so if you win the big tourney, and you thank(jesus)god,
the next tourney you get stomped by the competition, then do you blame(jesus)god for not helping with the BIG PUTT?????

You know, someone's relationship with the divine is his own private business and should not be held up to public ridicule, no matter what it is.

Let's show a little respect here for others' beliefs, OK? Enough people are going to war over stuff like this as it is - intolerance, in any form, is something we really don't need more of.

Hey Metal,

who ya gonna blame when JD takes the basket from ya in Lewisville? /clipart/proud.gif

Just funnin' ya...

I gotta say one more time, if you are not a Christian, why are you even looking at this thread? FYI Metal boy, no, I thank God every time that I play whether I am DFL, first or just playing casually. Who do you thank for this wonderful sport and the ability to play it?

> Who do you thank for this wonderful sport and the ability to play it?

Ed.

My question to all you guys that ridicule is this:
Why are you so intimidated by Christian belief?
Seems funny to me.
Ed

Bazillion said: <FONT COLOR="0000ff">You know, someone's relationship with the divine is his own private business and should not be held up to public ridicule, no matter what it is.</FONT>

I've got to agree with you on this point Baz...it should be kept as their own private business. Problem is that when folks start posting stuff like this thread's contents, it isn't private any longer.

Religion should be one's personal (meaning private) belief system. Many problems throughout the world stem from one group trying to impose their belief system on that of another group or thinking that their particular system of beliefs warrants them priviliged status over those that believe something else.

While I respect anyone's right to have their own belief system, this message board isn't the place for it. It's a public forum for disc golf. Introducing religious belief systems into it only causes further division and segregation in a sport already suffering from too much division.

My advice is take your religious separatisms to a different venue other than this forum.

Ed McG asks: <FONT COLOR="0000ff">Why are you so intimidated by Christian belief?
Seems funny to me.</FONT>

I'm glad it seems funny to you Ed. The obvious answer to your question is that it's probably because many of us don't hold the same beliefs that you do. We have our own personal beliefs which are ours. We don't want to see DG evolve into Christians/Muslims/Atheist/Catholic/Greek Orthodox match-ups. See previous thread for more detail.

I don't want to see this sport known as a "Christian" sport. Religion has nothing to do with it. If you are a religious Christian that happens to like disc golf, fine. Talk about your religious beliefs in a religious forum and talk about your disc golf on this one.

THE

LORD

SAID

GET

LIFE

AND

STOP

WASTING

THREAD

SPACE

Wow, looks like a thread for Evil DGD to start posting on. I myself am a christian but I dont throw my beliefs out for people to play with unless I am wanting some play.

Wanna Play???

i wonder why the jesus freaks are so eager to judge the non-believers. what inadequacies are they trying to cover?

judge not lest ye be judged, mf'ers

They have E.D.

There are at least 7 Texas threads currently on this board, one with over 2000 posts. You all have some nerve to accuse this thread of taking up band width!

This IS exactly why we have this message board.

This thread was started by people looking to find others who share the same beliefs. Not to provide YOU with another thread on which to show your intolerance.

Remember, disc golfers are a very diverse group, and there is room on this message board for everyone!!!

Nice post Discette.

way to go randy, you just made this a texas thread /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

serious question.... why is it that we all love spirited discussions about all sorts of things, but when the topic turns to religion, specifically jesus, people get all grumpy?

what is about that topic that bugs people so much?

we totally tolerate the nick v. randy, the smoke v. clean air, all sorts of convoluted "rules" threads, but when jesus gets mentioned, look out!

i need to ponder this question some more...

I'm glad to hear that. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sandalman - IMO it's strictly because belief is belief. It's personal, not open to outside inspection, and no one in the world can tell you that you DON'T believe what you DO believe.

That's why (still IMO) some people get all beefed up about religion - because one person can't deny another what they believe.

And yes, Discette, I agree with you too. There's room enough for everyone in the big wide wonderful world of disc golf and if one bird wants to find like-feathered birds to fly with, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

My 2�. Or 6�. Or whatever.

Anybody wanna go throw plastic?

PS - Not to mix threads, but I sent in my PDGA dues and will soon be an Official Member!!

we were all made from Aliens anyways/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Maybe they started us like a large "moon rock" experient, 10 million years ago.

I love science...

Is'nt Austin Texas the headquarters of the "United Atheist Organization".

I consider myself spiritual...not religous. With that being said, has anybody ever read the book, "Nothing In This Book Is True, But It Is Exactly The Way Things Are"?? I never put it down...just read straight through it. Some interesting food for thought for you open-minded types...entertaining for the alien-minded as well!!
Doc

Read "When God Was Woman" for a counter-point to the Bible that doesn't bash the Bible.

to all ya'll FAHQERS,
WHO SAYS I'M NOT CHRISTIAN!!!!!!!!!
i never did, not even in the 1 coment that i made on this thread. as far as intolerance goes i'm APPEARENTLLY MORE TOLERANT THAN ANY OF YOU.

MY JESUS FORGIVE YOU BECAUSE I WON'T NOW!!!!!

It all started with a Cannabis plant and a vision.

GOD IS RIGHT,
MAN IS NOT,
MAN MADE LIQUER,
GOD MADE POT!!!!!

Man made God.

i'll give ya that one rhett!

METAL MIKE
ching dude!!! you need to go throw

DrDisc prescription:
Take two double bogies and get whatever is eatin at ya out of your system

note: I am not a real DiscDr, but I play one on the linx

great post chinglizard!

Man, You guys get bent real easy! In my two previous posts never did I mention that you had to believe exactly what I do. Never did I mention that there is any type of exclusion associated with my beliefs. You guys implied that all yourselves. You sound kinda bitter.
Does this thread belong on this board, maybe, maybe not. But it is, so I replied. If you are one of the ranters then maybe you are an example of what you stereotype Christians to be. Close minded and self-righteous. Maybe not.
Ed

amen ed

"Letters From The Earth" by Samuel Clemens. aka Mark Twain. Somthing quite different from his more popular yarns. Satan is banished from heaven for a celestial day, for making fun of God's pet project.(man) While on this time out, he decides to visit earth/man. The Letters From The Earth are Satan's written observations back to heaven/the other Archangels. Sombody reports this to the Big Guy, and it's On!
Interesting Read to say the least...

I Love Jesus &amp; I play disc golf

i love green peas and i play disc golf

i luv THC, but can't play disc while do that./msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

I've never seen sandalman eat green peas while playing disc Mike. You'll live. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i'll be the UN DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is not important nor relevant how each of us may perceive yesterday or the next. Creation nor salvation are tangible. Even if it is only a limerick, "Do unto others...," holds the key to love, which should be the UNIVERSAL language. If we all just believed in and practiced TRUE LOVE then the rest would not matter......./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

truer words were never spoken, but whats it got to do with jesus?

"Is'nt Austin Texas the headquarters of the "United Atheist Organization"."

You saw what happened to M.M.O'Hare though...

she is buried at bart

Right On...............

The Golden Rule is OK and all. Try this one: "By faith alone". That holds the key to salvation.

BTW- What you do with you eternal soul is your business, but you'd better be sure you are right!

"you'd better be sure you are right!"

Typical threats and scare tactics. This post is exactly
why some of us dislike religion.

I'm with you Jim! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I wasn't intending to threaten anyone, just a statement of truth. It is just another in a series of life decisions. If Christians are right, then greater rewards await in the afterlife. If however, Christians are wrong then
they gain a rewarding life here and that's it. I for one hope that I am worthy of the Lord's blessings after I die.
Fellas, I am not naive in any sense. I lived a very wild life in my younger days and was far from a Christian life. I understand all of the arguments against beleiving in God. I understand that it is easy to condemn Christians as hypocrites because I did too. I know that we can sound pretty goofy when we say things like "bathe in the light of the Lord". But the bottom line is that my current life is much better since I became Christian several years ago. That is only a side benefit though.
Another thing, please remember that "religion" or going to church is not for you, it is meant as a tool for worshiping the Lord. Worshiping in a common group adds a benefit of accountability to each other.
I am no theologian nor do I intend to become one. I will however be happy to continue to post here in the hopes that maybe one person will take a look at Christianity again or for the first time.
Ed

ed, thats all groovy and wonderful and all. i am sure we are all very happy for you that you found a herd with which to run.

"...in a common group adds a benefit of accountability to each other"

thats how groups offer justifications for all kinds of atrocities from the crusades to hitler to cult movements.

If "you'd better be sure you are right" isn't a threat, I don't know what is.

That is the attitude that I, and many other non Christians, find abhorrent. As sandalman said, I'm happy for you, but don't tell me I'll suffer eternal torment just because I don't believe in the same <STRIKE>imaginary</STRIKE> supernatural beings that you do.

Kiss Hank's [*****] (http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv)

What the heck does it matter to you if someone tells you to make sure you're right about something you don't believe in?

Hey Garnett. Make sure the boogie man doesn't get you tonight!

For the upteenth time...this thread by all RATIONAL REASONING, was designed for those of like faith to seek one another out.

I found no reference of these people seeking out non-believers (for any reason - whether to tell them to make sure or simply discuss religion).

If you don't want to be witnessed to...mind your own business. You want to goad people into religious discussion or defending their faith, then do it like a the REAL RATIONAL man that you claim to be and quit whining about their responses.

<FONT COLOR="119911">I found no reference of these people seeking out non-believers (for any reason - whether to tell them to make sure or simply discuss religion). </FONT>

"I will however be happy to continue to post here in the hopes that maybe one person will take a look at Christianity again or for the first time. "

<FONT COLOR="119911">...do it like a the REAL RATIONAL man that you claim to be and quit whining about their responses.</FONT>

I didn't mean to come across as whining. I was simply trying to point out why I have a problem with it. I'm not going to dig up old messages, but I remember others whining to the effect of "why say anything at all... if you're not a Christian, ignore the thread."

Your first reference is in regards to a response that was made in "argument" towards someone that has a problem with the thread.

You can keep spouting all you want, but you know as well as I do that if you had never posted on this thread, you would not be being addressed on this thread by Christians. It is very simple. If you don't want to be preached at, then don't ask for it.

It's a little much to constantly bring up arguments against the Christian faith, on a thread where they were looking for one another, and then use it to complain about people preaching at you. Especially when you are fully aware that many believe that man will face judgement after this life. It would be folly to expect people who believe in such a judgement to not bring it up when someone wants to challenge their belief by saying that it is imaginary.

It will never be suprising for someone to warn others of danger. If you don't believe the danger exists, then why be offended?

I realize you have a problem with all of the atrocities that have and continue to be committed in the name of Gods. But it is time for you to realize that the mission that you're on is in the same vein as theirs. What's the difference between portraying the threat of Hell and insisting that people's beliefs in gods are false? It's all preaching to me.

The question is...Do you have a problem with someone looking for people of like faith on this message board? Do you have a problem with them sharing their thoughts with one another on this message board?

Fact is, you want to attack their faith.

Go ahead. But be prepared for a battle of futility and the ever persistent arguments you have a problem with which you have heard a thousand times and still want to argue with.

I would put a smiley face on my posts to you (because they usually make me laugh), but I know how you see it as a way to disguise my true feelings.

Hey Sandelman, I've never been accused of being a sheep or a Nazi before, pretty funny in my mind. Fess up, you're scared you're wrong aren't you? If you weren't afraid you and Jim G would care less what I said.
I have to agree that this started as an attempt by Christians to find each other on the course and it has turned into a bizarre example of why we Christians are so sorry for you "whiners". Being a rugged individualist does not make you intelligent. Maybe the millions of believers are onto something. You know if I were in your shoes I'd spend at least a minute or two examining faith since the stakes are so high.
BTW Sandelman- "Groovy"?
Keep posting, I won't stop.

actually, ed, i could NOT care less what you say. if i could, i would.

maybe the Billions of non-believers are onto something also. did you ever think of that? your religion is the only one that teaches "if you dont believe what i believe, then may you burn in hell forever". nice friendly diety ya got there, buddy.

the stakes are only what you say they are. i gave up worrying about it after years of trying to figure out why, if there is a "G"od, it would not want me to use my logic and reason, which would of course be "G"od-given gifts if it existed. believing in it is a non-rational behavior. by not believing you would be more true to it.

<FONT COLOR="119911">The question is...Do you have a problem with someone looking for people of like faith on this message board?</FONT>

No.

<FONT COLOR="119911"> Do you have a problem with them sharing their thoughts with one another on this message board? </FONT>

No, as long as I'm allowed to share my thoughts as well.

<FONT COLOR="119911">[Do I] have a problem with golfers that love Jesus looking for people of similar faith on this message board?</FONT>

No.

<FONT COLOR="119911">Do you have a problem with them sharing their thoughts with one another on this message board?</FONT>

Thoughts about disc golf - no, of course not.
Ideology/theology - <FONT COLOR="ff0000">Yes!</FONT>

But then again, I have issues with fantasy football pool threads out here too! Or college football threads. The reason I don't verbalize my dislike for them on those threads is because I've never heard of fantasy football fans crusading against one another. I don't see fantasy football fans crying "Death to the un-believers!" I don't see fantasy football fans self-righteously stating you suffer eternal damnation if you don't believe in my team.

If a deeply religious person was to say "I thank Jesus for giving me the skills to play as well as I did today." after playing a round of DG. I wouldn't have a problem with that either.

If I want to be "preached" at, or threatened with eternal damnation...then I know of many places I could go to, or people I could turn to satisfy that want. But it isn't on this board.

Why is this any more acceptable than the porno link on the thread that was deleted? Neither have anything to do with DG.

I don't care if DGers that love Jesus want to find one another here...it only matters to me when it becomes preaching.

Share your thoughts. Your thoughts are to debunk other peoples faith. Some of their thoughts are to debunk your disbelief. No reason to complain about it.

By the way Sandalman, never heard the "may you burn in Hell forever" one before. That's a little different than you may burn in Hell.

By the way, I hope that JG and Sandalman (whom I think are good and intelligent men), realize that their observations about what constitutes true Christianity are far removed from mine. I fully understand where these observations are coming from, but I hope that someday each will realize there are Christians who do not embrace a faith which they describe.

It would be easier if everyone would leave the word Christianity out of your arguments (it means too many different things) and focus your arguments on the individuals with whom you want to argue. When someone asks if I am a Christian, I ask for their definition of a Christian.

If you want to lump everyone together who believes in a creator and argue about the rationality of such a belief...have at it. It's been done millions of times and there's plenty of philosphers to draw from. After all the arguments, speeches and books have been examined, there is one thing for sure...

Nobody has successfully proven that belief, non-belief and everything in between is the most rational. So all of you might as well stop calling each other irrational. That is, unless you are going to come up with a proof which has gone undetected. Everything I've read on these threads is old news.

Here's my rationality. Everything that you can see, tough and feel has one thing in common. It is going to end. Knowing that there has been no rational explanation concerning the existence of "nothing" (even anti-matter is something), I believe in something other than everything I can see, touch and feel. I believe in that which transcends time (beginning and end - neither is rational), transcends distance and transcends everything that is irrational. There is only one rationality. It's called perfect. The one thing. Nothing exists ouside of it (literally), because there is no such thing as nothing or outside of it. Nothing other than it can exist.

But we exist in the irrationality of something other than perfect. So we argue. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Please help remind me never to ask you to explain your belief system there Randy! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Ching Lizard, read back though this entire thread. Notice the time frames. You will see that the majority of the blocks of posts were started by people posting within your specifications for acceptability, only to be challenged and ridiculed.

Then we have the inevitable posts warning of the consequences of disbelief.

I'll say it again. If you don't want to be preached to...don't challenge peoples beliefs.

Randy: I have never challenged or belittled anyone's beliefs.

In reviewing over half of the archives, I see where I interjected some levity a couple of times and then began objecting when talk turned toward self-righteousness.

I don't challenge anyone's beliefs out here at all...I object to a thread that isn't related to disc golf on the PDGA Disc-ussion board is all.

Just to help out...Another job of any "good Christian" is to help you find their way...No matter what you throw at them, it is their duty to turn the cheek and tell you "they love you" even though you may spit in their face or stick a knife in their belly, and preach more to you. Kinda like quicksand...

Just be like ME...LOVE EVERYONE &amp; EVERYTHING.../msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Might is Right
Monotheistic Ideology and the Promotion of Violence


Responding to a question on the religions of man, Mark Twain once remarked, �Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight� (1882).

Roy Baumeister, author of Evil � Inside Human Violence and Cruelty, echoes the observation made by Twain regarding religious idealism (the cherishing or pursuit of high or noble principles, purposes, goals) and adds that idealism leads to violence and evil because good, sought-after ends provide validation and rationalization for violent and repressive means.

�Most people, who do what their gods and their spiritual leaders tell them, feel certain that they are doing what is right and good, even if this includes hurting others� (1997).

Religious training promotes the belief that they who follow the "code of the elite" are the master races, the chosen people, and that others are evil deviants, pagans and infidels. Religious ideology also has a tendency to induce a superiority complex that is very often hypercritical and even violent towards all non-believers.

World history confirms centuries of religious violence, supporting both Baumeister and Twain�s conviction. Religion, in particular, Monotheism with its "might is right� philosophy, has been paramount in keeping mankind �in a state of superstition-influenced barbarianism for the last fifteen hundred years� (Russell, 1957).

Baurmaster labels religious violence as idealistic evil. In idealistic evil, moral virtues and idealism continue to be a groups driving force, but they support violence toward anyone perceived as �evil�. What makes idealistic evil unique in terms of violence is that the �holy� voice of the inner conscience incites the �believer� on to more relentless and brutal acts of violence. Thus, the violent act changes from one where it is simply acceptable to hurt others, to becoming an act of sacred obligation, a license for violence. �When inflicting violent harm goes from being a right to being a duty, it is fair to expect that the violence will become relentless and merciless� (Baumeister, 1997).

This relentless violence is amplified in the Monotheist�s moral code of reciprocity. The principle of reciprocity is the justification, motivation, the very essence of the concept of justice with reward and punishment. At its basic level, reciprocity is the principle of vengeance, "an eye for an eye", saith the Lord. The principle of reciprocity states that violent behavior in one group produces justification for violence by any and all opposing groups, thus creating the never-ending conflict. We see this all over the world today from Bosnia to Iraq from South Africa to China from Ireland to Israel from Afghanistan and right here in the United States. (Juergensmeyer, 1999).

Today, the U.S.A. incarcerates more of its total population than any other country in the world. We have a higher rate of violence, drug addiction, crime, and murder than all the other industrialized nations combined; yet 80 million Americans attend worship services on any given weekend. Looking at the above statistics one might ask if it is possible that the situation would be better if religion were not there at all?

Furthermore, given the high rate of violence in the U.S., one must surely question the effect of the Bible�s glorifications of violence and murders on the American psyche? Even the youngest Christian children are bombarded with x-rated stories of murder, genocide, sodomy and vengeance: Samson, Joshua the Warlord, Cain and Abel, Moses, the list of murderers and deviants goes on and on. Nine out of ten kindergarten children in America know the story of David slaying Goliath; a little man killing a big man with a weapon. David, like so many of the Christian heroes, is promoting the �might is right� theory to even our youngest and most innocent citizens (Kosmin &amp; Lachman, 1993).

In her book, The Born Again Skeptic�s Guide to the Bible, Ruth Green concludes that: "Children should not be subjected to the frightfulness of the Christian religion. It profanes their sweet innocence by introducing them to episodes of exquisite anguish and brutalizes their
sensibilities with vivid descriptions of violence and cruelties that even the adult mind does not like to contemplate� (1992).

Christianity suggests, to the impressionable consciousness of the young, that violence and bloodshed are an acceptable means of making the world better, and infers that the pagan savagery of human sacrifice is the �loveliest gesture of all time�. When the concept of a father, who cruelly drowns millions of his own innocent creations in a colossal flood, is presented to children as beautiful and worthy of societies admiration, what types of human behavior can be presented to them as reprehensible? (1992).

Psychologist Nathaniel Branden, Ph.D., goes one step further and asks the question: �And who can say with confidence that sexual abuse is more permanently damaging to children than threatening them with the eternal and unquenchable fires of hell?� (Kosmin &amp; Lachman, 1993).

I argue that the acceptance of violence to solve problems and the �might is right� theory that has become America�s trademark cannot be changed unless we first �overhaul� our religious idealism. It is my contention that violence and sex on TV, savage video games, and violent movies, are but modern day reflections of an idealistic cultural belief system that accepts
violence as a way to solve its problems. From Joshua and Moses to John Wayne and Mel Gibson, �good� violently overcoming �evil� is ingrained in America�s religious consciousness.
That�s exactly why movies such as Star Wars are so popular. This scenario of cultural violence is reinforced by Mark Juergensmeyer, author of Terror in the mind of God, The Global Rise of Religious Violence, who states that the religious community has been paramount in producing cultures of violence. He shows how the violence of religion has been personified in the concept of the cosmic war, (the eternal holy war supposedly raging in the heavens pitting all good
against all evil).

The gruesome history of religious violence exposes the bloody paradox of a holy war. �The idea of a holy war is that one resorts to military violence in the service of sacred, spiritual ideals� (�). One might hope that a divinely inspired war would be somehow less evil than regular wars, however, the opposite seems to be the case. Holy wars tend to be �dirtier, more brutal, fuller of cruelty and atrocity than ordinary wars� (Baumeister, 1997).

Baurmeister continues by saying, �It may be necessary to have two sets of rules of war: one for ordinary wars and another for holy wars. If your opponent declares a holy war, you are likely to be treated too much greater brutality. Declaring a holy war seems to mean that the ordinary rules, such as the Geneva Convention, are suspended� (1997). Today, we see the rules of the Geneva Convention being disregarded in Bush�s idealistic war against the evils of terrorism.

Juergensmeyer argues that it is the goal of all the worlds� religions to take apart the secular state, perceived as morally and spiritually bankrupt, and replace it with a government founded on religious moral principles (2001). Yet in reading the Bible, the Torah, or the Koran, one finds the God of the theist to be a savage god, he is the god of plunders, torturers, of warriors, and brutal conquest. He is a jealous and vindictive tyrant, who offers material rewards to those who worship him, and constantly abuses and kills his own children. He has the same human frailties of the peoples that created him (The Bible).

The world�s Monotheistic faiths believe that there can be no lasting peace on earth because their holy books authenticate and reinforce this belief, and as long as the Monotheists are allowed to spread their cosmology and wield any power, there will always be �wars and rumors of wars�.

Many Christians will argue that Jesus came to bring peace to the world but as Jesus clearly states in Mathew: 10:34/35/36 � �Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." "For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his own household�.

Furthermore, the book of Revelation, the �final chapter� of the Christian bible, clearly states that when the so-called �prince of peace� returns it will be with the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the red horse of war, the black horse of famine, and the pale horse of death. The return of Jesus with his armies for the �good� will coincide with the earthly arrival of Satan, and all the evil armies of the underworld, and will plunge the world into a thousand years of war and destruction. This apocalyptic mythology is marked by the belief that God will intervene at the end of the thousand years of war, establishing a new world in Heaven for the �good� and consigning the �wicked� to eternal destruction. In the Bible, apocalyptic elements are present in the books of Ezekiel, Isaiah, Joel, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelations. There can be no peace on earth for the �true� Christian believer (The Bible).

Likewise, if one holds Christianity up to a mirror, the reflection is the same apocalyptic mythology of the Muslim. For the �true believer� of Islam there can be no peace on earth until all the infidels are destroyed. The belief system of the Monotheist, with their "might is right� divine moral codes, has been the major influence in promoting violence and war for the
past 1500 years. Fifteen centuries of Monotheistic religions brutally killing each other in the name of �God�, each perceiving themselves as �good�, and each perceiving the other as the ultimate �evil� that must destroyed so that the �good� might triumph. A never-ending struggle of violence and death, only finalized with the end of the world. These violent Monotheist religions are dooms-day cults; born of fear and superstition in the womb of the dark ages, and �kept alive by greed, ignorance and an army of self-proclaimed clergy whose very livelihood depends on the continued preservation of bigoted intolerance� (Russell, 1957).

Unfortunately, laws or legislation have not been able to eradicate �religious� groups. Although extermination has been tried unsuccessfully many times in the past, these Monotheistic cults live on, spreading their poison ideologies like an incurable cancer. Someday, there may be a one-world government that will outlaw all worship of any God, for these beliefs will be looked on as being a detriment to society and to the overall advancement of mankind. However, until that time, one must ask: �If we are to change our violent culture, how do we begin to free ourselves from organized religion with its violent, might is right idealism?�
My research shows several ways in which one may begin to initiate a change in the �might is right� ideology in modern day society. First of all, according to Pascal Boyer, author of The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought, �Everyone has certain innate conceptual templates hard-wired into our brains from years of evolutionary development, and these concepts are susceptible to being attached to religious ideas� (2001). Studies show that religious concepts are passed down, generation-to-generation, culture-to-culture.

Boyer states that �once supernatural concepts become attached to certain naturally occurring conceptual templates in our brains, it becomes very difficult, though not impossible, to separate them� (2001). Therefore, to make a positive difference in the world one must reach out and educate those not already rooted in their particular faith (2001).

Secondly, the author of The Role of Xtianity in the Oppression of Women, Jennifer Drouin, states that it should be �obvious that Christianity has committed a serious crime in that it has severely limited the development of humanity over the past two thousand years, especially the development and equality of women� (1998).

She states that much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, is nothing more than a "handbook for the subjugation of women". Drouin goes on to say that Christianity abuses the natural, human fear of death in order to maintain its
authority over the general populace. Furthermore, the Bible promotes women as "wanton, devious, unclean, treacherous, ignorant, and singularly responsible for the sins of the world"
(1998). Since the public�s ignorance is Christianity�s greatest weapon, Drouin suggests that women must make the general public aware of the disgusting past of this dangerous, dogmatic
institution. It is time for women to stand up and openly defy the most powerful organization in the history of their suppression (Drouin, 1918).

Finally, evolutionary psychologist Dr. Adam Brown presents new research showing a direct correlation between religious dogmatism and an inadequate working memory (2001). The research explains that many people are not capable of evaluating the amount of information needed to compare different religious belief-systems because of an insufficient working memory, so they simply imprint their first religious impressions for life. Since they lack the necessary cognitive equipment to adequately compare the data, their first impression becomes an absolute, their �holy� truth. This correlation between religious dogmatism and an inadequate working memory reinforces Boyer�s theory of cognitive conceptual templates, and may lead to a possible cure for religiosity, much like other diseases that are genetically linked, such as
Alzheimer�s, Huntington�s or even ADHD. Yet, it is quite likely that the search of the �religious� gene will be a long and difficult struggle.

Meanwhile, as long as humans stay rooted in the might-is-right values of idealistic monotheism, mankind will continue on its violence path with �the good� people violently attacking �the evil� people in all aspects of our society, our country, and our world.

In conclusion, I propose that we as a nation, the most violent �civilized� nation on the planet, need to take a long hard look at where our children really learn their �might is right� values. Again, I argue that the acceptance of violence to solve problems cannot be changed until the decline of �might is right� religious idealism. Those of us who truly want to stop the
violence have to act. We must reach out and educate children and young adults not already rooted in their particular faith and expose the dangers of the Monotheistic�s �might is right� ideology to the general public. We must support women as they stand up and openly defy the patriarchal power of the church.

We must also invest our dollars in secular institutions and stop supporting Monotheism; for without public support, religion dies and becomes mythology. �Although we cannot hope for a society in which formal organized religion completely dies out, we can certainly stop behaving as if it was worthy of our collective respect� (Kant, 1790).


Works Cited

Baumeister, Roy F., Evil � Inside Human Violence and Cruelty, Henry Holt and Company, New York, New York, 1997

Boyer, Pascal, The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought, Basic Books, New York, New York, 2001.

Brown, Adam M, Dogmatism and Working Memory, SUNY at Albany, 2001

Drouin, Jennifer, The Role of Xianity in the Oppression of Women, www.internetinfidels.com (http://www.internetinfidels.com), 1998

Green, Ruth, The Born Again Skeptic�s Guide to the Bible, Freedom from Religion Foundation, Madison, WI, 1992.

Juergensmeyer, Mark , Terror in the mind of God, The Global Rise of Religious Violence, University of California Press, London, England, 2001

Kant, Immanuel, THE CRITIQUE OF JUDGEMENT, translated by James Creed Meredith, Boston Massachusetts, 1790

Kosmin, Barry &amp; Lachman, Semour P., One Nation Under God: Religion in Contemporary American Society, Harmony Books, New York, NY, 1993.

Russell, Bertrand, Why I Am Not A Christian. New York, New York: Simon and Schuster, 1957

The Bible, New International Version, International Bible Society, New Brunswick, New Jersey, 1978

Twain, Mark, Freedom Nest Quotes, http://www.freedomsnest.com/cgi-bin/qaq.cgi?ref=twamar&amp;subject=religion, 1882


at your service,

GB

Michael Brown, discgolfer for Jesus. Jesus was hated and killed for his teachings that religion was not the way. The heads of what scholars such as Michael Brown would determine to be Jesus's religion are the ones that demanded his death.

But no matter. Jesus still fits into the category of Michael Browns "that which is not allowable" because his claims of life after death get in the way of man's attempts to wipe out the problems of man. Man must return to the animal state where there is no violence between one another. Everyone knows that hamsters are better off not believing in god. That's why my daughter was up all night trying to keep her hamsters from killing each other. Maybe she's been implanting religious ideas in their heads.

That must be the most thoroughly researched and cited post I've ever seen out here!

Great Ching. Surely you don't want Jesus fans to start doing the same. Boy, we could have posts that take 2 weeks to read. Somebody is going to copy and paste CS Lewis's God in the Dock.

rock on michael, thanx! for a very thopughtful and enlightening article.

jesus fans cant do the same, at least not with the same reason, integrity and clarity.

your page-stretching diatribes are best suited for the rules discussions.

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

For those of you who couldn't wade through all that sociological babble in Michael Browns post, I'll boil it down for you:

Christians are criminals. Christians are child abusers. Christians are meglomaniacs intent on murdering all who disagree with them.

Very insightful Michael. Imagine how long you would be allowed to post in any quasi-public forum if you made the similar slanderous, derogatory remarks against any other identifiable group.

I agree RW - it isn't about disc golf.

Ching, you don't have any problem posting about music. And you've had no problem posting to this thread. It's all fun.

Fact is, Michael Brown doesn't really think I should be seperated forever from society any more than I think he should be seperated forever from Heaven. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Alls I know is when I first saw this thread; I thought it was a cool idea to let others know that there are those of us on the course that also loves Jesus. One of the things I love about being a Christian is being around other Christians. Since this thread started, I have been in contact via email, with other golfers that believe as I do, that I would most likely not of met, other then through this thread.

I am like the previous poster that knows both sides of this fence. I always joke that I was like a St. Paul Jr. harassing every �born-again� I could in my youth. Yet I disagree with EVERY person who hates this discussion. There are several discussions on this board I do not like, which are not disc golf related, but I just ignore them. If this thread is abhorrent to you, then ignore it, pretty simple�

Anywho, just my thoughts�.

TomCat

Michael Brown's long article is so totally ridiculous that it doesn't even deserve a response. It is irrational. He's committed many logical fallacies (e.g.- erecting a straw man, appeal to authority). Mr. Brow's vehement claims that Christians inevitably produce violence are totally absurd. The worst part is that he has attributed to Christians acts that were done by religious people but not by true Christians. He also lumps Christians in with the acts of all monotheists. Mr. Brown has somehow failed to realize that many people who have done things in the name of Christianity were not true Christians at all but only acting under the name of Christian.

Several of his points were extremely offensive, though. Such hate and intolerance would never be permitted against any other group than against Christians.

1) Imagine the outrage if someone said that homosexual are brain damaged, yet Mr. Brown claims this about religious believers:
"Finally, evolutionary psychologist Dr. Adam Brown presents new research showing a direct correlation between religious dogmatism and an inadequate working memory(2001). The research explains that many people are not capable of evaluating the amount of information needed to compare different religious belief-systems because of an insufficient working memory, so they simply imprint their first religious impressions for life."

2) It is easily demonstrated that Christianity has done far more for the equality and true fulfillment of women than any other force in the world. His slanderous remarks about Christianity's are patently false:

Mr Brown said:
"the author of The Role of Xtianity in the Oppression of Women, Jennifer Drouin, states that it should be �obvious that Christianity has committed a serious crime in that it has severely limited the development of humanity over the past two thousand years, especially the development and equality of women� (1998).

She states that much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, is nothing more than a "handbook for the subjugation of women". Drouin goes on to say that Christianity abuses the natural, human fear of death in order to maintain its authority over the general populace. Furthermore, the Bible promotes women as "wanton,devious, unclean, treacherous, ignorant, and singularly responsible for the sins of the world"

Since the public�s ignorance is Christianity�s greatest weapon, Drouin suggests that women must make the general public aware of the disgusting past of this dangerous, dogmatic institution."

These remarks are totally false. The words "disgusting, dangerous" are slanderous.

As a follower of Jesus Christ I am offended by these statements.

Lastly, I want to point out the real issue is not what have people done, because even sincere Christians can sin, sometimes grievously. The real issue is "who is Jesus Christ?" I believe that He is the loving Lord of the universe and the only one worth following. (Warning: I'm about to make a statement that will be heresy to many readers here.) Jesus is the living water that will satisfy your deepest longings that even disc golf will never satisfy. (Please don't stone me for that.) If you want to really see who Jesus is read the Gospel of John. If you want to talk more about Jesus or Christianity feel free to e-mail me.

You are quite right, Randy .. tis the institution not the individual per say ...

slan�der

Pronunciation: (slan'dur), [key]
�n.
1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.

Notice in the definition of slander, the word �false� � My paper presents scientifically researched facts. No superstition, no faith, no slander by definition.

FYI � This short paper was one of many projects for my class in �the sociology of peace and violence� at SUNY Fredonia. It received an A.


at your service,

GB

Michael, I'm glad you got an A. I got a D in a debate once. I was arguing pro mixed-race marriages at a Baptist College. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

snore

Michael wrote:

>>This short paper was one of many projects for my class in
>>�the sociology of peace and violence� at SUNY Fredonia. It received an A.

When people disagree violence ensues, therefore people should not disagree. Is that what you learned in the class?

Mr. Brown, That paper did not contain scientifically researched facts but prejudiced opinions.

Michael, Perhaps the saddest thing about your "paper" is that you miss the one thing that Christians know very well. Believing in God is an act of FAITH. It is not something your paper can even address, A or no A.

You can believe this however, MY religion doesn't not suppress society, does not promote violence, does not seek out the stupid as followers, and does not quote Mark Twain as an expert.

I will say this, my religion is Christianity. It is a vibrant loving relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. I attend service weekly on Sunday morning to reaffirm my relationship with Christ.
I look to the Bible for guidance. I pray every day to be a better man, husband and father. I pray for others who do not know God, and rejoice when someone becomes a Christian. I thank the Lord for his sacrifice on the cross during communion. And yes, I tithe to my church as prescribed in the Bible (willingly).

In addition, I pray for you guys whether you like it or not. It is my Christian duty to do so and my pleasure. It is also a Christian duty to witness to non-believers. So as much as you guys may loathe what I'm about to say,
Somewhere in the world tonight, someone is praying for you.

who says its a christian duty? would you do everything that is claimed to be a christian duty? which authority determines what acts are christian duties? there are those who believe killing doctors who perform abortions to be a christian duty.

i was raised catholic, and NOWHERE was it ever taught that "witnessing to non-believers" is any kind of "duty".

those kind of duties are what take your "christianity" and warp it into a cult.

hey... i did not know that christian is a religious, unless you mean general christian like (JW, Mormon, cathloic, etc) all i know is that "Born-Again Christian" is not a religious. any argument?

It is important to note that there are many different definitions of Christianity. It is also important to note that there are many different Christians. In fact, that would be every single one of them. That's right, no two are alike (not in this life).

You guys obviously want to converse. As long as you continue to use generalizations to describe "Christianity", you will be stumbling all over yourselves.

And it is not suprising for someone who was raised "Catholic" to have reservations concerning "Christianity". But same thing holds true with the word, "Catholic". It covers a very wide range of beliefs. Many of those beliefs have been responsible for some of the most atrocious events in the history of the world. Many of those beliefs have been responsible for some of the most charitable acts in history.

Perhaps Jim Carrol put it best on his album "Catholic Boy"...

"I'm a Catholic boy
redeemed through pain
not through joy"

spammer

Christians share their faith not as a duty, but out of love. If I see someone trapped in a burning building isn't the most loving thing to try and rescue them? Is it loving to igonore their predicament? What if they don't even know there is a fire and I'm disturbing them as they enjoy some other activity?

To me, the central queston is what is really there in the spiritual realm? People may want to deny the existence of Hell, but if it is really there then no amount of wishful thinking will get rid of it. But how can I know if Heaven and Hell are really there? The only way to know for sure is to get the word of someone who's been there and who is authoritative. That's Jesus. We need to find out what he said about these matters. Then that comes back to "Who is Jesus?" Is He trustworthy? Is He really God? If Jesus really is God, then I think that we should listen to Him.

The reason I'm a Christian is because Christianity is true. Jesus is indeed the truth and the life. There are many intellectual reasons to know that it is true. One persuasive reason that I know it is true is because it works. Ultimately I'm seeking love, joy, and peace in this life. Christ provides these.

Jesus said, "Come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest." There is no greater joy than knowing the Creator of the universe as my loving heavenly Father.

People should consider Christ for the sheer joy. "The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field which a man found and hid, and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."

Now some will respond that they find joy in other things, so just choose what you want. Disc golf gives a certain meaure of joy. That's when you have to ask what gives an eternal joy, and truly satisfies. And most importantly, what is true?

Just don't be agitated when people don't listen. There were plenty of people that didn't listen to Him when he was standing right in front of them. He was agitated by those that were abusing the people in the name of religion. Called them vipers. He was agitated when a disciple wanted to rise up against those that didn't want to listen.

As for those that didn't want to listen, He said Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

"It is a bad world, an incredibly bad world. But I have discovered in the midst of it a quiet and holy people who have learned a great secret. They have found a joy that is a thousand times better than any pleasure of our sinful life. They are despised and persecuted, but they care not. They are masters of their souls. They have overcome the world. These people are the Christians-and I am one of them." Saint Cyprian (200-258).

Lowe,

Just as you feel a duty to try and "rescue" all of us poor non-practicing-your-particular-brand-of-religion pathetic losers who must be living in agony without your lord and savior jesus christ in our hearts, some of us also feel compelled to try and rescue you from your prison of religion that clouds your judgement and actions.

So don't take it personally. If you want to "witness" here to save our souls, some of us will feel compelled to "witness back" at you to save yours. There are many religions in this world, and many many more forms of spirituality. While you are convinced that your particular one is "the right one", the rest of are not convinced of that at all. And you can't change that fact.

Well said Rhett. Except for the part of not being able to change the fact. There have been many people convinced to be convinced of that which they were convinced is no longer convincing. It kind of spurs on the debate. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

True Randy. Ask Jim Jones, David Koresh, Te &amp; Do, or P.T. Barnum how easy it is to convince someone to believe in their particular truth.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Roberts (http://wildlink.com/freelink/quote_history.htm)

Right. I understand.

But you know I don't really understand. If I did, I would think the same as you.

Same with the other way around. I know you understand. But I know you don't really understand. If you did, you would think the same as me.

What I am saying to you is beyond your references. My reasoning tells me that if there is an answer, it has to be one truth. Otherwise, it is still a question.

So I think the best thing one can do when addressing the question is to define one truth. Of course, the first requirement would be to rid the answer of all particular truths. Not an easy thing to do from our particular existence. Everything from which we make our judgements is based on that which we can define.

The only way I know to know the one truth is to want to know it. What is wanting to know it? How is it measured? Here's the kicker...it would be truly wanting to know. What's truly? If there is no truth, then it makes sense that nobody could truly want to know.

Does someone truly want to know who accepts something as true that is not true? It's a good question.

Randy, you are right about convivcing on an individual basis. I was not very in clear intending to say that you will never convince everyone, hence you can't ever change the fact that not everyone will agree with you.

<FONT SIZE="-2">man, that's still cumbersome language...</FONT>

Rhett, is this what you're trying to say?
"You can fool some of the people all the time. You can fool all the people some of the time. Buy you can't fool all the people all the time." --Abraham Lincoln.

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." -- Morpheus

"Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things - trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslans side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't a Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say." -- Puddleglum

That's not what I was saying at all, Jim.

I love you guys. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Rhett, I'm not at all in prison. But keep in mind that in case of rapture you're welcome top my discs. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif (Putters miss from 15 feet a lot though) Ed

Nor am I in need of rescuing or "saving". /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Allah you finished yet?/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif
I have golfed with the likes of.........well, I really dont know. You know why? I dont talk religion OR politics with my golf buddies.
Its keeps them my golf buddies.
I believe, what I believe, I vote, for who I vote for. I just leave it at that./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
I do leave you, to judge me by my character, for that is ME./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

randy gerde, you are NO FUN

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Sandalman, now I'm sad/msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif


/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

thanx for coming out THEO!!!!!!!!

HEAR THAT? LET IT GO FELLERS!!!!!!

Now we've got Theo researching message boards for us! lmao

Delete what you think you need to, Theo. I got no problem with you deleting anything.

Whats up Theo? Complaints get action ? PDGA resources.....Just who is the PDGA? I thought it was us and this is our resource. There is a lot of tripe on this thread, but it exists on many other threads. We all feel strongly about most topics and even though I have definate convictions on the subject of this thread, I am not offended by the views of those in disagreement with me. I am not interested in bantering with the politically correct on this thread or anywhere else. It is , however, of some interest to me to know who some of the other Jesus freaks are out there who I have not met because I'm not a disc golfer who loves Jesus , I'm a Jesus freak who plays disc golf. This thread reveals more about the character of individuals that I have not met than any of the other threads. Your post seems to suggest that the subject of this thread is out of order and it has the tenor of a Big Brother gag order. p.s. I'm not mad or offended, just wondering what direction this is going. I could live without the message board.

theo, and this is also respectfully, but how can you think about deleting this thread due to non-relevancy considering all the other threads on this board that have nothing to do with disc golf?

also, i am curious as to whos complaining? if it is the jesus-supporters, then lets ask them what did they expect. most everyone knows that religious discussions are not very polite events. what did they expect?

if it is coming from the jesus-opponents, then who cares, they dont need to read the thread.

as someone who has had my posts deleted from this thread already, i find it somewhat amusing that people would start a thread on a public resource of our organization, then complain after someone else "attacks" their viewpoints on what is obviously a contentious topic.

like it has been said before, if they dont like the content, dont read the thread. if this thread is not helping them find their like-minded souls, then as you point out, theres lots of other resources available.

censorship of specific topics is not the answer, imho.

let it go!!!!


die thread die!!!

Sandalman, I agree with your latest post 100%. Every word is exactly what I would have said. Hey, at least we can agree on something! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Theo, respectfully, I understand your point, but I agree with Sandalman. I gues it's called thread drift. Even though these are controversial issues I think the issues are far more important than football, rock music, beer, and all of the other topics that have no relationship to disc golf. If this topic is deleted then the thread "How do I throw my MRV?" needs to go as well. That's wasted far more space than this.

Well...except for the generalizations. Kinda like Theo saying "you guys".

Again, I would like to commend most of those that participated on this thread. Considering the subject matter, and considering the image of disc golf (people always talking about the image of disc golf being less than desirable), I think we did pretty good. Seems to get better and better as far as behaviour goes each time the subject comes up.

Same as the pot smoking issue. I remember back a few years ago, when these type subjects were quite uncivil. It takes awhile to bash out the harsh edges, and some emotion surfaces every once in a while, but I think our "chat" is some of the finest around.

I don't envy Theo's task. I know he was required to be kinda busy the last few days. Keep it easy on Theo. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

see, i'm making headway /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

the diff between this discussion and the rest of the fluff is that theo is getting complaints about this one. don't ask theo, ask the people who are complaining.

I agree with Randy. I'd like to thank eveyrone who posted on this thread for remaining relatively civil. We may all have different opinions, but the conversation pretty much stuck to debating those ideas/beliefs, and didn't get personal. That makes for fun and enlightening discussion, unlike the typical:
"your an idiot"
"you didn't spell you're right [*****]"
"stupid [*****]"
"bite me"

Unfortunately, some people can't handle their beliefs being dicussed, so the PC police have to come save the day...

So how do you throw an MRV?

i just throw it in the general direction of the basket and pray it goes in.

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Speaking about monotheistic generals, wasn't the famous WW-II General George Putton an atheist? I'd like to complain about him... /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Come on, Theo. Name names! Who complained? /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

It is a good thread. Let it be.

Speaking as one of the brain-damaged, delusional, memory impaired, child abusing, religionists who unfortunately has not yet been eradicated by law,

I'm not opposed to a little offensive free speech being allowed from anti-Christian bigots. I'd rather they expose themselves for who they are.

This was a telling quote: Unfortunately, laws or legislation have not been able to eradicate religious groups.

There is the underlying true agenda of the anti-religionists: eradication of those having an opposing view.

Knock it off Ching Lizard. I see what you're doing. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I might have to write and complain about Brakel's last post.

I'd like to throw my hat in with Stan, Sandalman, and Lowe. Thread drift happens. If censorship occurs on this thread (certainly within the rights of the PDGA) then I'd have to wonder why this thread - it would have the *appearance* of bias.

That being said, if anybody is interested in carrying on the discussion off this board I would be happy to discuss it elsewhere. May I suggest usenet? alt.religion.apologetics is the place to discuss the two topics: God real or non-real, and Christianity true or non-true.

I'll post a message and monitor for interested parties.

censorship on this board is funny. if you post info about a NON-SANCTIONED tournament in texas, then it gets deleted. but if it is in ARIZONA, then it lives. go figure.

Sandalman, why don't you give all the facts on that Texas thing instead of trying to make it sound like the only reason it was deleted was because it was non-sanctioned.

To quote Nick, "Your stupid!"

Oh, did the Texas10 thread or posts get deleted? Must be more to it than Texas, eh?

Sorry Lowe...<FONT SIZE="-2">(I've been busted)</FONT> /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

rhett, because i am trying to cause trouble. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

actually, rhett, one of the most vocalized reasons used to defend the killing of that thread was because it was a non-sanctioned tourney.

at least i refrained from asking the question on the phoenix tourney thread, which, judging from the looks of it at the moment, is something maybe you should consider.

There is nothing wrong with this thread, we have all called each other names on other thread also.

The shoeless one's thread was deleted because of the link to an Adult web site. Theo posted that he should probobly delete it and Pat agreed.

the "No Jim's Open" thread was deleted because it became a bashing sesion. Everyone was piling on to the guys running the tournament. The newer "No Jim's Open" thread started by C~ is still there. Everything is explained in that thread.

I personally don't think Theo should spend his time deleting threads. Shoot most of you may not even get to read this.

Now you guys who keep arguing about religion, this may not be the place. This should be the place for a beliver to find another to play a round with.

I personally don't have any problems with either one of you, as long as you have morals.

actually, pg, i was referring to a couple of limericks i posted here that tweaked someone the wrong way. all i have to say to them is that if they didnt have a dirty mind they would not have been offended. the reddoterator was never even close to getting into the action. while many followers of jesus have wonderful senses of humor, others just are no fun at all!

I tend to agree with you on that one pat.

I hate deletions of any thread. If the board allows posting by PDGA members and non - members, then a discussion is a discussion. If you do not like the thread, ignore it. Isn't that what a discussion is about?

Ed McGovern - I have been busy job hunting and have not been here for days but LOVED your post on 11/4 5:44pm

Rhett- You are trouble, have always been trouble, and most likely will always be trouble- but I still love you man!

Bruce - I think your fan club is lacking membership - but you are a lot like Rhett- you can 'stir the pot'

Theo - You got to be kidding....

sandalman, I forgot about the porn thread. I thought you were talking about the "No Jims". Sorry for "over ranting" on ya. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Tomcat, you still coming out to San Diego?

Hey Guys, Had some kind of flu yesterday and missed all the fun from Theo.

Hey Theo, I am current with the PDGA. Is this a PDGA website, or what?

Some of you guys are offensive, but heck so am I. I don't see anything here that should offend the PDGA. Just members discussing.

Just another example of someone (the person or persons that complained) intimidated by the discussion, imagine that. Why is it that drugs, sex, and alcohol are all OK to include in discussions but not Jesus?

Sandelman- Since I agreed with your post along with Lowe, we must have made a good impression on you. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Ed

BTW, Jim G (Ag Prov), I was just reading through the archives of this thread and I think that the verse you mentioned once is John 3:16. It's a great one to know, especially when you consider who said it.

Huh? Didn't John say "John 3:16" ???

I always thought that was "though I walk through the valley of death..." one.

Oops! Sorry! That's not about disc golf!

How's this?

<FONT SIZE="-1">"Though I drive across the river of disc-death,
I shall fear no water
For Thine retrieval stick is with me"</FONT>

Gotta keep bringin' up the topic of disc golf once in a while here. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

<FONT SIZE="-1">And now back to our regularly scheduled sermon.</FONT>

of course, ed! now if you could only learn to spell sandAlman correctly /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

so far on just this archive ed, pg, lowe, stan and rick have all blatantly agreed with me! thats a record for me! i hope dgd wont disown me though...

rhett, no worries.

I'm a beliver. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Whats a beliver ?

And , I have lost a 7 stroke lead three times in my disc golf career in the final round !!! In terms of discology , those were walkabouts in the valley of death. Ever see someone going through that? Ouch .... After blowing it like that I fall back on the things that I value above all else, God's love for me and my familys love for me. What a difference that makes.

if you throw DISCRAFT you wouldnt need "god" to protect your 7 stroke leads

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

sandalman said:
"rick...blatantly agreed with me!"

Dang. Now I support censoring of this thread. ;-)

S-A-N-D-A-L-M-A-N- We had done so well not being critical of mispelling! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
BTW- Back on familiar but opposing views: Innova is much better than Discraft. Can't get two same discs from Discraft to fly even similar. (Besides, when I do try the longer Discraft discs, my shoulder hurts, I dunno)
Stan- I'm with you on that, it's good to know that there are more important things in the world than DG. Especially the way I play sometimes.
GODROCS! Ed

Here is a link to a very beautiful presentation of the Easter message. The author, Max Lucado, explains the message of Easter in a very moving way. It really helped me to know and feel how much God loves me. I thought you might enjoy it at this Easter season.

Visit http://www.hechosethenails.net It takes a few minutes to watch, but it�s well worth it. Make sure you can hear the music as well.

Nice 'thread' resurrrection!

if you throw DISCRAFT you wouldnt need "god" to protect your 7 stroke leads

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif" ALT=":O



i think god would throw Discraft too!!!!! no way!!!!! hello brother!!!!! ;)

Hey Clizark,

Thanks for bringing back a good thread.

Lowe

400

: ) :

i didnt bring it back. but thanks! Im not sure the point of this thread yet can some one help me?

Im not sure the point of this thread yet can some one help me?



Here's the initial post that started this thread:


Two of my favorite things in life are disc golf and Jesus. Both are very important to me. I was wondering if anybody knows of any clubs or organizations for Christian disc golfers. I am in the Texas area, but would be interested in any information on the subject, whether it be in Texas area or some other state. If there is not anything yet, is there any interest?



It's mainly a place where followers of Jesus can connect with each other.

i didnt bring it back.



Yes you did. The last post before yours was from circle_2 on 04/25/06.

oops! i didnt know that. thanks.

now that i brought a thread back lets see whats going on out there?

Happy Fat Tuesday to all the religiously observant! :D

Happy Fat Tuesday to all the religiously observant! :D



im not religious what is Fat Tusesday?

great thread-Im a believer as well,I dont push my beliefs on anyone though.I feel that people that people are free to believe what they want,and as far as people who think that if you drink or smoke that you are a non believer-then you are IGNORANT. :D

great thread-Im a believer as well,I dont push my beliefs on anyone though.I feel that people that people are free to believe what they want,and as far as people who think that if you drink or smoke that you are a non believer-then you are IGNORANT. :D



Most brilliant post on the MB by far!

Happy Fat Tuesday to all the religiously observant! :D



Happy Ash Wedneday... And yes, Mardi Gras was a blast as usual.

I agree �

I agree �



With who or what?

as far as people who think that if you drink or smoke that you are a non believer-then you are IGNORANT.


on the flipside: those that think that if one doesn't drink or smoke then one must also be a bible-thumper are also jumping to conclusions. :)

I agree,But there is consequences for sin.God loves all Even as we walk as the world walks.

on the flipside: those that think that if one doesn't drink or smoke then one must also be a bible-thumper are also jumping to conclusions. :)


Denny's words are worth repeating.

"OK", Repeat and repeat , Bible Thumber or Pagan beater..You make the call...

Bump. It is okay to ignore this post if you have differing views but please be gracious.

Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also......

We should really consider having a Weekend of Disc Golf and Fellowship in '08

I just picked up on this thread and I have to say I appreciate reading all the things said here! My son and I are christians and have been playing disc golf with people of all walks of life. We believe there a reason for the people God puts you in contact with in your life. It's providence....I have never believed in living in a bubble. If one is going to make a difference in life, one has to embrace all people and first understand them before you can expect to be understood......So being a part of the disc golf community is a very spiritual experience for me, and that is because of the friendships I have. Unconditional friendships...

Better be careful, someone will bring back the Disc Golfers for Satan thread. :D

This is my favorite thread, the religious are great debaters.

Go to pbs.org under bill moyer's journal and watch the interview with Victor Gold where he talks about how the religious right have taken over the republican party and made it intolerant. Are religious disc golfers tolerant of the rest of us or can we play without saying prayer before we begin? :D

Very well said Senior!

Better be careful, someone will bring back the Disc Golfers for Satan thread. :D

This is my favorite thread, the religious are great debaters.

Go to pbs.org under bill moyer's journal and watch the interview with Victor Gold where he talks about how the religious right have taken over the republican party and made it intolerant. Are religious disc golfers tolerant of the rest of us or can we play without saying prayer before we begin? :D



I am a disc golfer of FAITH, not religion.... There is difference in my opinion :DI am very tolerant... prayer is something that most people faithful or not, do without even knowing they are doing it. God built us that way... So you may think you are not praying, but in some way you are thinking prayers all the time... At some point some people find faith and become consious of the fact that prayer is part of them :D

Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also......



Evil has no denomination, it is neither secular nor religious yet can occur anywhere. Intolerance is it's name, conviction drives it. Humor and graciousness combat it.

I would not force religion on any person, nor would I have it forced upon me.

Better be careful, someone will bring back the Disc Golfers for Satan thread. :D

This is my favorite thread, the religious are great debaters.

Go to pbs.org under bill moyer's journal and watch the interview with Victor Gold where he talks about how the religious right have taken over the republican party and made it intolerant. Are religious disc golfers tolerant of the rest of us or can we play without saying prayer before we begin? :D



I am a disc golfer of FAITH, not religion.... There is difference in my opinion :D



Excellent, you'd of liked my dad.

The bible is the best written fairy tale of all time meant to teach people how to live their lives well with compassion and thought...Christianity just made money off of our ignorance and belief that the bible's metaphors are true. Jesus was the most successful business man and manipulator in the history of our time which has lead to evil men like Ted Haggard and other pedophiles to take power in our communities. And I am extremely knowledgable Christian with 11 years of Catholic schooling under my belt. OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE TRUTH!!!!!

I also apoligize for ruining your nice thread...

Nice try at ruining the the thread.Since Wasn't brought up Catholic schooling . I don't have those rituals to detoured me from the truth. Please don't forget Jesus got angry and he cursed....Be..Blessed ..

Maybe this is a good place to post this.
Today we installed the back nine at a Christian Ranch called El Shaddai www.stlchristianranch.com (http://www.stlchristianranch.com) .
We will be installing the front 9 next week.
The place is awesome for disc golf there will be 2 tees and 2 pins. If I knew how to post pics I have many from today!

Jesus was the most successful business man and manipulator in the history of our time which has lead to evil men like Ted Haggard and other pedophiles to take power in our communities.


I can't tell if that's serious or not. Jesus was a man. He had his strengths and his weaknesses. By all accounts I believe he was a man of virtue who sought to help others and preached love and tolerance. He was not conceived by a virgin mother. He was not <u>the</u> son of god any more than I am or anyone reading this thread is. He did not die on the cross and then come back from the dead. He isn't coming back from heavan to earth to kick of this rapture party I keep hearing about.

Now, if people want to use the stories as literary devices that inspire them to leave purposeful lives and be at peace with their fellow men/women then THAT IS A GOOD THING!

But to call Jesus a manipulator because he had twelve dudes following him around? The manipulators are those that have taken the Jesus stories, twisted them, and used hell and damnation to scare people into behaving as they desire.

Jesus was not a rich man, he literally had only the clothes on his back by every account found. I don't think any historian, Christian, Muslem, Jewish, atheist, etc. would say he was rich in wealth.

What he was rich in was a whole new way of looking at things. Once again, just about any historian will tell you that Jesus taught a concept that was so new and original that often times even his closest associates could not understand it. That concept was to love your neighbor. This was a new way of thinking. We don't see it as such, because most of us were raised to think this way, but it was not something done at that time. You could love your family, but that neighbor was not family and did not deserve your concern.

Now I do believe in evil, and unfortunately there have been those that use Christ's words for evil, but that does not make Jesus wrong.

Jesus was the most successful business man and manipulator in the history of our time which has lead to evil men like Ted Haggard and other pedophiles to take power in our communities.


I can't tell if that's serious or not. Jesus was a man. He had his strengths and his weaknesses. By all accounts I believe he was a man of virtue who sought to help others and preached love and tolerance. He was not conceived by a virgin mother. He was not <u>the</u> son of god any more than I am or anyone reading this thread is. He did not die on the cross and then come back from the dead. He isn't coming back from heavan to earth to kick of this rapture party I keep hearing about.

Now, if people want to use the stories as literary devices that inspire them to leave purposeful lives and be at peace with their fellow men/women then THAT IS A GOOD THING!

But to call Jesus a manipulator because he had twelve dudes following him around? The manipulators are those that have taken the Jesus stories, twisted them, and used hell and damnation to scare people into behaving as they desire.



Denny, go back and watch Za's little religious expose again. The observation that most if not all of Christianity's motifs came from other religions, is laid out pretty clearly. That includes the 12 disciples. The fact that the historical record (other than the bible) has no mention of the "greatest" being that ever came to earth is compelling.

Jesus wasn't manipulative, religion and religious leaders are. Jesus was most likely a myth, the same as all other religious icons are.

Jesus was most likely a myth, the same as all other religious icons are.


Maybe "Jesus" was a literary sub-genre. It could have been going on for thousands and thousands of years. It could have started as a story of "Jesus" that helped an elderly couple, whose donkey had died, carry their stuff to the next town. The next writer, not to be outdone, wrote a story about another "Jesus" who taught a village a better way of irrigating their crops and helped all the kids learn to read. Then "Jesus" became a wandering philosopher with two or three pidgeons. And then the next "Jesus" started to get mini-superpowers like being able to get a five-foot vertical leap to snap apples out of trees easily. Then there was the "Jesus" as a super-stud with a harem of 50. Then the next "Jesus" got some more mini-superpowers like the ability to read minds and a few Jedi-mind tricks. Only when some super-slick marketers arrived on the scene and started a pyramid scheme to market bibles did "Jesus" transcend fiction and become "The Word of GOD". Of course "The Word" has been edited again, again, and again, but still remains "The Word". Kind of like "we are at war with East Asia, we have always been at war with East Asia".

Possibly, but I think he was a prophet for an obscure religion at the right time. As that religion grew, so did the telling.

Most of the biblical writings concerning Jesus occurred 60 to 100 years after his death. I view it sort of like a religious version of the telephone game. As the stories were retold during the waning of the pagan religions, those pagan stories that were most liked were simply transfered to the "new" religion.

Even that is a natural evolution, that is, it's not intended. It only really gets nasty with Constantine and Catholicism where you have active manipulation of the text and writings to serve the power of, at first Constantine, then the Church, and then of course the European Monarchies.

Now it's all about interpretation. The same as with Islam, people read and focus on the parts of the bible that best serve their self interests. You can bet there is no Judeo-Christian branch that has forgotten to keep in that part about the tithe. :)

Okay, admittedly I didn't read back through this thread, but I fail to see what all this has to do with Jesus "aka Jay" Alou. I hardly think you could call him a "prophet" and tarring all Dominicans with same "pagan" brush is just plain bigotry. Lyle I think we all expected more from you.

;) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

not really - most of his posts dont make any sense,he runs the dumbest event at TX states every year that no one plays but yet he still tries to get people to enter. :eek: The guy gives Texans a bad name,please dont judge all of us by his ignorant statements. :D

not really - most of his posts dont make any sense,he runs the dumbest event at TX states every year that no one plays but yet he still tries to get people to enter. :eek: The guy gives Texans a bad name,please dont judge all of us by his ignorant statements. :D


i hope that you're joking. if not you're just adding to the stereotype of the typical texas redneck.

not really - most of his posts dont make any sense,he runs the dumbest event at TX states every year that no one plays but yet he still tries to get people to enter. :eek: The guy gives Texans a bad name,please dont judge all of us by his ignorant statements. :D



trust me, you would rather have us judge Texans by his statements than your extremely ignorant insults. Always the Christian response when your beliefs are challenged by an open mind (I was raised Catholic). By the way Christianity's basic beliefs were all copied from other religions. The facts are there... :eek:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&amp;hl=en

Please watch this...

apparently you and I have different views,I usually dont discuss religion and politics with anyone I kinda just keep that to myself.

http://www.survivinggrady.com/uploaded_images/EasterBunny-705622.jpg

amen

apparently you and I have different views,I usually dont discuss religion and politics with anyone I kinda just keep that to myself.


Ha!

If that were true, then maybe you should have added the words "that don't pertain to religion or politics, cuz I keep my opinions on those topics to myself" to the end of this statement:
The guy gives Texans a bad name,please dont judge all of us by his ignorant statements.

......please dont judge all of us by his...... statements. :D



Gots to say man, you, as a defacto representative of Tejas disc golfers, would no doubt fare better if we did. Keep stirring the pot Lyle.

Okay, admittedly I didn't read back through this thread, but I fail to see what all this has to do with Jesus "aka Jay" Alou. I hardly think you could call him a "prophet" and tarring all Dominicans with same "pagan" brush is just plain bigotry. Lyle I think we all expected more from you.



No No, that's not Jesus, that's Jesus... :D

not really - most of his posts dont make any sense,he runs the dumbest event at TX states every year that no one plays but yet he still tries to get people to enter. :eek: The guy gives Texans a bad name,please dont judge all of us by his ignorant statements. :D



My philosophy on this is that if I run a really dumb event side by side with Texas States it will make Texas States look that much better! Right now I'd say Texas States is looking almost as good as Worlds. Next year I'm shooting for USDGC caliber.

apparently you and I have different views,I usually dont discuss religion and politics with anyone I kinda just keep that to myself.



I tend to agree with this in terms of religion. On the other hand, if it gets in my face, generally I will comment. BTW - which atheist was it that started this thread?

I believe a person's religion is between that person and their God. When they try and sell it to the rest of us then I have a problem. Now I will admit, these days I'm probably more testy than usual. That might be because against our Constitution, our courts have just decided that our President's use of Faith Based charity initiatives is O.K. I'm kind of partial to our Constitution and believe in the separation of church and state. The fact that conservatives in this country have continually railed against the left for their "use of the courts to legislate" while building an increasingly conservative legal system that is willing to ignore our laws, sort of grinds me.

So your position that your religion is private is one I agree with. I just wish that our government took the same position.

Ya know what this board really needs? An Instant Graemlin that claps. :D

The fact that the historical record (other than the bible) has no mention of the "greatest" being that ever came to earth is compelling.

Jesus wasn't manipulative, religion and religious leaders are. Jesus was most likely a myth, the same as all other religious icons are.



You're statement is not correct.

Please consider this from a non-Christian, Roman historian:

Tacitus, Annals, xv. 44, 64 A.D.
Writing about the Neronian persecution- �And so, to get rid of this rumor, Nero set up as the culprits and punished with the utmost refinement of cruelty a class hated for their abominations, who are commonly called Christians. Christus, from whom their name is derived, was executes at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. Checked for the moment, this pernicious superstition again broke out, not only in Judea, the source of the evil, but even in Rome,�

From the beginning people followed Jesus (and often were killed for their faith) because He is alive-- He was resurrected from the dead. Today, people still follow Jesus because He is alive.

Most of the biblical writings concerning Jesus occurred 60 to 100 years after his death. I view it sort of like a religious version of the telephone game. As the stories were retold during the waning of the pagan religions, those pagan stories that were most liked were simply transfered to the "new" religion.



With all respect I think that some of you need to do a little more homework. Although there is an element of truth to the dating mentioned it's not totally accurate, and in addition it refers to the dates when some of the documents were completed (although I don't think the dates were as late as stated either).

However, there are portions that are much earlier than the final form. The most important is a creed found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 the apostle Paul writes. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day."

Critical scholars believe that Paul received this in the 30s, about 3 to 8 years after the crucifixion itself. His wording and stylistic considerations show that when Paul received this creed it had already been formalized and passed around at an even earlier time. From the very beginning the followers of Jesus have based their faith on one fact-- Jesus is alive because He was resurrected.

Because Jesus is alive 10 of his first 12 followers died martyrs death for their faith. Not one recanted from the story to save his life.

And even today I also attest that Jesus is alive. I know Him personally.

Jesus was the most successful business man and manipulator in the history of our time



You may be right. Jesus was either:
1) A Liar.
2) A Lunatic
3) The Lord.

If He was a liar then He was evil and the kindest thing a person could do would be to prove that He was a liar so that people would stop being deceived.

But if Jesus was a liar or a lunatic don't say that He was a good man with some good moral principles. If He was a liar He wasn't good; He was evil.

But if Jesus really is Lord then you decide how you should respond...

The fact that the historical record (other than the bible) has no mention of the "greatest" being that ever came to earth is compelling.

Jesus wasn't manipulative, religion and religious leaders are. Jesus was most likely a myth, the same as all other religious icons are.



You're statement is not correct.

Please consider this from a non-Christian, Roman historian:

Tacitus, Annals, xv. 44, 64 A.D.
Writing about the Neronian persecution- �And so, to get rid of this rumor, Nero set up as the culprits and punished with the utmost refinement of cruelty a class hated for their abominations, who are commonly called Christians. Christus, from whom their name is derived, was executes at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. Checked for the moment, this pernicious superstition again broke out, not only in Judea, the source of the evil, but even in Rome,�

From the beginning people followed Jesus (and often were killed for their faith) because He is alive-- He was resurrected from the dead. Today, people still follow Jesus because He is alive.



I think we have a difference in perspective on this. You are correct, there are a small handful of comments on a Christus a character supporting the Christian faith. Funny how Christus became Jesus, funny how the person who fed thousands on a mountain top and walked on money (talk about your Freudian slips, I meant walked on water) is relegated to a couple of comments in the non-biblical historical record.

I do not consider the few comments made to be a historical record of the "greatest" being to ever live on this planet. Those few comments could have been made about any leader of any religion and IMO are highly accurate. They display exactly what Jesus was. A leader in a relatively (at that time) minor religion. That is, he got the same press any person would have in that situation, not the press that someone who walked on water etc. etc. etc. would have.

BTW - even the reference you used is telling. notice it was dated well after Christ was gone.

I do not doubt that in the end, the person who was Christ was real, but he wasn't the offspring of a God with powers beyond mortal man (in essence). He was just another priest who's record has been well embellished.

Most of the biblical writings concerning Jesus occurred 60 to 100 years after his death. I view it sort of like a religious version of the telephone game. As the stories were retold during the waning of the pagan religions, those pagan stories that were most liked were simply transfered to the "new" religion.



With all respect I think that some of you need to do a little more homework. Although there is an element of truth to the dating mentioned it's not totally accurate, and in addition it refers to the dates when some of the documents were completed (although I don't think the dates were as late as stated either).

However, there are portions that are much earlier than the final form. The most important is a creed found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 the apostle Paul writes. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day."

Critical scholars believe that Paul received this in the 30s, about 3 to 8 years after the crucifixion itself. His wording and stylistic considerations show that when Paul received this creed it had already been formalized and passed around at an even earlier time. From the very beginning the followers of Jesus have based their faith on one fact-- Jesus is alive because He was resurrected.

Because Jesus is alive 10 of his first 12 followers died martyrs death for their faith. Not one recanted from the story to save his life.

And even today I also attest that Jesus is alive. I know Him personally.



You don't even have to look hard Lowe, just go to Wikipedia:

"The solution most commonly held in academia today, the two-source hypothesis, has Mark being written in the 60's or slightly after the year 70, with Luke and Matthew following 10-20 years later.[9] Other solutions, such as the Augustinian hypothesis and Griesbach hypothesis, would give Matthew priority and a possible date of 40. John is most often dated to 90-100,[10] though a date as early as the 60s, and as late as the second century have been argued by a few.[11]"

BTW - quoting the bible, a text that his been plucked and rewritten to serve the needs of the Church and King James hardly seems a good way to prove your point. I actually give the biochemical processes that occur in your body more credibility than the bible and I most certainly give the dead sea scrolls more credibility.

Finally, let me reiterate, what one wants to believe is one's personal business, just don't force it on me or try and sell it to me. I see people do great and wonderful things in the name of religion. I seen them be better people and better parents than they would have been. Consequently, I like religion. I just want it kept separate from me and from my government.

I think we have a difference in perspective on this. You are correct, there are a small handful of comments on a Christus a character supporting the Christian faith. Funny how Christus became Jesus,



Jesus was called "Christus" because that was a Latin term. Christus was a title that meant the same as the Hebrew Messiah (which means "Anointed One").

A Roman historian called Christianity a small sect because from his perspective it was. In the beginning it was insignificant compared to the Roman Empire. (BTW, which is more influential in the world today?)

You don't even have to look hard Lowe, just go to Wikipedia:



That paragraph from Wikipedia sounded fairly reasonable, but I wouldn't always use Wikipedia as the most reliable source of information. Due to it's nature the information can be unreliable.

But you actually missed my point. I wasn't even talking about the gospels. I was talking about the earliest core of the Christian message. It's quite relevant to use the Bible because it is a good source of historical information about Jesus. If Jesus really is God, as He claimed to be, then it's extremely important to deal with that fact.

You don't even have to look hard Lowe, just go to Wikipedia:



That paragraph from Wikipedia sounded fairly reasonable, but I wouldn't always use Wikipedia as the most reliable source of information. Due to it's nature the information can be unreliable.

But you actually missed my point. I wasn't even talking about the gospels. I was talking about the earliest core of the Christian message. It's quite relevant to use the Bible because it is a good source of historical information about Jesus. If Jesus really is God, as He claimed to be, then it's extremely important to deal with that fact.



Why wouldn't you use Wikipedia? The people who study this kind of thing (that is an on-line user based encyclopedia) find it to be highly accurate and self correcting. If you think about it critically, there has been one or two highly publicized incorrect items that were quickly found and corrected.

If you go look at the topic On Wikipedia, you will find that Paul's letters were at least 50 years after Christ's death. More importantly, all your sources were believers, not actual historians from outside the faith. I have a problem with that.

You used an interesting logic train. If Jesus is God, then you have to accept that fact. But you haven't proved point A and if you do, the Bible was still written by men. We know darned well that men are foible, especially those who think they have a special relationship with God.

I think we have a difference in perspective on this. You are correct, there are a small handful of comments on a Christus a character supporting the Christian faith. Funny how Christus became Jesus,



Jesus was called "Christus" because that was a Latin term. Christus was a title that meant the same as the Hebrew Messiah (which means "Anointed One").

A Roman historian called Christianity a small sect because from his perspective it was. In the beginning it was insignificant compared to the Roman Empire. (BTW, which is more influential in the world today?)



This one is my favorite. Trust me, I don't care who you are, if a guy can walk on water and do the things Jesus was reported to do, you wouldn't pass him over as a minor point. On the other hand, as a historian, you might recognize that the major precepts of the faith were remarkably similar to the precepts of your own faith, and other religions that preceded Christianity. That might tend to make you treat the religion with some brevity.

Why wouldn't you use Wikipedia? The people who study this kind of thing (that is an on-line user based encyclopedia) find it to be highly accurate and self correcting.



Lyle,

You're probably busy, but please read my posts a little more carefully. I didn't say not to use Wikipedia, just as a general rule to use it with caution. My point was only that the people who post to Wikipedia may not always be accurate.

This one is my favorite. Trust me, I don't care who you are, if a guy can walk on water and do the things Jesus was reported to do, you wouldn't pass him over as a minor point



The Romans thought that once they had killed Jesus that his influence was ended. What caused the resurgence of people following Jesus, often at the cost of their lives, if Jesus was not resurrected?

This one is my favorite. Trust me, I don't care who you are, if a guy can walk on water and do the things Jesus was reported to do, you wouldn't pass him over as a minor point



The Romans thought that once they had killed Jesus that his influence was ended. What caused the resurgence of people following Jesus, often at the cost of their lives, if Jesus was not resurrected?



Ignorance and manipulation

how do you feel that you are being manipulated,no one on here cares what you believe or at least I dont. I have several friends that are non-christian and christian but we dont discuss the issue and share a lot of the same bad habits;nothing here really needs to be controversial.I am definitely not a holy-roller and practice non-denominational but I do believe in god and creationism and dont judge people that dont believe because that is their perogative to choose their own religion or none at all.Whether your baptist,pagan,atheist,catholic,buddhist,whatever that should be everyones perogative,but there is no reason to push your beliefs on another. Anyway, this is my last post on this thread,that I thought was limited to just people that were believers,but instead is now infested with people just trying to cause drama.

Seperation of Golf and God

Anyway, this is my last post on this thread,that I thought was limited to just people that were believers,but instead is now infested with people just trying to cause drama.


Remember folks, this is the same guy that said

The guy gives Texans a bad name,please dont judge all of us by his ignorant statements.


Why does the term "plankeye" keep popping into my mind? Somebody please remind me what "plankeye" means.

Why is it that disc golfers cannot turn off something that they just want to stir?

If you don't believe in Jesus Christ, that is your right. All message boards have different sets of topics for people to participate in, if you feel that you need to create drama on a thread that you don't agree with, go start your own debate thread.

There are alot of disc golfers that believe in Jesus, and there are alot who don't.

Noputtin,

Good to see you on here again! I hope you're doing well.

Lowe

thanks for responding on here Craig!,maybe now Lyle will not post his opinions which contradict this thread.

hey all: i got a bit carried away expressing my opinions on this thread. i fully respect christians and all other people of faith that practice the principles of tolerance, love, charity, etc. in their daily affairs.

joe, if you're calling out atheists as being poor disc golfers, then maybe you'd be up for a fun challenge match whenever i get back to visit austin again. i like to play for $1, you pick the course. :cool:

when did I make a statement against Atheist,im not the one talking down on atheism;maybe you should read the post where I replied to "deadluva" and you will see that I could care less what you believe,you guys are the ones that are bitter.Lets make it $1 a hole and it might be worth my time. :eek: I will make sure to bring my Ipod in case you want to bring up religion :Djust no pitch and putt courses please.

just no pitch and putt courses please.


circle r is sweet, moody's, i'm looking forward to playing the new circle c and twin parks. not a fan of settler's, though.

maybe now Lyle will not post his opinions which contradict this thread.



Personally, I don't mind Lyle posting his ideas here. I think he's reasonable and helps create some interesting debates.

My unofficial DG motto is, "I'm glad that you don't have to be good to enjoy disc golf." Anyone who's seen me throw can attest to that. (I gave Dave M a great grip lock demonstration in Charlotte!) Being a person of faith certainly hasn't helped my disc golf game, but disc golf has sometimes been a distraction from my relationship with God.

Noputtin,

Good to see you on here again! I hope you're doing well.

Lowe



Is/was something wrong with the Lefty?

your right,that was uncalled for and I erased that part of the thread,I dont have the highest rating on this board by any means and was once an 800 rated player myself.I play golf with a lot of 800 rated players around here and are my friends as well so I have nothing against 800 rated players at all.I guess it just makes me mad when people posts statements on this thread that are obviously going to cause problems,when they could just ignore the thread just like I would probably ignore an atheist thread if there was one and not post statements that would cause problems on their thread.

Joe,

That was a gracious response, so I erased my part of the post that referred to it too.

I do agree with you that if people disagree with our faith then they're free to just ignore this thread. Some claim that Christians have tried to "force their beliefs" on them, but some of the posts from unbelievers here have been made to "force their unbelief" on us. If my beliefs are attacked, especially with uninformed or erroneous information, then I will defend my position.

All is well in lefty land! There is just a whole lot of life gettin in the way of flinging lids. Besides, after all this time I'm trying to enjoy some other pastimes in life.

I hope that this thread can stay on track, we all just want to get along.

This thread is as funny as this story:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/25/free.speech/index.html

how do you feel that you are being manipulated,no one on here cares what you believe or at least I dont. I have several friends that are non-christian and christian but we dont discuss the issue and share a lot of the same bad habits;nothing here really needs to be controversial.I am definitely not a holy-roller and practice non-denominational but I do believe in god and creationism and dont judge people that dont believe because that is their perogative to choose their own religion or none at all.Whether your baptist,pagan,atheist,catholic,buddhist,whatever that should be everyones perogative,but there is no reason to push your beliefs on another. Anyway, this is my last post on this thread,that I thought was limited to just people that were believers,but instead is now infested with people just trying to cause drama.



I was refering to this quote not this thread. "What caused the resurgence of people following Jesus, often at the cost of their lives, if Jesus was not resurrected?"

My answer to how there was a resurgence of followers = manipulation (pushed on the helpless and needy) and ignorance

Sorry if any remarks may offend you or damage the integrity of this thread but you have to realize that you are talking about a water walking, raising from the dead, superhero from 2000 years ago?

I was raised a Catholic. Went to the Catholic school, did CCD on Saturdays, etc. Then I went to public school.

I am now a recovering Catholic.

Believe in want gets you there. Be it a Budda, Jesus, Rock, water, tree, Disc,.... whatever.

Wanna come to my "church"? Let me know.

You'll "see the light" if you haven't already.

Church is a state of mind.

I've seen them in big old buildings, under an overpass, out of a truck and even in the middle of a river.

Get your salvation wherever it comes from, Whatever level you need to make you believe in what your trying to BELIEVE.

believe: verb

to regard (something) as true

Example: I believe I'll have another BEER.

Danish: tro p�
Dutch: geloven
Estonian: uskuma
Finnish: uskoa
French: croire
German: glauben
Hungarian: hisz
Icelandic: tr�a, leggja tr�na� �
Indonesian: mempercayai
Italian: credere
Norwegian: tro (p�)
Polish: wierzy
Portuguese (Brazil): acreditar
Portuguese (Portugal): acreditar
Romanian: a crede
Slovenian: verjeti
Spanish: creer
Swedish: tro
Turkish: inanmak

It's all whatever is in your head.
Not something you can see or touch, if it was, this thread wouldn't even exist.

:D,whats up Fish- do you have time to play a round tomorrow at the country club? It looks like I have the day off.

Call me @ TPCC. I'll see what I can get done.

Call before you come out,.... Might need some supplies.

Believe in want gets you there. ...It's all whatever is in your head.



Hmmm... I have to respectfully disagree. Lets look at the Law of Non-congtradiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_non-contradiction) which states that "one cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time" [Excursue: According to Allan Bloom, the Law of Non-contradction is "the premise of philosophy and the foundation of rational discourse" ... According to Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas, this is a fundamental principle of thought..."]

So according to the Law of Non-contradiction:
if X says, "God exists"
and Y says, "God does not exist"
they cannot both be true. One statement is true, and one statement is false.

Likewise, if
A says "Jesus is God"
and B says "Jesus is not God"
they cannot both be true. One statement is true and one statement is false.

It matters very much what you believe and there is truth. Along those lines, Jesus said, "I am the truth" so His claim needs to be dealt with. It's either true or it isn't, but it can't be both.

5/27/02 and still going strong! What a thread.

Does that mean Fish just proved that God doesn't exist?

Sorry to do that to y'all.

Why does everything have to be a LAW ?

I guess that makes me "Y" :confused:

I guess I shut this thread down ! :D

Why does everything have to be a LAW ?



It's not that everything is a law, but the point is that there are laws, even in a post-modern world. Refusing to believe in the Law of Gravity won't make it go away, or telling a cop that you don't believe in the law for stop signs won't save you a ticket. There are also laws of logic, otherwise we couldn't communicate. There is also a law of consequences "you reap what you sow" (some day, in some way, even if not immediately).

There are also absolutes. For one, there is a God. He's the one who created all of the laws in the first place.

I just created a Facebook group called "Christian Disc Golfers", so join if you're interested.

Lo?we,
What happened to that other thread you had

Lo?we,
What happened to that other thread you had



Do you mean the "Christians who play disc golf" (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=Players&amp;Number=136299&amp;fpar t=1&amp;PHPSESSID=cd02b34d46999f101326fe11d38df5dd) thread? If so, that's not really my thread.

throwing discs is how I should mad respect for the lord

i love you jesus

ignce your not praising him at church has made jesus cry, i feel you need a confession and a re-baptism. as your pastor i recomend this as soon as possible. i think i will praise the lord this weekend....

praise jah!

My question is... how could Earth be soo intricate in design so that it can sustain life as it does if it came from a big bang? Why are all the other planets unlivable? Evolution is natural to a point...it stops when people start thinking we humans evolved from a monkey. Think about it...a monkey. There is no way a "big bang" could create what we have here and then place the sun where it is along with the fact that it still shines. Science and logic can't explain this...go ahead and throw all your facts at me...its all bullcrap anyways. The sun would have burned out already if these facts are true. I'm not saying that God did all this, even though I believe this to be true, but how can you say all of these fine details could have been done otherwise? "big bang" haha, how stupid. teachers can't teach religion because of separation of church and state, so they have to explain it somehow. But also notice christians aren't science teachers.

very true,what surprises me more than anything is when someone that has a child doesn't believe in God.In my opinion you have to believe in 1 of 3 things -creationism,big bang,or evolutionism.

exactly, and how do you explain that little miracle that happens in the belly of a mother of any species? All the intricate details...its just so amazing in itself. Your right, but god is gracious and good to even the non-believers. Now thats forgiveness if I ever heard of it!!!

My question is... how could Earth be soo intricate in design so that it can sustain life as it does if it came from a big bang? Why are all the other planets unlivable? Evolution is natural to a point...it stops when people start thinking we humans evolved from a monkey. Think about it...a monkey. There is no way a "big bang" could create what we have here and then place the sun where it is along with the fact that it still shines. Science and logic can't explain this...go ahead and throw all your facts at me...its all bullcrap anyways. The sun would have burned out already if these facts are true. I'm not saying that God did all this, even though I believe this to be true, but how can you say all of these fine details could have been done otherwise? "big bang" haha, how stupid. teachers can't teach religion because of separation of church and state, so they have to explain it somehow. But also notice christians aren't science teachers.



You see, I'd argue it the other way--

The conditions for life as we know it would occur very rarely in the universe. The sun at the right distance and intensity; the moon of the right size and distance, the right chemical mix--- the odds of those conditions happening exactly right are slim beyond comprehesion.

So we really shouldn't be surprised that we are alone in the universe. We are the exception to the norm and no supernatural being is required to be involved. The right mix and time were all that was needed.

--Mike

Of course you would...because you don't understand how delicate these things are. It couldn't have sustained this balance this long could it? So what do you believe then... big bang or evolution? there is no way a big bang could have place the planets in orbit...they would still be moving away from the original blast right? According to doppler shifts observations this would be seen by scientists. And evolution...you are saying you are related to monkeys!! Why aren't humans changing over time? Yes, it may not be a long enough time...but then why aren't there other species of humans? Scientists just THINK we are evolved from them because it is the only logic they can cling to. And every human is different in some way, why aren't other animals we see? Maybe some are different, but not completley. This is what i mean about infinite detailing. A big bang creating orbit?...stupid! Evolution...just an explanation for nonbelievers to try to make logical sense of it...since that is all scientists are capable of thinking like.

We seem to agree that scientists and thinking people are trying to make logical sense.

I guess we disagree on how successful they are.

And BTW, don't tell me what I do or do not understand.

Thanks....--Mike

Agree to disagree then. But i'm just trying to help save you from the firey depths of hell.

Actually, I'm a committed follower of Jesus, I'm in the ministry, and I believe that God caused the Big Bang. To me, the Big Bang is one of the greatest arguments for the existence of God. Before the Big Bang there was nothing, so how did nothing cause all of the matter and energy in the universe to exist? Nothing can't create something, especially something as massive as all of the matter and energy in the universe. Nothing can't make something as stupendous as the Big Bang happen. The universe became so intricately ordered after the Big Bang because God caused it to be ordered. He is the designer and inventor of all scientific laws.

This universe and anything beyond would cease to exist if not for him. Science can't even prove there was a big bang. sure there is proof that our universe is moving away from us, but that doesn't explain the orbits the planets are in. How does one and only one star shine so bright that it can sustain life on ONLY one planet? and then have a bunch of planets orbit it. If you are in the ministry you surely know of Noahs ark... do you think a flood that large is possible again by natural means? Only katrina comes close, and thats not even close. The bang you are speaking of was when God said "let there be light". I'm not saying your wrong...you just have your own opinion or interpretation. Lets not be fighting each other...lets fight for God to be known around the world!

Don't fall into the typical trap. Saying you are a committed follower of Jesus, and then saying that you believe God caused the Big Bang is an oxymoron. One who believes in God, believes His word as it it is written. Even when using proper hermeneutics, it says nowhere in His word that GOD caused the Big Bang. However, I agree that by understanding the view points of modern science one can see how science is supported by Gods creation around us. But that does not mean that we as christians should embrace scientific theories as fact and that God was behind those theories. We as christians can accept Gods word and His power to create through faith. God didn't put in a position where we need to justify our faith through mans theory, he gave us His word.