I frequently see a disc go into the water on a steep bank. One meter from the water would leave the lie on the steep bank. Usually the groups I play with allow the player to move to the top of the bank with no additional because the side is "unsafe". "Don't have to throw from an unsafe lie," is the typical reasoning.

I read the rules differently because there is no mention of safe or unsafe in the OB lie rule. From the rules it reads, player picks the lie one meter from the OB line (safe or unsafe is not discussed). It is then the players decision to call that lie unsafe if they desire (according to unsafe lie rule), and can move it to a safe place for an additional one stroke penalty. So either you play from one meter from water (no matter the "safety" and take one penalty stroke, or play from a safe lie and take 2 penalty strokes.

I don't want to see anyone get hurt, but the groups definition of safe tends to be very liberal. A lot of the "unsafe" lies would be played from there (rather than taking the unsafe lie stroke) had the disc landed there in the first place and not OB. Unsafe is subjective and should be left to the player's discretion.

How should this be handled? (Of course if the TD announces something of that nature beforehand, then no issue)

How should it be handled? Inform the group of the rules and that they are incorrect in how the unsafe lie rule works. If the course you are on has a lot of misplays, ask the TD to go over the rule in the player's meeting. At El Dorado, a lot of people don't know how to mark their OB relief, so I typically have to go over that at the player's meeting. If I forget to do it, I get a lot of requests to go over it in a quick meeting before the next round.

Also, you get "up to 1 meter". You don't have to take the whole thing. :)

Another good way to handle it would be to get the local club, course pro, or homey group to establish an OB line at the top of the bank - to eliminate unsafe lies all together. This also is more eco friendly to the stream bed - as it would eliminate players trying to dig in and get a foot hold on a steep bank.

IMO - this should be the norm, wherever streams are in play. Foot traffic on/in stream banks/beds is a major cause of erosion and degrading to any eco system which may have been there before the course was installed.

In some situations the "rule of verticality" (assuming 1 meter from the plane of the OB line) may eliminate individuals from having to consider taking what would be an unsafe lie should they take 1 meter from the water's edge.

Dan, welcome to the board! Running that tournament out at Byron reminded me of all the headaches we can avoid by running tournaments on courses without o.b. water!

I think for future tournaments on courses with water, since Jon and I have a few of those this year, we'll either paint a drop line or we'll declare a drop zone that is more generous than the one meter allowed by the rules. We will probably declare the drop zone to be one meter from the top edge of the bank, regardless of how far that is from the water.

That might be a good rule for Firefighters and Riverbends. Once the player has incurred a one-stoke penalty for being out-of-bounds, there is no need to compound the penalty with a broken ankle. The park has governmental immunity. You do not.

I didn't see this mentioned, but a player has the option of taking the one throw penalty and throwing again from the previous lie. If anywhere up to 1m in from the OB leaves one an "unsafe" lie, a "rethrow" would seem to be a good alternative.

In ball golf the water hazzard is considered to be the top of the gorge that the water is in the bottom of. The player may elect to attempt to play the shot if he is inside the red staked area with no penalty OR he may take a drop outside the red stakes. I've seen many times where someone tries to pull off some miracle shot on a half submerged ball, or ball on a crazy slope rather than take the penalty stroke. Granted 85% of the time it ends up costing them even more strokes as they flub the shot and still have to take the penalty.

I understand we have a little different circumstance in disc golf because we're able to throw the disc instead of try to play it off the ground. In our case I would think the OB line should be considered the top of the rift containing the water and any throw that ends up on the slope should be considered OB to avoid the problem all together.

Another good way to handle it would be to get the local club, course pro, or homey group to establish an OB line at the top of the bank - to eliminate unsafe lies all together. This also is more eco friendly to the stream bed - as it would eliminate players trying to dig in and get a foot hold on a steep bank.

IMO - this should be the norm, wherever streams are in play. Foot traffic on/in stream banks/beds is a major cause of erosion and degrading to any eco system which may have been there before the course was installed.



Hippy-treehugging-Liberal!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

(I agree 110%)

I frequently see a disc go into the water on a steep bank. One meter from the water would leave the lie on the steep bank. Usually the groups I play with allow the player to move to the top of the bank with no additional because the side is "unsafe". "Don't have to throw from an unsafe lie," is the typical reasoning.



You haven't said whether this scenario occurs in casual (whether that be a group of buddies or a club event) or PDGA-sanctioned play. In casual play, the relief granted from the bank is determined by local custom. If local custom is that play proceeds from the top of the bank, then that supercedes the 1m of relief granted by 803.08.C.

A situation like this should never arise in a PDGA-sanctioned tournament.

Water is not OB unless it is designated OB; likewise, the water's edge is not the OB line unless it is specifically designated by the TD as the OB line. In situations where the slope of the bank may pose a safety risk, the TD should forsee the possibility that a disc may land on the bank, and either: a) include the bank in the OB designation; b) declare the bank a casual obstacle and define the specific relief to be granted (803.04.C); or c) define a special condition detailiing how play should proceed if a disc lands on the bank, as per 804.01. (Cf, Rules Q&A, "Bluebonnets and other protected areas")

Rhett, have you TD'd anything here besides The 2k3 Open?
I'm not sure if El Doradans were being singled out by that reference or not, but I've found widespread ignorance of the relief rules [c] everywhere [perhaps that's because I usually play with casual golfers], and especially marking the lie near OB, so I�ve taken to carrying billets of 803.02[c] to hand out...OB does come into play here a lot.

In this case I was refering to rivers that run through a couple of our courses. We typically define the OB as "in or over the river, where in means completely surrounded by water". So the OB line is then the edge of the water.

Looks like I need to do more course preparation to include the "unsafe" areas of the bank OB in the future.

Local custom is very liberal, too liberal. Causes a disadvantage to those who try to follow the rule more closely.

Thanks for the responses.

It's come up the last two year's at ElDo, Steve.

Don't be so sensitive. There are a lot of non-locals at those events, too. :)

It's a hopeless task asking this persona not be sensitive, but no offence taken...evidently you mentioned us not as an example of ignorant players, but as a hands-on-situation.

Actually, I think the OB line on the road which runs through our course is a bigger/more prickly OB safe/no issue, for novice and pros alike: The asphalt is cracked, the grass is clumpy, and there are 'islands' of both grass, and asphalt alike...it's certainly not a clearly demarked line. That doesn't affect the rule of any-in = all-in, but just what "in" is/isn't any grass, or any dirt, or is any asphalt = out, or what?] needs to be clearly defined for said tourney. I missed your instructions this year, so I'm not saying it WASN'T addressed, just that it's important...when I find out who's 'stepping up' this year, I'll mention this to them.

By the way, have I thanked you for helping DG locally, and regionally, lately? Thanks! :D

A few rolls of colored twine and some big nails, coupled with a couple of hours of volunteer work, could easily provide clearly marked OBs along the most OB-prone areas of that path.

I've thought of that, any would gladly provide the labor, but no one here has come up with the $$. :(
Well, maybe that will be my contribution this year...has an Eldo Open director been selected, yet?

Jerry Stratton is handling the whole tournament, and is desperately in need of committed volunteers that he can count on to show up and do what's needed.

But I figured you would know that. :confused:

...not sure if Jerry's just been modest, or still mad at me [about other tourney suggestions]; I didn't know for sure. But he'll get all the help/input he wants; same for Chris @ Whittier.

I frequently see a disc go into the water on a steep bank. One meter from the water would leave the lie on the steep bank. ...



A combination of Craig's and Rhett's replies makes for what I feel is the best solution: Before the tournament, the TD should designate the OB line as being up on the bank, and mark it with twine or paint. That also helps a lot in any situation where the OB line is not clear.

If the TD has not done that, and has declared the waterline to be the OB line, then you're stuck with finding a lie within a meter of the OB line, or one of the other less than attractive options (unsafe lie, rethrow from previous lie).

-Conrad

Looks like I need to do more course preparation to include the "unsafe" areas of the bank OB in the future.



Dan I agree :eek: I have seen someone un named fall into the river at riverbends. Especially at riverbends when it is wet out it fets very sloppy on that mud near the rive. 4 an idia emember there is the 2nd tee

I have found the flour is a pretty cheap and an easy way to mark the OB lines. It's a lot easier than string and nails, and will just wash away the next time it rains. That is if your are just looking for a temporary mark for tournament day.

Is there anything in our rules that does not allow us to say that the OB line is 2 meters (or whatever) outside the seam between the water and land? (No need for string or flour then...)

as long as every card has a measuring tape, i don't see a problem :D

as long as every card has a measuring tape, i don't see a problem :D



Why? Do they all have one to mark one meter in from it? :p

on some holes, yeah probably :)

did i misconstrue your meaning? i thought u meant that the line should be 2 meters inland from whatever river or pond is in play.... meaning that 20% or so of the cards (on a good day) are going to have some question as to whether or not their disc is "straddling the line" and is therefore IB. ugh... one more reason for a TD to have to stop what he is doing to make a call. the string is IMHO the best solution. it's the most easily defined line. I guess this makes me ponder how much control the TD actually has over rules like where the OB line is. I've played one tournament in which the OB line was determined to be the 4-foot concrete wall which lined the creek (read: drainage ditch) running through the park. The TD said that if your disc hit the creek-side of the wall, that it was deemed IB at the point of contact, and the lie was taken a meter in from there. technically, the rule discusses a "vertical plane" on the OB line. Since the wall in question was not "vertical," rather about 15 degrees off-vertical... the plane was altered. and to be uber-anal, it was determined to be one fraction of a millimeter *inside* that wall, otherwise a disc hitting the wall would technically not cross the now-off-vertical plane.

Of course, all of this is just for discussion's sake... it made for a faster-playing tourney and was IMO not a bad rule. It just makes me think (ouch) :D

Get over it........................No more 2 meter rule............
so no more ob period ..........................................why not
Just stand in the water and throw it................
make way for the new wave golfer.

OK, thread revival time :)

Yesterday while playing a tag match at Rockburn in Maryland I drove on hole 9 which is a heavily wooded hole with an OB creek about 250 feet from the teeing area and the basket about 50 feet past the creek. We observed my throw cross the creek then whack the far bank and fall somewhere, maybe safe, probably in the creek. When we got to the disc it was about 1/2 to 2/3 in the water and the other 1/3 to 1/2 was resting on a rock that stuck out from the other rocks on the bank, but the rock did have a thin (maybe 4 inches) connection to the bank. Because my disc was in contact with the rock the other player's ruled that the disc was inbounds but we were not sure and the player benefit of the doubt did help my case.

my questions:
Was the disc in bounds?
Where should the next shot be spotted?

Dang it I have tried to do a diagram but it just is not working :mad:

Anyway, the rock was angled out from the bank in a way such that if you ignored the jutting rock and went perpendicular to the rest of the bank you would be crossing OB water if you went straight back to the bank, if you measure perpindicular to where the disc touched the rock only about 1/2 meter could be taken (standing on the rock) and then more OB water.

Thanks!

the big conundrum was the stance.

803.03 STANCE, Subsequent to Teeing Off
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.03 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.

[braggart mode] btw... we all three'd the hole (pretty impressive i must say) and i won the tag match with a solid 59 (decent for the difficulty of the course and icy conditions). [/braggart mode]

Yes Paul, nice win
I was able to perch on the declared inbounds rock and shoot in this case.

This is the question I've always had about that scenario: Since you are allowed up to one meter from the edge of o.b. as free relief when you are in bounds, and the rock is less than two meters wide, can you advance that disc in bounds until you have that meter? Suppose that rock is one of those little concrete aeration dams that is a foot wide and runs the width of the creek. Could you walk that disc in along the dam ten or twelve feet until you are 1 meter from the edge?

It is certainly allowed by the rule, 803.02(C), provided you are walking toward the nearest bank.

Would you allow your opponent to do that in your group?

Suppose that rock is one of those little concrete aeration dams that is a foot wide and runs the width of the creek. Could you walk that disc in along the dam ten or twelve feet until you are 1 meter from the edge?

Not sure I understand what you have in mind. A diagram would be helpful, since there are several possible ways configurations of this scenario.


It is certainly allowed by the rule, 803.02(C), provided you are walking toward the nearest bank.


AND provided that the "nearest bank" is also no more than one meter away from and perpendicular to the nearest OB line. If the dam itself is in-bounds, the nearest OB line may be the sides of the dam, not the ground at either end of the dam, in which case one's options for relief may be severely constrained.

None of the 'up to 1m relief' rules related to OB appears to guarantee the player the right to a full 1m if not available. However, if the TD does some unusual OB where a 8" wide IB pipe goes across OB above the water, the player would probably choose to rethrow from the original lie rather than take an unplayable penalty in addition because they couldn't stand on the IB pipe out over the water.

Man that can get a little bit confusing.

OK, thanks, I think we played it correctly.