen:
i agree rollers are the easiest way to hit 400'. most people w/ 360-ish air shot power should be able to hit that. however, w/ 400' of air power, most people should be able to roll 425-450' which is even better :D

greg:
i also seem to remember you throwing some 50' crushes the only time i've seen you throw from the parking lot at calvary in 2002. do you not do that anymore? :p

hereen:
i agree rollers are the easiest way to hit 400'. most people w/ 360-ish air shot power should be able to hit that. however, w/ 400' of air power, most people should be able to roll 425-450' which is even better :D



My only problem with falling on the "It is easier to get 400' with a roll" ideology is the accuracy involved (or deterioration of accuracy as it would be). If I can reach a 400' hole in the air, my accuracy in almost all cases will be much greater than if I roll. Rollers are one of the most unpredictable shots in disc golf. You can definitely get crazy distance with a roller, but past 300' the accuracy decreases exponentially.
If you are in a field with your buddies trying to see who can get their disc the farthest by any means, sure go for the roll. But in a distance competion your distance is measure from the first contact the disc has with the ground, so your 600' roll is only going to get you a 250' shot if you're lucky. And if you want to break the world record for rolling, good luck, it is over 1000 meters, yes meters, not feet.

My philosophy is that if you can reach it in the air, take the air shot. I know there are certain factors that play into such as terrain, tree layout, etc. But if you have an equal choice between the airshot and the roller, the airshot is a better choice.
(if the hole is 800' away, by all means, roll! :p)

I used to throw teebirds for open field, 50' high distance, but I have found that the orc will go even farther for pure distance style shots, especially once it's beat up a bit. I imagine that the pro orc, which should be a little bit domier and understable right out of the box, will be useful for outrageously high and long shots.

Really interesting to hear about your Orc distance experiences josgood. Makes me wanna get out on the distance field right now... (Local Stockholm time: 1:41 AM) ;) And I agree with you, the proline Orc might be a really good distance disc with both speed and dome, especially with the superior grip that plastic gives. Let's hope for the best.
So many discs, so little time... sigh... :D

while i cannot chuck a disc 400+, i can get 325-340 if i get about 30' of height.

I can consistantly hit around the 375-400 ft mark and i use about 30' of height.

Some guys up here throw it about 50' in the air and can hit about 450 consistanly.

Im from St.Thomas, Ontario

A couple of factors I don't think we've touched in this discussion yet:

1. Wind. The harder the tailwind, the more I think you can benefit from a higher throw distance-wise. At low/no wind I think the power/speed is better spent getting the disc more forward rather than up.

2. Throwing power/speed and initial upward angle. The really big arms generate more power, but the upward angle of the disc flight I think does not differ as much as one would think from throws by weaker arms. But since the disc velocity is higher, the disc will simply fly for a longer time in its initial upward direction, and consequently reach higher before turning over from its highest point in the trajectory for the last part of the flight, as compared to less powerful players.

another point regarding wind...
If you are releasing with an anhyzer/flex throw, you don't want a direct tailwind.

You will benefit much more if you throw with wind coming over your non throwing shoulder toward your throwing arm.
Left handed I need the wind to be coming over my right shoulder and out toward my left arm at about ten o' clock. Righties would probably max their throws around two o' clock depending on the stability of the disc, the more stable the disc, the more cross wind/less tailwind..

This will generate much more initial lift and the disc will thrust higher, while keeping the same forward trajectory. Then after the disc hits it's plateau and begins to hyzer back, the wind will fight the turn keeping it aloft longer.

My experience has been the same. The 500' plus throwers at my local throw the disc at least 50 feet high (open field throwing).
VERY few people can throw more than 500 feet.

Personally, I don't think anyone can throw 400' I think you must be pretty high if you think you are throwing that far!

what?

what? Heeren has to be joking

good job mr. obvious

For golf distance, there's a lot to be said for overstable discs, if you can comfortably generate the speed. Throw super hard, with plenty of snap and just enough height not to ground out at the beginning. You're probably never going to break any distance records this way, but because you keep your shots low, don't get too much high-speed turn (more of a straight-line cruise), and always get the fade at the end, you have a very accurate, usable golf shot. I find Monsters and E Spirits (probably Predators too) the best discs for these shots. For me, it's the only way to get reliable distance into a headwind.

Go a bit less overstable, to something like a Talon or an S Spirit, and it's all about the crosswind. I like to get one of those discs low and turning with the wind. It goes a mile, but you get a lot of sideways drift, so accuracy suffers. Oh well, you can't have everything.

Personally, I don't think anyone can throw 400' I think you must be pretty high if you think you are throwing that far!



I agree...I only have 2'. How the heck am I going to throw 400'?

Couldn't resist this old thread. With a beat to hell Blaze, I need about 30' or so of height to reach 400'. With a Spirit, it only takes about 15' or so to reach 400'.

10-20 feet. I don't throw pure D well at all, so I get my 400' with line drives/line drive turnovers.

Personally, I don't think anyone can throw 400' I think you must be pretty high if you think you are throwing that far!



Even as an Amateur (MA1) I can throw 450ft, and that is only playing 8 months. It is all about arm speed and timing your snap. I am the only amateur here in Birmingham currently that can throw that far.

I do however believe alot of people lie about how far they can throw. I can easily throw past one of our placements which is a measured 412ft, and have been measured in a distance contest at 450ft, although that was fighting a 15mph head wind. But if you look at your top advanced and open players, they can all topple the 400ft barrier with ease.

BTW, to answer the thread. I usually throw straight at the basket about 10-15ft above the ground. That is using either Beasts of my favorite, Orcs. If I use a Firebird or Flick I throw the big anhyzer/flex and that is about 30ft off the ground and can still get that 400ft, not much more though.

But if you look at your top advanced and open players, they can all topple the 400ft barrier with ease.




Not all the time. One of our better AMs can only get to 400' once in a while, but he is so smooth and a pretty good putter, that it makes up for it.

All you really need to be good disc golfer, distance wise, is 400' with some accuracy. It helps to throw farther, but you're not at THAT much of a disadvantage if you can't. I've beaten many people in tourneys that throw farther than me, b/c I keep my cool, play smart, and nail putts.

I absolutely agree Deadhead, that is really what is keeping me from moving up right now. Maybe next year.

I tend to let my mistakes eat at me even though my external temper is kept under raps. But that is why I am advanced. When my game is on, I am playing with the best of them, but when I am having an off day, I debate moving back down to Am. " I blame my last round on all approaches made with my 1st run Pro Line Aviar, piece of junk"

Guess I should go work on my short game.

Yeah, you win tournaments with the little things...and the shots around the green. Sometimes you have to swollow some pride and take a solid 4, instead of risking a 5 by trying the riskier throw to get a 3. Hurts, but helps in the long run.

Couldn't resist this old thread. With a beat to hell Blaze, I need about 30' or so of height to reach 400'. With a Spirit, it only takes about 15' or so to reach 400'.



I'd be able to relate more to this post if I had any idea what in the world a Blaze or a Spirit is and how they normally fly. And I'm willing to bet that a large majority of message boarders are equally as clueless.

I finally hit the 400' mark, but to do it I have to throw the disc about 100' off the ground.

I finally hit the 400' mark, but to do it I have to throw the disc about 100' off the ground.



I don't believe you, you must be high!

Couldn't resist this old thread. With a beat to hell Blaze, I need about 30' or so of height to reach 400'. With a Spirit, it only takes about 15' or so to reach 400'.



I'd be able to relate more to this post if I had any idea what in the world a Blaze or a Spirit is and how they normally fly. And I'm willing to bet that a large majority of message boarders are equally as clueless.



They're both Gateway discs, and these days, most people at least recognize that fact. Gateway is coming on strong, and several touring pros that throw Gateway are winning tournaments, and placing well. If you still don't know, go to GDSTour.com

Keep the gateway ads inside the gateway threads.

I can throw 400' with less than 15' in height. I play a fairly short and difficult woods course, where I have no use for a 400' drive.

That wasn't meant as an ad. I was just responding to someone who for an unknown reason had never heard of those particular discs. Sheesh...its not like I was giving complete disc descriptions here.

I know that the discs you mentioned are Gateway discs, but very few people would know thier flight characteristics. I'll assume the Blaze and Spirit are long distance drivers, not mid range discs. Are they overstable? Understable? What Innova or Discraft discs do they compare to? Orc? Beast? Flash? Crush? Are you releasing these discs flat, or with anhyzer?

I'm not trying to knock Gateway, I just don't think that most people are familiar with thier discs and flight characteristics. It would be the same situation if it was the DGA Tsunami or Riptide.

I have heard of alot of Gateway discs: Speed Demon, Illusion, Wizard, Spirit, Sabre, Blaze, but I know very little about them. I don't mind being pointed to a site that has info on them at all : ) It would be helpful to know discs they compare to too. Specially when learning the disc height people use to throw them far.

The only thing bad I have heard about Gateway is that the discs are all overstable (even the understable ones), and are not good for beginners.

So I would imagine that a big arm pro or MA1 player could love Gateway discs.

Secondly, I have seen their bags and know why everyone raves about them. I think they are better then Revolution, especially for the price. Who wants to drag around a $120 bag in the mud and rain?

I really have no answer to your question, as I cannot throw quite 400', yet. I just wanted to post that I am from South Dakota. I have to get South Dakota out on this web page. It is becoming huge here and I, too, am a huge fan of this sport.

I think 30' will get me 400' D. My normal/consistant drive on a football field is 300-320' (real D, not message board D). If I was throwing from a tee elevated 30' I could get 400' all day long. :D:cool::)

My longest throw ever was a DeLa on the Top of the World hole. I throw lefty back hand and I accidentally turned over a beast and it sailed over the road, over the parking lot and 70-80' past the practice basket. I suppose that must have been 700-800'. :o

At the OctoberFriz Distance competition (Winfield KS) this year the shots I saw go over 420ft were the same, very tight reverse S shots. The annys & hyzers came up short. I threw 421ft there with a Z Flash, slight hyzer release 25 ft up that resulted in a tight helix line, not bad D for a Master. Coda H. from Oklahoma won the distance competition with over 500 ft.

The D I'm getting is due to hours of practice throws and this new plastic sure helps too. I throw mostly tbirds & firebirds during rounds but the new disc designs will definately get you more distance. I just don't trust them yet.

I have heard of alot of Gateway discs: Speed Demon, Illusion, Wizard, Spirit, Sabre, Blaze, but I know very little about them. I don't mind being pointed to a site that has info on them at all : ) It would be helpful to know discs they compare to too. Specially when learning the disc height people use to throw them far.



Thats just the thing...the molds are 100% unique and can't be compared too much to other discs. If I had to, here goes:

Speed Demon - Extreme/Monster
Spirit - FireBird/Talon
Illusion - Flick/Orc
Sabre - TeeBird
Blaze - Eagle/Longer, Faster Roc
Wizard - Better Aviar
Element - Beat in Roc
Demon - Whippet on steroids

The thing with the Spirit and the Illusion, is they are really great beat in. A slightly broken in "H" Illusion and a slightly broken in "E" Spirit can easily be thrown 400' with only 15' of height, where as Sabres/Blazes can reach 400' but need 25'-30' of height. Interesting thing about Sabres, is that thrown right, they have almost zero fade, and can BOOM. Just ask Shawn Sinclair...he can throw one over 600'.

I really have no answer to your question, as I cannot throw quite 400', yet. I just wanted to post that I am from South Dakota. I have to get South Dakota out on this web page. It is becoming huge here and I, too, am a huge fan of this sport.



Alright, another fellow South Dakota Disc Golfer on the boards!

You have a PM!

PT Woods
# 20431

I have only thrown 400' a couple times. I did so with a 150 class valkrye at probably 30' of height. Hyzer release with a flip into reverse S curve.
It could have been higher than 30', but 40 or 50' is a long way up there. I understand telephone poles to be about 50' tall? Maybe that's a good reference for other estimators.

To add to the H-Spirit comments.

I recieved a new H-Spirit from Cameron Rauenhorst this past spring. The disc was more stable than any speed demon I have thrown. It was such a fun disc, I could get it past the 400ft mark thrown really high (probably 50-60 feet), or I could take it down as low as 10-15ft and still get it there.

As long as you can generate a good pop of power, and you understand (and can control) release angles, the disc will do some crazy things. And as it beats in, it starts to gain glide, which makes it more fun.

I would suggest any player who has sufficient power and form and can throw firebirds, predators, or monsters really far to buy one and play around it with it.

was just curious...

to those who can throw over 400' consistently...

1) how much height do you use on drives > 400'? <font color="red">It depends on the disc...But generally speaking 10'-25' </font>
2) what state is your "home course" in? <font color="red">CALI </font>

am curious of the results... as well as if this supports the idea of "midwest D" <font color="red">SOCAL D </font>

[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
was just curious...

to those who can throw over 400' consistently...

1) how much height do you use on drives > 400'? <font color="red">typically 8-12ft, Orcs and Beasts do not need to be thrown high </font>
2) what state is your "home course" in? <font color="red"> Alabama, for those who played here, there are only 2 holes in the state that is over 700ft. Plus most of these courses are wooded. Not alot of big arms here. </font>