It takes skill to throw a disk perfectly straight over a specific distance. You have to judge the wind, the angle of release, the speed of release, abd the height. When someone first picks up a golfdisc, chances are that they cannot throw a disk perfectly straight, and they won't be able to do so for a while, with a decent amount of practice, this will be learned. However, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can pick up a disc and throw it like a baseball and instantly be able to throw the disc with very good accuracy. The reason: this shot requires no skill and is abused and should be limited in the game of discgolf. Players on the competitive level should have developed enough skill to mold the flight of a disc.
Recently at sypertour, I watched this player throw a thumbhook on a 200 ft straight hole. This guy threw these shots over the top several holes that required delicate s-curves and slow turnover shots and pretty much got them all. Essentially, he wasn't really even playing the course and how it was ment to feel. He won the tournament, granted he was an excellent putter and probably had the skill anyway to win this tournament, but it would have been good to see him use that skill.
Anyway, to my point, I don't know how to word this, or frankly how it could be done, but throwing tomahawks and thumbers over everything and on open hows should be reduced or eliminated. If not done by the PDGA, it should be done on a personal level. People should take the time to develop their shots instead of hiding this weakness by substituting unnatural disc flights.
RichardP

That is the strangest thing I think I have ever heard, Richard. That is like saying the roller should be outlawed, or that one cannot turbo putt or use a butterfly putt from 20 and in. If you think that these shots do not require skill, think again. I am sure that the fellow you mentioned has the ability to execute the s-curve, but probably found he has more consistent results on that particular hole with his "unnatural" shot. On a 650' open hole I could throw 400' in the air and then approach from 250', but if the terrain and wind were right I would probably try to "unnaturally" roll it 450' or 500', and give myself an easier approach. What do you think? Maybe since anybody can do it without any required skill, you might want to lower your average score by utilizing some different throws. Personally, I only throw something other than a backhand if I have to, but the lowest score wins!! Maybe they should ban those long putters on the ball golf tours, as well.

Respectfully
Daniel

Yeah! And rollers should be outlawed, too. Discs were meant to fly!

When did taking a piece of injection molded plastic made from petroleum and throwing it at steel targets become natural? I must have missed something...

Can everyone master a roller without a lot of practice? no.
Can everyone master a turbo putt without a lot of practice? no.
Can everyone master a tomahawk drive or thumber without a lot of practice? yes.
My friend who has only been playing for two months can already almost score with me, though I am not great(2 years), he throws those on almost every hole, except for a few really wooded holes were he [*****] on, he still can't throw a regular drive.

This is shananigans! It takes just as much skill to roll or tomahawk a disc as it does to throw it in the air. Rolling especially, you have to get the angle of release just right, compensate for a cross wind, etc etc. Yes, I agree that discs were meant to fly, but we shouldn't take away a shot that another has perfected due to our own weaknesses. Get out and practice these "unatural" shots as they will come in handy to your game someday.

Jeez, fellows, It is funny how people will key in on one word and just go with that. Strike the word unnatural out of my post and read it from there. The point of the post is not the unnatural flight, but it the circumventing of the design of the course.
RichardP

I also ment to add that I think rollers are viable difficult shots to learn and master and still have to go around the obstacles of the course design and layout.
RichardP

If you think flying a disc to hole is fun, try rolling one to a hole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Scott

You play the course your way, the rest of us will play it our way. Do you by chance have any cheese to go with that whine?

Part of how some people enjoy the game is the freedom it offers to engineer their own ways to manage each hole. That's what we call exercising course management skills.

Tomahawks/hammers/thumbers take their toll on the elbows & shoulders of those that throw them too often.

As I approach the next shot during a round, I play through in my mind each shot "I" can throw and figure out which one imparts the greatest chance for reward with the least amount of risk. Sometimes the tomahawk or thumber or even lefty backhand wins.

That's all we need to liven this game up some more, additional rules to create "shot police".

Think of it this way: If an experienced player is throwing tomahawks, it's probably because that's the best option for that player at that time. Maybe there is a solid object between the disc and the hole (trees, shelter, large hill, etc.) As far as throwing from the tee, most holes are to long to throw a tomahawk.

The other scenario is a newbie using a tomahawk for every throw to "gaurntee" accuracy. Yes this works. Yes you might imporve your score; but only for the time being. Eventually the distance on the tomahawk runs out, or, your arm gets trashed. What then? Now you have to start learning the common backhand and forehand throws while your game goes downhill.

Also, if you tried to ban tomahawks and rollers how would you enforce it? A two finger tomahawk is mearly a forehand throw at a different angle. Same with a roller. Anyone can throw a stratus (or other highly understable discs, beat up discs etc.) perfectly straight and have it turnover and roll down the fairway. You may have even done this on accident and had a really great shot.

I say keep the trick shots, they come in handy. If you feel they will better your game (any type of shot for that matter), use it!

Richard wrote Jeez, fellows, It is funny how people will key in on one word and just go with that. Strike the word unnatural out of my post and read it from there. The point of the post is not the unnatural flight, but it the circumventing of the design of the course.

We like to call "circumventing the design of the course" golf. If you can beat the designer, within the rules, you are considered a good "golfer".

Hmm, since throwing tomahawks is so easy I think I'm going to head out and learn to throw one 400 feet. Oh wait, after playing and practicing for 5 years I still can't do that. I guarantee that anyone who can throw this shot has worked on it.

Who cares how you get to the hole? It's golf, you're supposed to get to the hole the best way you know how. If that involves rollers, tomahawks, upside down grenade throws, who cares? You still have to display a certain level of skill and proficency to throw any of these shots.

My 10 year old son throws a thumber roller - to excess IMO and also to the detriment of developing the plain vanilla mainstay of disc golf - the backhand. He's also the state champ at his age level. The thumber roller is a good skill. In momentary lapses of good judgment, I have jokingly admonished him for throwing it so much, and then I quickly bite my toungue. If he's having a good time - if he's getting good distance etc... why should I care how he throws it? The "alternative" shots are good for the game.

Johnny Unitis fans whined about how Fran Tarkenton cheated by scrambling. The Dallas Cowboys were accused of "cheating" when they implemented the shotgun formation in the 1970's. It was unseamly and gimicky in basketball in the 1950's to depart from the standard "set shot" and use a jump shot. So too with the slam dunk; that was described as not a real basketball shot that should be (and was for a while at the high school and college level) banned. I think the NBA and NFL are better off because of inovative styles.

I think restricting the WAY people throw a piece of legal plastic would be pretty tough and met with huge resitance. What's the PDGA supposed to do? Outlaw sidearms? Tell people they can't throw with anhyzer? How about when a plain vanilla backhand goes bad and ends up rolling a distance? Ban it if it rolls toward the hole and ends up being pretty good? Allow it if in the opinion of the majority of the group the roll part of the shot did not improve the lie? Some of the most interesting/rewarding shots are the bizzare ones where you're crouching (maybe laying flat) under pine boughs and the only possibility is to flick a little roller shot that curls 180 degrees. Are we going to ban those? Maybe we should have spotters and your lie is where the disc first comes in contact with the ground - oops now we just banned the skippy shot - which as every 1970's frisbee fan knows is a traditional and "legitimate" shot that should be allowed - at least if you're from the upper Midwest or California .... well you get the point.

We don't need more rules in disc golf. Viva la difference.

On the aspect of not playing the designed course - I can understand frustration with that. However, mando's can be used. Part of the fun of disc golf is spying that new alternative route - that while different is not illegal. You wait for the day when the wind is just right and let er rip. For me its mostly SMACK into a tree. But when it works - well its pretty nice. Having a bunch of different shots in your repetoire just makes the game that much more interesting. There have been many postings re: the risk /reward thing - and that applies here with alternative shots. I have a very limited repetoire. But I really like seeing innovation on the course, and then copying it to see if I got what it takes.

Am I missing something here? Overhand shots don't take any skill? Let's see: there is the tomahawk that goes high and drops straignt down, the tomahawk that "belly" skips, the tomahawk that hits and rolls, the one that turns fast, the one that glides longer upside down before changing directions and diving to the ground, etc. Now for thummers.....

Get my point here? These are all real and different shots that require different sets of either skill or knowledge of your plastic. Anyone that says that they require no skill doesn't have a clue as to what they really are/can be.

Terry (I throw any way that gets me to the hole) West

I don't see how the PDGA could ever reduce the use of "less aethetic" golf throws. Getting players to wear shirts and pants is challenging enough.

Here are a couple of ideas.

(1) Make a "vertical mando." For example, you say on hole #14 you can't throw above the trees or above a certain branch or height. At least the upside-down shots will be lower, eh? It'll be controversial.

(2) Relocate tees. That means putting tees where tomahawk-type throws cannot be reasonably executed.

(3) Barriers. That means constructing barriers in front of and above the tee that prevent tomahawk throws. I suggest you make durable barriers, because tomahawkers will likely destroy it or burn it down given half the chance. Perhaps you can grow a tree around/behind the barrier, and in 10-15 years, you can remove the barrier, and leave behind the tree. Many golfers balk at actually cutting down trees. While you're at it, you can put a see-thru fence-type barrier in front of the tee and put a hole in the barrier. The person teeing then is forced to throw thru the hole and execute a very particular shot.

(4) If you don't like rollers either, you can construct wall barriers or hedges between the tee and the hole. However, you'll want to design it so that at least a mower or truck can pass thru the barrier.

I suppose there are other strategies available.

Your essay has some merit. Realize however, that there is a significant minority of golfers that *vehemently* oppose anything that makes golf harder, be it mandos, OB's, trees, water, baskets that don't stick, etc. You might say that they don't "get it" but they WILL get you.

--kurt from Seattle

Richard,
Is not the object of the game to get it in the basket in as few throws as possible? Nothing is said as to what type of throw one has to execute. I have yet to come across a tee sign stating that you have to throw a hyzer, thumber, anhyzer, roller, etc. on a particular hole. If you want to just see people throwing backhands and forehands, go play ultimate or catch with someone. Sounds like you should have thrown more tomahawks at the tournament. He beat you didnt he?

If it can be done within the rules of play and the
plane of reality, go for it. That's what makes
disc golf so imaginative, fun, and inventive.
There's more than one way to skin a cat.

If it's your intention for people to throw air
shots the traditional way, it is up to you to
design a course that leaves no other viable method
of reaching the target. That's called darts, and
it's no where near as interesting as disc golf.

Neonnoodl

Hi, my name is Steve, and I'm an invert abuser....

I blame outdated course design for my compulsion (they just left all that air up there wide open).

Don't blame the golfer for finding the easiest way, update the course design tactics to compensate.

Steve Jones
#13533

My 2 cents,

I am a player with more trick shots than most. Thumb roller, scooby roller, hook thumb roller, grenade, forehand, I love skip shots. And yes I can throw straight. The tomahawk (be it two finger or hook thumb) is a shot I don't rely on (at least for driving purposes). I don't see this as an easy shot at all - and am usually amazed at those that can use this shot with both distance, and accuracy. As a purveyor of many tricks, I say any way you can is fine.
Richard, I won't discount the argument that invert abuse will cause other parts of your game to suffer. But that's a personal choice I don't think can be taken away. And if a player can circumvent navigating the intended flight paths - that's a course design issue. Maybe courses that have been eclipsed by disc technology should only be sanctioned for 150 class or vintage class tournaments. But trying to tell people what kind of plastic they have to use, will meet with equal resistance as telling them what types of throws they have to use.

Many good posts here, but I think that there is one good point that many have missed, and that is the most important part of our game- what do you have to do regardless of how you get there? PUTT! Richard should forget about how other people play their game and work on that which comprises about 70% of the scoring aspect of our great and creative game. If he makes all those putts he missed, he still beats the other guy, gauranteed. (This is not directed at you, CG4010, you need to forget how to putt and give the rest of us a chance, haha!)

Respectfully

My limited experience with throwing Hammers etc. makes me think there not very fun to throw. I prefer the grace and rithym (s/p?) of the backhand. A more graceful, floating flight is a lot more fun to watch too. Part of the fun of playing discgolf may be low scores, but I haven't gotten over just throwing yet.

im afraid im gonna have to disagree with you backhander. i think a fast hard thrown thumber, etc.. is just amazing to watch. i think it looks so incredible the way it cuts threw the air and will do a flip or 2 to the spot you want to put it. ive also had nice thumbers taht laned about 40 feet away from the pin and slowly roll and hit the pin, to me thats just as exciting to watch as a nicely thrown S curve. but thats just one mans humble opinion.

WOW Richard, not making any friends here huh? I just think this is all VERY amusing. I feel I have a good outlook on the topic because I, like my good friend John Knudson, use "overhand" shots when they are *the best possible choice*. Let me elaborate...

Let's say I walk up to a 300 foot hole. It is WIDE open and requires well, ANY given shot. In that case, I will throw a backhand. NOW, let's say it is 300 feet with a row of bushes that are 50 feet off the tee and 20 feet high, I would then possibly toss a "thumber, overhand, tomahawk, etc" Why? Because it is the best possible throw for me to get the closest to the hole in the fewest amount of throws. That IS why we play disc golf right?

To interject a few other remarks about the throw itself. (PROS and CONS)
A) It's a GREAT shot and everyone who's shoulder doesn't hurt already, should have this trick shot in their bag.
B) It HURTS most people after throwing it day after day.
C) It's effective usually with pin-point accuracy
D) It beats up discs quicker
E) It may or may not LOOK as "pretty"
F) It won't help your game if you rely on it 100% and never learn to throw a good backhand/forehand
G) Not that top pros know EVERYTHING about the sport, but like my roommate's and I have said, name A SINGLE TOP PROFESSIONAL disc golfer that drives EVEN 10% of the time on a regular basis with an overhand...NONE, that does say something in my opinion. Anyway, that's how I feel, use them but don't live and die by them. Don't whine when others use them either, PLAY YOUR GAME!

Terry D. Miller

I've been using the tomahawk shot for drives and approaches for 10 yrs. It just isn't something I can do on every hole; nor would I want to. But I CAN throw it 250-300 ft and get it within 10 ft of the pin 90% of the time. It is just another type of shot, like all of the other shots. If I was to design a DG course I would have that type of throw in mind as I designed the holes because I do use it more than most others. Many golfers are shocked when I throw it, just like I am shocked when I see them drive it 500 ft. Course designers and TD's can make mandates against this kinda shot, but it ain't gonna happen. You still gotta putt it, dude! Jeff Carr #10368

Well fellows, I'll be sure to let you know when the first time I need to write a post to make friends comes around. I actually have enjoyed the intellectual bantering that has gone on with this conversation. I am well above the insults that accompany it as well. I have heard talk about the complexities of the shot, which I admit, I still do not see. Frankly, I can use the shot very effectively, it took me all of an hour to learn to use it for accuracy, not much D over 300 ft though. Still though, it didn't take long for me to realize, after watching several others be able to do it so easily, that it was not a good shot to use in my game. I will admit, there are holes that, even in tournaments, that I have thrown it because the flightpath molds to the line of the hole very nicely. The few things which I take out of this post are have all of the trick shots(I have a healthy repetoire), people can't handle comments on aspects of the weaknesses of their game (upshots and putting would be my weaknesses), and that no top pro relies on these shots.

The probable reason for using a tomahawk on an open hole is that the player knew the range of his throw would match that of the target. That's just half the battle with a tomahawk -- accuracy is a different matter. It takes experience and talent to be accurate with a tomahawk. This player has that ability.

For some, this may be achieved by changing discs. For others, one choice is to change throws.

This is like learning to use a sand wedge wedge in ball golf. It's a practiced skill that is part of the game.

There are many DG techniques that are out of the norm of play that experts will use to their advantage. Get used to it. It's part of the game. The way to win isn't to handicap the other guy.

Always, Fred C

I use tomahawks a lot. They are crude and unaesthetically ballistic but effective. I'll be danged if they'll fly more than 150' feet, though, and the record of 500' seems completely impossible. How is this done? Or is it better not to know to avoid bolixing the shoulder?

you can only too it 150?? you must not be doin it right or you have a weak arm. throw it lower and harder to get more distance on it. im tossn it about 300 feet with pin point accuracy, all you have to do is throw it like a (gulp) baseball. use all your body to put some mucsle in it.

I get about 200' using an Aero, but then I shun that cheap "double-flip" thumber technique. I get a beautifully arcing no-flip flight that glides majestically upside down sweeping from left to right and, when I hit it just right, sliding on its back. Much prettier than an anhyzer flight with an XD. Of course, I only use the pan shot going over something tall.

dont shun it if it can get further distance than a non double flip. i love the double flippn thumber, its super accurate and can get you a wonderful roll if need be. of course i dont use this toss on every drive, but it is nice to have it up my sleeve when need be. but why do you shun the thumb?

How does one get the distance throwing a tomahawk?
I seem to only get around 200' max with this throw. But I don't go all out with it either, if I do, it feels like my arm is coming out of the socket, so I don't want to jeopardize the rest of my game for one shot and a tingling arm. If any of you guys are down in Greenville, SC. this November, stop in and play the Upstate Disc Golf Classic, PDGA C tier, I would love to see the tommy thrown for big "D".

For what it is worth. In tennis there are a number of different serves ie. top spin and flat serve. Each serve is used in different situations. Just like in baseball with different pitches.

Disc golf should not be any different. It is up to the player to throw any style he/she see's fit.

I personally do not like the Tomahawk throw, but that is just me. If you can throw it us it.

I can't throw a tomahawk over 250ft without having shoulder surgery the very next day, but if you can throw it use it. I wish that I had a 300-325ft tomahawk to use on certain holes. There is a hole that I play alot in Austin. It's a hyzer shot that plays about 400ft. The hole is only about 330fy away but you're forced to throw it wide due to the tee position and the bushes in fromt of you. I'll tell you what I can throw a hyzer and have a long run for a birdie or I can throm a two finger forehand roller and get it up by the basket three out of five times. Every shot that can be learned, or comes naturally, is a shot worth using.

i believe that disc golf should always remain a completely free sport where there are no rules on how to throw a disc. disc golf is a majestic sport and is almost an art form, however, i am against the thumber and tomahawk being used at nausium. these throws can be useful if it is a 150ft hole surrounded by trees or if you are in a jail of birch trees and are looking for par. but when these shots are used on every single hole, they embarrass the sport of disc golf.

Hey to all of you tomahawk freaks. I am a thumber. I love the tomahawk. My best throw this year off the drive was about 400ft. Down at Hickory Hills in Iowa. There are alot of people who ask me how accurate are they and do they hurt my arm. Accurate-very. Soreness-none. I can usually get within 30ft for putting on most holes 390 or closer. The thumber just won me the Mad City Open by 7 strokes. Yeah I know I am still an Am but thats alright. I am going to take my bag of new X2's to the Am Worlds and show the people in michigan that a thumber has a chance to win regardless of pin placement. If it's within 360ft. WATCH OUT. I LOVE THE TOMAHAWK. It does take skill to throw it 300ft over very tall trees and land for a PUTT. SEE YA AT THE WORLDS.

Curt,
Hey thumb-boy. Way to go at Mad City, Congrats. To all those who do not know him, he is very lethal with this shot. It really started pissing me off at the Minnesota Majestic seeing him constantly throw it(just kidding). Hope I get a chance to play with him again at Worlds because it is pretty awesome to watch the many different shots he uses a thumber. By the way Curt, will your brother be at Worlds? ;-)

Richard,
I throw the "Tomahawk" shot very often and in my experience, six years worth, the reason others don't throw it as well is because they can't control it, and to be frank, they don't have a strong enough arm. I think your jealous of golfers that can throw this shot because YOU obviously can't. By the way I can also backhand over 400ft. and my "baseball" shot is just as beautiful as any backhand throw, especially when it lands next to the basket. Please stop your crying and get your [*****] out and practice your Tomahawk shot!

the tee sign states the distance to the hole. the pdga regulates what discs are approved. the manner in which the disc gets from the tee pad to the basket is on the one making the drive.

A lot of really cool comments for this line of conversation. The tomahawk or whatever you want to call it is a great shot to have and it is very usefull. Most people I know cannot throw it, or can only use it for short approach shots because it hurts too much. Not just anyone off the street can pick up a disc and throw it like a baseball and achieve pin point accuracy and long distance. Someone who can is naturally talented or lucky or both. It does take skill and talent to throw a tomahawk and consistantly see "pin point accuracy" and good distance. Most of the courses I play (in the midwest) have only three or four holes at the most where the tomahawk is truly an effective drive off the tee. Plus I have only ever seen two aces thrown with the tomahawk versus scores by other means. And yes, I have seen one ace roller! I prefer beat up whippets and vipers for tomahawks... what disc was used for that 500' monster shot?

Well, I guess I just have one last question then here....why don't you see ANY of the TOP 20 PLAYERS IN THE WORLD, consistantly drive with an overhand? (Meaning, throw them even 2 drives a round) WHY NOT? Because it's lame to depend on that shot, that's why. Hate to sound anti-thumber (because I will throw one maybe once a weekend) but it shouldn't be a shot that is used for drives 100% of the time. I guess I agree when it is said that it takes skill to throw it, that is very true...BUT not nearly as much skill or talent as a backhand or forehand. Plus, what's the point of winning a SuperTour that you finished 2nd in the year before anyway?

Terry Miller

i'mtired of everybody bit*hing about tomahawks being too easy they do take skill to a point you have alot more side wind resistance as it comes down than with a disc penetrating the air. you still have to aim them, you still have to go by all of the rules and hell if somebody wants to throw it more power to them for having the knowledge for knowing how to do it. hell i almost had my first ace with a tomahawk last weekend going over a wooded hole while everybody else on my card took at least a for (hole 12 circle r bottom course. screw anybody who thinks that they are superior to someone because they dont throw tomahawks you prob'ly just dont know how to do it worth a <FONT COLOR="ff0000">����</FONT>.

I wouldn't say it's any more 'lame' to depend on the thumber than it is to depend on any other shot. The top 20 players are there because they have a variety of shots to choose from.

I disagree with your opinion that the thumber takes less skill to throw effectively than the backhand. If it required less skill there would be MORE being thrown at the highest levels. My guess is that a pro will take the easiest route to the cash be it a thumber or a backhand.

Pros know that that kind of throw, when done over and over, may lead to a career-ending injury- either rotator cuff or back, or both. There is no doubt that it is a more repeatable motion than the backhand- Victor Malafronte was said to have been able to can 9 of 10 from full court (basketball hoop, not polehole) using a two-finger upside down shot, which is similar to a tomahawk. But he was throwing 110g Pro model frisbees, not heavy golf discs.
It is pretty bush-league to use these shots on every hole, and no top pro does it.

Dr. Feelgood: Are you saying that the thumber is a higher percentage shot and that Pro's don't use it because it's not "proper" and potentially harmful?

I'm not doubting the potential for injury but I don't think that when it came down to winning some serious cash at a tourney they would throw a backhand if the thumber was so easy to pull off as you claim.

For certain shots, it's more reliable and less subject to choking, but the pros are gonna dance with them that brung 'em.

Hey Terry, Sounds like you are a little frustrated about my win. Oh well, dude I'm 35 and I just started playing. Get over it. I well play you one on one anytime. We can play two rounds. One round-you use all backhands and I use THE GREAT THUMBER. The next round you use the tomahawk-if your arm can handle it- and I will use my backhand. I dont use the backhand because it irritates the hell out of guys like Terry Miller. Well thanks Terry you just made me decide to use it 95% of the time at worlds. I wish you were still an AM. I was looking forward to competing against an anti thumber. I didnt think it bothered you so much. So all of you well see so many thumbers thanks to Terry. Thanks. If I win I owe it all to you. I always thought that the lowest score won? Yeah I guess I hate 2nd Place.

Move up Curtis... you're ruining the system...

i think the tomahawk can be a great tool, if not overused - it has incredible accuracy if thrown correctly, but prob can lead to a greater chance of elbow/arm injuries in the future. i think it's
most dangerous when a new player relies on it too much, and takes away from learning the standard
approach. and, definitely, a pro should have it in their artillery, even if just for the sake of a trouble shot. one who doesn't would be at a serious disadvantage in my book, and i think most of the top pros do have it in their bag. but, regardless, i love the shot ( maybe tend to overuse it a bit, but am aware of this and trying to hold back as much as poss) but it was this debated shot that was responsible for my long awaited first ace last friday on #6 at Ellison in Rochester. and anything that leads to that much joy and a 1/2 keg guiness bender to follow can't be all that bad...see everyone at the worlds!
later- Jamo #16327

It is just like a baseball throw (or a sidearm)- you only hae so many of them in you. 200 throws and you start to fade, like a pitcher, then you need 4 days rest. Period. Very accurate and useful, though.

Daniel

Let me see if I got this straight. An Am (Gatlin rating- 967) is calling out an Pro (T Miller-rating 960) to a one on one. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Curtis beat Terry at the Mad last year (and a couple of other Ams who turned Pro). Terry does the right thing and turns Pro while Curtis pads his ego and continues to be an AM??? What a complete load... Grow up and bring that precious thumber into the big boys. May you lose every disc you throw at the Worlds...

Sounds like a little hostility out there. Hey Mike, Thanks for the message. I hope I do lose every disc. Sorry guys, I like disc golf,and all, but some of you guys are taking the tomahawk way to serious. I guess what i am trying to say Mike R. I dont really care about Pro or Am. If your name isnt Ken Climo then what ever you say doesnt really matter. I play one Am tournament this year and jeezzzzzz do i hear about it. Just needed a little confidence builder before worlds. After worlds I get to shoot with you BIG BOYS. It will be a challenge and fun. I really get a kick out of players who worry so much about another player. You still have to putt and I <FONT COLOR="ff0000">����</FONT> at putting. So I guess I will keep throwing thumbers until I learn how to putt. Hey Mike, last time i checked, my I.D. said that I am 35. I am old enough to make up my own decision. You play your game and let me play mine. Thanks, coming from an Am, to a PRO. Go THUMBERS

C'mon guys!

What you expect Curt to say?

The status quo is enabling his behavior. Don't get on his case. It's not him you don't like, it's the system that's allowing men of his rating to play in non-money divisions. Talk to your Regional Coordinator. Email a PDGA board member. Join a committee that may have some effect on the change you are looking for. Do Something!!

"We have met the enemy and he is us!"
-Walt Kelly

Whoooaaa there Curt...sounds like you are taking myself and this thread a little TOO personal. In commenting on this thread months ago like I first did, I wasn't out to rip on you or your game. Now it has come to you making personal challenges, you talking about how great you are, and you going all crazy and lashing out.

So just to re-cap, you are saying for others not to worry about how you play your game which is fine, but then you say "I dont use the backhand because it irritates the hell out of guys like Terry Miller" Sounds like you are a little too worried about a guy like me? I of all people certainly shouldn't be influencing your game that much. Heck, my name "isn't Ken Climo" so I MUST be an idiot when it comes to disc golf huh?

Anyway what I'm getting at here is:
A) You're awesome
B) Tomahawks are great ONLY IF ONE'S game doesn't SOLEY depend them
C) You beat me at Mad City last year by 3 and you won it by 7 this year, You're awesome
D) Give me a call in 5 years and tell me how many surgeries you've had on that shoulder, I'm not a doctor, but that arm will only hold up for so many years
E) Thanks for dedicating your Worlds perfomance to me, if you win, can I have your basket?

I'm outta here to play 2 events this weekend...

"cashing pro with measily rating of 960, Terry Miller"

Hey Terry, Please don't flatter me. For one, I am just a weird disc golfer who prefers to use a tomahawk alot. Terry, my shoulder well be fine. Before you start assuming shoulder injuries you should know that the majority of the power is not with the shoulder, but I forgot, YOU KNOW EVERYTHING about disc golf. Sorry Terry, I am not awesome. I don't want to be awesome-like you. I play the game maybe once or twice every two weeks. I wish Ihad all the time like you, but i have a family, and guess what, my 11 year old throws nothing but tomahawks. My 10 year old, he's a forehander. Terry why dont you come check out Thedore Wirth here in Minneapolis. I throw one tomahawk in a round. You well find the like of the Smith's, T. Gill, J Hadler, C Justice and a ton of other great shooters there. My score is comparible, and I don't tomahawk. What I am trying to say is that I well tomahawk a course to death if it allows me to(elver park-heistand)both are great courses, but they are tomahawk courses. Theodore Wirth is one of best courses-1 tomahawk. I guess I was taught to do things the easier way. Let me see..... the hole is 361ft..another righthand hyzer hole...hhmmm...a couple of trees on the right side.. What do I throw? Terry, don't call it a tomahawk, call it my anhyzer shot.

I am not going to get in on the "tomahawk" issue. But I do have one question... Did some of you guys forget to go to school when you were younger? While reading this thread I was discusted by how many times "well" was used when you guys meant "will". Maybe it is just me and I am the clueless one, but it sure seems to me to be the wrong spelling.

Regardless, you guys all crack me up, it sounds like some MN boys are taking this way to serious. Once again though, this is just an outside view of the issue. Please keep the spelling errors rolling, it makes you guys even funnier.

Peace

you shur arr rite Devils3337. Badd speling iz DISCUSTING!!!

Now you arr the funniest.

Devils3337 issued a lame spelling flame, including this dubious grammar and spelling:

"... are taking this way to serious."

Must be on AOL or WebTV.

Hey Curt...Danger here. I use the thumber as mauch as anyone besides you and on certain courses it can mean the difference of a couple strokes. When I first started throwing the tomahawk it was to "get out of trouble" after a lame tee shot. John Hime, (who by the way does excellent disc reviews in DGWN each month), introduced the #1 Hyzer to me about 5 years ago and I discovered it was feasable to throw 300 feet with surprising accuracy. The first line I look for when stepping up to a hole is the overhander. As far as accuracy "left-to-right" nothing compares. You simply need to control the speed and use the proper trajectory to leave yourself with a reasonable birdie/par saving putt. What I can't believe is the skill you possess to find a line nearly every hole! I know you were a hell of a baseball prospect and therefore have developed muscle strength and flexibility rarely seen on the tour. I grew up my whole life "throwin stuff" overhand by participating in various team sports. We may be similar in that regard although you possess a lot more power. I get the same disgusted looks and negative body language you get from others that aren't comfortable throwing the shot,(especially when you base a hole). Just like throwing backhanders...some days your "on" and others your not. But I know you and I both don't mind stepping up to a 300 ft. hole, no wind, 12 - 25 foot high trees between you and the target, and having the comfort of knowing you will be within 35 feet for birdie! Rock on buddy...see you in the Open Division soon!

Danger!

Thanks Danger,

Thanks for the positive feedback. I would like to say that thanks to you that I do throw the tommy alot. You are the tomahawk king. I think we are pretty close in the tomahawk department, but you possess the confidence it takes to do well in big tourneys. Good luck at worlds, and I will be turnig Pro right after Worlds. Thanks...see ya soon

For all of you "ANTI-thumbites" &amp; "Toma-crats" out there. The gist of the game is NOT "HOW" you get there. It's "HOW MANY" it takes to get there, period.

The results of this game are measured strictly as how we on our own played against the course following the exact same rules. Then we compare how well we did with others and she/he who played the course the most efficiently, wins.

Telling someone else how NOT to throw is not "you" playing the course, nor affecting the same rules.
Roll it, skip it, throw it, hurl it, flick it, hammer it, tomahawk it, thumb it, scooby it, turbo it, drop it, slam it, jam it, spin it, fly it. WHATEVER! Just get it there.

To a great extent, the argument about "disallowing" thumbers or other less common shots like forehands or rollers comes down to course design issues. If possible, a course designer should try to provide for all types of shots AND try not to have any shot particularly favored. We are fortunate in MN to have enough trees and hills to provide a rich selection of shot options. However, on some properties with few or younger trees there's not a lot a designer can do to restrain shots "over the top" whether thumbers or just big horking hyzers.

My point is that it makes no sense to rip on players who are getting the disc from tee to basket by whatever skillful means possible if it isn't against the rules. This commentary should be focused on how some course designs are more favorable to some shots than others. As Curt pointed out earlier, he uses the thumber less at our new Wirth Park course. On the other hand, I happen to like rollers and can go nuts with them at Wirth. However, I can't use them on quite a few other local courses, even ones I designed, because the ground is either too rough or isn't mowed well enough. From a designer's standpoint, it's usually a lot easier to restrain too much rolling than to restrain too much "over the top" on a hole. But, that's just the way it is.

Hello gentleman,
It has been a long time since I have seen this thread but it is very interesting to see how it has progressed. It is still interesting to see how people think that if you don't like the shot then you must not be very good at it. I was an excellent tennis player with a >100 mph serve and have the shoulder and strength for the tommy or thumber and can throw it accurately up to 300' but have never really given it every thing I have just because I am nervous to try it. Anyway, as i have been able to play a whole lot this summer I do not feel as strongly about this issue because my putting and my approach game have improved to a point where I welcome the challenge from a thumber.
reading this thread leaves me with great regret that I will not be going to am worlds this year because I would relish the opportunity to play against a supreme thumber. That's alright though, my rating is only 930ish but when I come northward for pros events I looking at the scoreboard for some of the names I see on this post. Props to Terry for moving up, you make a good pro. Have fun at the worlds.
Richard P. Lewis

Hey Curtis, stupid question but if your score is comparable to the Smith
Bros, Jordan Hadler, Timmy Gill, and Cory Justice (who are all pros) why
are you still playing Am? Just wondering.

I wish I had a thumber. The problem is in Arizona if you don't throw long then you can't birdie half of the holes. How far do you guys throw the thumber? We don't have very many trees but we do have a lot of holes that require 320' of carry to clear water. Would you guys throw a thumber to an island or peninsula? I sure think it would be risky.

I also find it interesting that a lot of these guys are bagging on thumbers and I haven't seen anyone complain about rollers. After playing Open and Masters for a couple of years I developed a whole new mindset. Get the disc to the hole in any fashion that you can. If you are on a heavily wooded hole that goes left to right and the three guys on your card throw Stingrays and Stratus's to the hole on rollers then you better be able to match them. If you can't then you better learn to. Whatever it takes to score the best, I've seen a forehand roller from Climo at Santa Cruz where he birdied a hole that I couldn't even fathom how to get the disc to the hole. Now guess what, I am going to work on a forehand roller if I go back just for that one hole. No matter how you throw a disc it takes skill.

It really amazes me that so many people are worried about how other people play their game (types of throwing techniques). Many of these people that are complaining about how others throw would probably be a whole lot better if they were out practicing on their OWN game instead of criticizing others. Keeping focused on one's own game is a major factor in being successful at disc golf. It seems as though the ones who are whining about the overuse of tomahawks are those that are getting whooped up on by the people throwing them. I know I did (got whooped, not whine) at the Minn. Majestic, due to lack of focus. However, just as I told Curtis then,..lets see what happens at Worlds.

In response to the original posting. I can see nothing better than to add more rules to my life to restict my past time. NOT!
Why in the world would anyone want more rules added to our game?
I think the original post was put there to make others get aroused or angry just for the sake of conversation.
This game is about imagination. The best disc golfers around have a bag of tricks. Are you going to tell Climo that he is not allowed to throw a roller or tomahawk. Get real!
Disc golf is for fun. Not too many people are making a living at yet.
If you are interested in making up alot of lame rules you need to give up disc golf and go to work for the Supreme Court or the American civil liberties union, there you can restrict everyone from being human.
Have fun and don't worry about anyone else's throws but your own

Terry Miller if you are out there, I just want to say HI. So how did your great professional backhand fair at the WORLDS? I heard you ripped it up. I think the thumber got ya. 5 nice score for a professional backhander. THUMBER -5 PROFESSIONAL BACKHANDER 5. I can't believe how many tomahawk holes there were. Looks like the great professional backhander couldnt even score with the ugly THUMBER. To all of you freaks throwing the THUMBER or TOMMY keep throwing. By the way Terry, went to the Doc the other day, and he told me that if I don't keep throwin THUMBERS I will need surgery. He said it was good for the arm, if you can handle a little pain. Hummmmmm. I know I love pain. Hey, guess what? I am a PROFESSIONAL THUMBER. So Terry, my sandbaggin tomahawk throwin non puttin PRO is now giving the sandbag to CRITTER. Terry we well see you hopefully not before WORLDS 2001. I AM GOING TO THROW THUMBERS ALLLLLLL DAAAYYYYYYYY at WORLDS 2001. The only reason why is because I see that little tomahawk window that is always there. Right to Left. MY brother says hi

WOW, I come across the site to find good ole Curt Gatlin rippin' on me yet some more here on Monday morning. I guess I should just quit disc golf because Curt Gatlin is awesome and finished 2nd in the Am Worlds.

You are right up there with Jack Smith now that you finished 2nd huh? Well, I'm afraid not, Jack has some growing up on the course to do but you are NO Jack Smith. Everyone knows that you playing in the Am Division at Worlds and me playing in the Open division is pretty much the same thing right? I mean, mentality and pressure, and competition is the same, Am VS Pro Worlds right? Everyone knows I don't play well in MI right? Since this was only twice in roughly 20 tournaments there that I haven't cashed. Since I did during all of my am days and even 3 or 4 times in pro this year? Wait,I said PRO THIS YEAR, did you see that? MaceMan said something to me that was pretty significant at the beginning of the year to me here in my rookie season..."Who cares about Am Worlds, if you don't win it, no one remembers your name or how you finished two weeks later" Sure, you're right, we DID shoot the same courses by the end of the week and yes, your overall score before the semi-finals was better than mine. By how many? I shot at 4 for the 6 rounds and you shot a -5. That's nine? Roughly 1.5 strokes per round. YOU DOMINATE. You are awesome. Did you ever think about how I would do if I still played Am? If maybe me near the leader card of AM would have played any factors on others like you? Hmm...I guess we'll never know.

In sarcasm I started the James Passmore Fan club and in seriousness, the Jack and James Fan club. I just MAY need to start the "Curt Gatlin Fan Club" However it will be in the same ranks as Passmore. EVERYONE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY knows what kind of winner James Passmore is and how well liked he is all over the country. Well my friend Curt, you are now part of that elite group. Congratulations to you. You have no officially reached the pinnacle of your disc golf career.

Wait, hold up, I just re-checked some things and was almost dumb enough to let this post go...I'm sorry, you FINISHED 3rd didn't you? I'm sorry, I seriously thought it was second all of this time during my posting...what happened? Lost the playoff in a that pressure filled AM Division? Wow, here is a DIRECT quote from earlier in this thread..."Yeah I guess I hate 2nd Place" Well, then 3rd was nice at Worlds huh?

Hey Terry

How about you, me and some of my friends show you the town when you come here for a tourney. We will all show you how to get tomahawked. I just wanted to say-- WOW -- I can't believe the difference in your attitude. I guess now that I am not an AM I will get to play with players of your caliber. NO more thumbers. You are the man Terry, you are totally awesome. I have been following your game now for a couple of years and you are the BEST. Well maybe the top ten. What I'm trying to say is, I have no ambition to even want to be in the top 500. Remember I only play once or twice a month. GO THUMBERS. As far as me not being no Jack Smith. Thank You, that is the best compliment I well ever get from you. Next time we cross paths, I want you to tell me how you feel about thumbers. Good Luck this year buddy.

A few things first, I didn't enter this thread months ago to get into a personal battle about how great "CURT GATLIN and the MIGHTY THUMBER" are. I entered the thread to say simply that it is a great shot (I throw it) but it is not one that anyone should depend on ALL THE TIME. Secondly, you're now awesome and consider yourself my personal hero. (sorry shark).

Now here you are after Mad City Open and AM Worlds talking trash about me and simply telling us just about how great you and your "MIGHTY THUMBER" are (btw, everytime we read that it just makes us laugh that much harder). Well, good luck to you. You keep playing your "once or twice a month" (BS) but as long as you are well liked on the course and you've got your mad tomahawking skillz, who cares right? Heck, James Passmore is a great guy too... right?

So please ANYONE, e-mail me if you are interested in signing up for the "Curt Gatlin Thumber Fan Club" You will receive a membership card, picture of Curt and of course, your very own X2 to tomahawk with like Curt! I will also provide e-mail or hard copy newsletters of the where-abouts to Curt Gatlin's play. How bad he beats me, Terry Miller by at each event and maybe up close and personal interviews, tips, and strategies of the self-proclaimed, "MIGHTY THUMBER"

Curt Gatlin Fan Club President....

Terry D. Miller

Hi,

I discovered your golf web site by accident and have one question. I've been playing frisbee golf all my life and never knew there were actual tournaments and clubs and stuff. Your site blows me away, I guess out west they have organized frisbee golf. I have a question because I wonder if the pros can benefit from my throwing technique. I almost always win when I play, because I can throw twice as far as anybody else, because I don't throw it like everybody else does. They throw it backhand or two-finger side armed, but I throw it like a discus. I don't know anybody else who can throw it that way with any sort of accuracy. It took me years to learn how, but now that I know it, it was worth the trouble. With a regular 162 gram Frisbee I max out at only 60 yards using a regular back hand or side arm, but with my discus throw I can go maybe 80 yards or more if there is no wind, and with those flying rings I'd say 500 feet easy on a good throw. The muscles that are involved are so much stronger because the discus uses the strong chest muscles and shoulder, while the back hand uses the wimpy little biceps and lat muscles, and the two-finger side arm is even worse because the wrist is nothing compared to using the entire body and the chest muscles for strength. Look at the discus throwers. How far do you think they could throw a discus if they flipped it with two fingers??????

I'm probably making a fool of myself, you pro golfers can probably kick my [*****] but I'm just asking. My question is, do any of the pros throw it like a discus? It goes FOREVER when you do!!! And the best thing is, you are coming down so it shoots like a line drive instead of a pop fly.

Morgan

Morgan,

The technique you used is called "overhand wrist flip". You are absolutely right about discus throwers using the strongest muscle group. However, throwing a flying disc is a different matter. You need strength to overcome the great intertial resistance of a discus; far less strength is required for a flying disc. The backhand is used by most disc golfers, but forehand throws seem to require less physical effort (grunt factor). You really need to switch over to one of those throws to improve your disc distance. And also, get some standard golf disc, if you don't have any already. You will be amazed how they fly.

Welcome to this message board and to the world of disc golf!

Thanks. I'm gonna get some golf discs to see how much farther they fly, and try both ways, but right now I'm still convinced that the discus throw gets the longest distance for me. It gets those sort of throws that go on forever and don't appear to slow down for ages. I'm not sure about the yardage figures I gave. Maybe I'll go buy a pro golf disc and take it to a football field to see what sort of distance I can get.

Are there any other golfers who think that the "overhand wrist flip" gives great yardage? I wouldn't call my throw a "wrist flip" though, because I don't actually flip my wrist vety much. It's more af a straight wrist, and most of the movement comes from the shoulder. It's a really powerful throw. I'll challenge you! I've been using a 200 gram "heavyweight" Frisbee brand disc, and can send that probably 30% farther than with the backhand, but I'll go see how far an actual golf driver will go with my patented throw.

I just ordered some golf discs from http://www.cheapfrisbees.com and will see how it turns out. I never knew there were so many other disc companies. I guess Whammo is not the monopoly. I ordered the XT because they said it's the farthest driver.

I haven't seen the throw Morgan uses very often. I know I've seen Tom Edwards use it successfully. I'm guessing he's in the 300 ft. range,( He also backhands, sidearms, tomahawks etc.). I haven't seen anyone throw 400 with that technique. For really large distances(400 ft), the backhand is best. I've seen guys at Paw Paw do the backhand "turn-around" and go 500ft. That throw seems to have the most power and leverage. I'd advise learning all the throws. Having more options at your disposal will only improve your game.

Depending on where you are in NY, you can also hit some courses in Pa.- Walter Dam, Allentown etc. You should probably talk with Scott Wolfe, I believe he's from NY. Have fun.

Today, Walmart had a sale on Frisbee "Maxflight" discs, $3.20 each so I bought 5. The package says "can go over 100 meters." We'll see about that.

Open field, no wind, I drove all 5 of them in one direction with my best backhand, and then went and returned them all with my best discus throw. Of the 5, 4 of them returned farther than they went out, but that's because one of the discus throws went Corrigan on me.

Sorry to say, these Maxflight discs don't go much farther than freestyle discs, but maybe it's just me, maybe I was expecting them to really sail like flying rings do. Those suckers go so far you always lose them on the first toss.

I ordered a Cyclone and an XL. If I can't throw them 300 feet I'll forget about taking up organized disc golf.

Geez, if everybody said that, we'd have noone playing. Generally, new players aren't going to get great distance after switching from Frisbees to golf plastic. Golf plastic requires a slightly different technique since the plastic is more stable. However, that extra stability allows you to throw it farther than a Frisbee. It requires practice to be able to throw 300 with a golf disc. The reason people are promoting the backhand throw is because with practice, it drives the furthest of any of the other techniques. I'd say the cyclone and XL are for an advanced player. If you throw them and they keep going to the left-assumming a right hand back-hand throw- then you bought too stable of a disc- just keep at it until they fly straight. If they turn right- buy something more stable-most disc sales sites rate and describe the flight of the different discs.

Gee, Lisa, I wouldn't really call myself a beginner. I got my first Frisbee in 1966, and have been a "Frisbee jock" since the 70's. It's just that golf is not very popular in NY, everybody around here plays ultimate. In college I was captain of the ultimate team for 3 years, and had the longest volley on the team by far because of my discus throw which only one other guy on the team had mastered, and he was the second longest passer on the team whenever he threw it that way. I've never known anybody in my life who can backhand a disc as far as I can throw it with my discus throw. It's really freaky. The discus throw hammers the frisbee with so much more force and so much more natural stability than the back hand, it's something you should keep your mind open to. You don't need to use overstable discs to keep the thing straight, the natural path of the discus throw is perfectly level and straight and there's never any sort of hook at the end, it just naturally falls straight as it loses speed. The discus throw, if done correctly, sends the disc into a line drive that never goes more than 10 feet off the ground because the leading edge noses down for the entire length of the path, so you can throw it as hard as you possibly can without needing any sort of specal overstable disc to keep it from hooking. They never hook (unless you throw it wrong).

The only reason everybody doesn't use the discus throw if that it's too hard to learn. When people first try it, they can't get the disc to go straight so they give up. I don't know anybody else who can do it with accuracy. It's like I have this special unique skill or something.

When I play golf it's with freestyle players and ultimate jocks who all think they are the best tossers in the world, but I always win because of my discus drives, which they can't do. But I'm open to learning, because I've never encountered so many golf-only freaks as here. Most people in NY think of golf as a curiosity, and that serious tossers only play ultimate.

We'll see what happens when I get the XL and cyclone.

Is this guy for real? An overstable disc to keep it from hooking? Morgan, I am curious about the grip you use on the "discus throw". Is it really a backhand wrist flip, with fingers on top and thumb underneath, or is it really like a discus throw, with the palm on the top of the disc? Right handed, is it a counter or clockwise spin? Please describe you grip and throwing motion, because 100 yards is a good long throw with a big ultimate lid- and I just don't see it with a backhad wrist flip.

I'm sure he means a wrist flip. With a real discus grip your hand goes across the top and grips the opposite edge and you can't get any snap at all. A discus weighs a few pounds, so it's quite different.

I knew a guy who could really wing a big disc with the wrist flip, so I believe it. He was a long-armed and would lean way over to the left and let it go. When I was starting out in golf I gave it a try, but it just didn't seem to work with a small disc.

Morgan, I personally don't care what throw you use. Stick with what you like. I'm just pointing out that in golf, it is best to learn all the throws. The fact that you have been playing ultimate etc. still does not qualify you as an advanced player. I have watched many ultimate players take up disc golf at my home course. While on average they are much better than a raw newbie, they still aren't in the same league as the guys who play golf regularly. Ultimate players do progress faster on the learning curve...but few come out grab a golf disc and huck it 300 ft. It usually takes them a month or two to adapt to golf plastic.

Yes Daniel, it's like the overhand wrist flip that you see in freestyle, but with a much bigger windup, a big long carry through, and it starts with a runup of at least 15 feet in 3 or 4 long steps (my backhand runup is more like 10 feet, with two steps).

You hold it with your thumb just the same as in the wrist flip, but after the runup the disc is practically touching the ground behind you and to your left as you're leaning way the hell over backwards. Your body's momentum from the runup makes you stand up again quickly, and while this is happening you explode the arm to accelerate the disc, and your legs straighten to give more force, and your whole body goes forward and twists to the left like a discus thrower, so you almost fall over forward by the time it leaves your hand. I'd say the disc is being accelerated by your hand over a distance of 8 or 9 feet if you have long arms. In the backhand, the disc is in your hand over a length of maybe 5 or 6 feet if your right arm is long and you reach back the same amount, and those are much weaker muscles, so obviously the velocity of the disc when it leaves your hand is much lower in the backhand. The discus throw uses very strong muscles to accelerate the disc over a longer distance in your hand. Basic physics.

The arm swings wide just like a discus thrower, and to put spin on it at the end you bring up your elbow to point at the sky right before release. That's when the wrist flips. If you don't flip it enough the thing will always go to the left and fall, so you have to learn how to increase the flip so it ends up flying horizontally. Also, you are facing backwards during much of the whole throw so you have to memorize where your target is beforehand. That's the hard part, you don't even get to see the target until the wrist flip at the end, which is when you can make quick adjustments so it goes toward the target. When you get good at memorizing where the target is, you don't have to worry about this, your accuracy can be very good with this throw because the flight path is so <FONT COLOR="ff0000">����</FONT> incredibly STRAIGHT. But not being able to see the target is the reason most people can't do the throw. It takes lots of practice.

The physics of this throw is simple. The disc leaves your hand with the front edge nosing slightly down, and the velocity is very high, much higher than with a backhand, so you won't dig for worms with the nose down because the lift is great enough to keep the disc up. Also, because the nose is down, the vector of the lift force points slightly forward so the lift pulls the disc a little forward as well as up. The disc stays in this position for the whole length of the flight so when it slows and stalls, the nose is already down so there is no change in nose and no sideways tilt from any changes in torque (in backhand, the nose is up during the flight so when it stalls and the nose falls down, the whole disc tilt to one side).

Patrick, you are so correct when you say this works better with a big heavy disc. I have always used the 162 freestyle but now this Heavyweight (it weighs 206 grams) makes my discus throw look like a concord on takeoff, it's really a sight to behold, a big heavyweight Frisbee soar like that. I've sent is 80 yards over level ground with no wind, but I'm sure I've sent it 350 feet or more on many occasions, downhill when an updraft hits it right. But I don't count that crap, most of these 500 foot and 600 foot record breaking throws are off mountain tops so who cares?

The discus throw [*****] with small discs because they are unstable, which is why I had no increase using the Maxflights. But I can't wait to try the XL and Cyclone!!!!!

Morgan, almost any golf disc is more stable than a frisbee. I have no idea what a Maxflight is. Sounds like a lightweight frisbee and therefore unstable.

The angle of the disc on release is dependent on the thrower. Good throwers throw the disc flat - no nose up or down.

The world record is 694 ft. thrown on level land by Scott Stokely. I think he used an X2. He uses a backhand turn-around. He also has a mean sidearm.

If you can throw a frisbee 80 yards then, you, with some practice, should have no problem getting big distances out of golf discs. Have fun.

I will break that record with my discus throw. I believe my 44 year old shoulder still has time before bursitis sets in.

Mighty Morgan - that's mighty big talk for a newbie to golf plastic- anxious to see you out on the course to figure out exactly what this "discus" throw is all about. You do know that discus throwers have their hand across the top of the discus, and the object is released with clockwise spin right? All of the friction and spin is generated by their fingertips. You're not actually doing this with a frisbee are you??

>> I've sent is 80 yards over level ground with no wind, but I'm sure I've sent it 350 feet or more on many occasions, downhill when an updraft hits it right. But I don't count that crap, most of these 500 foot and 600 foot record breaking throws are off mountain tops so who cares?

Morgan, show some respect! Don't defile our idols! Those record-breaking throws are on level ground with modest tailwinds.

All right, let's call it the "discus thumb flip" or something. I'll start out by setting the world record for a discus thumb flip, which is easy since there is no record now, and then we'll see how many times I can beat that record before some young guy in his 20's with more flexible joints and good ligaments beats me, and then we'll see how long the record for the "discus thumb flip" takes to pass the record for the backhand. It's gonna take a long time to see what golf plastic works best for this toss, and they may even need to design a different disc altogether. Maybe I'll even help do that.

Or else, maybe the official judges will determine that the "discus thumb flip" is too similar to the "overhead wrist snap" or "chicken wing" or whatever you guys call it. What's the record for that throw so far? I'll have to beat that record to start the thing off. That should be easy.

By the way, this "newby" to disc golf first played "Frisbee golf" in the mid-1970's.

another thumber, another ace.
yesterday at Chili, NY #10 w/ a Banshee.
only been aced 3 or 4 times, according to Dave
Thomas..my first one was july 7th, so this is looking like a once a month thing, i figure.
no guiness kegger this time, low on funds.
Anyways, GO THUMBERS!
-Jamie #16327

I've always heard of the throw Morgan describes as the gull wing. I've also heard it called the chicken wing but mostly gull wing. I used to use it alot in disc golf years ago as a first driver on the longest holes because it does carry quite far, but I got tired of it and stopped using it because it often left me in the rough, the accuracy is unreliable and I couldn't trust it during tournaments. It's a long, powerful drive technique in open fields but unreliable. But if you get good accuracy with it, more power to you. I don't recommend it for anything under 200 feet.

I got my cyclone and XL today and did some experimenting. I paced off 75 yards from a 3 foot chain link fence, to see if I could send any discs over it. My results using the "chicken wing" throw:

1. The Cyclone initially sliced a lot but I eventually learned how to make it go straight by leaning to the left a little and pulling back to the left when I snapped. When it did go straight, it had no trouble hitting the fence but never went over it. Even when it sliced it went pretty far, and didn't slice very far to the right. I really like this disc.

2. The XL was very difficult to use. It sliced much more, and in order to lean left enough to compensate, it dug for worms every time. The "chicken wing" doesn't have enough inherent elevation for this disc since it rarely goes 10 feet off the ground, so there isn't enough room vertically to hyzer or anhyzer it enough to compensate for the overstability without digging it into the ground. If it didn't dig for worms, it sliced. I would say not to bother using the XL for the chicken wing. I never reached the fence with the XL in maybe 25 attempts. There isn't enough lift with this disc for the chicken wing.

3. The ultimate lid hit the fence twice, but the difference is VERY striking between the ultimate lid and the other two discs. The cyclone got to the fence in maybe 3 seconds, but the lid took 8 or 10 seconds to get there. It's a completely different aircraft from these little golf discs!!! It goes slow and smooth, never hooks or slices, but takes forever to get there. Overall, the Cyclone went much farther and MUCH faster than the lid.

3. The backhand was a different story. Dang, these things sure hook a lot. The cyclone eventually did cooperate, but I never hit the fence with it, and even when it went straight, it still hooked left at the end just to tick me off. The XL was almost uncontrollable. When it went straight, which was rare, it came close to the fence. With the ultimate lid, I never even came close to the fence with the backhand.

In short, I need practice, but todays results showed me that the chicken wing had VASTLY more power than the backhand, with or without golf plastic, at least for me.

PS I don't like the term "gull wing" and have never heard that term.

In the above I use the term "slice" for going to the right, even though going to the right when the disc spins counterclockwise is technically probably a hook. I don't know.

That's why Daniel Marcus said "Is this guy for real, an overstable discs to prevent a hook?" Well yeah, Daniel, my disc spins the other way, right?

Only another 400' or so and you might break a record %)

All things in due time, with due practice, using due plastic.

Ya think? What a revelation!

Welcome to beveled edge technology Morgan!! Glad to hear of your discoveries involving speed and stability. Good luck in developing greater distance with the overhand throw. I've seen a couple very talented players who use that throw, Perry Hardison, Tom Edwards - but neither have BIG distance like the top backhand throwers.
Keep us posted on your progress - I'd love to see that throw go 400 , as for 600 , I'm not sure you realize what your shoulder's in for http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Craiger

I'm getting a really erie feeling about this Daniel Marcus guy. Call me paranoid but can there be a reason why his past 5 posts have been flames? Is there a reason for this, among grown ups? I can understand when kids get their first computer, but we're supposed to be adults here.

Craig, I think you're right about the shoulder. It hurts today!!

Hey Morgan,

I'm sorry. I thought you were trolling this whole time- like you were somebody under alias, and I was just playing along. Well, you never bit, and the tone of your last post convinced me you were "for real", to allude to my original slam. I'm really a nice guy, so, apologies extended, and hopefully accepted.

You've got to admit, the reference to the "chain thingy" was a little out there- that's what got me going. Anyway, work on developing the backhand, that's where it's at, and good luck as you've entered the addictive world of disc golf. Your spouse or significant other is not going to like your increased absence.http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

"Horrified that someone would think I'm an a*ss"
Daniel

morgan, come to the "farm life open" in n.c. next year. you can see a very accurate chicken wing by perry hardison on a course that rewards good shots and punishes not so good shots.

I said thing, not thingy. I've never seen one in my life, and have always played Frisbee golf by grassroots rules using freestyle lids. We aim at park benches and garbage cans.

I have to restate that organized disc golf does not exist whatsoever in eastern NY state. We have only 13 courses in the state and they're all out west by Rochester and Buffalo. If you go into a sporting goods store out here, they have never heard of golf discs or chain things. I'm really serious, nobody has ever heard of disc golf around here. I've never seen a chain thing and never saw a golf disc until yesterday.

How many people where you live have heard played candlestick bowling? Nobody? Everybody in New England knows about it. That's all they play in Boston. You mean you've never actually seen a candlestick pin or ball? You must be trolling!!!

Actually there are several disc golf courses in Eastern New York- warwick, Mt. Kisco are two good ones. In North Jersey there is also Buzzy's creek, and in Honesdale PA there is Prompton Dam.

Anton, Sounds like you are trying to get some traffic at farm life. I agree with your comment that perry hardison is good, but a tomahawk at farm love? Wow. I really need to come back down there and try that course again!!

Hey Now Morgan,

A sincere apology snubbed? Be nice, I meant what I said, and followed it with words of encouragment.

Have a great day,
Daniel

I bowl in New England and Its called Candlepin Bowling. Not candle stick..
we call "tiger woods golf" ball golf or stick golf but if you ask a golfer about "ball golf" he will look at you funny..
Just tell a bowler in the mid-west that your going Big ball bowling.
He might look at you funny..
Dave

So I guess I gotta speak the language around here then.

Dan it wasn't snubbed, I just explained how sports can be regional and that some regions may not have a certain sport. It's possible for a guy to play frisbee golf for 20 years and even be quite good at it, and never hear about the PDGA, the chain things, etc. It looks like eastern upstate NY is the last place to find out the news. Mount Kisco and Warwick are downstate NY and are 150 miles south of here. The nearest disc golf course from me is 110 miles, in Syracuse. Seriously!!! No courses around here!! I'm not making this up!

Actually, the closest course to me is in Vermont.

This thread is a gem,great history lesson with a little soap as a bonus.

Overhead shots are fine when it's appropriate. If the hole is 200' to 350' wide open and you throw a overhead shot you got alot to learn boy!!! That will take you no where fast!!!!! I see people do that and laugh, as does everyone else. Learn a backhand, the basic stroke for our game, then work on sidearm/overhead/trickshots. There's a reason overheads are in the trickshot group, let's keep it that way!!!!

I guess you have not seen either of the Gattling brothers play around have you. Those two will throw overhand almost for any shot and get away with it they it is a nessessary shot and should be throw more often to work on consistancy and arm strength.

All right, since this historical thread I have learned how to throw a backhand 300 feet. Some folks can go 500 or 600 but I still don't understand how they do it. There must be a trick to it.

But, I still throw an overhand farther than my backhand. But my fartherst throw is the combo side arm/roller. Goes in the air 200 feet and rolls another 150.

Actually you guys are wrong. I have a friend, "Frisco" Mike, and the only shot he uses are "Tomahawks" and "Thumbers". Even for an approach or anything. If he needs a shot with a left turn, he'll throw a Tommy, If he needs a right turning shot, he will throw a thumber. I try to get him to learn something elese like a good forehand or backhand, but it isn't comfortable to him. He's actually quite consistant and I couldn't picture him throwing him throwing anything elese. We have played multiple corses all over Northern and Southern Cali. and I have yet to see a course where the Tomahawk or Thumber couldn't come into play. Personally, I don't think any type of throw could be overused, exspecially the overhand Tomahawk and Thumber.

In tournament play, do whatever works. Anytime else, master all types of throws. I used to "tommy" alot of holes on my home course, but then a local pro advised me to never use it in noncompetitve play. I took his advice, and notice huge inporvements. BUT, I still have that 250' tommy just in case ;)

In tournament play, do whatever works. Anytime else, master all types of throws. I used to "tommy" alot of holes on my home course, but then a local pro advised me to never use it in noncompetitve play. I took his advice, and notice huge inporvements. BUT, I still have that 250' tommy just in case ;)



He probably advised you not to because this type of throw is very injury prone. Anybody that throws tomahawks and/or thumbers as their primary throw usually ends up hurting themself in the shoulder. It's not a career throw, and should only be used sparingly.

That, and it's not that accurate of a throw compared to the backhand. A guy took 2nd place in Am Worlds a few years ago (Michigan in 2000, I believe) but that was the only time I have ever heard of anyone being competitive at a high level using primarily tomahawks and thumbhooks. And I don't think we've heard from that guy since - did he blow his shoulder out? :confused:

I Belive SOME can use it as a primary driver...Look at baseball pitchers and Football QBs, AND watch me at the Memorial..Ive never played the course but i bet i use it ALOT. so go ahead an riticule me now, ive heard it all before.

When I first started in June...I couldn't throw a disc backhand to save my life...it would go 150 feet forward, and 90 feet left every time. Took an 8 and a 7 on the first two holes.

So on the 3rd hole of my 1st ever round, I switched to a tomahawk drive.

I instantly got a lot better.

So I stayed with it for about 3 months, practicing it all the time...my score dropped 20 strokes in that 3 months!!

Then I played in a glow tourney at Blendon Woods in Sept. and about 8-9 holes into the first round, I pretty much blew out my elbow on a tomahawk. So I lumbered around the course, trying to throw a backhand...and I didn't do too poorly (threw my PB at the time of a 64).

The night round was postponed until the next day because of rain...
so after a lot of ice, and while I was at work, I brought in my glow putter, and tossed it around the halls trying to figure out a backhand delivery (gotta love slow days at work). Anyway, I went around the course that night, with only that one disc (since my glow driver didn't work) and shot a 62!!! I think I managed to finish 40+ shots out of the lead :)

I only use a tomahawk now on 1 hole at Hoover where I need to go over some tall trees...and I'm a much happier person now. And my best at BW is now 52... :) Still can't get my drives over 200 ft. consistently, but I'm happy with the overall improvement in my game since September...although I haven't tossed a disc since I fell on my throwing arm on New Year's Day...so who knows where I am now :(

WOW, talk about dragging a thread out of the cellar.....

I love Thumber overhand shots, but dont have enough distance on them, to throw them exclusively, as I get 125 or so feet more, out of a BHRH throw.

Barring headwinds, how does disc weight effect these overhand shots? Also, if there are cross winds, when would a thumber have an advantage over a 'non'thumber/Tomahawk? And vice-versa?

cross winds dont matter too much, in fact they can acually help. i got my first thumber ace least summer thanks to a crosswind. it stalled it perfectly so it had the correct angle to slam in the chains. a head wind doesnt matter to much it just decreases the distance. however with a nice tailwind ive been know to thumb 375

Westa, if you've tried lighter weights, how did they fly?

Overhead shots are fine when it's appropriate. If the hole is 200' to 350' wide open and you throw a overhead shot you got alot to learn boy!!! That will take you no where fast!!!!! I see people do that and laugh, as does everyone else. Learn a backhand, the basic stroke for our game, then work on sidearm/overhead/trickshots. There's a reason overheads are in the trickshot group, let's keep it that way!!!!



Wrong wrong and wrong again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU may have alot to learn. There is NO basic stroke for our game. People throw back hand forehand overhead and many other things as their own basic stroke. I know a kid who throws mainly overhead on his drives and can shoot very well. If i am in a wide open field and i think my thumber or tommy will land closer then my backhand or forehand then i am going to throw my overhand shot. Thats like telling all the backhand throwers that they over use that shot or the forehand throwers that they throw forehand too much. You CANNOT AND I REPEAT CANNOT throw any shot too much if it works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

circle.. i dont throw heavy discs, thumbers i like 166-169 wieght, unless i dont want to throw it too far i use something heavy like a high 170 sumthn Roc

Overhead shots are fine when it's appropriate. If the hole is 200' to 350' wide open and you throw a overhead shot you got alot to learn boy!!! That will take you no where fast!!!!! I see people do that and laugh, as does everyone else. Learn a backhand, the basic stroke for our game, then work on sidearm/overhead/trickshots. There's a reason overheads are in the trickshot group, let's keep it that way!!!!



Wrong wrong and wrong again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU may have alot to learn. There is NO basic stroke for our game. People throw back hand forehand overhead and many other things as their own basic stroke. I know a kid who throws mainly overhead on his drives and can shoot very well. If i am in a wide open field and i think my thumber or tommy will land closer then my backhand or forehand then i am going to throw my overhand shot. Thats like telling all the backhand throwers that they over use that shot or the forehand throwers that they throw forehand too much. You CANNOT AND I REPEAT CANNOT throw any shot too much if it works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D



It's a free country. You can throw whatever type of shot you want, whenever you want. Go hog wild.

But I think what he is trying to say is that given a wide open 200-350' hole, you're going to be much more consistent with a backhand shot. You'll get more deuces, and save more pars.

That kid who throws primarily overhead on his drives and "shoots well" is very rare as compared to the number of people who shoot even better with a backhand. Would you see someone at Am Worlds throwing primarily thumbers and corkscrews? Probably not. At Pro Worlds? Highly doubtful. There's a reason for that!

Throw in the danger of blowing out your elbow or shoulder and it's just not worth it.

I would like to add that a backhand (BH) throw is basically a pull type shot, while sidearm and overhand throws are push type shots.
A major difference here from a longevity aspect is that with a BH/pull motion, large muscle groups are generating 'and' dissipating the energy/torque...with good technique of course.
A sidearm/overhand/push motion is a very compact and powerful generator of force...but much smaller muscle groups are at work here, and proper techniques and follow through are imperative for longevity.
Baseball pitchers generally have short-lived careers. Roger Clemons and Nolan Ryan are exceptions, pitching into their 40s...with smoke!

i agree, thats why they call me Ryan "Nolan Clemons" Westa

You CANNOT AND I REPEAT CANNOT throw any shot too much if it works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D



Totally. The only way to win is to play your own game. Go with the discs and shots that work for you, and build your skills where you see deficiencies. Just because most pros drive mostly backhand doesn't mean you should. Most pitchers rely heavily on their fastball, but Tim Wakefield has been quite successful not throwing it at all. Why? Because his "fastball" goes about 75 and tends to end up in the bleachers, while his knuckleball is unhittable when it's working.

And speaking of pitching, if you're throwing a forehand with the amount of effort it takes to throw a 95 mph fastball, you're doing something very wrong. I throw fast, overstable discs forehand, and the motion is still barely more than a flick of the wrist. I've never tested this for sure, but I'd bet that the amount of force it takes to drive a Monster 350' would barely be enough to throw a baseball from first to second. So as long as you keep your arm in shape, you shouldn't have too many problems throwing forehand for a long time. Overhand shots might be tougher physically, but I'd think the same would apply.

But I think what he is trying to say is that given a wide open 200-350' hole, you're going to be much more consistent with a backhand shot. You'll get more deuces, and save more pars.




I couldn't disagree more. Overhand and sidearm shots are MUCH easier to learn than the standard BH shot. I find the overhand to be the most consistant shot I can throw and I know all my friends find the same. Maybe it is because my friends and I come from a 'traditional' sports background and have been throwing overhand our whole lives. All I know is, if I need to park a shot from within 300', I am going to throw overhand or sidearm every time if there is an alley.

Like Jeff says, do what you want ... it is a free country and all the overhand shots are just as legal as the BH shots :D

I couldn't disagree more. Overhand and sidearm shots are MUCH easier to learn than the standard BH shot. I find the overhand to be the most consistant shot I can throw and I know all my friends find the same. Maybe it is because my friends and I come from a 'traditional' sports background and have been throwing overhand our whole lives. All I know is, if I need to park a shot from within 300', I am going to throw overhand or sidearm every time if there is an alley.



I will give you that the learning curve for throwing overhand is much less steep. Just about everyone knows how to throw a baseball, so it comes naturally. For a new player, developing an accurate 300 foot backhand shot takes months if not years.

People are stubborn. They think "If this works for me, why try to learn something new, and hard? Why spend countless hours on an open field practicing to switch to a something that I can't throw as far nor as accurately?" But eventually you will learn that a backhand IS more accurate, as well as much easier on the body. It takes far less effort and does far less damage to your elbow or shoulder. Baseball throwers soon see everyone else beating them with a backhand. Sooner or later, they switch.

There's a reason that 99.9% of dics golfers throw primarily backhand. There's a reason that there is virtually no one in competetive disc golf that uses tomahawks and thumbhooks as their primary throw. If you're casual golfer who doesn't care about score, throw all the overhands you want. But if you ever want to throw 400', you need a backhand. If you ever want to get better and be competitive at disc golf, you need to throw backhand.

There's a reason that 99.9% of dics golfers throw primarily backhand. There's a reason that there is virtually no one in competetive disc golf that uses tomahawks and thumbhooks as their primary throw. If you're casual golfer who doesn't care about score, throw all the overhands you want. But if you ever want to throw 400', you need a backhand. If you ever want to get better and be competitive at disc golf, you need to throw backhand.



If I were king, I would blow up this paragraph and require that it be posted on hole 1 and given away with all disc purchases. :) Sometimes, I just sit on the picnic table at my local course and watch the parade of casuals go by. I am amazed how often I see the overhand, even on wide-open holes. To me, the common use of the overhand by the casual player is one of the biggest changes in the sport over the last 15 years, and I find that regrettable. (I feel like an old school basketball coach decrying the lack of fundamentals in the younger generation.)

I just found this thread, so if this has already been brought up you can choose to ignore, but another disadvantage to overhand throws is an apparent increased potential for shoulder and rotator cuff injury. I personally know 2 golfers that threw a majority of their shots as either thumbers or tomahawks and both have had to take extended breaks because of shoulder injuries and one ended up having rotator cuff surgery. This is not as much of a problem for younger players, but in my limited experience becomes more prominent with age. Personally, I throw thumbers only rarely, but I can feel the additional stresses on my shoulder whenever I try to thow one with any distance, but of course I have had a rotator cuff injury in the past, before I took up disc golf. A backhand throw is less stressful to the arm and all that associated connective tissue, which is why I always suggest that folks learn a good backhand.

There's a reason that 99.9% of dics golfers throw primarily backhand. . . . if you ever want to throw 400', you need a backhand. If you ever want to get better and be competitive at disc golf, you need to throw backhand.



I think the reason most people throw mostly backhand is that most people throw mostly backhand. If a new player sees everyone around him throwing backand, with the sidearm as a "get out of trouble" escape shot, chances are he's going to play the same way. It takes initiative to develop a shot on your own. You have to experiment, and you have to be able to ignore all the people who say "you need to learn a backhand if you want to be any good."

I've been playing for about nine months, and I've stuck with my sidearm drive. I can consistently go 330-350' with accuracy, and my longest throws have been around 400' (with no accuracy). I'm confident these numbers will continue to improve. My drive, when it's working, can fly considerably lower than most backhand shots, is much less affected by wind, and because of its speed, can punch through branches better too.

Am I some kind of disc golf prodigy? Definitely not! I've gotten good at this shot because I've worked at it, and stuck with it, where most people tend to use it only as a last resort.

Would my game benefit from my learning a good backhand? Of course, and I'm working on it. I'm putting in my time on my local course with just a midrange and a putter, trying to perfect that snap, the feel of the release, etc. My midrange and approach shots have gotten decent, but I'm still shaky on the tee. And when I shank a backhand, my friends now say "How come you didn't throw that forehand?"

In terms of being competitive at a high level . . . well, I don't have to worry about that for a while. But Scott Stokely predicts it will be a prerequisite among the next generation of pros to be good at both the backhand and sidearm. And to have some good trick shots up your sleeve.

Clearly, you want as many weapons as possible, and you obviously can't learn them all at the same time. What that says to me is, figure out where your talents lie, and develop them first. With that as the core of your game, build other skills around it as you see fit.

Sorry to spend so much time talking about sidearm when this thread is about overhand shots. I think all of this applies, more or less, though.

If I need to stop a disc at 300' or less, and take no chance on it skipping away, or have to come in through a narrow gap between obstacles 50' from the pin, or have a tall obstacle to go over, or am tired I will use a thumber. The final line is more consistent, there is no chance of a skip, and little chance for a long roll.

I think there is an overuse of just backhand. You backhand only bigots who shun the use of any non conventional throw will always have higher scores than us who throw all sorts of shots. I use pancakes, thumbers, sidearms, rollers, tommohawks, even lefty almost every time I play. It makes sense to throw a more fitting shot with a trick toss than try to manipulate a Backhand to fly the same line. And your consistancy will suffer by trying to manipulate the same awkward backhand technique. And no, I don't think that throwing only trick shots is a good idea, because all courses are based on some kind of backhand shot. I just think if you forget about using any non conventional shots, your game will suffer.

i love thumbers :p

I like to use Thumbers also. I will not throw it on anything that I've got to go further than 250 feet. The thumber is perfect for those pesky lefty holes.

what's a lefty hole?

I'm not sure I qualify as a "backhand biggot" because I think forehands have the same advantages of a backhand, I just think crushing forehands all the time would be tough on the elbow.

The basic advantages of these throws is that they take advantage of the discs intended design, they can be thrown low to reduce the variables of branches and wind, they are not at the mercy of the unanticipated redirection of rocks/etc, and you do not have to expose the bottom or face of the disc to the wind.

I don't imagine that anyone is saying that these trick shots aren't useful, but their overuse is tantamount to playing against the percentages and therefore an extra hurdle that must be overcome if someone wants to beat the best.

Until I see a predominant tomahawk/roller/whatever player that can compete with the best on a variety of courses, I will remain a "backhand/forehand biggot."

I sponsor a high school disc golf club. I have witnessed first hand, the begining stages of many disc golfers. Most of the high schoolers want to get as close to the distance w/ accuracy they see me get (I'm a mediocre AM1 player). Their backhand isn't develeoped yet (they haven't figured out how to rotate and snap the wrist), so they rely on throwing tomahawk shots.
I have watch these young players hinder themselves by not learning a backhand which is vital.

I have watch these young players hinder themselves by not learning a backhand which is vital.



But by starting with a shot that gives them the most success early on, they're more likely to enjoy themselves, and thus, keep playing. Maybe in a Soviet-style system, where potential athletes are identified and sent into training at a very young age, it makes sense to spend years mastering the fundamentals before learning anything else. But this is America, where kids can say "screw it" and go watch TV if they're not having a good time. So I think the best way to promote the growth of disc golf is to make it as much fun as possible for new players. Those who care will learn a backhand shot later on.

I really can't argue your point that in our immediate gratification society, kids (and everyone else for that matter) may retain interest longer if they have immediate gratification. To satisfy their craving for instant "success," maybe we should build a bunch of "beginner courses" where they can kick [*****].

However, to me, the growth of the sport is far less important than the quality of the growth. I would rather have a small, unnoticed disc golf universe consisting solely of people who "respect the sport" than a large universe consisting mainly of people who demand instant gratification. I don't mean to imply that tomahawk throwers don't respect the sport, but I guess I am labeling all those who sacrifice long-term skill development for short-term gratification.

Anyway, imagine if your parents or your little league coaches embraced this attitude of sacrificing fundamentals to instant gratification (and many do). Overall, is this a good thing?

I think sacraficing fundamentalist is generally a bad idea.
Instant gratification is almost always worth the wait though.

[T]o me, the growth of the sport is far less important than the quality of the growth.



That's valid, and coming from that angle, your other arguments are very strong. There's something to be said, though, for more growth at the expense of a certain amount of quality. The more people involved with disc golf, the more influence and presence the sport will have. We'll have an easier time getting courses, more money from sponsors, etc. Inevitably, we'll have more jokers too, but I don't see us being totally overrun.


Anyway, imagine if your parents or your little league coaches embraced this attitude of sacrificing fundamentals to instant gratification (and many do). Overall, is this a good thing?



It really depends on the activity. Obviously, you need to learn to swing a bat before you can play baseball - but then, if you can't hit, you won't get much gratification from the game either. Take learning a foreign language though. Having been both a teacher and a student, I can say there is no reason to learn any rules of grammar until you have a decent command of the spoken language. Think about it: You didn't learn English by starting with a list of tenses. You picked up bits and pieces, and used them - awkwardly at first - until they became your own. But so often, the first thing you'll learn in a foreign language class is grammar: "the fundamentals." The result is students who, after several years of instruction, can rattle off hundreds of vocabulary words and their various forms, but are hopeless at the very purpose of language: communication.

To me, disc golf fits this pattern of learning. The goal is to get your disc from tee to basket in as few throws as possible. There are many ways to achieve this. Some may be more effective than others. By encouraging new players to experiment, and go with what works in the beginning, you're eventually going to cultivate a greater understanding of the game. Over time, the ones who like the sport enough to stick with it will realize the need to expand their skill set. And when they do, the motivation will be stronger for coming from within.

When people told me, "you need to learn to throw backhand," I set out to prove them wrong. When I told myself, "I need to learn a backhand," I practiced until my arm fell off.

Your probably right, but if I were a disc golf coach charged with teaching the necessary skills of the game, mastering overhands would be way down the list of what I would cover. However, if I were their coach, most of my students would be mediocre and quit. :p

By the way, what is all this talk about sacrificing fundamentalists.

Totally. If you're teaching skills, the overhand shot should not be a priority. I see coaching as a little different. There, your job is to help each individual player become as good as possible. I'd have my players start with what came naturally, and then when I saw the lack of a certain skill impeding their progress, focus on improving that skill.

Then again, if you're a coach in charge of a team, your approach has something else going for it: You'd be left with a core of dedicated players. You might lose some talent with the ones who quit, but at least you'd know everyone who stuck around really wanted to be there. A few screw-offs can really hurt the morale of a team - especially if they're talented screw-offs!

I think the problem with fundamentalists is that they're too eager to sacrifice themselves!

The way to look at the need for a good overhand shot like the Tomahawk (one of my best shots) is where do your tee shots end up most of the time. If you spend alot of time in the jungle the overhand shots become very useful to get to the basket or free from trouble. People like myself are very good at overhand shots because we have praticed them ALOT(spending lots of time in the jungle).

I think everyone should learn all the different ways to throw, then use their strongest throws when they are needed. And if that shot is an overhand shot, then great. Long as the score is good, then rock on. A bird is a bird no matter how you throw it.

Thats my 2 cent.

I think it is good for others to overuse (if there is such a thing) the tomahawk/thumber throw. This way they will eventually blow out some part of their arm (hopefully) and then there will be less competition. :D

People like myself are very good at overhand shots because we have praticed them ALOT(spending lots of time in the jungle).



You speak the truth, o enlightened one. And I bet your arm is in good shape for overhands, so you don't tweak it as much when you throw them.

I have a buddy who can throw 350-400 consistantly with the overhand shot. He used to play baseball and has quite an arm. He used to use it a lot but then developed his forehand shot. Which also was very good b/c of baseball. I say use it when you feel it's the best shot. In tournament play when he feels he can get closer to the whole with a thumber he goes for it. I do the same thing. Sometimes I just feel like that's my best shot for the hole. But when the holes get longer and there's more stuff in your way the thumber isn't always going to be the best shot. Then you have to go to a backhand/forehand/roller. You should try to learn a variety of shots for all occassions/situations. I still can't throw a forehand to save my life. That's this summers work in progress. Overall, think the thumber is a great shot. Improved my game a lot when I learned how to throw it.

I throw the occasional short overhand to get out of trouble. Played at Pyramids, in Mass., this winter, most of which is in a birch forest - lots of trunks, few low branches. If I were there often, I think I'd want to learn those shots in a hurry.

The course I play on most of the time is also pretty tight, but the trees are different. They're either palm trees or weird tropical things like guavas, with dense, expansive branches. They create a very low ceiling and gobble up discs, especially ones falling from above. You need a cannon arm to drive successfully with a tomahawk. I'm concentrating on backhand and sidearm for now, with overhand on the list when I can.

this thread sounds like whining by someone who can't throw the thumber... but just think.. the guy may be able to throw the thumber but can he putt? if not then let him be with his thumber.... don't be jealous.. develop your own signature shot.. thumb roller?

Whining? I thought we had a great little debate going here for a while.

When I see people throwing trick shots that are closer/better than my traditional RHBH throw. It makes me realize I have alot more to learn about throwing a golf disc. I would never hold a grudge towards another golfer for outdoing me.

I primarily use bh throws on my drives, and forehands on lefty holes, but my first **** near ace was with a thumber. I don't hate because I play with guys who can out thumb me by 60 feet and make it fan nicer than me...I just try to do better the next time.

I agree, Buddha. A golf shot that gits ya a bird is a good shot, but....be careful with the tomahawk! I played regular with a guy whose distance was 450'-500' with his tomahawk. Sometimes he would get 600'. Used to be a pitcher in school. You could always tell where he was on the course. :DAfter the round was over, he would ice down his shoulder and elbow for 30 min. He said he never felt that kind of tightness and pain when he threw baseballs. The overhand shot is an unnatural movement for the human arm. Ask any baseball coach! If used correctly, the tomahawk shot will work but it does cause wear on the old rotator and elbow. You must be aware that damage can and will happen if you use this shot too much. As you get older, you'll see what I mean! :cool:

kingrat tipz (http://www.geocities.com/kingrat6931/)

Ya know, James, if these younger guys listened to us "seasoned" disc golfers, we wouldn't have a chance in the open division! :D:DBut, as usual, no one wants to hear what we have to say. My 18yr. old tells me "opinions are like a**holes, every body has one and they mostly stink". /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Our suggestions come from years of expierience and the younger crowd will find out we are right...in due time!!

kingrat tipz (http://www.geocities.com/kingrat6931/)

"BACK IN THE DAY" "3-4 year'Z ago" :p /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I used to THROW T/T'Z in 20' ceiling's and other player'Z were just :eek: "AMAZED". While still having a 350' RHBH. It was just the SHOT that felt comfortable on alot of DIFF. Hole'Z. Then the :( ELBOW STARTED to go out.
Then I found the :D "ROC"="CONTROL" ;) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Still throw them every so often though.

I throw an average of 4-7 thumbers during a typical round at most the courses near my home. I average between 300' and 350' depending on disc selection and wind conditions. Most often I throw them to get over something or to negotiate a tight fairway with an unlimited ceiling. I have only injured myself once, and it was not my shoulder/elbow, but my groin. On that throw I tried to throw too hard without stretching/warming up. You must be fairly flexible to execute this shot safely, so it helps to be young. Besides this, there are several things you can do to minimize your risks while reaping the advantages of this shot.
1. Always stretch/warm up!
2. Focus on being fluid and not on power.
3. Use your entire body. My shot flows from my calves to my abdominal muscles to my back/lats then finally through my shoulder, forearm, and wrist
4. Try using discs under 170g as they will allow an effective shot without the power/stress requirements of catapaulting a heavier disc.
5. As has been said before, don't rely on this shot as your primary weapon.

I agree with you Kingrat, if thrown to much or for a power driver it can and will cause damage to the old Rotator cuff. I tore mine last year, but I don't belive it was to discgolf and the tommy shot I throw ( I think it was the weight lifting and lack of stretching daily). Anyway, I use the tommy as my get out of trouble shot, not distance. I limit it to 200 ft or less. Use more flick with the wrist which is less strain all around on the joints of the arm. I don't knock people for using the shot because when perfected by someone it can be very accurate and help out when stuck in places a regular throw wont work. I am just tired of everyone knocking the shot, its just another way to help save strokes when needed.

It doesn't matter, there are going to be people who complain its not a real shot, and thats fine. Opinions are like Arse holes, everyones got one. And this one is mine.

when i use mine i run up and use a baseball style cro-hop to save my arm.. use the body and save the arm..

It doesn't have to do with age. I'm 17 and I damaged my shoulder about 6 months ago and I haven't been able to throw thumbers since. Now I throw primarily RHBH and Sidearm, with some UD's, and I occasionally throw a thumber but never over 200' now. I can't throw more than 3 thumbers in a round before my shoulder gives out and I have to stop.

Just a warning to disc golfers of all ages...it could happen to you!

STRETCH!

It takes skill to throw a disk perfectly straight over a specific distance. You have to judge the wind, the angle of release, the speed of release, abd the height. When someone first picks up a golfdisc, chances are that they cannot throw a disk perfectly straight, and they won't be able to do so for a while, with a decent amount of practice, this will be learned. However, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can pick up a disc and throw it like a baseball and instantly be able to throw the disc with very good accuracy. The reason: this shot requires no skill and is abused and should be limited in the game of discgolf. Players on the competitive level should have developed enough skill to mold the flight of a disc.
Recently at sypertour, I watched this player throw a thumbhook on a 200 ft straight hole. This guy threw these shots over the top several holes that required delicate s-curves and slow turnover shots and pretty much got them all. Essentially, he wasn't really even playing the course and how it was ment to feel. He won the tournament, granted he was an excellent putter and probably had the skill anyway to win this tournament, but it would have been good to see him use that skill.
Anyway, to my point, I don't know how to word this, or frankly how it could be done, but throwing tomahawks and thumbers over everything and on open hows should be reduced or eliminated. If not done by the PDGA, it should be done on a personal level. People should take the time to develop their shots instead of hiding this weakness by substituting unnatural disc flights.
RichardP



First off, D-I-S-C not disk...You must be jealous or are you hiding your weakness? If you were playing a hole that doglegs right, is it fair for someone to throw forehand or should that be outlawed too?
All shots require skill, even tomahawks and thumbers...Go to the field and throw some...just make sure you stretch, we don't want your arm to get sore. :o

It takes skill to throw a disk perfectly straight over a specific distance. You have to judge the wind, the angle of release, the speed of release, abd the height. When someone first picks up a golfdisc, chances are that they cannot throw a disk perfectly straight, and they won't be able to do so for a while, with a decent amount of practice, this will be learned. However, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can pick up a disc and throw it like a baseball and instantly be able to throw the disc with very good accuracy. The reason: this shot requires no skill and is abused and should be limited in the game of discgolf. Players on the competitive level should have developed enough skill to mold the flight of a disc.
Recently at sypertour, I watched this player throw a thumbhook on a 200 ft straight hole. This guy threw these shots over the top several holes that required delicate s-curves and slow turnover shots and pretty much got them all. Essentially, he wasn't really even playing the course and how it was ment to feel. He won the tournament, granted he was an excellent putter and probably had the skill anyway to win this tournament, but it would have been good to see him use that skill.
Anyway, to my point, I don't know how to word this, or frankly how it could be done, but throwing tomahawks and thumbers over everything and on open hows should be reduced or eliminated. If not done by the PDGA, it should be done on a personal level. People should take the time to develop their shots instead of hiding this weakness by substituting unnatural disc flights.
RichardP




LOL this is a huge pile of bull! If you were faced with a hole that had a 250' squigily tree route or a 300' hyser, I'm almost 100% sure you would hyser. The Thumber is just like any other golf shot! Don't call it unnatural. Its like calling throwing a baseball underhand unnatural...everyone knows its only natural for a baseball to be thrown overhand! And all those people in england who drive on the left side, thats so unnatural it sould be illeagle...WAIT! I bet your girlfriend dies her hair...THATS UNNATURAL!! And I bet you like your job...THATS UNNATURAL! and I bet you have suppreme authority on everything discgolf because you are the world champion inventer superman dude!

And that guy who won the tournament, why do you think he won? because he was a bad player with no skills? Listen to yourself. Sounds like he was the only good disc golfer there...he took the easiest route to reach the basket and guess what, he succeeded!

The way I see it, the only unnatural shot for a disc is the roller. I'm not knocking it cause I use them occasionally.

JUST LET US GOLF!

(p.s. dont knock my lack of spelling and grammar skills cause it may be natural but its the lamest thing ive ever seen)

Post deleted by _808_

i myself use the thumber religiously. i am good with it also. i use it primarily when i have an anhyser that i'm not sure if i can throw right. but i also use it when i am doubting my backhand. its helped me rise above my peers but as for overused... i think you may have gotten beaten by a thumber and you are just mad about that... if the only way a disc can be throuwn is backhand then it would be in the rules like that.with that thinking the side arm should be illegal... not going to happen... just do this-- practice your game and when you play this guy again beat him with your backhand... and if you can't then practice some more. disc golf is nothing more than consistancy so if he's consistent with his throw then he must have practiced it ... so plz quit badgering and just practice..

I get a big kick out of people who play a sport and expect everyone else to play it like them.! There are all levels of players and all kinds of reasons people play.. Play Your Game and We'll play ours.. If its rollers, tomhawks, flicks, what ever! My personal stand is the best players will have all the shots in there bag and ready to use them when needed... I backhand, flick, tomahawk, thumber, turbo-putt, and am working on rollers now...I've been playing less than a year, but I want the complete game. Most holes have several shots that can be thrown so mix it up and have fun! Try throwing some tomahawks & thumbers on a wind day and let me know how easy they are to throw.

PS. How many ACE runs have you heard of with Thumbers & Tomahawks? :) Enjoy the game! Play yours! And kick butt, when you get the chance!

PS. How many ACE runs have you heard of with Thumbers & Tomahawks? :)



Ten to Twelve.....2-3 have even stuck.

I've had several ace runs as well using these type of throws. Someday one will stick.

I've also had a few ace runs with thumbers and tomahawks...I never had one stick yet but I have had some pretty long birdies with tomahawks.

I have 5 T/T'Z ACE'Z Including 2 in Tourney PLAY. 1 came down just in front and bounced up and IN, the 2nd just CRASHED right IN THE CHAIN'Z. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I have 5 T/T'Z ACE'Z Including 2 in Tourney PLAY. 1 came down just in front and bounced up and IN, the 2nd just CRASHED right IN THE CHAIN'Z. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Right on! :D

yeah anyone can pick up a disc and hammer it...but I can corkscrew it through trees, I can skip it off the ground on its back and into the basket, I can throw over the top of a huge tree, I can judge the wind so that I know where its going to end up...Not anyone can do that, I also have a strong backhand, can throw forehand accuratley to 350 feet, forehand and backhand rollers...But it always is great to use a hammer to get out of trouble or land it right next to the basket off the tee...Oh yeah ace runs...I've had 10 hammer aces and many long birdies (100 feet +)
Is it my only shot...hell no...Am I glad not everyone can do it?...hell yes

last year i couldnt toss a back hand for a couple of months, i used a tomahawk during that time because its easier on my sholder than a sidearm and easier on the elbow than a backhand. I still use the backhand from time to time, but the backhand is my most used shot. There are a few holes that a tomahawk is my perfered shot, like uphill holes and a couple of other holes that just set up really nicely for it. Its also great for going over a tree or other obstical. I will always have it in my bag, and its saved shots on many holes.

**** i love thumbers, those of you who knock it cant do it as well as i can....either watch me chuck one over 350 on a dime and say nice job, or quit criing and work out your shoulders so you can do what we can do. :p

exactly!

I think the only people who complain about tomahawks & thumbers are the ones who cant throw them with success.
These type of throws do take skill to throw - How many people have you seen that can throw them for distance and accuracy??? I guess experienced disk golfers get intimidated when new disk golfers, with a baseball background, come out and cut the learning curve with a shot that is roughly equilivent to the throw from centerfield to home plate. Quit complaining and learn how to throw it - You bunch of Nancy's

Tomahawks and thumbers take quite a bit of skill, as stated much eariler in this thread! Just take care how you throw them because you can injure your arm easily. If you have a baseball background then you understand what "warm up" means. You never "take the field" until after you're warmed up. Same thing in discgolf! One of the better tomahawk throwers always "iced down" elbow and shoulder after tourneys. Just remember how easy it is to tear a rotator or hyper an elbow! If you played much baseball you'll KNOW what I mean :D

kingrat tipz (http://www.geocities.com/kingrat6931/)

It is easier to pick up a disc and throw it like a baseball, since many of us have thrown baseballs much more the frisbees. However it takes skill to throw it all the **** time. I do not and can not throw tommy's. It kills my arm something horrible. I throw one for about 100 feet and I'm done. I admit sometimes it pisses me off when ppl can throw them and base holes that I have no chance in getting too, but that is life. Until I can putt, it don't really matter anyway.

Yeah, like those guys that can throw 450' backhand. It really upsets me that they are allowed to do that in a tournament. It's just not fair to all of us with normal arms. :D

hehe, that can be annoying too, but I have a hope of doing that. Throwing a tommy over 100 feet is out of the question. My elbow would be gone if I tried. I'm just saying I admire those fools who can do it, but still it annoys me at the same time (because I can't do it). It's all a ying yang thing.

Everytime I throw a thumber out to a 300' hole, one of my friends always murmurs cheater under his breath (well almost under his breath).

hehe, that is kind of amusing. Let me see, if I tried to do that I would have my arm in a sling for a week. I wish I would have played baseball when I was younger.

hehe, that is kind of amusing. Let me see, if I tried to do that I would have my arm in a sling for a week. I wish I would have played baseball when I was younger.



I've always played baseball, and it still gets kinda sore after a few of em. And I'm only 17!!

im 24 and a skinny SOB, and i can throw em over 300 all day

I hate it when I through one and my little finger tingles like I have hit my funny bone.

Ouch, sounds like you're on your way to tennis elbow or worse... :eek: I haven't seen anyone throw one over 200 feet, but I'm sure its possible. I'd just like to see someone throw one in high winds. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Has anyone else experienced lower back pain after throwing hammers? I only throw them for upshots and hail-mary plays, but after the round my back stiffens up pretty bad...

im 24 and a skinny SOB, and i can throw em over 300 all day



I can throw 'em 300'+ all day, I'll just be feeling it later is all I'm saying.

pop a couple ibueprofins and youll be all good

pop a couple ibueprofins and youll be all good



Don't forget alittle ice right after your day is done. Helps alot.
I should know, I was throwing a ton of tommys and thumbers this past weekend. Ice did wonders between day 1 and 2.

I throw a lot of thumbers...At a tournament at Hudson Mills in Ann Arbor last weekend I birdied # 18 on the monster course (400' over water) with one and it was the highlight of my day. I don't get any more sore throwing thumbers than I do throwing really hard backhand. Its all about a smooth, full body throw. It really helps to throw them often as well. If you only throw thumbers/tommies every couple of rounds to get out of the crap and try to really sky it, you're gonna get sore or hurt. Practicing them often improves your fluidity as well as strengthening the muscles you use when throwing them.

By the way, I never played baseball. ;)

I played baseball for two years but i was only about 6-7 when i played and then i moved on to disc golf (good choice :D) I started with a traditional backhand then without seeing anyone do it realized forehand was easier to throw and then after about 6 years saw the thumber and now have integrated it into my game for over-the-top shots and even use it on open shots and think that it takes skill to throw it and can be overused but it is a disc golf shot and should be allowed to be thrown whenever the player sees necessity for it.

Good god, man! Use a period or comma once in a while!

just messin' with ya. :D But I was out of breath by the time I finished reading that...

Good god, man! Use a period or comma once in a while!

just messin' with ya. :D But I was out of breath by the time I finished reading that...



I'll, try,..,,., that but, for, you, try not to beathe too hard when,., you are reading,,,,,, :D

People dissin' on the 'hawks and thumbers,eh? :confused: Well,as ye sow, so shall ye Reap. I can throw a darn good thumber.I can only throw it 350-400(more with a lucky roll),but then again,I've only been playin since Aug.'03.(by the way,I also can backhand 420-440 regularly,but this ain't a p*ssing contest) My brothers have been playing since the mid-Seventies and have 4-digit PDGA #'s and their advice is to not limit yourself. This game is in my genetics,I guess,but I willingly listen to ANYONE who's been playing that long and who's been a part of this organization that long. ANYONE....I play this game with folks of all ages and persuasions,yet the veterans are the ones I learn from.I'm fortunate to be able to play with 3 of the top five players in my state on a semi regular basis.They are true gentlemen and masters of this game,although they won't say it. Never once did these men treat me like I've seen and heard many times already. Their advice is always on time,never really critical,helpful,and best of all,I've NEVER,EVER heard them criticize a shot someone just made,or these types of shots in general. And they all say the same things to me. THINK! CONCENTRATE! PRACTICE! VARIETY!!! BE CREATIVE! TRY IT! RESPECT THE GAME! VARIETY!!! RESPECT EVERYONE PLAYING! RESPECT THEIR GAME! VARIETY!!! I think these shots are cool,LEGITIMATE throws that are very useful and fun to watch. However,with that being said,I will also defend the backhand because that throw is the FOUNDATION of the sport.You MUST master this throw to be worth a darn at ANY level! But all this talk about injuring your arm/rotator cuff,etc.,is CR*POLA!!! Maybe they aren't in proper shape? Or they have Zero flexibility? Limited flexibility in a sport that involves any type of throwing,running and jumping,will hinder you, no matter what! And that includes flexibility of mind...
BUT! The sidearms,hawks and thumbers DO NOT hurt me,being that I only throw them 20% of the time.And being double-jointed helps,too! :DIt IS just like in baseball when I was a teen.The coaches said,"aw,don't be throwing that sidearm/submarine: you'll throw yer arm out!" This after I struck out 8 of the last 9 batters in a row!(And yes they did tell me that,and no,I didn't keep playing...adults ruin kid's sports anyways.) It seems to me that it's always AFTER you've done something cool and ORIGINAL and/or effective that the detractors and critics and objectors speak up! So what if I throw sidearm,tomahawks,rollers,and thumbers!? Are you made that you can't do it?( see,ya put yer thumb on the rim like so,...) Or are you mad because I parked it?(Pardon me,Where do I get my parking validated?) Or is it because you didn't think of it first?(Wind Dummy) I know these throws aren't original.The originality and creativeness comes in their application. Therin lies the spirit of this game.The spirit of the people who invented it,developed it, and could never perfect it. But that's just my opinion...maybe after 10 years or so of a stagnant game,I'll think differently,too. :(But I doubt it!!! :p

P.S.-this is to no-one in particular...just replying to the original post...