I took a huge chunk out of my CE firebird and I was wondering what the standard for how much your plastic can loose before you can't throw it in a tourney.

Rule 802.01b states:

"A disc which is cracked or perforated is illegal..."

So how much of a chunk are you talking about? Is it just a cut or gash or are we talking about an appreciable amount of the disc that has broken off (from a CE nonetheless!!)?? I would think that a broken off "chunk" would immediately make the disc illegal and therefore prohibited from play. In fact I read the rest of rule 802.01 to mean that you can't even carry a broken disc in your bag unless it broke during the round and you declare your intention to carry it throughout the rest of the round.

That's just my interpretation of the rule but maybe someone else has some experience that would shed light on the subject??

If a disc is not cracked or perforated, it is allowable. Having a chunk missing does not by itself make a disc cracked or perforated.

Now, there may be a likelihood of cracks radiating from the chunk. If so, then the disc may not be used.

I would hate to be hit by the "corner" of a CE disc that had a V-shaped gouge in it, whether or not it was cracked or perforated.

The answer to your questions is, look at the rules, make an interpretation and conclusion, and be ready to defend your conclusion.

BTW, it's "lose" not "loose"

I had a little chuck off the disc so hopefully it is still Ok I am going to ask a TD down at world double to see what he thinks.

I think you will live dayson :D are you hitting MA1 or 2 old friend?

Don't you think a disc that loses a chunk would immediately fail the 21cm minimum diameter requirement for a disc?

Not a Viper or a Ram! :D

Not a Viper or a Ram!



They're more likely to take a chunk out of a person anyway :eek:

Don't you think a disc that loses a chunk would immediately fail the 21cm minimum diameter requirement for a disc?



Depends on the size and location of the chunk. I've got a 10x Firechicken and several Rocs that have a chunk missing from the inside of the bottom rim, probably from skipping off a rock or some such debris.

Also, disc diamater is based on the average of two measurements taken at right angles to one another across the long axis of a disc, so depending on the allowable tolerance and the rounding method used, a disc missing a chunk from the outer rim may not fail the minimum diameter test, just as, under the current guidelines for manufacturers, an elliptical disc having a lateral diameter of 19 cm and a longitudinal diameter of 23 cm could, in theory, be approved for use in competition.

But an elliptical disc would make a terrible roller.

But an elliptical disc would make a terrible roller.


Yea, but it would have me ROGLMAO as it went down the fairway :D

I am playing advanced this year at San Saba looking forward to seeing everyone there.

I took a huge chunk out of my CE firebird and I was wondering what the standard for how much your plastic can loose before you can't throw it in a tourney.



Please don't tell me this happened at Gulley. There are only like a dozen trees in that whole park. ;)

No actually it happened at mcclure park in tulsa I was taking daves window on 15 for a gigle and smacked the rock on the other side.

So... was there ever a definition of how long/large a dent, crack, gouge, etc. must be before a disc is considered illegal for play?

A perforation is fairly obvious.

But is a 2mm gouge/crack illegal? What about 5mm? 20mm? How is the crack measured: absolute depth from the rim, or physical trace of the crack?

If a player questions another player's disc and the TD agrees it is too damaged to be used, that's how it's determined. No guidance is given to the TD on what constitutes damage but the TD can make the call if they wish. Not sure how you would define "too damaged" beyond cracks and perfs, so it was left to common sense by the TD.

I think this rule was set up to avoid injury to another player or other due to the disc coming apart which is more likely to happen if its perforated or cracked as opposed to a ding in the rim. I would rule it illegal if the ding in the rim is causing a visible weakness in the disc.

Any scrape or ding causes a weakness to the disc in that area, and since the scrape or ding is visible, it is causing a "visible weakness". If it was my disc, and I wanted to use it, and it did not have a crack or perforation, I would tend not to accept your ruling.

If a player questions another player's disc and the TD agrees it is too damaged to be used, that's how it's determined. No guidance is given to the TD on what constitutes damage but the TD can make the call if they wish. Not sure how you would define "too damaged" beyond cracks and perfs, so it was left to common sense by the TD.



Is that really in the best interest of the Rule Book to list a vague rule like that and give no specifics on what criteria should be used to enforce the rule?

Would it really be too much to read "crack longer than 1cm"? If so, then at a minimum shouldn't it read "at the discretion of the TD" in the Rule Book?

Rule 802.01D is essentially the discretion of the TD.

Rule 802.01D is essentially the discretion of the TD.


802.01 D requires the TD to evaluate the disc in question vs. the "above specifications"... As it pertains to this discussion those specifications are "A disc which is cracked or perforated" with no clarity on what "cracked" means.

One TD might rule that a 1cm cut in a disc qualifies as cracked, whereas another might require the disc to be completely split into separate pieces to be qualified as cracked. That seems to be pretty drastic differences in the area of what should be "specifications".

My rule of thumb would be: "Is the crack in or near the flight plate? Can I move the two sides of the crack in opposite directions?" If either are true, I'd rule it illegal.

I've got a CE Leopard (blue first run) that has a huge chunk out of the edge -- probably 1.5 cm of edge and .4cm of depth missing at that point. That said, it has been that way since I got it seven years ago (picked it up used), and it has never affected it's flight or had any additional damage occur to the disc. The missing chunk has been smoothed by time and isn't jagged -- I don't think it would hurt any more or less than getting smacked by any other part of the disc. It's not dangerous and it's not likely to further self-destruct, since there is nothing that violates the current rules as I understand them.

I'm guessing if your CE Firebird has something similar, that it should be totally legal for play.

[...] a huge chunk out of the edge -- probably 1.5 cm of edge and .4cm of depth missing at that point. [...] since there is nothing that violates the current rules as I understand them.



The way the rules are written it doesn't matter how you understand them. It's entirely up to the opinion of the TD with no hard specifications from the PDGA to guide him/her.

"Mountain" meet "molehill"

"Mountain" meet "molehill"


Until... someone calls you on your favorite disc that has a small crack/divot/gouge and you happen to have TD having a bad day.

I guess I'm just not a fan of "rules" that are total matters of one person's opinion and virtually guaranteed not to be applied consistently.

First, it apparently hasn't been a problem making this call for 30 years especially when you consider that discs cracked way more often before the higher tech plastics came onboard. Second, ball golf (I looked) and other sports don't appear to have any more specific rules than we do for when equipment is unsuitable and they rely on an official to make the call. Do you ever see the umpire take out a ruler to measure the size of the scuff mark on a baseball to determine whether it's still useable?

I guess I'm just not a fan of "rules" that are total matters of one person's opinion and virtually guaranteed not to be applied consistently.



LOL! Boy, are _you_ in the wrong sport!! :D

First, it apparently hasn't been a problem making this call for 30 years especially when you consider that discs cracked way more often before the higher tech plastics came onboard. Second, ball golf (I looked) and other sports don't appear to have any more specific rules than we do for when equipment is unsuitable and they rely on an official to make the call. Do you ever see the umpire take out a ruler to measure the size of the scuff mark on a baseball to determine whether it's still useable?


No but I have seen an umpire measure the level of pine tar on a bat and rule a home run as an out based on that. Of course taht rule has since been overturned as it was deemed obsolete.

Do you ever see the umpire take out a ruler to measure the size of the scuff mark on a baseball to determine whether it's still useable?


Poor example. The ball doesn't belong to the player.

Check the MLB rule on bats:

1.10
(c) The bat handle, for not more than 18 inches from its end, may be covered or treated with any material or substance to improve the grip. Any such material or substance, which extends past the 18 inch limitation, shall cause the bat to be removed from the game.
NOTE: If the umpire discovers that the bat does not conform to (c) above until a time during or after which the bat has been used in play, it shall not be grounds for declaring the batter out, or ejected from the game.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/objectives_1.jsp


In most sports there isn't an advantage to be gained by using damaged equipment, often it puts the player at a disadvantage.

How many ball golfers do you know who want to tee off with a ball that has a cracked cover or a club with a bent shaft?

But if it hasn't been a problem brought to your attention for 30 years why would we want to improve the rule to make it clearer and more consistent?

I guess I'm just not a fan of "rules" that are total matters of one person's opinion and virtually guaranteed not to be applied consistently.



LOL! Boy, are _you_ in the wrong sport!! :D



Yeah, I know...

Sometimes I think the PDGA rulebook was written by Majikthise and Vroomfondel...


"I am Majikthise!" announced the older one.

"And I demand that I am Vroomfondel!" shouted the younger one.

Majikthise turned on Vroomfondel. "It's alright," he explained angrily, "you don't need to demand that."

"Alright!" bawled Vroomfondel banging on an nearby desk. "I am Vroomfondel, and that is not a demand, that is a solid fact! What we demand is solid facts!"

"No we don't!" exclaimed Majikthise in irritation. "That is precisely what we don't demand!"

Scarcely pausing for breath, Vroomfondel shouted, "We don't demand solid facts! What we demand is a total absence of solid facts. I demand that I may or may not be Vroomfondel!"

But if it hasn't been a problem brought to your attention for 30 years why would we want to improve the rule to make it clearer and more consistent?


Not being on the Rules Committee I wouldn't have heard about the outcry that there was a problem. But the Rules Committee does address issues they perceive as problems with a Q&A in a pinch before addressing it with a rule rewrite. My opinion is you won't see it changing because they leave things like this to interpretation of officials. Cracks and perfs can clearly be seen. Any other modifications need the eye of a TD especially to determine whether the alteration might be deliberate. You've gotten some message board answers. The real answer comes from actually contacting the Rules Committee.

Is that really in the best interest of the Rule Book to list a vague rule like that and give no specifics on what criteria should be used to enforce the rule?



Disc golf has a rich heritage of vague rules and inconsistent application of them. There really is not much of a push anywhere to reduce ambiguity and level the playing field. Its kind of a slow and eventual realization you get to when playing tournament disc golf.

Despite the many protestations and new year's resolutions posted in this forum, I haven't seem much a change on the field of play in ten years time.

The real answer comes from actually contacting the Rules Committee.



Is it any coincidence that the contact page for the Rules Committee is blank?

http://www.pdga.com/contact?a=sf&contact=Rules%20Committee

You've gotten some message board answers. The real answer comes from actually contacting the Rules Committee.


I view the message board as a good place to discuss topics like this and get a general feel of public opinion on a topic before bothering the Rules Committee with possible changes.

Some browsers still can't access the Contact page from the D-Board along with some other links. Try this first: www.pdga.com/contact (http://www.pdga.com/contact)

Disc golf has a rich heritage of vague rules and inconsistent application of them. There really is not much of a push anywhere to reduce ambiguity and level the playing field. Its kind of a slow and eventual realization you get to when playing tournament disc golf.



Yeah, I'm 16 months and something like 30+ tournaments into my DG career. That's becoming apparent.

The fact that there's an "Official Rule Book", a "Competition Manual", and a "Rules Q&A" page... all officially PDGA sanctioned should tell you something.

Some browsers still can't access the Contact page from the D-Board along with some other links. Try this first: www.pdga.com/contact (http://www.pdga.com/contact)


I did that (from both Firefox and IE). When you click on the link in there for "Rules Committee" it goes to a blank page.

Use the pull down option under committees rather than the link.