ok whats the ruling when you throw your disc into the basket, it goes in, but due to the basket being warped or what not, the disc ends up going through the basket.

would one just count the toss as is, or have to add another shot due to the disc sliding through the basket?

It's not in even if your whole group observed the disc go into the basket and drop through. I remember a tournament in Austin, MN in the early 90s when they had cone baskets. Tom Hauserman, a rules guy from Iowa, insisted that drop thrus didn't count as in. After that event, they wired the basket gaps to prevent drop thrus until they finally got Mach baskets.

thanks for the info chuck!

ypu gonna be at the fmt tourny this year?

I'm not doing too many tourneys this year except doubles when I have time. FYI- there's a new 9-hole course going in the Adrian campground out your way about an hour west. The listing just went in the PDGA Course Directory today. The baskets should be in the ground for play by this coming weekend.

As far as I know, if a disc falls thru the bottom of the basket it counts as a completed putt.

In sanctioned play, I saw a player throw his disc and it got stuck in the side of the basket, it counted as a completed putt also.

803.12 confirms that the disc must be in the chains or suspended by the basket to be holed out if you're using a basket target. Holed Out is also a term defined in the Glossary.

As far as I know, if a disc falls thru the bottom of the basket it counts as a completed putt.

Then you must not know much. :D
803.12 Holing Out
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. <font color="red">The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.</font>

As far as I know, if a disc falls thru the bottom of the basket it counts as a completed putt.

In sanctioned play, I saw a player throw his disc and it got stuck in the side of the basket, it counted as a completed putt also.




silly silly Okie.....

it COUNTS, as 1 more stroke on your scorecard!!!

I played a tournament a few years ago where the course had old old old baskets where most of them had wire across the gaps. The TD made it clear that any putt that fell out through a gap COUNTED. I guess if it's a known problem inherent to the basket, then the TD should make the call and make it clear from the start.

Yes, TD Stipulations, can change many a thing......

I have seen someone burned by a really old basket, that your disc can freely pass through a hole in the basket.....

TD wasnt as nice, in this tournament, to pre-call it OK.

quote]803.12 Holing Out
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. <font color="red">This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section </font>but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.

[/QUOTE]

-"This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section"- So does this include a disc hanging from the rim of the lower entrapment section?(if possible)

Yes it includes a disc hanging on the outside of the lower entrapment section, but not a disc hanging on the outside of the upper section.

Nor a disc wedged into the top, the part that suspends the chains.

What if the baskets are older and aged and the disc goes through the bottom of the bucket?

If it doesn't stay in the basket until it is removed, It doesn't count as holed out.

We have argued a hypothetical for # 11 at Jimmy Porter. The chains are, as best as I can describe, droopy. They hang about a foot and a half below the bottom of the basket near the pole. They droop but don't actually touch the ground. So the question is...

If your disc was somehow supported by the chains hanging under the basket, would that count as legally holed out?

This should be an issue concerning an approved basket, or a basket meeting specifications, in need of calibration. IMHO

I agree, the basket is improper, but that doesn't speak to the argument. There is a tourney there next weekend. Seeing as though that basket has been that way for almost 2 years, I doubt it will be fixed by then. What if someone during the tourney encounters this problem? What should happen to them? What would you say if you were on the card? What if it was your putter and that stroke was very important? What if Kerry got elected? What if the BoSox broke the curse? What if the Cowboys win a game this year? What if.. sorry, I got carried away. I guess stick to the relevant questions.

I was playing a local course challenge and had a 35 footer from below the basket and through some trees softly go to the bottom of the basket in front of the pole and chains, skimmy slowly across the bottom of the basket, and then CLIMB (it didn't have enough momentum to climb so 'levitate' might be a better term) up the far side of the basket and gently fall out on the other side.
I asked my group if they'd stroke me if I threw the disc as far into the woods as possible since it was obviously possessed :Dbut got no such permission :D

not that I am superstitious about such stuff, but I take back what I said about that disc. It was obviously a mometary lapse of the Earth's gravitational field and the disc itself was not at fault.

I agree, the basket is improper, but that doesn't speak to the argument. There is a tourney there next weekend. Seeing as though that basket has been that way for almost 2 years, I doubt it will be fixed by then. What if someone during the tourney encounters this problem? What should happen to them? What would you say if you were on the card? What if it was your putter and that stroke was very important?



I know that basket well, and I think it has been like that for more than two years. :confused: If that happened on my card, I would be very tempted to say it counts since it is supported by the chains. I think we all know that is probably not the right call. Let's just make sure that Bryan James covers that particular basket during the player's meeting. :cool: Isn't that #12?

maybe a local player with his/her own basket can bring it to the tourny so they can use it durning the round to solve this problem temp.? just a thought

803.12 Holing Out
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it <font color="red">must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections </font> . This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.



the big word here is "or". since the disc must be supported by the chains OR contained within the entrapment sections, I would fully argue that a disc suspended by chains below the basket would count.

unfortunately the big issue here is that the basket simply shouldnt be in the kind of shape it's in, since it's obviously NOT legal in its current condition. Until it's fixed though, I would say play the rule and consider yourself holed out.

I asked a similar question of the rules committee. Here is my question, their reply, and my reply in return. It seems that the attitude was "oh well thats the way it is written, too bad for you" rather than a concern for a rule that may need some revision.

QUESTION:
I recently played in a tournament in which I had to take a stroke because my disc fell through the basket. I made my putt. The disc fell solidly into the basket and then onto the ground through the bottom of the basket. Two of us saw it drop through and examined the basket. The basket had not been broken, it was built that way. I have looked in the rules and at the basket specifications, but have not found anything regarding this situation. Shouldn't it be specified that the basket should be able to support a regulation disc? What is the ruling on this? I do not feel anyone should have to be penalized for faulty equipment.

REPLY:
Dear Jeff,


The rules of play are very clear. I usually sum them up with a simple rhyme. "If it ain't in, putt again." Which is obviously the way you played it at your most recent tournament.

It's regrettable but that's the best way to handle "fall throughs". (Sure, your group was there to witness it, but as we all know that doesn't happen on every hole, there are times when there are no witnesses to putts.)

I don't have much to do with the Technical Standards, though I did copy that committee chair on this note, but stating that a basket should hold all available discs won't solve the rules issue....since all manufactured products would still run the risk of "normal production deviations". EVEN if tech standards called for it, there'd likely still be some baskets sold that had a deviation and would still allow fall throughs, not to mention the issue of how to deal with all the existing baskets. So, the rule, as stands is probably the best way to handle it.

The burden of making baskets "fall through proof" lies squarely on the TD and the local players. Most locals should know which baskets have that potential and the local powers that be (usually the TD or the club) should make necessary adjustments. This is generally done with additional wire, as after market add ons.

Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman

RETURN REPLY:
I understand the ruling, but I am not sure why that is the best way to handle "fall throughs." Your explaination regarding witnesses doesn't really make sense. There are several rules already on the books where rulings are detemined by "a majority of the group or an official." Why is this determination not a possiblility for this situation? At least my penalty would come down to a matter of luck rather that faulty equipment and poor maintenece.

it stinks to have to take a stroke for that, but by keeping the rule the way it is the committee doesnt have to worry about people finding loopholes by "loosening" up the rule and allowing group majority or any other such thing determine whether or not the putt was good. The easiest way to know that is if the disc stays in the basket or chains.

Seems to me your peeve should be directed at the TD/Course Director, since the onus is on them to make sure any faulty equipment on the course is maintained/adjusted with additional wire to prevent such fall-outs as Carlton suggested.

That rule is almost as STUPID as the 2 Meter rule which needs to be done away with as well. So your telling me that i make a perfect put and because someone made a crappy basket my putt doesnt count.

Seems to me like the basket was regulation for sactioned played and shouldnt be part of the tournament in the first place.

REPLY:
Dear Jeff,


The rules of play are very clear. I usually sum them up with a simple rhyme. "If it ain't in, putt again." Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman




what kind of respones is that"if it ain't in putt again

did your kid give you that one ?

Must have because that doesnt even Rhyme??? :o

I think it rhymes where Carlton is from. :D

If you let the card start deciding putt status based on equipment problems then you risk:

That putt was in, but those shallow baskets let it slide out the back. That's an equipment problem, we'll give you that one.

Solid chains, but they split apart and let the disc slide through. It should have stayed in. That's an equipment problem, we'll give you that one.

Must have hit a bolt and bounced straight back out. That's an equipment problem, we'll give you that one.

Plus standards for what is good vs bad will be different in each area.

The current rule leaves no ambiguity, no room for interpretation.

i've had discs go throught the chaines no biggy
i've had discs bounce out of the bottom of the basket.no biggy
i've had discs hit the pole and bounce back out.no biggy
i've had discs land on top of the basket.no biggy

ok no one likes these things to happen but they do, i can live with that. but for a disc to simply fall through the bottom of the basket because it's a peace of junk or old or needs to be fixed etc.etc. is just wrong.and if this is a known issued it should be fixed before a tourny or brought up at the players meeting at the very least.

I have to agree with that.

The course needs to be up to certain standards before a sanctioned event is held there. Making sure the baskets are in a decent state of repair before the tournament is the responsibility of the TD. All baskets need to be repaired and ready for play.

But in the real world, sometimes a leaky basket doesn't get wired shut. And a putt that falls through the bottom is no good.

Blame the TD, don't change the rule. Better yet, take some bailing wire and fix that basket between rounds yourself. :)

Fixing it is fine if it is a one course event. If there is one division that is split, you whould leave the basket broken until everyone gets the chance to play it an equal number of times.

A disc falling through a defective basket is such an arbitrary occurrence that I would support fixing it as soon as it was discovered. One guy getting screwed is enough. It would be like saying don�t through sand on that slimy teepad because we want to see if someone else in the round (or event) is going to break their neck.

Well, not exactly like, but you get the idea�

A disc falling through a defective basket is such an arbitrary occurrence that I would support fixing it as soon as it was discovered. One guy getting screwed is enough. It would be like saying don�t through sand on that slimy teepad because we want to see if someone else in the round (or event) is going to break their neck.

Well, not exactly like, but you get the idea�



WOW :eek:
i agree with everything nick just said. :D

Wouldn't that be like removing an obstacle that existed before the round?

If one player (and maybe more before him) had a putt fall through the bad basket, isn't it fair that every player be required to putt into a similar basket?

If the effected player was to fix the problem, then he would be screwing himself by preventing any other player from picking up a stroke for the same course related problem.

It is the TD's job to fix it before the tournament starts, but once started, the course should remain the same until all competitors in the same division play that course.

i can see your point as well this happened at the memorial where four groups played hole four than a kid was hit so they moved the basket and the rest of the players play a much easier hole position,so the other player had to go back and replay the hole in fairness to them.

It is totally wrong to be stroked for a falty basket. IMO. There are no faulty baskets at the 7 courses I frequent. Maybe its an Okie problem, I have noticed those Faulty baskets on most of the OK courses I have played. Had mine fall straight thru at Will in OKC on #2 and there was bailing wire on it. Would be nice for the course pro to point out the baskets to the TD everytime so it can be dealt with up front. IMO.

This is nice. This is what I was looking for. ADULT conversation. I sent my question to the Rules Committee CHAIRMAN and what I got was a condecending response. It gets worse, too. Here is his latest response:

Jeff,

Well, you'd need enough witnesses there to ensure that the disc did actually fall through...as opposed to bouncing out. Unfortunately, many players walk away from the basket after their putts have been canned...leaving only the thrower behind for that last easy putt. Seems like most of my fall throughs happen on real simple, short putts. When that happens, with no witnesses....raw deal. Too, what about an ace situation? "Dude, that fell through!" "Naw man, it bounced out." There can be no question when one uses the "ain't in, putt again" philosophy.

In general, we try to eliminate as many judgement calls as possible. This is an easy one to eliminate.

take care,

chh
__________________________________________________
Dude, I guess all disc golfers are dope-smoking morons that can't interpret rules correctly. May as well give up on this whole "raising the bar, disc golf is a professional sport" thing, since we are all just a bunch of imbeciles.
Last time I contacted the PDGA I got the same sort of response. I was talked down to by Carlton. He contradicts himself too..."Seems like most of my fall throughs happen on real simple, short putts. When that happens, with no witnesses....raw deal." You know what? It is a raw deal either way as the rules stand.
If the PDGA is wondering why membership is down, maybe they should check out how they interact with their members.

i don't think you should get stroked either but what can you do :confused:

jeff dude :D
this guy sounds like he was a extra in a cheece and chong movie,i wouldn't expect any adult conversation from this guy

I don't always agree with Carlton, but he does have a point. You can not treat close in putts differently than aces (blind aces count too). If the disc stays in the basket until it is removed, it counts. If it manages to bounce/fall/climb out before it is removed, it doesn't count.

If you look at the rule from the point of view that you need one method that leaves no room for argument for all "disc in the basket" situations, there is really no other option.

803.12 HOLING OUT B
"� In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections."

The procedure for holing out is clear. When a disc goes through the basket it's a problem for the TD to deal with by fixing the basket, not the PDGA rules committee, IMHO.

There's a non-approved basket at a course near here. We have fun making sure to putt into the right side of the basket, because the disc usually falls out of the other side. It's like a directional target (http://www.dolf.com/catching/index.htm).

Jeff you got ripped off, I saw it, I was there.....Jeff your putt was a ten foot gimmee, it was an old mach I basket, it wasnt damaged, it wasnt altered, your disc just fell through the bottom.
:(
an analogy would be if in ball golf the sod around the hole is slightly raised and on short soft putts it veers the ball away from the hole at the last instant. (excuse # 7 on why you didnt make par) i blame the course conditions controlled by the course owners/maintainers... so in your case, jeff the TD should have taken care of that situation, especially after hearing about the same thing the previous day. and that double sucks cause the TD is a friend of mine :( :(

Actually I think that it is more like fixing chains that are hung up on the chain support device. Or kicking the tee pad material around prior to teeing off. But you could be right.

It's those NorCal Series baskets, Stoops. Some (if not most) of them need to be retired or repaired. The same thing happened next weekend at the NorCal Championships. They are the baskets we love to hate.

With that said, I can't see changing the rule just because there are crappy baskets in play. I agree that it's up to the TD to provide a course that is tournament quality from the tee pads to the baskets.

Are Ching baskets legal to use in B Tiers?

It is listed as an approved target.

Approved Disc and Target list (http://www.pdga.com/documents/tech_standards/PDGA_approved_discs_and_targets.pdf) (targets are on the last page)

Note the M-14 is listed as a (Practice Target), and the Skill Shot is not.
I think the Skill Shot legal for tournament play.

Actually Gary, I read that as both are approved for tournament play. As of right now, there are no requirements on B-tier events and disc golf targets. But I have never seen a Ching target used in a tournament yet. Have you?

I don't remember ever seeeing one.

I didn't know they were on the list until I checked it out for this question.