Question :

I have been noticing so many new discs coming out in the market lately that it made me wonder. How many discs in the past 25 years or so can be considered truly innovative and groundbreaking for the sport, rather than just a small tweak here or a small tweak there to make a disc only slightly different than previous discs in the market?

Also, which discs would you consider to be the most important to the development of the game in the past 20 years?

Just curious

"Disc" Doug

the aviar, roc, and aero are all legends.

Court of the Crimson King
Freak Out by Zappa
Led Zep I, II, III, IV
The first Stooges album
any Hendrix album
First 2 or 3 Ramones albums
Armed Forces by Elvis Costello
Orden Satani by Korrozia Metalla

Don't forget Dark Side of the Moon

But on the subject, the Roc and Aviar are definites, the Cyclone might be in there as well.

Also, which discs would you consider to be the most important to the development of the game in the past 20 years?



1. Eagle/Aero

The disc behind Patent 4,568,297, the Aero was responsible for the rule that a disc must be released and in general circulation 30 days prior to a World DG Championship in order to be used in it. This rule came out of the '83 WDGC in Huntsville, where a new, high tech disc, the Aero, was easily obtainable in certain parts of the country well before the event and was not in other parts. Even though it was available for purchase at the WDGC, it was felt that competitors who had had the disc for some time before that had an "unfair" advantage. After some discussion, it was decided to allow players to use the Aero, and the 30-day rule was put in place before the '84 Worlds in Rochester.

2. Aviar

3. SM Roc

Dont forget the epic which will b remembered for the longest upside down flight and the infamous corkscrew.

But in all seriousness i believe it was the valk that introduced the wide-rimmed driver revolution(correct me if im wrong :o)

I was thinkin' of the Valk as well, it's still a favorite disc for many.

Do you consider the Valk to have a significantly wider rim than the Eagle or the Firebird? There doesn't seem to be much difference to me but my eyes aren't what they used to be. What classes of rim width are there? I always thought the first really wide rim was the Beast and that it came about as a process of increasingly wider rims and wasn't really that much wider than other discs, just another step up.

I just went and checked the PDGA list and if I read the numbers correctly (you never know with me) it looks like:

modern Eagle 1.7 cm (introduced in 99)
Dragon 1.8
Banshee 1.8 (introduced in 98)
Firebird 1.9 (introduced 3/00
Valk 1.9 (introduced 8/00)
Beast 2.0

Talon 1.8
Predator 1.9
Wildcat 1.9
Crush (not on list) but I bet it is 2.0 or 2.1

If this is true where is the demarcation? Wouldn't it really be the Eagle/Aero? It's rim was 1.0 and there are a lot of discs between 1.0 and 1.7 cm. Where would you draw the line saying wide rimed discs started here? Just Curious.

As for my hands the difference to that really wide feel occurs with the Beast. but I don't think I would claim it to be a breakthrough in terms of disc technology.

On the other hand, all-in-all I do agree, that wide rimed feel does make a difference. I get a better grip and throw off of the > 1.9 cm discs than those of lesser width.

BTW - What, no Aerobie? :D

I agree with Felix: Eagle/ Aero, Aviar, and SM Roc.
Aviar and Roc are still the two greatest discs made.

Cyclone-1993

THE long range driver/roller for several years
And since I was 15, that's what everyone I ever knew that played,say that they used, before I even played! That's the disc I heard about. And, just like Aviars, Aeros, etc.,people still use them, and successfully. In the same plastics/molds, in some cases.

Aviar, Roc, Cyclone

I tend to agree with Lyle on the rim issue. I never really noticed a difference gripping drivers until the release of the Beast. If a line was to be drawn, I would say the Beast starts the wide rims. However, the numbers clearly show its not a innovation, but just a trend.

aviar, cyclone, roc, ??J-Bird tye-die??

Midnight Flyer 70 mold, Kitty Hawk, Eagle / Aero, Aviar, P38, Cyclone, and the Roc.

I remember people commenting on the wide rim of the Firebird when it first came out.

The first golf disc ever the DGA Night Flyer mold 40, it�s first cause it was the first..... :D, basically a Whamo-mold with some extra weight.
Second place/ The first small diameter heavy weight discs made especially for golf (and distance), like the Super Puppy and Kitty Hawk 21cm :p
On third place the first beveled discs Eagle/aero from Innova Champion!!! :D
What�s been happening after that, Aviar, Roc and so on, was just "variations of the basic theme" ( F.Z " Be-bop Tango")

OK, here is a summary so far : (correct me if wrong)

It appears the consenus is first there was the

1 - DGA Midnight Flyer mold 40

mainly because it was heavier than the sports discs on the
market, used mainly in golf.

2 - Super Puppy

it has a smaller diameter and heavier. Goes farther.

3 - First Innova Eagle / Aero

First disc with a beveled edge.

4 - Aviar / Roc

comments or suggestions on what made these discs
innovative at the time?

5 - Cyclone

???

6 - At some point, are we saying that the trend has been to wider
rims ? The discs mentioned so far are the Second Innova
Eagle, the Valkyrie, and the Beast.

Also, it seems to me that discs are leaning more towards a lower profile, or real thin discs that are fast out of the hand. A good example would be the Talon or Beast.

Did I leave any out? Are there any other trends in new discs and where do you see us going from here??

Doug

BTW - What, no Aerobie? :D



The Aerobie is a flying ring, not a disc. I've never seen anyone try to play with one (casual round, since they're not PDGA approved), but I'm sure someone out there has tried. All I'll say about the Aerobie is, it probably epitomizes the rule, "Goes the wrong way, goes a long way." :D

Didn't Scott Zimmerman throw an Aerobie some crazy distance like over 1000 feet?

I believe the Whammo frisbee was very innovative. uh huh...yep yep

ive had one good aerobie throw in 20 years. Over 900 feet!!!! sweet. As for disc innovation.....how about something as simple as the candy plastic!!! Now that was an innovation. Other than that I would have to say the original cobra was a pretty big step at the time. A big domey driver that could really carry and handle some torque. I sure am glad that we got away from the big driver days (scorpions, barracudas, ravens) Now that was a step in the wrong direction I think. What was the max weight on those??? 186???

Here's the discraft side of things...

Discraft Sky-Star (1982) - Discraft's first disc manufactured for the sport of Disc Golf

Discraft Phantom (1984) - First disc ever in high durrability candy plastic.

Discraft Cruiser (1984) - First ever wide rimmed overstable distance golf disc.

Discraft Eclipse (1989) - An originator for todays sharp edged high speed drivers.

Discraft Cyclone (1993) - Revolutionizes extra long range drivers with return of highly durable plastics

Discraft X-Clone (1995) - A modified Cyclone set a world distance record 1995

Discraft XL (1998) - Pushes extra long range drivers & sets a world distance record in 1998.

Discraft XS (2000) - Makes golf holes even shorter by setting a new world distance record in 2001.

roc , ce-valk ,ORC

speed demon----HELLO

Yeah pretty much all the Gateway discs are revolutionary...although they haven't caught on yet :cool:

The Teebird. It still rocks. Ask Climo.

PT Woods
# 20431

Discraft X-Clone (1995) - A modified Cyclone set a world distance record 1995

Discraft XL (1998) - Pushes extra long range drivers & sets a world distance record in 1998.

Discraft XS (2000) - Makes golf holes even shorter by setting a new world distance record in 2001.



Hmm ... I thought it was Stokely and Voigt that set the record, not the disc. Apparently these discs are self-propelled???? :D:D:D

Here's a couple that might have been missed... how about the venerable P-38 lightning. Didn't it come out shortly after the Aero and prior to another, IMHO, definitive disc, the Stingray? Both of those discs were very popular around here before something better came along.

Do any of y'all remember LIghtning's F-15 Eagle? It had a fairly wide rim, much more than any other disc in its time. Released, I recall in the late 1980s. russ3523 :cool:

Fom the perspective of a relatively new (5 years and counting) player, I'd have to say Pink Cyclones, X-Clones, and the XL. I think the X-Clone was significant because of the flight plate shape.

Yeah pretty much all the Gateway discs are revolutionary...although they haven't caught on yet :cool:



**** straight. Gateway molds are original, and very effective- Even if you (and you know who you are) don't agree!!! ;)

wellll......the Wizard wasn't very original, but how for can you go with a putter design! (Arrow excluded)

Discraft X-Clone (1995) - A modified Cyclone set a world distance record 1995

Discraft XL (1998) - Pushes extra long range drivers & sets a world distance record in 1998.

Discraft XS (2000) - Makes golf holes even shorter by setting a new world distance record in 2001.



Hmm ... I thought it was Stokely and Voigt that set the record, not the disc. Apparently these discs are self-propelled???? :D:D:D



Funny cause I took most of that info right off the Discraft site. :confused: :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif :D :D:cool::mad::o

Here's a couple that might have been missed... how about the venerable P-38 lightning. Didn't it come out shortly after the Aero and prior to another, IMHO, definitive disc, the Stingray? Both of those discs were very popular around here before something better came along.

Do any of y'all remember LIghtning's F-15 Eagle? It had a fairly wide rim, much more than any other disc in its time. Released, I recall in the late 1980s. russ3523 :cool:



Of course I remember the Eagle F15!! :cool:A classic!

FZ Rules! :D

I'm nearing my 7th year of playing DG and for me the XL seemed to add some "right out o' th' box" distance. :p
The Rhyno is an important part of my approach game and IMO, very innovative! :cool:

can we say valk?

the disc that holds the worlds distance record deserves a mention

as stupid as this might sound...what about the eagle. When that 1st came out, it made almost everyone I know change their throwing style. It seemed to be the 1st disc that you really could snap hard and watch it glide forever. Eagle and TeeBird were a huge step for this sport I feel.

Court of the Crimson King
Armed Forces by Elvis Costello




King Crimson was better with Adrian Belew IMO.

I think This Year's Model was the innovative Elvis album (although Armed Forces is great, too).

Question :
I have been noticing so many new discs coming out in the market lately that it made me wonder. How many discs in the past 25 years or so can be considered truly innovative and groundbreaking for the sport, rather than just a small tweak here or a small tweak there to make a disc only slightly different than previous discs in the market?

Also, which discs would you consider to be the most important to the development of the game in the past 20 years?

Just curious

"Disc" Doug



For your first question, there is really only one. The original Eagle/Aero. It was innovative in design and everything since then has been a variation on its leading edge.

As for your second question (important discs and influential discs) there are several. My opinion here is Aviar, Roc, Cyclone, Viper/Whippet.

Does anyone know how many patents there are relating to disc golf discs? If there is a patent for something, does that necessarily make it an innovation? I would say one innovation might be a new kind of plastic but you probably would not be able to patent it. And it might not make it fly any different either.

Doug

There are currently 7 patents related to disc golf disc, with 2 pending.

What are they?

Just curious.

Doug

What are they?



* Frisbee Patent 1966
* Mach I Patent 1977
* Bevel-edged Disc Patent 1983
* Mach II Patent 1984
* Mach III Patent 1988
* Mach V Patent 1999
* ?????

* Ching Excelerator (pending)
* Directional Catching Target (pending)

Steady Ed also patented the parabolic chain configuration in the mid'70s, but the patent was essentially voided by in US District Court as functional (and therefore not protectable). The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the lower court ruling on appeal.

I believe there's also a patent for Innova's Thumtrac.

isn't there also one for Gateways Hyper-Lift technology?

Innova's Phoenix! This disc helped Sam Ferrans get in the record books. And they used to float in water!

C.P.I. All-Star Saucer Tosser. Circa 1975. Best flying old-school 'frisbee' ever. Had a turned under lip that no other disc of the time ever had. Precursor of today's golf discs, in a way. Whammo bought the company and that was the end of CPI. They should have just put their logo on 'em and kept using the mold, but they were too stupid. These discs flew farther and straighter than anything available at the time (and for years to come) of the same weight (about 119g), and were less affected by wind.
I guess CPI was 'too innovative' for their own good and Whammo felt threatened.

:mad:

This might be a really stupid question but, whats the deal with "eagle/aero" did they used to be the same disc? Were they released at the same time? whats the deal here?

thanks
:D

This might be a really stupid question but, whats the deal with "eagle/aero" did they used to be the same disc? Were they released at the same time? whats the deal here?

thanks
:D




take a look at the article "The Day Everything Changed" in the following link (it was the first place I could find on the web that still had a copy of this):

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Park/3039/discgolfnews10-98.htm

There was an article in the Disc Golf Journal about 10 years ago that detailed the most important golf discs in our history.
Maybe somone can find it and let us know what it said. It may have been the very last issue before Tom Schleuter pulled the plug.
BTW , Ed Headrick had about 20 US Patents, with only a few relating to discs.

This might be a really stupid question but, whats the deal with "eagle/aero" did they used to be the same disc? Were they released at the same time? whats the deal here?

thanks
:D




take a look at the article "The Day Everything Changed" in the following link (it was the first place I could find on the web that still had a copy of this):

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Park/3039/discgolfnews10-98.htm



Nice story..I haven't even got through all of it before posting and will read tomorrow..but I have a 1983 Worlds Pink Aero/Eagle? Can I consider that the prototype and/or 1st run?

nice story, and the first paragraph in the "raz" section right after that is about my home course! Double Bonus!! :D

I think that the Wildcat was a really revolutionary disc as it started the trend of fast, wide rimmed discs that can be crushed in a straight line for big distance, even by intermediate level disc golfers. I know it really helped my game when it came out and taught me to throw straight and flat for accurate golf distance rather than learning the touchy "anhyzer flex" distance shot that discs like the Valk and XS seem to require to go as far. After the Wildcat came the Beast/Crush/Orc/Flash all continuing on that trend and improving my game! These discs are influencing course design because almost anyone can throw over 300' in a straight line now.

This might be a really stupid question but, whats the deal with "eagle/aero" did they used to be the same disc? Were they released at the same time? whats the deal here?

thanks
:D




take a look at the article "The Day Everything Changed" in the following link (it was the first place I could find on the web that still had a copy of this):

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Park/3039/discgolfnews10-98.htm



Nice story..I haven't even got through all of it before posting and will read tomorrow..but I have a 1983 Worlds Pink Aero/Eagle? Can I consider that the prototype and/or 1st run?



Your avatar just got me in trouble at work. Dang, that's funny.

Your pink disc should be a first run Eagle. I don't know what the value is off the top of my head... upwards of $150 would be my guess (depending on condition).

The original Eagle should be worth $150, it's where it all began. In fact they should be worth more than a 2001 CE Roc, but they don't come close. Original Eagle will range in value b/t $60 and $100 on eBay.

I think that the Wildcat was a really revolutionary disc as it started the trend of fast, wide rimmed discs that can be crushed in a straight line for big distance, even by intermediate level disc golfers. I know it really helped my game when it came out and taught me to throw straight and flat for accurate golf distance rather than learning the touchy "anhyzer flex" distance shot that discs like the Valk and XS seem to require to go as far. After the Wildcat came the Beast/Crush/Orc/Flash all continuing on that trend and improving my game! These discs are influencing course design because almost anyone can throw over 300' in a straight line now.



I always thought the Wildcat was made to one-up the Valkyrie, just like the crush was made to one-up the beast. I believe the Wildcat is superior to the Valkyrie though.

Yeah, it did one-up the Valkyrie months before the "Valkyrie on steroids" (aka Beast) was released. :D

I think that the Wildcat was a really revolutionary disc as it started the trend of fast, wide rimmed discs that can be crushed in a straight line for big distance, even by intermediate level disc golfers.



From my perspective, as someone who went from the Xpress to LS to JLS to the XS to the Valk to the Archangel to the Wildcat to the Beast to the Starfire to the Crush to the Viking to the Orc, the Wildcat was simply another incremental step forward in the evolution of ultra-long distance drivers.

I would consider the Storm, which offers the profile and control of a midrange disc with the speed and distance of a driver, to be more innovative than the Wildcat.

The Wildcat was innovative in the fact that it can be delivered with speed in a straight line right at the target. The Valk, Archangel, and XS are no where near as fast out of the hand and favor gliding turnover flights for distance, thus making them much less consistent on the course across conditions. As far as the Storm goes (I got one when I registered with the PDGA) I find it to share similarities with many Innova discs that came out long before, specifically the Cobra.

The Wildcat was innovative in the fact that it can be delivered with speed in a straight line right at the target. The Valk, Archangel, and XS are no where near as fast out of the hand and favor gliding turnover flights for distance, thus making them much less consistent on the course across conditions.


For you, perhaps. For me, Valks were and still are faster out of the hand than Wildcats, and are much more consistent straight line-drive distance drivers.


As far as the Storm goes (I got one when I registered with the PDGA) I find it to share similarities with many Innova discs that came out long before, specifically the Cobra.

Ditto. The Cobra is nowhere near as fast, as long, or as stable for me as the Storm. The only time I would consider throwing a Cobra would be if I needed to throw a mid-range, hard turnover; I'll throw a Storm when I need to throw a 300' controlled line drive through a narrow gap.

I'll throw a Storm when I need to throw a 300' controlled line drive through a narrow gap.



Sounds a lot like the Ching! Sniper/Innova DX Gremlin. Shaped like a midrange, fast like a driver. A more stable Panther.

Are you talking about CE Valks? I was comparing the more recent Champion/JK pro Valks with Z-Wildcats. CE Valks were much faster, but still not as fast as the Z-Wildcat IMHO. Anyway, my 300' line drive disc is the Z-Buzz, which also deserves some mention on this thread...

Sounds a lot like the Ching! Sniper/Innova DX Gremlin. Shaped like a midrange, fast like a driver. A more stable Panther.



If memory serves, however, the Storm antedates the Gremlin. Also, unlike the Storm, which finishes straight, the Proline Gremlins I have thrown (I have 6) fade significantly at the end of their flight (I believe they're rated +2 low speed fade). Haven't thrown DX Gremlins or Ching! Snipers so I don't know whether they fade out at the end or finish straight.

However, my point is not that the Storm is necessarily innovative or revolutionary, but that, IMO, the Storm has more to commend it as an example of innovation than does the Wildcat. YOMV.

We were able to scrounge up an old article that appeared in one of the disc golf magazines, ( the one that is no longer in production) and the article is called "14 Discs that have Changed Disc Golf" written by Pierson and Monroe. Very interesting read but without posting the whole article, here are the 14 discs that were mentioned : (It stops at the XL)

It begins by mentioning that when they started playing disc golf, everyone used Wham-O Frisbees. The top two were the Pro and the All-American. Then Ed Headrick received a request to make some Glow in the Dark frisbees and they discovered that when they added the glow material, it added weight to the frisbee, which caused them to go further. They became the # 1 disc used for golf, and the first true disc golf discs.

So # 1 is :

1. Night Flyer (40 Mold)

2. 70 Mold (180 gram)

Had to throw with a lot of hyzer, but would go real far with a tail wind.

3. Puppy

Jan Sobel and Ben-Walt Plastics took the 40 Mold Midnite Flyer, downsized it to 21 cm. pumped it to 200 grams. Everyone loved it.

4. Gumbputt

Ed Headrick made a material change in the Puppy Mold and released his first Gumbputt disc. It was the first attempt to change the plastic material to aid in putting.

5. Eagle (Original)

Dave Dunipace brought Puppy Molds to San Diego's Morley Field that were modified : He glued a plastic ring around the edge to form a wedge shape. The result was the Eagle and the new bevelled edge for discs. The introduction of wedge technology.

6. Aviar

The Aviar came out after the Aero, which was Innova's improvement to the Eagle. It was special in its accuracy and its overstability. They called it the single best disc ever made for golf.

7. Roc

The original Roc was unique in its attempt to put a bead on its rim for stability. All the pros loved it.

8. Stingray

Now we begin to get to a lower wedge desing and sharpness. They were stable for most players.

9. P-38

Steve Howe formed Lightning Discs and came out with a significant contender to the distance wars with the P-38. The
P-38 had an extremely low profile and was very fast. It held the world distance record for a while until Sam Ferrans used an Innova Phenix to crush it.

10. Eclipse

Definitely the disc of the 80s. It was the most important disc to the average player and really put Discraft in the major leagues.

11. Whippet

It became the hands down winner in the mad rush to overstable technology.

12. Cyclone

Not since the Gumbputt, had a specific change in plastic made such a impact. The change in plastic made the disc more grip friendly. It was Discraft's best selling disc of all time.

13. Polaris LS 1.1

Millenium pushed the envelope with minimum size and maximum sharpness on the rim, plus the best grippy material.

14. XL

A slightly domed, less stable disc that floats forever. Scott Stokely used the disc to break the distance world distance record.

The article stops there as it is a few years old but it's interesting none the less.

Anyone want to add to it to bring it up to date?

I throw DX Gremlins as my primary <200-300 foot approach disc. When brand-spankin' new, they will fade a bit at the end, but once seasoned just a touch, they are arrow straight throughout the flight, even if thrown with "touch".

We were able to scrounge up an old article that appeared in one of the disc golf magazines, ( the one that is no longer in production) and the article is called "14 Discs that have Changed Disc Golf" written by Pierson and Monroe. Very interesting read but without posting the whole article, here are the 14 discs that were mentioned : (It stops at the XL)

It begins by mentioning that when they started playing disc golf, everyone used Wham-O Frisbees. The top two were the Pro and the All-American. Then Ed Headrick received a request to make some Glow in the Dark frisbees and they discovered that when they added the glow material, it added weight to the frisbee, which caused them to go further. They became the # 1 disc used for golf, and the first true disc golf discs.

So # 1 is :

1. Night Flyer (40 Mold)

2. 70 Mold (180 gram)

Had to throw with a lot of hyzer, but would go real far with a tail wind.

3. Puppy

Jan Sobel and Ben-Walt Plastics took the 40 Mold Midnite Flyer, downsized it to 21 cm. pumped it to 200 grams. Everyone loved it.

4. Gumbputt

Ed Headrick made a material change in the Puppy Mold and released his first Gumbputt disc. It was the first attempt to change the plastic material to aid in putting.

5. Eagle (Original)

Dave Dunipace brought Puppy Molds to San Diego's Morley Field that were modified : He glued a plastic ring around the edge to form a wedge shape. The result was the Eagle and the new bevelled edge for discs. The introduction of wedge technology.

6. Aviar

The Aviar came out after the Aero, which was Innova's improvement to the Eagle. It was special in its accuracy and its overstability. They called it the single best disc ever made for golf.

7. Roc

The original Roc was unique in its attempt to put a bead on its rim for stability. All the pros loved it.

8. Stingray

Now we begin to get to a lower wedge desing and sharpness. They were stable for most players.

9. P-38

Steve Howe formed Lightning Discs and came out with a significant contender to the distance wars with the P-38. The
P-38 had an extremely low profile and was very fast. It held the world distance record for a while until Sam Ferrans used an Innova Phenix to crush it.

10. Eclipse

Definitely the disc of the 80s. It was the most important disc to the average player and really put Discraft in the major leagues.

11. Whippet

It became the hands down winner in the mad rush to overstable technology.

12. Cyclone

Not since the Gumbputt, had a specific change in plastic made such a impact. The change in plastic made the disc more grip friendly. It was Discraft's best selling disc of all time.

13. Polaris LS 1.1

Millenium pushed the envelope with minimum size and maximum sharpness on the rim, plus the best grippy material.

14. XL

A slightly domed, less stable disc that floats forever. Scott Stokely used the disc to break the distance world distance record.

The article stops there as it is a few years old but it's interesting none the less.

Anyone want to add to it to bring it up to date?



Yes ..........and there it is !!!!!!!!!! Has been copied by just about everyone !!!!!!

6. Aviar

The Aviar came out after the Aero, which was Innova's improvement to the Eagle. It was special in its accuracy and its overstability. They called it the single best disc ever made for golf.

What can you say. :D

Thanks! Man would I love to read that article. Does anyone have a copy that is available or could be posted somewhere? Wouldn't it be great to be privy to the thought processes that went into those changes?

That article was in the last issue of Disc Golf Journal.
Maybe Tom Schleuter will put it/them on a web site?

disc doug, thanks for posting that. i remember reading that somewhere several years ago and found it very interesting. also, a couple of years ago i was trying to compile a similar list but with more indepth linking between design and flight trends but i'm not really well enough versed in disc history.

my early efforts yielded lists trying to trace flight path trends. the race to overstability which seems to have ended with the viper. the cyclone -> gazelle -> eagle, XL -> valkyrie/XS, etc.

looking at the designs and their related discs is easier, i.e. cyclone/cyclone 2/x-clone or gazelle/cheetah/banshee types of disc relationships. most of the discs of these families seemed to be more comperable to older designs. for example, i can compare the x-clone and banshee to the viper.

the newer trend seems to be a search for ways to prolong low speed fade until as late as possible in a disc's flight on fast, small diameter drivers. the disc i trace this to is the X2 (circa 97/98?). The X2 was the first "overstable" driver that i really differentiate from the older overstable drivers in that it was high speed stable, low speed overstable vs. discs like the x-clone, viper, pegasus, banshee, etc. the XL faded even later in its flight.

in my eyes, this is the disc that is responsible for a lot. while people who throw with more velocity than i do may differ in opinion, i compare discs like the x predator, beast, etc. more closely to this X2 than other "overstable" discs.

from more of a physical design aspect, there are a few trends in driver technology which seem to have nearly the impact on how people throw as "the bead" did back in the 80's.

the most recent trend seems to be discs with a very low profile and wide rim. the firebird was the first disc that i first thought "wow, that's wide" when i gripped it. however, i'm not sure if credit should go with this disc or the valkyrie for this trend as the valk was a new trend vs. the firebird stemming from the eagle (unless the valk came from say... the firebird + TL? wide/flat w/ no notch on the rim). the wildcat, beast, monster, etc. seem to stem from this trend.

another important factor seems to be the removal of the "notch" on the edge of the rim. most of the drivers from the 90's had this, which is a flat portion at the edge of the rim. as the driver design progressed, this "notch" got smaller until... up to the point where it no longer existed or could be filled in (think TL). the majority of the current drivers do not have this, with the last "family" of discs that shared it were the eagle/teebird/firebird. the first discs without this notch seem to be the XL, leopard, JLS, TL, etc. (it should be noted that the flash does have a "notch")

the last of the factors i seriously considered is the little "nub" (abrupt change in angle) on the bottom of the rim that can be found on a cyclone, X2, predator, etc. i can't say exactly what this does, but i'm guessing it must do something :p
this is possibly a "mini-bead" without as much air friction?

i'm guessing that the "notch" and "nub" have stabilizing properties but also increase air friction... if this is true, the result seems consistent with the newer drivers: removal of stabilizers requires an increase in disc cruise speed (flatter, lower profile rims, sharper noses, etc.) for the disc to fly stable and not to turn over due to excess velocity.

if this is the case, i have a feeling that this disc design trend may hit a plateau in the not too distant future simply because disc cruise speeds are limited by the speeds that players can actually throw. the next big step after the "speed limit" is reached will have to be focused on lift, glide/hover, etc. e.g. think of a much faster teebird type flyer. i can see the first major break-through in this department probably shattering whatever distance record is held at the time.

there are other innovations that didn't catch on as well but i'll mention them anyways as they may or may not have had their full potentials realized...
the thumtrac
the sabre's added mass on the flight plate
the aerobie epic's assymmetrical rim
grip rings
excelerator dimples (impact of design pending)

there are some discs i consider noteworthy that have come out in the past several years in a "wow, they don't do it like this anymore but here it is" type of way.
the xtra... in my opinion was a definite improvement on the banshee/x-clone type of discs
the talon... i link closely in the line of flight trend progression from the cyclone -> gazelle -> eagle -> talon and was an oddity amongst a lot of discs that were straying away from this.

for people who are interested in this type of thing, if you haven't seen it, christian voigt had compiled (a now out of date) list of most/all official throws over 170m http://www.dtworld.com/distance.htm
the earliest recorded throw is from 1987 and i'm not sure what disc it was.

Very interesting Blake. I printed out your post for a good reference on the evolution of discs. Keep it up and post updates.

Tom and I are working on posting the article somewhere - either his web site or the local club site. We'll let you know when its up. Maybe Tom and Snapper will update it one of these days. Tom told me he does not have enough to keep him busy these days. Poor guy ; ' )

Doug

thanks for the comments doug.

two things always stand out to me in disc design... first, general player throwing styles (especially among newer players) almost always cater to what is latest and greatest. second, there is no longer an archetype for "overstable."

4 years ago, overstable was simple... it bites hard left. now there seems to be a ryft between the traditional overstable and the newer overstable discs, which seem to stay straight much longer in their flight when thrown hard and aren't really comperable for most players. i'm not really sure what an adequate term would be to differentiate the two, nor have i found most people to care much.

also, i would be willing to host/mirror a copy of that article on my site...

I'm hoping that the new book DISCtionary will have all of this covered. Stancil's first book had a lot about frisbee's of the 60's and 70's.

I believe the record holder for distance in '87 was Sam Ferrans with a Phenix. Now that is a disc that doesn't fit today's models.

that'd be neat if the book does have it all.

according to that distance list, ferrans didn't break 170m it till 1988, and he did twice that year.

if i remember correctly from what someone told me a while ago, i think the discs that broke the record went something like (i'm not certain on the viper, but i do know it was thrown over 600' early in the 90's or late 80's):
p-38 -> phenix -> viper -> cyclone -> x-clone -> xl -> xs -> teebird (for about an hour) -> valkyrie

Frank Agulare (sp?) threw a Aero over 500' here at one of the mid 80's Nevada States. I think it was 547'. That was a record for while.

Frank Agulare (sp?) threw a Aero over 500' here at one of the mid 80's Nevada States. I think it was 547'. That was a record for while.

Frank Aquilera -Aero, great, one more piece of info to add to the list below. (I started some detective work a couple of years ago in preparation for an article on the evolution of distance discs and techniques. Another project that is still on the "to be completed list" ;) )

You're correct on the Viper Blake. I would guess that Pete Albers' 1993 entry was also set with a Viper since that was the distance disc for choice at that time, but I don't have that confirmed. See the list for what I have so far. The distances,dates and players are straight from the WFDF archives. More info, especially on the earlier records would be appreciated... <table border=1 cellpadding=5><tr><td colspan=5>World Distance records, progressive list, metric (1 m = 3.28 ft)</td></tr><tr><td>John Kirkland</td><td>USA</td><td> 83.23</td><td>8/25/74</td><td>-</td></tr>
<tr><td>Dave Johnson</td><td>USA</td><td>88.67</td><td>8/23/75</td><td>-</td></tr>
<tr><td>Dave Johnson</td><td>USA</td><td>125.57</td><td>7/24/76</td><td>-</td></tr>
<tr><td>John Kirkland</td><td>USA</td><td>135.3</td><td>4/30/78</td><td>-</td></tr>
<tr><td>Tetsuro Arita</td><td>JPN</td><td>152.4</td><td>5/4/80</td><td>-</td></tr>
<tr><td>P&aring;l Brostr&ouml;m</td><td>SWE</td><td>152.45</td><td>8/13/82</td><td>MF 70c, 159g</td></tr>
<tr><td>Morten Sandorff</td><td>DEN</td><td>166.42</td><td> 5/21/83</td><td>MS 70c</td></tr>
<tr><td>Frank Aquilera</td><td>USA</td><td>167.88</td><td>2/4/84</td><td>Aero</td></tr>
<tr><td>Michael Canci</td><td>AUS</td><td>186.83</td><td>4/11/87</td><td>Lightning (P38?)</td></tr>
<tr><td>Sam Ferrans</td><td>USA</td><td>190.07</td><td>7/02/88</td><td>Phenix</td></tr>
<tr><td>Peter Albers</td><td>USA</td><td>193.58</td><td>7/30/93</td><td>-</td></tr>
<tr><td>Niclas Bergehamn</td><td>SWE</td><td>197.38</td><td>8/11/93</td><td>Viper, 179g</td></tr>
<tr><td>Scott Stokley</td><td>USA</td><td>200.01</td><td>5/14/95</td><td>X-clone, 169g</td></tr>
<tr><td>Scott Stokley</td><td>USA</td><td>211.32</td><td>4/5/98</td><td>XL, 168g</td></tr>
<tr><td>Chris Voigt</td><td>GER</td><td>217.05</td><td>4/1/01</td><td>XS, 170g</td></tr>
<tr><td>Ken Jarvis </td><td>USA</td><td>247.00</td><td>4/26/02</td><td>DX Teebird</td></tr>
<tr><td>Christian Sandstr&ouml;m </td><td>SWE</td><td>250.00</td><td>4/26/02</td><td>DX Valkyrie, 168g</td></tr></table>

peter:

i'm fairly certain that i read somewhere once that the cyclone at least briefly held the distance record at 636'...
that's about all the info i have... but i think stokely threw it

Hmmm, that's really interesting Blake!
The Cyclone got PDGA approval in mid july 1993, which does leave a theoretical 3-week gap before Niclas 197.38m throw on 8/11/93 .

Theory 1: 636 ft would be very close (within less than 0.3 m) to Pete Albers' record from 7/30/93, could that be it? It does match the time frame...

Theory 2: The WFDF archives are not complete/correct. Could happen...

Theory 3: The throw you read about was not set under the circumstances that the WFDF distance rules specify. (Even ground, no trees or other obstacles on the field, proper competition, etc...) And was therefore just an inofficial record. E.g. a longest drive contest at a golf tournament, that's not always approved as a legal distance competition.

Theory 4: The throw was actually made after Niclas', but before the paperwork on his throw got sent from Sweden to WFDF headquarters, thus being thought the world record at the time although in reality already obsolete.

Anyone got more info on this? Are there any other oldtimer distance buffs around on the board these days? ;-)

Peter,
I've got a Brand X 40 Mold that has Victor Malafronte Distance Record Holder stamp on it. Brand X would be '80 / '81 time period.

Rob, My guess is that this refers to Victor's record in the Masters division, 118 m, set in 1981 according to his own book.

In the book he also lists himself holding the open division record, set at the first Octad tournament in 1974 with a 375ft (114.33m) forehand throw using a CPI all star, for just a few minutes before Dave Johnson borrowed one of Victor's CPIs to make a 378ft throw. And before that he also claims a 1970 92 yard throw to hold the record at that time. Neither of these are listed in the WFDF archives though (I got that list from Stork Roddick), and granted, I guess the archives from so far back might very well be incomplete. Any real old-oldtimers ;)out there who can confirm the record evolution made this early in our history?

after bit of research, the cyclone did not hold the D record.

I think Discraft claims that the Cyclone held 4 distance records.

I think the Gateway Speed Demon (Edge) has been the most recent innovation to come out (except the Epic). It came out almost a year before the Orc, and almost 6 months before the monster and beast. It was the first wide-rimmed disc. Also, the Hyper-lift technology is not just hype...The can be thrown 350' and not get over 4' off the ground (ive done it).

I think the Gateway Speed Demon (Edge) has been the most recent innovation to come out (except the Epic). It came out almost a year before the Orc, and almost 6 months before the monster and beast. It was the first wide-rimmed disc.



Ummmm, anybody remember the Phenix?

I think the Gateway Speed Demon (Edge) has been the most recent innovation to come out (except the Epic). It came out almost a year before the Orc, and almost 6 months before the monster and beast. It was the first wide-rimmed disc.



Ummmm, anybody remember the Phenix?



I DO!!! I DO!!! (Do I win a prize? :D)

I think the Gateway Speed Demon (Edge) has been the most recent innovation to come out (except the Epic). It came out almost a year before the Orc, and almost 6 months before the monster and beast. It was the first wide-rimmed disc.



Ummmm, anybody remember the Phenix?



Well I mean Beast-espue type drivers. The Phenix wasn't that wide! You know what I'm talking about.

I would bet that the records that Victor mentions are true and accurate. One of his World Record Frisbee's was on display at the Air and Space Museum for a few years.
The rest of the CPI story tells of how WhamO / Ed, fashioned the World Class 119 after it. All other WC Frisbee's were just bigger/heavier models, except for the few that were smaller. WhamO also did the all American business trick and flat out bought CPI and just quit making those pesky All Stars. The only disc they continued to make was the Gaint Saucer Tosser, as big as a garbage can lid
.Big business, ain't it great?

I wouldn't be surprised if someone doesn't break the Distance record w/ an Orc or flash sometime soon.

Those things are rediculous

I think Discraft claims that the Cyclone held 4 distance records.



Yeah, probably correct, I know it did hold at least the women, master and grand master distance records for a period in the mid to late 90's.

As other's have pointed out on this thread, it's hard to draw the line for exactly when the ultra fast wide rim drivers really emerged. I know the first "wow, that's fast!" experience I got was the Beast, which I personally think marks this point.
(Admittedly, I am not at all familiar with the Gateway discs)

Getting really big D with the Beast predecessors in the Valkyrie family, at least I have to throw them higher, not like the low flat fast nose down drive that works so well with the beast/crush/orc kind of modern discs.

Haven't had a chance to really test the Orc on the distance field yet. A distance throw is vastly different from a golf drive. So still sticking with my KC9x Teebirds for pure D. In the golf bag the Orc sure is a great complement to a KC9x/10x/Proline Teebird.

So does it matter which direction a distance throw goes? Because I seem throw a lot farther when my disc is going the wrong way. :D

How out of line are your throws lumbergh? If the field allows it, the throwing sector in distance competition is a full 180 degrees, so as long as you dont throw more than 90 degrees off the line you're safe... And yes, it's a well known law of nature regarding disc play that a throw the wrong way always flies the furthest. ;)

I was referring to the law of nature which you speak of. My long drives (always off-line) tend only to go 375, and that's with an Orc.

I must say that the throwing sector is quite generous though, to allow a full 180 degrees. Ball golf's distance competitions are much more strict. But then again, that whole sport is too strict.

On large rims, What about the Python? that was a monster lip.

Yeah, probably correct, I know it did hold at least the women, master and grand master distance records for a period in the mid to late 90's.

As other's have pointed out on this thread, it's hard to draw the line for exactly when the ultra fast wide rim drivers really emerged. I know the first "wow, that's fast!" experience I got was the Beast, which I personally think marks this point.
(Admittedly, I am not at all familiar with the Gateway discs)

Getting really big D with the Beast predecessors in the Valkyrie family, at least I have to throw them higher, not like the low flat fast nose down drive that works so well with the beast/crush/orc kind of modern discs.

Haven't had a chance to really test the Orc on the distance field yet. A distance throw is vastly different from a golf drive. So still sticking with my KC9x Teebirds for pure D. In the golf bag the Orc sure is a great complement to a KC9x/10x/Proline Teebird.



I think that the Z-Wildcat was the first step in the wide-rimmed direction as it was faster and more stable than the Valkyrie, with a wider rim. When the Wildcat and Predator came out, they had the widest rims on the market for probably 6 months or so.

from Dimpled Chings (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=201350&Searchpage=0&Main=200383&Search=true&#Post201350)
Have you guys looked at the picture of the CHING disc (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=180791&Searchpage=0&Main=179020&Search=true&#Post180618)? It's not dimples like that at all. It is an attempt at a variable speed-determined thumb-trac effect.



Actually Rhett, I suspect this technology offers improvement in 3 phases:

1st is high speed flight where the spoiler effect kicks in. 2nd is during glide when the spoiler rotation breaks up and creates turbulence to the boudary layer reducing pressure drag. 3rd is launch grip/ergonomics.

Had we only designed a single row (or even alternate double like first prototypes) then I don't think there'd be much opportunity for the phase 2 effect, but with the 'C' shaped final design we selected the 'golf ball' phenomenon may kick in at moderate to low speeds.

Countless patterns were studied and evaluated for various reasons including these:

http://www.chingdiscgolf.com/concept/excelerator-02.jpg

Knowing that the Excelerator concept would 'fit' on any profile (compared to a Thumtrac or Aerobie Arrow which are somewhat limited to short range discs, or the Epic which is limited to driver styles) we setout to select a single contour design that would provide consistency throughout an entire line. This pattern/contour size/placement/depth/mass/etc. seems to offer the most overall benefits without degrading performance expected from typical smooth golf disc flight decks.

http://www.chingdiscgolf.com/concept/excelerator-03.jpg

Working hard to get the first driver completed now with putters on the way.

Remember the Flazer, a protoype from around 86-88? The first wide-rim disc in my opinion, it was never approved cause of the extremely low profile and razor-sharp edge!!!

.......and the Cruiser would float up to the low 170g's




Here's the discraft side of things...

Discraft Sky-Star (1982) - Discraft's first disc manufactured for the sport of Disc Golf

Discraft Phantom (1984) - First disc ever in high durrability candy plastic.

Discraft Cruiser (1984) - First ever wide rimmed overstable distance golf disc.

Discraft Eclipse (1989) - An originator for todays sharp edged high speed drivers.

Discraft Cyclone (1993) - Revolutionizes extra long range drivers with return of highly durable plastics

Discraft X-Clone (1995) - A modified Cyclone set a world distance record 1995

Discraft XL (1998) - Pushes extra long range drivers & sets a world distance record in 1998.

Discraft XS (2000) - Makes golf holes even shorter by setting a new world distance record in 2001.

Wow that was along time between posts.

I just measured a phoenix, it's wing is still not as wide as a speedemon/spirit/illusion.
For those who are not looking close enough at the discs.
The slightly convexed wing of the Illusion was also another innovation of presedence by Gateway,It is about a year ahead of, Discraft, who has the venom and inova with the sidewinder, who are going in the direction of convex wings rather than flat or concave. This makes higher speed discs easier to climb from hyzer release for players with less power( velocity and rotation)
*
The sabres are also quite different in design, the flight plate is a little over .080 thick while most innova drivers are around .070,( mid-range discs usually have the thicker flight plates) which will make the spin a little more centrifugal and less Gyroscopic, which = less fade on deceleration!
*
The wizards wing is also convexed and it is nearly 4 years old! The main idea of the wizard was to design a disc that had the same amount or equal, air deflection over and under the nose or leading edge.
The result is that the wizard has the same stability and lift at 20 mph as it does at 50,
Also the wizards flight plate is .060 thick for the 4-1/2" in the middle ( thinnner) which will give it better feel between thumb on top and fingers underneath.
Sabres, Blazes, Demons and wizards all increase their flight plate thickness to over .100 1" before the shoulder or where the wing starts, this innovation gives the discs more of a solid structure keeping them from bending out of shape so easy.
All of our discs have very revolutionary designs, most need a closer look to understand their significance in performance.

Now back to the secret labrotory 3 stories below below ground under my house :cool:
David,,,,

PS
It's amazing how a little competition in this industry can help improve the products :D

I here Nike is getting a little interested in Disc Golf.
In fact I know they are :cool:

I agree with Dave Mc. Gateway has been the company stepping outside of known and accepted knowledge to create some seriously innovative discs. When more people throw Gateway plastic, and stop with this inane brand loyalty stuff, they will be in awe. (brand loyalty is for sponsored players)

Any big arm thrower that has never thrown a Speed Demon or Spirit needs to go throw one, and not just for one round. Seriously give it a chance, throw it as your primary driver for 10 rounds or spend a couple hours in a field throwing it at different angles.

My vote for innovation goes to...Gateway. With no contest.

starfire!!!!

Your crazy. :D

Matt,
Justin said to empty out your piggy bank before you come out next week;
he said " he likes lunch money" ask Chris Schmidt!
I told him he might be buying your lunch a few times :D

Sounds good to me by the way I will be getting in around 8:15 on wednesday morning.

I agree with Dave Mc. Gateway has been the company stepping outside of known and accepted knowledge to create some seriously innovative discs. When more people throw Gateway plastic, and stop with this inane brand loyalty stuff, they will be in awe. (brand loyalty is for sponsored players)

Any big arm thrower that has never thrown a Speed Demon or Spirit needs to go throw one, and not just for one round. Seriously give it a chance, throw it as your primary driver for 10 rounds or spend a couple hours in a field throwing it at different angles.

My vote for innovation goes to...Gateway. With no contest.


Thanks for noticing :cool:

Did I just read that Nike is interested in a possible line of Disc Golf equipment?!? They could make a killing for new players' attention, and possibly revolutionize the sport's awareness to the public, but I don't see current players switching anytime soon.

It depends,
Where did you read it?

From what I've heard from the local disc golf "elders" here in Raleigh, the Aviar, the Aero, the Valkyrie, the Roc and most recently, the Orc have had the biggest impact upon their release.

Hey, I was rereading this thread recently and noticed that on the distance records, you had a few blanks that needed filling.

I believe from reading Victor Malafronte's book that Dave Johnson set one of his records with a CPI All Star Saucer Tosser. It was Victor's disc that he borrowed without Victor knowing.

On a different note, has anyone heard anything about Dr. Stancil's discionary book that is supposed to be coming out? I think it's supposed to have almost all the discs ever manufactured for disc golf in it.

Doug


World Distance records, progressive list,

John Kirkland USA 83.23 8/25/74 -

Dave Johnson USA 88.67 8/23/75-CPI All Star Saucer Tosser

Dave Johnson USA 125.57 7/24/76 -

John Kirkland USA 135.3 4/30/78 -

Tetsuro Arita JPN 152.4 5/4/80 -

P�l Brostr�m SWE 152.45 8/13/82 MF 70c, 159g

Morten Sandorff DEN 166.42 5/21/83 MS 70c

Frank Aquilera USA 167.88 2/4/84 Aero

Michael Canci AUS 186.83 4/11/87 Lightning P38

Sam Ferrans USA 190.07 7/02/88 Phenix

Peter Albers USA 193.58 7/30/93 -

Niclas Bergehamn SWE 197.38 8/11/93 Viper, 179g

Scott Stokley USA 200.01 5/14/95 X-clone, 169g

Scott Stokley USA 211.32 4/5/98 XL, 168g

Chris Voigt GER 217.05 4/1/01 XS, 170g

Ken Jarvis USA 247.00 4/26/02 DX Teebird

Christian Sandstr�m SWE 250.00 4/26/02 DX Valkyrie, 168g

Here is an interesting link that I think talks about most if not all of the discs put out by Innova and Discraft the past twenty years :

www.discgolfwarehouse.com/Disc%20Evolution/evolution_of_disc_golf_discs.htm (http://www.discgolfwarehouse.com/Disc%20Evolution/evolution_of_disc_golf_discs.htm)

remember any of this old school plastic?

Doug

Of course one remembers :D, great link......,
Oh, it is Tom Monroe webshop /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif!

Thanks Doug. I have made some more archive research on the distance record history, including very informative personal contacts with some of the "old-timers" ;) like Dave Johnson and Stork.

Here's the updated version of the list:

1970 Victor Malafronte USA 84.10* Wham-O Professional Model

1970 Bob May USA 85.04* Wham-O Professional Model **

1974 Kirkland, John USA 83.23 Wham-O Professional Model **

1974 Victor Malafronte USA 114.30* CPI All Star

1974 Dave Johnson USA 115.20* CPI All Star

1975 Dave Johnson USA 88.67*** Wham-O Professional Model

1976 Dave Johnson USA 125.57 Wham-O 119g

1978 John Kirkland USA 135.30 Wham-O/DGA Night Flyer 40 **

1980 Dave Dunipace USA 139.63* Wham-O/DGA Midnight Flyer 41, 141g

1980 Van Miller USA 142.90* Brand X (41X), 172g

1980 Tetsuro Arita JPN 152.40 Wham-O Fastback **

1982 P�l Brostr�m SWE 152.45 Wham-O/DGA Midnight Flyer 70c

1983 Marten Sandorf DEN 166.42 Wham-O/Farusa Midnight Sun 70c

1984 Frank Aquilera USA 167.88 Innova-Champion Aero

1987 Michael Canci AUS 186.83 Lightning P38

1988 Sam Ferrans USA 190.07 Innova Phenix, 176g

1993 Peter Albers USA 193.58 Innova Viper

1993 Niclas Bergehamm SWE 197.38 Innova Viper, 179g

1995 Scott Stokley USA 200.01 Discraft X-clone, 169g

1998 Scott Stokley USA 211.32 Discraft XL, 169g

2001 Chris Voigt GER 217.05 Discraft XS, 170g

2002 Ken Jarvis USA 247.00 Innova DX Teebird

2002 Christian Sandstr�m SWE 250.00 Innova DX Valkyrie, 168g

* =Not in the official wfdf files, but mentioned in other books and documents. Regarding Van Miller's and Dave D's 1980 entrys Dan Roddick thought that the word on Tetsuro's record didn't reach the US until after these throws, but probably preceeded them in time. But he was not 100% sure on this scenario.
** =Not 100% certified what disc was actually used, data based on comments like "I'm pretty sure I remember that..."
*** =Listed in the wfdf files. Dave J himself told me that this was in fact an indoor record.