I have always thought that when someone wants to be an am in any game, that means that you are playing for trophys and fun. So why in the PDGA do ams get plastic that most of them don't want anyway? I mean if you are good enough to finish high in the advanced class then you already know what you want to throw and your bag is set up, you really don't need a wolf or a birdie, if you know what I mean. If we did away with the am PAYOUT then we could add considerable money to the open class where it should go. I have raced motorcyles for years and when you race in a am class you race for trophys. I still have to pay an entry fee, but I don't care, I am doing it for fun not to make money. The pros race for money, that's why they are pros. This is one of the things that I have never understood about disc golf. With this logical change, we could grow the game a great deal over night!

Wow, original thinking....

Talk about counterproductivity....

Amateur Status means you cannot accept CASH, doesnt mean you play for only a trophy.

If you prefer sports that do that, go play them.

And besides, only LAME tournaments give out prize packages. (Some good tourneys still have LAME payout)

Pick your Payout, is the wave of the future, may the dinosaurs die out!!!

FLAME AWAY!

It is a fundamental argument within Disc Golf. This weekend a SuperTour in OK had no players pack, and for the $70 in entry the top half of the field was paid nicely, but for those that traveled that went for fun of playing, they had to purchase plastic to take home on top of the entry.....

Some places, like us in KC tend to give more to all the players in the form of player pack, lunches, etc....some places like to pay out more. It depends on who you talk with. I have heard both side and variants to them all. All I know is that when I travel to play, I know that I will probably not "cash" in adv, and that getting something in the form of a cool players pack, or at least some plastic with stamps that are not from home is cool, so I think of people in my light instead of what should I pay the top playing people.

Neither is right nor wrong, yet the PDGA is leaning more towards the pay everyone more the top less notion, so I like it.

I will say that each TD must make choices, and they are all tough, so one way is different, not right, though if you look through the threads in here, you will see differing viewpoints. I think that the ultimate thing that I have read being in here is that this is how disc golf events were started, with giving away tons of plastic to the winners, and that is what brought people in, so the theory is that it worked, replicate it.

Right or wrong, that�s how it is today, and the new guidelines help to change it, but it will only change when the perception of winning changes as an AM, or the entire populations of TD's get together and synch up how EVERY PAYOUT should be (not likely!)

I do agree though with your thoughts. But then that is why I have so many people in the room that dislike my stance on the topic. You play for the love of the game as an AM, anything else, you are creeping into the PRO caliber, and should move up.

It costs money to run big events, and you need to get it from somewhere. Many of the disc manufacturers used to give away plastic to events, we now have to buy them all�..

Two reasons:

The profit on the prizes ensures that the TD can cover other expenses, including added cash to the pro purse.

There is a perception that amateurs want to gamble for prizes.
----------------------

Let's face it, no one is playing advanced for $40 a pop and no payout. Shift all the am money to the pros and there will soon be nothing to shift.

As I have offered more tournaments where Ams can pay a reduced entry fee and just play for the trophies and side games, I've seen more and more ams warm to the concept.
--------------

By the way, paying ams with food is not part of the 2004 PDGA format. The cost of meals may not be counted as part of the amateur payout in 2004, so TDs might do a little less of it.

I guess the Thanksglowing will be the last one for me. All amateurs get $5 off their food order at the awards ceremony at Putters.

Somebody once posted a very good post about the economy of disc golf tournaments. Bottom line is that those Am entry fees are basically sales that generate revenue to pay for tourney expenses. Many mis-guided pros seem to see the Ams as an expense that takes away their payout dollars when in reality it is the Ams and their entry fee/sales that fund the tournaments and make the pro payouts as good as they are.

It is misguided to think that you can charge $50 to $75 for an Am entry fee and drop the am payout and still get the same turnout. Regardless of "what's right" or what it means to "be an am", that is not the way things are and dropping am payouts while keeping high am entry fees will go over like a lead balloon.

If you really are worried about the purity of the "amateur class", then low entry fee and no payout is the way to go. This does not help pro payouts one bit. But then again, do you really think the ams should have to pay for the pro payouts and get nothing in return? I don't.

If you want bigger pro payouts you need to get the pros out beating the pavement for sponsorship. Since it is in the pro's best interest to get sponsorship because it makes the payout bigger, the pro players should be motivated to go and get those sponsor dollars.

One question flying toilet, do u ever think before u type???
Please reread what u typed.
"I mean if you are good enough to finish high in the advanced class then you already know what you want to throw and your bag is set up, you really don't need a wolf or a birdie, if you know what I mean."
Apparently where u play Disc Golf, your discs never wear out and you never lose any discs and apparently no new discs ever come out.
The easiest way to try out a new type of disc is to get it for free. Exactly the case with the Beast, Viking and a TL. All of which I got my first one at a tourney as either a player's package or as a prize.
Yes, i do agree that it would be nicer if you got to pick what u won, but when I am out of town and need to deal with a 5 or 6 hour drive home, i don't really care what i get.
But shifting all of the AM money to the PROs is soo not the answer.

Ams should not subsidize the pros and ams should not have a financial incentive to remain in a lower division.

Financial incentives for disc golf (just like the rest of life) should reward those who demonstrate the most ability and are willing to take the most risks.

blah...blah...blah...It is all about selling discs,which turns into sponsorship money for the top pro's,which then try to sell more discs...get it...MJ

flying toilet: >So why in the PDGA do ams get plastic that most of them don't want anyway?

SPEAK FOR YOURSELF...maybe its just me, but really like getting plastic when i win

You're all wrong.

Yep. There are different philosophies about payouts. More importantly, there are varying preferences amongst players regarding payout and/or players packages.

One of the things I find bothersome about the disc golf community, is the tendency to ignore the facts of life while speaking in totalitarian terms.

There are MANY sports that offer prizes based on performance for amateurs. This includes children. This is a fact. You don't have to like it. You don't have to do it. But you are a fool if you say otherwise.

There are some of us who approach this subject without regard to personal preference. Well...there's me and...

I don't know...but there has to be someone else.

Another fact is this...

Amateur payouts can be good for an organizer...without subsidizing pros. I can't believe I had to say that. Why did I have to say it? Because everytime this subject rears it's ugly head...the most basic facts of life are purposefully ignored.

Again...an intelligent person, who is unbiased...would be inclined to say that things should be done that make the organizers and the players happy.

If an organizer finds that performance based payouts make the organizer sick to the stomach...then by all means...the organizer should do that which makes the organizer feel healthy.

The key is this...

The organizer should be careful not to make this his or hers crusade...unless they advertise and try their best to let everyone know that they are a crusader for a cause.

You will find that most organizers who are proud of their am payouts...shout it from the highest rooftop. They use it to entice players.

The bothersome thing about some of the organizers who crusade for less payout based on performance and more for all participants is...they RARELY ADVERTISE THIS FACT...MAKE EXCUSES WHY THEY CANT ADVERITISE THE FACT...and then they seem to enjoy bashing players who are disappointed with their payout system.

On top of that...these organizers seem to enjoy using these players as examples of greed, to enforce the arguments for their crusade.

And...there is reason to believe...that some of these organizers actually DO NOT give the amateurs ALL of their money back in these sponsor provided packages...and that some of the "profit" goes into the local scene.

I have no problem with ANYONE, or any group making some sort of profit from amateur tournaments. In fact, I think ALL organizers (including clubs and the like) SHOULD profit in some way, when throwing disc golf tournaments..AM and Pro alike.

But again, the bothersome thing is the ATTITUDE of some of these organizers who use the "We're doing it" trump card to squash any question of their payout.

None of this debate should have ANYTHING to do with "incentive or lack thereof to turn pro". The only reason anyone should turn pro in a sport is because they want to compete as a professional. I don't care what the reason may be. But trying to keep the value of prizes down for amateurs because there is no cash reward for professionals is ludicrous.

This sport made a serious mistake years ago. If you want to be proud of your sport, cultivate your amateur tournament scene. Make the top amateur division a place of stature and competition which can be looked on from the outside as a serious sport. Design your needed brackets of protection below this top level of competition.

FORGET about getting players to turn pro. It is the stupidest of all concepts for a sport that wants to take itself seriously.

A serious professional sport...is made serious by the financial awards which are available. These can never be provided through entry fees (Unless you are playing something like poker and the entry fees are $10,000 per person or the entry fees are provided by sponsors of pro players for huge amounts).

You might as well start trying to take yourselves seriously and let the pro ranks be determined by the financial opportunities. Sounds scary doesn't it? It would be the best thing that ever happened to this sport. Then and only then, could the amateur structure truly be what it should be.

Payouts? Players packages? You all miss the point. These aren't the holy grail. Different organizers and players prefer different things. Most of you are the products of a system which was warped years ago because of people trying to make a professional sport before the sport was amateur. Therefore, most of your arguments on this subject make little sense in the overall scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong. They make sense by themselves. There is validity in everyones preferences. But if we really want to move ahead, we would do well to get past personal preferences and examine things the way they really are...

Players packages only, trophy only, high end performance pased payout and different mixes of these ARE ALL VIABLE AMATEUR PAYOUTS in many successful amateur sports.

Facts brought to you by me.

That was an excellent troll, Mr. Toilet. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

This kind of relates to the "why do ams get prizes?" issue, certainly at a philosophical level.

I have gone to a few tournaments this year where the host club or TD was a seperate entity from the merch man. In fact I was the merch man at one of these events so I know what I'm talking about.

In that situation, would an Am lose his amateur status or the TD get a pile of official manure dumped on him if the merch man was buying back the prizes from the winning ams at willing buyer/willing seller prices? Clearly it violates the spirit of amateur competition for the TD to advertise this feature. Does the TD have any obligation to prevent it from happening?

"There are MANY sports that offer prizes based on performance for amateurs. This includes children. This is a fact. You don't have to like it. You don't have to do it."

Randy, would you back this up, please? This issue goes back a long way -- when I was Commissioner, we were never able to find a sport that pays ams the way ours does. If you know of a sport that does, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks in advance. (Hey, that's not just a pleasantry, it's a payout philospohy!)

Must have been a DGWN issue I read where a disc golfer in Sweden was making some comparisons to tournaments here and there. If memory serves, their tournaments were a lot less expensive for registration fees, and only small trophies or plaques were awarded but the awards were highly honored and players spent more time congratulating each other.

how could an am get a better payout for a 3rd pl finish in a b-tier tourney than a 2nd place finish in a a-tier**cough,columbus,cough** tourney...with the same amount of players in both and the atier costing 20 more dollars than the btier?????

> Randy, would you back this up, please? This issue goes back a long way -- when I was Commissioner, we were never able to find a sport that pays ams the way ours does. If you know of a sport that does, I would love to hear about it.

John, contrary to what is commonly believed, the sport in question is ... (get ready to have your socks blown off) ...

<FONT SIZE=" 2"><FONT COLOR="ff0000">BALL GOLF!!!!</FONT></FONT>

Rule 3.2 of the USGA's "Rules of Amateur Status" (http://www.usga.org/rules/am_status/) states:

3-2. Prize Limits

An amateur golfer must not:

a. Accept a prize (including all prizes received in any one tournament or exhibition for any event, or series of events, in which golf skill is a factor) of a retail value greater than $500 (except for symbolic prizes);

Exception: Hole-In-One Prizes

The limit prescribed in Rule 3-2a applies to a prize for a hole-in-one. However, such a prize may be accepted in addition to any other prize won in the same competition.

b. Accept a prize of money or the equivalent of money;

c. Convert a prize into money;

d. Accept expenses in any amount to a golf competition (except as provided in Rule 4); or

e. Because of golf skill or reputation, accept in connection with any golfing event:

(i) money, or

(ii) anything else, other than merchandise of nominal value provided to all players.

-----

This is interpreted in the The Decisions on the Rules of Amateur Status (http://www.usga.org/rules/am_status/decisions/r3.html) as follows:

3-2/3 Examples of Permissible Prizes Under Rule 3-2

Below are examples of prizes which an amateur may accept under Rule 3-2:

1. Merchandise of retail value not more than $500.

2. Gift certificates of not more than $500 for the future purchase of merchandise.

3. Driving range use up to $500.

4. Use of golf cart up to $500, provided it is not used in a competition.

5. Green fees at a public course up to $500, provided they are not used in a competition. (Revised)

----

So much for ball golf as the last bastion of the "amateur ideal" and "true amateurism."

Here we go again.....

I'll let everyone go back and forth on this (again). All I ask is please do NOT make the assumption that in a scenario where there were no am prizes that entries would not be the same as they are now. I've read the argument too many times, "I'm not paying $70 to enter a tournament just to play for trophies!!!" No kidding. I'm pretty sure everyone who supports low/no payout systems also favors lower entry fees.

Some who support low payout favor large player packs so they can still get their mark up. The PDGA is talking about low/no payout at Am Worlds 2005, but they aren't talking about $10 entry fees.

Where do you get all this 'inside information'? (dont tell me 'inside')

I understand the mechanics of tournament finances. If we had low Am entry fees, and only modest player packs, then all added cash simply has to come from fund-raising. A lot of a tournament's income is derived by paying out amateurs at "retail" prices even though the prizes were purchased at "wholesale" for the most part.

If you drop the Am entry fees, and have a correspondingly lower payout, then the tournament will not be generating nearly as much income. Big player packs are a way of ensuring that some income is still derived. It is also a way of distributing the income equitably across all divisions including the Pros. Tournaments that don't run with player packages are essentially causing the Ams to be the sole source of this kind of tournament income. Because all of it will be derived from the profits made on the Am payouts. If a tournament is providing player packs, then they should be providing it to the Pro divisions as well as the Ams.

The larger the Am entry fees, the larger the total payout stack has to be...therefore the more money that tournament makes. When you have to provide a payout of $5,000 for the Am payout, you've just generated $2,000 worth of profit for the tournament. I don't know about the rest of you folks, but that is a substantial amount of change! I would hate to lose that kind of automatic tournament income for our gig.

i wonder it the PDGA will pay someone a 1000$ to be a "scorekeeper" again this AM Worlds...

there is TOO MUCH inside info that goes on in this dot.org as it is...

speaking as one of these ams I like getting plastic as a reward for doing well. I've only played in 2 tournaments and a few minis, but the few times I've made teh payout it's allowed me to try things I wouldn't have otherwise tried and improved my game because of it.

I do agree with whoever said pick your plastic is the way to go. I would prefer a smaller payout and get to pick what I want than a larger one where I have no say in the matter.

If things go to a system where the entry fees are lower and the payout is only a trophy I have no problem with that...as long as people don't mind someone with a really low rating playing in the highest am class. If I'm only playing for a trophy that I'm not likely to get anyway, I might as well play the tougher course with the better players so that I can improve my own game.

I don't remember seeing that on the expense sheet that I turned in, I am confused by this comment there VIc.....

My first tournament I had to join the PDGA. I mysteriously became a professional by paying an annual fee. I won a little money, very little over the years. Now there are divisions under the Professional PDGA jurisdiction including amateur competition, which doesn't make sense to me.

As hard to coordinate volunteer bases for various aspects of competition, I see a valuable overlap/oversight with one organization versus creating a separate ADGA, Amatuer Disc Golf Association.

That withstanding, I favor reducing costs/fees to compete in amatuer events and funding prizes/trophies via sponsorship added from local establishments. Bragging rights and your name on the local billboard, website, newspaper, or Disc Golf World News publication and a trophy/ribbon is what it should be about.

Not knowing the behind the scenes of what it takes to run a tourney, I have a few ?'s.I am an Advanced player.The plastic that is given out to Am level, where does it come from?What % is donated by sponsors.?What out of pocket cost does the TD incur in relation to "prizes" or "discs"? Do the entry fees for all Amatuers at a Tourney get put into one pool and then get divide amongst all divisions?I guess what I'm trying to find out is what the break down of our entry fees and how is it applied to the tourney itself.
I personally like big payouts.If you have 30 players @ 40$ a pop entrance fee, thats1200$. None of that should go to the Pros.A 1000$ should go towards the Advanced payout unless there's some reason why it should be less.Maybe a cost issue, but I'm not sure what that would be..To my knowledge not all events are run for profit but for people to say" that was a great tourney ,I'll be back next year "and this promotes the sport.Skimping on payouts will only hurt.Why should a Divisions entry fee be used anywhere else but in its own division? Other than to take a % for running the event.

Speaking as an Am...

There are essentially three attitudes with which I enter disc golf events. These are the attitudes and how I feel about entry fees versus getting something out of it.

1. I'm there for the challenge. This includes such events as the Zebulon Cha-Ching and Zing and the Great Eight. At these events I'm still hoping to take home a prize, but I'm not counting on it...I'm there to have fun and to challenge myself. I got a bigger kick out of being in the leader group for a round out at Zebulon than I get out of most of the times I've taken home plastic. At events like this, I expect to pay a little more because they're a little bigger and more organization goes into them. However, once the entry fee is more than I feel like paying for a challenging tournament in which winning any prizes would be a pleasant and unexpected surprise, I won't enter unless I expect a player package, because having something to take home will help keep me from feeling like I'm putting too much money into a hobby when I could play at least three or four minis for the same amount with a better chance of getting something out of it (Yes, I'm selfish.) Bottom line, though, is that at these kinds of events, I'm happy with either a player package, or a wide spread of prizes and payout, or a low entry fee and less chance of taking something home...but I would not pay a hefty entry fee without feeling like I had at least a good chance of getting something back.

2. I'm playing mostly for the chance at plastic. This is the way I approach probably about a third of the minis I enter; I'm there for a challenge and to have fun, but I'm also mostly trying to get something back out of it. If I'm mostly there to try to win plastic, obviously I'm not going to be too happy with a minimal payout or just trophies. ;-) I tend to look for the lowest entry fees, widest and highest payout, and least challenging competition, so I have the best chance of getting the most out of my entry fee. I suppose this isn't exactly the most sportsmanlike reason to play, but it helps me keep feeling like there's a real point to playing tournaments instead of just casual rounds with my friends.

3. I'm playing to have fun and hang out. This is actually a pretty similar attitude to #1, except that I'm willing to pay less, have higher hopes of taking home plastic, but typically care less about my own performance. This is the way I approach about 2/3 of the minis I enter, which is most of the events I play in at all, and I essentially treat it like going out to play a casual round with the guys, except with a little more challenge and a little more at stake to make it interesting, and some different people to meet and maybe learn a few tips from.

I guess those attitudes are listed from least to most frequent.

At any rate, I don't really have much of an opinion on whether payout or trophies for ams would be better for the sport, but for those of you who are discussing the impact on turnout...yeah, I'm willing to pay more the more likely I think it is that I'll get something from it. For example, although part of the reason for this is actually the greater challenge, I'll generally be willing to pay an amount for a larger event with a player package that exceeds the amount I would pay for a smaller event with no player package by more than the worth of the player package.

Did that sentence make sense? Oh well. Anyhow, I hope at least one person doesn't wish I hadn't bothered to post. It'd be a bummer if everyone thought this was just a waste of space.

Merchandise payouts are usually quite simple.

First, a TD or related vendor purchases a bunch of discs, bags, etc at wholesale price.

Then the TD will dole out the merchandise in players' packages and in the payout at retail price. So if the entry fees total $1200 like your example, then the retail price of all the prizes will total $1200.

So if the TD/vendor bought the merch for a grand total of $800, that means a "profit" of $400. That profit often goes to a number of things, including the host club (for operations and event expenses), course maintainance funds, the TD/vendor's pocket, or into the pro purses as added cash.

A mis-understanding I see a lot of is that "donations" from sponsoring companies are a free hand-out. Most of the time, merchandise sent by a manufacturer as a "sponsorship" is actually sold to the TD at a deep discount. The "sponsorship" comes from the profit made by the sale of the merchandise, either through the am payouts or through actual sales. A perfect example of this "sponsorship" system can be found in the Candy Fundraiser discs.

I think one of the biggest discrepencies with this system is the definition of "retail price". Some TDs and vendors don't look for more than a buck or two per disc as profit, if at all, while others will go with the manufacturers suggested retail price and nearly double the wholesale price. Most fall somewhere in the middle. Without a standard, the generousity of "payouts" becomes largely subjective and cause as many complaints as anything.

Personally, I think low entry fees with modest players' packages and trophy/medal/ribbon "payouts" are the best way to go for am events. But I don't see a problem with $20-40 entries, good-sized players' packages, and modest, flat payouts either.

--Josh

Sonny, every tournament is different. Sometimes the TD is volunteering for a club that owns the merch. Sometimes the TD owns the merch. Sometimes the merch man is independent of the TD and they have an agreement.

Whatever deal a TD makes with sponsors is going to vary from tournament to tournament too. Some tournaments have heavy sponsorship and some have little or none.

Any TD or merch man who runs a lot of tournaments and is pricing his stuff at $8-$15 is probably getting it for 50-60% of that price.

There is a fixed fee for sanctioning a tournament with the PDGA which, in 2003, started at $30 for a C-tier, plus the TD pays the PDGA $2 per player. These numbers are changing in 2004, generally going up. If the TD buys insurance that is $50. Then there is the cost of trophies, and miscellaneous other expenses.

On a $40 entry fee, if the TD pays his amateurs 100% at retail and watches his expenses, he can come out ahead $10 - $15 per amateur. Where that money goes varies too. Some clubs pay for the tees signs, benches and replacement baskets you see on their courses. Some don't. At some tournaments some of that money becomes added cash to the pros. At some tournaments that money pays for food. Sometimes there are facility rental or reservation fees. Sometimes the money made on one tournament is poured into another tournament later on.

I have yet to meet the TD who made his first million running tournaments. I usually break even on the tournament process but make a little money selling leftover plastic to non-tournament players at courses I play. I try to be generous with the players.

As one example of why clubs (TDs) have to pay out less than they take in - for the Ann Arbor Club's recent tournament I spent more than $200 on outdoor power cords, connectors, and power strips. The club will reimburse me, and the money will come from the "profits" from the Mystic Mills tournament.

The cords and strips will get used again next year. Probably they will, instead of being lost as has been usual, because the club is also renting a storage space to put such things. That monthly rental fee comes from tournament entry fees, too.

As does the rental for the big tent that protected us from the environment, and the extra money we paid the park rangers to stay around and keep the park open later than usual, and the money we paid for the cold cuts and other foods that supplemented the potluck foods brought in by club members, and the funds which bought the pumpkins that we carved into jack-o-lanterns, and the dollars which paid for the sweatshirts and the tee-shirts we had available in merchandise.

The list goes on and on, folks. There's a famous phrase/acronym for it: TANSTAAFL.

Haven't notice any of the disc golf manufacturers (baskets, discs, bags, etc....) complaining about am payouts. They will not bite the hand that feeds them. So this type of payout for the ams is a win - win situation for the manufacturers, the ams, the pros, and the TDs

I must agree, Brett is correct. Everyone benefits with the current structure, however, I disagree with the concept.

It's an easy way to promote the game flooding the "market" with "golf" discs from paid manufacturers (wholesalers). They get complimentary advertising with disc's as prizes, with full payment of their product in advance.

Lately, the only other beneficiaries are great players sponsored by these companies. Why wouldn't manufacturer's instill more cash into the game/competition structure when it's in their interest for more people to see and pickup their product of promotion?

National sponsorship for the tour should easily begin with a major manufacture of products in this sport. Once one commits, more are bound to follow. Why would Discraft host the "Memorial" in Arizona and Innova host the USDGC?

Is it more beneficial to "sponsor" free agent players versus the total field of play? This is the wrong comment board and I'm straying from the discussion, sorry about that, I'm just confused about the National Tour sponsorship from last year, yet am happy thus far with the recent revisions.

thanks for taking the time to respond Josh and Bruce. There is obviously lots of things going on behind the scenes.

Like you even know what "behind the scenes" means!

Sonnysouthpaw! Give it up, learn to throw with the RIGHT hand, and maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't lose any discs.....

Like you even know what "behind the scenes" means!

Sonnysouthpaw! Give it up, learn to throw with the RIGHT hand, and maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't lose any discs.....




ROFL...... :D

[*****] lefites....

That would be [bleeping] lefties! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Double Ditto.....

:D

BENDER ESPECIALLY!!!!

:o

:eek:

Ams should not subsidize the pros and ams should not have a financial incentive to remain in a lower division.

Financial incentives for disc golf (just like the rest of life) should reward those who demonstrate the most ability and are willing to take the most risks.

Ams should not subsidize the pros and ams should not have a financial incentive to remain in a lower division.

Financial incentives for disc golf (just like the rest of life) should reward those who demonstrate the most ability and are willing to take the most risks.

Ams should not subsidize the pros

But they do. If you are an am you can deal with it or run tournaments where you don't do that. Those are your options. You can sit on your behind waiting for the world to change, but it isn't gonna change unless you do something.

Who really subsidizes Pros and Ams are the tournament directors and their staff.

As I have noted before, if you take the average Ann Arbor club tournament and just paid the staff minimum wage, you'd likely have to more than double the entry fees.

Basically, for most tournaments that are run by volunteers, the time (and money, lots of costs go un-reimbursed) put into the event by volunteers exceeds the total value of all of the entry fees and sponsorships.

If the volunteers and TDs want to give Ams prizes, I'd say that they have earned the right to their opinion and to their action.

That's true too. Without a bunch of dedicated people willing to work for about $1 per hour, the IOSeries would not happen. If someone were to pass a law prohibiting child slavery, we'd be up a creek! :D

The following quote is from upthread by Randy Wimm on November 3, 2003. (Note: the post could even be older than 11/03/03 as this thread could have been transfered over from the old message board. Either that or this thread just happened to start the very same day the PDGA switched to the UBB format.)


None of this debate should have ANYTHING to do with "incentive or lack thereof to turn pro". The only reason anyone should turn pro in a sport is because they want to compete as a professional. I don't care what the reason may be. But trying to keep the value of prizes down for amateurs because there is no cash reward for professionals is ludicrous.



Again for emphasis:
trying to keep the value of prizes down for amateurs because there is no cash reward for professionals is ludicrous.




Cheers to you Mr. Wimm!!! (Wish you were here.) Over three years later we are still having the same debate only now the solutions are a bit different.

I think most ams are completely fine with it as long as the player packs and payout are in the neighborhood of what the put into their division. But really that shouldn't be a problem at all with the price TDs pay for prizes and being able to list it as MSRP. Anything above that can go into the pro purse as far as I am concerned.

But really that shouldn't be a problem at all with the price TDs pay for prizes and being able to list it as MSRP. Anything above that can go into the pro purse as far as I am concerned.



Anything above that often goes to course rental fees and other expenses. After that there may not be much left, and I'd move the TDs and staff in front of the line ahead of the Pros in regards to who gets it.

But really that shouldn't be a problem at all with the price TDs pay for prizes and being able to list it as MSRP. Anything above that can go into the pro purse as far as I am concerned.




Anything above that often goes to course rental fees and other expenses. After that there may not be much left, and I'd move the TDs and staff in front of the line ahead of the Pros in regards to who gets it.



The pros are going to have to branch off from the pdga and form their own tour. I am sorry but they will never get the support they desire with the current structure. The PGA had this occur in the late 60's... There needs to be a pro tour run by pros for pros that attracts the attention of big sponsors and helps to provide more of a livelihood. For current players.

But really that shouldn't be a problem at all with the price TDs pay for prizes and being able to list it as MSRP. Anything above that can go into the pro purse as far as I am concerned.




Anything above that often goes to course rental fees and other expenses. After that there may not be much left, and I'd move the TDs and staff in front of the line ahead of the Pros in regards to who gets it.



The pros are going to have to branch off from the pdga and form their own tour. I am sorry but they will never get the support they desire with the current structure. The PGA had this occur in the late 60's... There needs to be a pro tour run by pros for pros that attracts the attention of big sponsors and helps to provide more of a livelihood. For current players.



If it were that easy to get big sponsers we would have them, what you don't think the PDGA has tried to get big sponsors. The problem is disc golf is still a relatively unknown and unappreciated sport. Most people when I tell them about disc golf have no idea what it even is. And I live and work 30 minutes from a relative hot spot with 2 hall of famers and one of the best female open players and the largest DG tourney (by numbers) in the country all calling Bowling Green home I cant imagine in more remote areas with one course in a hundred mile radius. The thing to do now is to get people playing and I try at every chance I get and have succeeded with about half a dozen people in my year playing and constantly trying to get more. Sponsers are not going to sink money into anything unless they see the benefit in doing so. So if you want big money in the pros get people playing, get them into a tourney when you think they would be comfortable and hopefully this works. But breaking off and starting your own tourney won't work. IMHO.

The pros are going to have to branch off from the pdga and form their own tour. I am sorry but they will never get the support they desire with the current structure. The PGA had this occur in the late 60's... There needs to be a pro tour run by pros for pros that attracts the attention of big sponsors and helps to provide more of a livelihood. For current players.


You know, I have decided that I could not agree with that statement more. :)

The pros formed the PGA [and its three levels of pro competition] so that they would have negotiating power with the sponsors and promoters, and so that they could limit how many ways the pie would be sliced. It is basically a players' union where you move up strictly on merit, and get demoted to a lower level if you aren't making it. The PGA reflects everything that is good about America! :D

I usually don't post in the 'political' threads around here, but this is too much.

I think many of you have forgotten what it was like to be a beginner in disc golf. I have only been playing for a little over a year and am still in AM3 in tournaments. The idea that as a raw beginner I could win plastic was one of the biggest draws for me to play a tournament; and also to practice in hopes of getting better to win even more plastic. Now, with the introduction of funny money, I get to pick exactly what discs I want; so there's no risk of getting 'stuck' with a Birdie or Wolf.

Also, not every tournament is an A/B tier or even a sanctioned event. Some smaller tournaments that I've played in didn't even have players packs...and now you want to take away the prize plastic too?!

A trophy is nice, and looks good on the wall, but prize plastic is a trophy you can use to practice and get better.

Keep in mind that not everyone on this site, in the PDGA, or that plays disc golf in general is gunning to turn Pro and join the Tour next year. Some of us may never even play Open in a local tournament. Some of us enjoy playing as much golf as life allows, and are very happy competing for plastic.

Maybe some of us should start speaking up a bit more. :mad:


sleepy

The pros are going to have to branch off from the pdga and form their own tour. I am sorry but they will never get the support they desire with the current structure. The PGA had this occur in the late 60's... There needs to be a pro tour run by pros for pros that attracts the attention of big sponsors and helps to provide more of a livelihood. For current players.


You know, I have decided that I could not agree with that statement more. :)




But why would the Pros branch away from the PDGA? How about forming an Amateur association?

We're not going anywhere....Whoohaha........Whoohaha. Best I could do of an evil laugh online. Lets be honest at this point, Ams and Pros need each other. If you think membership is high now take out the Ams membership and divide that cost up among pros. Then take out the amount from the pros not willing to spend $400-500 to join and then you will have to pay $1000!!!! The ams need the organizational strength and the association with pros. The pros need the money the ams put into the organization. Someday if the sport grows enough there will probably have to be a mutually beneficial and hopefully still working together split. But as of now there are not enough pros or ams to have two organizations.

You were looking at my post as an instant gratification type situation when it was definately not.

Whatever organization the Pro players build will not be NON PROFIT... There is no reason these two organizations can not work together. But honestly, this is the direction that the sport has to move. With a support structure in place Pro Players can split and form their own tournament series (for example maybe 12 big tournaments a year) wither fewer TD's needed to run tournaments.

I do not have all the answers... I can paint a picture but it may not be what would work best in that situation. With fewer tournaments there will be more focus on sponsors, the purses will be larger because of the smaller number of tournaments. The created organization will work with every TD to raise sponsorship monies...

We have to look to the future, right now for one of the fastest growing sports, are membership growth is laughable.

I think the general idea of splitting up the Pros and Am organizations is sound, but how to do it is another story. You will have to get together some of the top players that are interested.

You also have to build a touring pro player base large enough to facilitate a good sized field with 1 division (well 2 if you include women) Players that will be at a majority of these tournaments. They also have to be proactive in getting people out to spectate these events... There is so much that would have to go into it and this is just kind of throwing ideas out there.

The ams need the organizational strength and the association with pros.



Do they? They are the much bigger group, and fund a substantial amount of the pro action, and the PDGA activities. I think the "Ams" could do fine without both the PDGA and the "Pros" and the PDGA and TD's know this which is why they pawn discounted plastic of on Am's as prizes instead of paying them out in full ca$h value like the "Pros." Have you ever wondered why when the option of paying out Am's either in plastic or 50% ca$h value why the ca$h payout can only be 50%? Hmmmm... PDGA apologist Chuck Kennedy has said that they goal of the Association is to create a legitimate touring class of "pros" who can make a living playing disc golf. They need "Am" money to do this. They don't want to offer greatly reduced entry fees for trophy only "Am" competition as that cuts into their ca$h flow to prop up the empty "Pro" concept.

Have you ever wondered why when the option of paying out Am's either in plastic or 50% ca$h value why the ca$h payout can only be 50%? Hmmmm... PDGA apologist Chuck Kennedy has said that they goal of the Association is to create a legitimate touring class of "pros" who can make a living playing disc golf. They need "Am" money to do this. They don't want to offer greatly reduced entry fees for trophy only "Am" competition as that cuts into their ca$h flow to prop up the empty "Pro" concept.




The Am prize structure was not started by the PDGA. It was started by a TD in the early 90s. TDs adopted the higher prize Am structure because players liked it and it helped fund some added cash for pro divisions.

The financial survival for the PDGA does not depend on any particular competition format because the player fees come in regardless whether the format is barebones trophy only or big fat prize payouts. The PDGA survival depends on supporting formats the 500 or so TDs want to run. And they want to run them because the TDs customers - the players - want to enter those events. Anything the PDGA does to restrict the flexibility for TDs to offer formats their players wish to play, hurts the PDGA financially.

Pro 2 died for several reasons with one key reason being the financial structure wasn't right FOR TDs. With pros in Pro 2 getting 100% cash and Ams getting merch, payout calculations were disrupted. Pros getting 50% cash conversion from merch value in the proposed future model, solves that TD issue and makes the choice neutral from a TDs standpoint. Note: the PDGA only cares that the TDs are happy with this policy since the PDGA doesn't make any more or less from the TDs with this proposal. Happy TDs mean more events from successful TDs.

As far as the touring pro orientation for the PDGA, that came from membership surveys that the PDGA should focus on developing sponsorship and marketing to support pros. That has nothing to do with whether Ams get big prizes or play for trophies. No one believes touring pros could be supported strictly from retail/wholesale conversion from Am play. That's chump change relative to the kind of dollars that sponsorship provides in other sports that support touring pros. The long term financial support of touring pro players will have nothing to do with whether Ams play for prizes or just trophies.

You still haven't answered where all of this big sponsor money will come from. Yeah if you can get it then the pros would be able to do this. But the problem is that the biggest sponsors are still inside disc golf from Innova and Discraft. Without the Fundraising discs that they sell I wonder how much less the top 10 or so would make. So do you think that outside sponsors are going to give you a couple hundred thousand dollars just because they are nice guys, it aint going to happen. Businesses only give money as an investment. Watch TV, during the daytime hours they advertise things toward women and elderly, during sports men, on cartoons kids and so on. Companies have to see an opportunity to get new customers and they will only give money to the sport if people are watching. I only have the 2003 & 2004 worlds videos but the gallery there which i believe is free to watch is nothing compared to even a small PGA event. The only way to get significant money from outside sponsors is the continued growth, when there are enough people playing and watching then the sponsors will come.

But why would the Pros branch away from the PDGA? How about forming an Amateur association?



Because it's mostly the Pros who are complaining about the current AM payout structure..TDs, the PDGA, manufacturers, and AMs are content with the current setup. It's the Pros who want the added cash to come from somewhere and want AMs to be enticed to move up to Pro, not basking in stacks of plastic they can win at any given tournament..

TDs, the PDGA, manufacturers, and AMs are content with the current setup.



It all comes down to the TDs. If people REALLY want change, then they need to start putting together their own tournaments in the format that they want.

The long term financial support of touring pro players will have nothing to do with whether Ams play for prizes or just trophies.

The ams need the organizational strength and the association with pros.



Do they? They are the much bigger group, and fund a substantial amount of the pro action, and the PDGA activities. I think the "Ams" could do fine without both the PDGA and the "Pros" and the PDGA and TD's know this which is why they pawn discounted plastic of on Am's as prizes instead of paying them out in full ca$h value like the "Pros." Have you ever wondered why when the option of paying out Am's either in plastic or 50% ca$h value why the ca$h payout can only be 50%? Hmmmm... PDGA apologist Chuck Kennedy has said that they goal of the Association is to create a legitimate touring class of "pros" who can make a living playing disc golf. They need "Am" money to do this. They don't want to offer greatly reduced entry fees for trophy only "Am" competition as that cuts into their ca$h flow to prop up the empty "Pro" concept.



This is true, and given this, why does the PDGA focus so much on the Pro? We know in part that the membership voted for them to focus on the Pro. Wouldn't it be nice to readdress this issue in a new survey. Where should the PDGA put the most focus?

focus on pro??? You mean like higher renewal fees. It that what focus means, or is it the great deals you get with tourney prices, or the fact that you have to beat better players to earn money. Focus ain't all it's cracked up to be.

I don't think overall the PDGA focuses too much on the pro in total dollars. But they spend more money per pro which mostly justifies the difference in member fees. Things like support for the EDGE program are more Am oriented. In addition, more time and effort is put toward getting scoring and course layouts correct for all of the Am divisions in order to calculate ratings properly. At this point, most of the Board is made up of amateur players and anyone looking closely would see the gradual shift in focus from say 3 years ago.

In my opinion the EDGE thing is AWESOME .
It is a way to show " up and commers " in the AM ranks that there is MORE then ONE way to get a disc to do what you need it to do .

TDs, the PDGA, manufacturers, and AMs are content with the current setup.



It all comes down to the TDs. If people REALLY want change, then they need to start putting together their own tournaments in the format that they want.



We're (http://marylandnomads.com/index.php?topic=62.0) doing that.

Great! Then continue it. :cool:

Every thread, here no matter if the title is "Orange Discs are Better Than Blue Discs" eventually degenerates to one of the following topics:

1. AMs are paid too much in plastic.
2. Pros want more money.
3. The current divisions as are causing _________ (fill in the blank).

If people don't like the events in their area. Change it! It is not the job of the PDGA to make the events that you want to play in. :)

You still haven't answered where all of this big sponsor money will come from. Yeah if you can get it then the pros would be able to do this. But the problem is that the biggest sponsors are still inside disc golf from Innova and Discraft. Without the Fundraising discs that they sell I wonder how much less the top 10 or so would make. So do you think that outside sponsors are going to give you a couple hundred thousand dollars just because they are nice guys, it aint going to happen. Businesses only give money as an investment. Watch TV, during the daytime hours they advertise things toward women and elderly, during sports men, on cartoons kids and so on. Companies have to see an opportunity to get new customers and they will only give money to the sport if people are watching. I only have the 2003 &amp; 2004 worlds videos but the gallery there which i believe is free to watch is nothing compared to even a small PGA event. The only way to get significant money from outside sponsors is the continued growth, when there are enough people playing and watching then the sponsors will come.



I am sorry but you are still looking at this idea as failing because it does not provide instant success. IT IS NOT MEANT TO PROVIDE INSTANT SUCCESS. It also does not say that the PDGA would stop having Pro divisions. The two organzations can work together. You would have touring pro's paying dues to the Disc Golf Players Association (theoretical name of this seperate org) so that is one source of income. You have an organization that goes to the local areas of this new pro tour to get sponsorship dollars which will go to 1 division. This can only help a pro players efforts to make a living in this sport. Players need more choices as well, not just the PDGA... I never said I had any answers so I don't feel the need to come up with all the answers either. You don't like the idea? Oh well, open your mind a little. Look back at the PGA and see how that sport developed and the road bumps along the way. It helps a lot when you have a for-profit organization that has 1 main objective and that is to grow this sport professionally meaning more players that can make a living and expose the world to this sport. Don't get me wrong, this would be a MAJOR undertaking but it would be nothing but beneficial to the growth, especially if you have the top touring players on board for this.

We are probably in disc golf where the PGA was in the 1940's, where few people started to make a living playing the game. Where 20 -30 years later the real money rolled in with TV deals and such. I could argue that Disc Golf will not take the same 20-30 years but probably half that. But look at how the PGA and PGA Tour are two seperate entities but they work together. You can draw a lot on the PGA's history, it doesn't always translate 1 for 1 but it can only help :)

The pros need to come together and stop putting the blame on amateurs. I may think that they get paid out too much or there needs to be more incentive to move up but it won't matter in the long run when it comes to playing Pro in this sport.

I didn't say anything about TV either, disc golf will not be on TV for a long time. The market isn't there at this juncture. If you look at discgolfreview.com there was a thread in General about disc golf on tv and I went throught the history of Paintball since I used to be involved in the sport professionally in the mid to late 90's into about 2001...

Here is a quote about PGA when they split :


"In 1968 the top touring pros, unhappy with several PGA policies, split off to form their own organization. Playing on the tournament circuit had emerged as a livelihood only in the late 1940s, when a year-round match schedule was first achieved. By the 1960s, though, income from television contracts was a growing source of the PGA's revenue, and touring golfers wanted a piece of this pie in the form of larger purses. The PGA, however, voted to add the money to the organization's general fund, which incensed its top golfers.

The final straw came when the PGA vetoed plans for a new tournament sponsored by Frank Sinatra, which was scheduled to be held within two weeks of the long-running Bob Hope Desert Classic. Both were planned for courses in the same part of California, and the PGA felt the region would not support two tournaments back to back. Chafing at PGA rulings that affected their livelihoods, most of the top touring PGA players, including Nicklaus and Palmer, formed a breakaway organization--the Association of Professional Golfers. After a partial reconciliation was later reached, the group was reconstituted as the Tournament Players Division, which would come to be an autonomous body run by a 10-member policy board. It later became known simply as the PGA Tour, Inc.�

What else may I take from this?

You can see the PGA not allowing another tournament in the same region to the PDGA allowing too many tournaments in the same region. So maybe the PDGA has something right but maybe there still are too many tournaments in the same region. With all the tournaments in a region, resources per tournament are run so thin. These resources could get together and form some larger, better tournaments, bringing the number of events in a region down but making the fewer events that much better and more attractive.



Touring golfers right now want a bigger piece of pie that isn�t there yet. I think the way the PDGA is run it�s not going to be there for a while. Pro divisions need to be on separate days/weekends at the very least. Start building spectators for the sport through the current amateur base. Offer free admission with PDGA membership card; charge a very small 1-5 dollar donation to be a spectator. PDGA touring pros should see right now that the PDGA is hindering their growth, their potential livelihoods and maybe should take that step that PGA players took at the time and form the Association of Professional Disc Golfers.



You can also see that the PGA Tour and the PGA are two separate entities and this kind of touches on what I was saying about the pros branching off to start their own National Tour� The PDGA should branch off to a separate entity to run the PDGA Tour which main goal is to highlight the top level of our game with a week full of hype and marketing, getting the local population knowledgeable about the game and finding any way to get people out to the courses to become spectators. The only issue with spectators is the fact that now you have to have the spectator in mind when you chose the courses to use for these National Tour highlight events. Preferably a high par 60+ on relatively accessible courses would work out the best.


Just some thoughts... agree or disagree, go for it... Do I care if I change your mind, absolutely not...

Everyone has their own opinion or vision, no two will think exactly the same but most can find common ground if they are willing to open their mind.

BTW, sorry for some of the redundancy... I had copied a some of this from an email exchange I had with a friend of mine.

Here is a quote about PGA when they split :

"In 1968 the top touring pros, unhappy with several PGA policies, split off to form their own organization. Playing on the tournament circuit had emerged as a livelihood only in the late 1940s, when a year-round match schedule was first achieved. By the 1960s, though, income from television contracts was a growing source of the PGA's revenue, and touring golfers wanted a piece of this pie in the form of larger purses. The PGA, however, voted to add the money to the organization's general fund, which incensed its top golfers.


You are a TV contract and a hell of a lot of sponsors away from being in the same position as ball golf was in the 60s.

What did I just say? Did you even read my post?

I said that disc golf is where the PGA was in the 40's as far as people making any money doing it is concerned....

Like I said maybe 15 years maybe as much as 30 years, we don't know yet. You can take the dollars involved and scale them down to PDGA size :) and then you still have a similar situation however :)

I thought you said that the pros needed to split off into their own association like the ball golfers did in 1968? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Maybe that was someone else.

My point being that there is no pie to be mad about not getting a bigger piece of. It's "phantasy pie".

I think many of you have forgotten what it was like to be a beginner in disc golf. I have only been playing for a little over a year and am still in AM3 in tournaments. The idea that as a raw beginner I could win plastic was one of the biggest draws for me to play a tournament; and also to practice in hopes of getting better to win even more plastic. Now, with the introduction of funny money, I get to pick exactly what discs I want; so there's no risk of getting 'stuck' with a Birdie or Wolf.

Also, not every tournament is an A/B tier or even a sanctioned event. Some smaller tournaments that I've played in didn't even have players packs...and now you want to take away the prize plastic too?!

A trophy is nice, and looks good on the wall, but prize plastic is a trophy you can use to practice and get better.

Keep in mind that not everyone on this site, in the PDGA, or that plays disc golf in general is gunning to turn Pro and join the Tour next year. Some of us may never even play Open in a local tournament. Some of us enjoy playing as much golf as life allows, and are very happy competing for plastic.
sleepy



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the notion here is to take away all prizes and plastic away from our amateur divisions, especially in novice / recreational and intermediate divisions, but to 1) incorporate those prizes into the players package and 2) flatten the payout in order to provide better value to all tournament entrants and not just the handful who finish at the top of their division. This would especially apply to Advanced where the top competitors can typically bring home merchandise worth more on eBay than all but the top Pro finishers.


Because it's mostly the Pros who are complaining about the current AM payout structure..TDs, the PDGA, manufacturers, and AMs are content with the current setup. It's the Pros who want the added cash to come from somewhere and want AMs to be enticed to move up to Pro, not basking in stacks of plastic they can win at any given tournament..



I don't know about you, but I see just as many TDs, PDGA members and amateurs who aren't content with the current setup, both here on the DISCussion board and out on the course. I played as an amateur for seven years and always thought it strange to win merchandise worth several times my entry fee for a high place in Intermediate while others went home with nothing. During my last two years in Advanced I often remarked how no matter the tournament, I could play poorly and still bring home my entry fee in merchandise. If I was a person without integrity I could be turning a real profit on eBay right now.

I thought you said that the pros needed to split off into their own association like the ball golfers did in 1968? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Maybe that was someone else.

My point being that there is no pie to be mad about not getting a bigger piece of. It's "phantasy pie".



Alright, let me try to be more clear. I believe I said that you cannot not take a direct comparison from that 1 for 1. What is the pie? The dollars that are out there and the resources that are potential for being tapped! Sure let us call it Fantasy/Phantasy pie (choice of spelling, who cares? :) )... the Pros SHOULD WANT that pie :)

If you want to think I mean the PDGA is at the point where they are in an IDENTICAL situation to the PGA at that point in time sure take it that way. What I meant is the fact that the pros were able to split off and improve the sport of professioanl golf is what is going to benefit the PDGA pros from branching off to help improve the Professional side of our sport. Does that make sense? I guess I am having trouble putting my thoughts into words that elminate any ambiguity.

Also didn't mean to come off harsh with my first reply :)...

I think there is nothing wrong though by looking at the History of a sport that is similar to ours and find things that may have went wrong there and maybe be able to apply them to our sport to accelerate growth?

Unfortunately all of these discussions will almost never go anywhere right now unless you have the persons that can get together and put the Time and Effort into venturing into the future with these seriously MAJOR endeavors.

Why do Ams have to get prizes?

Because Tony Bender is to scare to move up to Open :o:D

I don't think overall the PDGA focuses too much on the pro in total dollars. But they spend more money per pro which mostly justifies the difference in member fees. Things like support for the EDGE program are more Am oriented. In addition, more time and effort is put toward getting scoring and course layouts correct for all of the Am divisions in order to calculate ratings properly. At this point, most of the Board is made up of amateur players and anyone looking closely would see the gradual shift in focus from say 3 years ago.



This may be and I admit, I've not looked in at least three years. However,

26% Pro 74% Am (67% non-junior) 5381 Current members.

$104,929 From Pros,

$180,263 From Ams non-Jr.

Are you telling me that at least 63% of the PDGA's time and money goes into supporting Ams? If not, then the Pros are getting more than they're paying for. Keep in mind, that number changes when you add in the Juniors.

I know this is a hard number to assess, given there is so much overlap, but, I would argue that the general perception is that the PDGA focuses more on the Pro than the Am. There's no question that on a per body basis they do, which is why they raised Pro fees (poor James).

I'm not even complaining, Pat Govag's transformation model, and the PDGA's focus, were and still are driven by member demand. That includes a real survey, and where they get direction year to year.

I am saying, that it would be interesting to do a survey and see what comes out.

Maybe we should make it a requirement for each player wanting to play a tournament to approach three potential local business (ie a local bar as we all know most DGers like to drink, hotels near the course, tobacco shops, nearby conveinence stores who would benefit from a tourney, etc) with a sponsorship proposal. This would help the TD tremendously because there's only so much time in a day...the money that is obtained (ex: $100 gold sponsorship gets a tee sign and a banner at the tourney, $50 silver sponsor gets a tee sign, etc) would be applied as payout to the division in which the afore mentioned player is playing. And maybe provide an award(s) to the individual(s) who brings the money in.

Just thinking out loud...

Maybe we should make it a requirement for each player wanting to play a tournament to approach three potential local business (ie a local bar as we all know most DGers like to drink, hotels near the course, tobacco shops, nearby conveinence stores who would benefit from a tourney, etc) with a sponsorship proposal. This would help the TD tremendously because there's only so much time in a day...the money that is obtained (ex: $100 gold sponsorship gets a tee sign and a banner at the tourney, $50 silver sponsor gets a tee sign, etc) would be applied as payout to the division in which the afore mentioned player is playing. And maybe provide an award(s) to the individual(s) who brings the money in.

Just thinking out loud...



I think thats a great idea on the local level, but people have to be willing to help out and do their part and unfortunately too many people are greedy and selfish... They don't want to perform selfless acts without a lot of incentive then they are just doing it for greed ;)

Way too hard to enforce, and asking too much I think. But I do think its a sound idea, and more TD's should reach out to as many local players as possible to get them involved in the operation! A lot of TD's try to go at it alone with a few friends without even tapping the resource of the players :)

A local TD allows you to play for free if you get a $100 sponsor and that makes sense if you normally pay $30-50 and that gets an extra $50-70 into the pool. Don't know if that will work or not but definitely shouldn't hurt.

Why do Ams have to get prizes?

Because Tony Bender is to scare to move up to Open :o:D



:mad:

:D

Easy there, McKibblesNBits.

-Staunch supporter of Amateur trophy-only (thus making the Am-for-life scenario a real committment)

This may be and I admit, I've not looked in at least three years. However,

26% Pro 74% Am (67% non-junior) 5381 Current members.

$104,929 From Pros,

$180,263 From Ams non-Jr.

Are you telling me that at least 63% of the PDGA's time and money goes into supporting Ams? If not, then the Pros are getting more than they're paying for. Keep in mind, that number changes when you add in the Juniors.

I know this is a hard number to assess, given there is so much overlap, but, I would argue that the general perception is that the PDGA focuses more on the Pro than the Am. There's no question that on a per body basis they do, which is why they raised Pro fees (poor James).




That's a pretty deep analysis there. I suspect most of the budget is administrative, and those activities are roughly equal to the % of pro/am. Calculating ratings, stuffing renewal envelopes, mailing the magazine, answering questions, etc.

In fact, the whole cost of administering ratings is an am benenfit. Pros don't need ratings, the whole reason for that project was to divide ams, which was only required because or our plastic paying scheme. If payouts were flat, there would have been no need for ratings.

So, in sum, your little theory that pros are "getting more than they paid for" is bs.

By the way Chuck, does it ever register with you when ams post that they themselves would still play trophy only, or with flatter payouts? It would not be the earth shattering event you prophesize. After you quickly gloss over that phenomenon, answer why you don't propose to also let the rec/inter/adv (or whatever the names of the day are) take 50% in cash. Why is that "benefit" only available to the expert division?

Good response James. And you have some valid points. In fact, you can go and look at the budget and see that most of it is Administrative.

Question, if the PDGA kicks money into tournaments where do they do it? Do they donate to the Am payout or Pro?

When the PDGA started the NT, was the focus on the Am players or on growth of the Pro division?

Now, don't get me wrong, I concede this point, more money goes to the Ams than I thought (I should have thought more carefully) but the reality is still, when the PDGA acts, they tend to do things for the Pro even though their overall efforts benefit the Ams proportionally more (simply because there are more of them).

BTW - I would say Chuck's response is closer to the correct one.


I don't think overall the PDGA focuses too much on the pro in total dollars. But they spend more money per pro which mostly justifies the difference in member fees. Things like support for the EDGE program are more Am oriented. In addition, more time and effort is put toward getting scoring and course layouts correct for all of the Am divisions in order to calculate ratings properly. At this point, most of the Board is made up of amateur players and anyone looking closely would see the gradual shift in focus from say 3 years ago.

By the way Chuck, does it ever register with you when ams post that they themselves would still play trophy only, or with flatter payouts? It would not be the earth shattering event you prophesize.




I don't fear it nor discount it's validity. My point is to be inclusive and allow TDs the freedom to do what works in their area, not force any particular format. As I've pointed out before, we haven't yet been able to get agreement among a dozen NT TDs on a consistent format. I can't imagine forcing a format on 500 TDs.



After you quickly gloss over that phenomenon, answer why you don't propose to also let the rec/inter/adv (or whatever the names of the day are) take 50% in cash. Why is that "benefit" only available to the expert division?



Glad you asked. I have proposed that all pros have the option to convert any of their merch winnings at 50% cash when playing in an Am division starting in 2008. I tried to get that into our current system for 2007 to no success. It worked in our test run at the Mid-Nats last year and I agree it should be consistent for all levels. Limiting the 50% conversion to only the Expert division would be especially discriminatory for pro women who have benefitted the most from the ability to slide over to the appropriate Am division due to low numbers in most areas.

Why do Ams have to get prizes?




Because the PDGA sanctioning agreements reguire percentage payouts based on entry fees.


I can't imagine forcing a format on 500 TDs.




Doesn't The Association already do this with their mandatory payout tables?

Entry fees are maximums and player packs worth $10 is all that's required at B-tiers. None at C-tiers. So, max of $10 payout as a player pack is all that the current PDGA B-tiers require. No prizes required but trophies would be nice. A-tier requires a $25 player pack but no prizes. And, the PDGA allows dual tier sanctioning so pros could be at A-tier and Ams at B or C level. That's the nature of offering options for TDs.

I have proposed that all pros have the option to convert any of their merch winnings at 50% cash when playing in an Am division starting in 2008. I tried to get that into our current system for 2007 to no success. It worked in our test run at the Mid-Nats last year and I agree it should be consistent for all levels.


BOOOOO!!!! I hope you fail misreably on that one, Chuck.

It's hard enough to be a TD without having to stock enough plastic to pay out everyone in the am division and then also have enough cash on hand to be able to cash them all aout at 50% also.

Think about it. Not every TD is also the local disc retailer. Not every TD has a store at their disposal. Many hard-working TDs make the tournaments work, and this BS "let the pros play am but also give them the option of cash" crap sucks for a TD. It makes planning a lot more difficult than it has to be. in fact it makes planning impossible.

Who gives a crap if it worked at Am Nats. It doesn't work for a TD who runs one tournament and needs one tournament worth of payout.

There should probably be a process for exempting tournaments from this requirement on a case by case basis. The 50% concept will work for most TDs, but if you only run one tournament a year, I can see how it would be a problem.

So far I have not found many pros or ams wanting to part with their prizes for 50% in cash. Most of the Brass I buy back comes from other vendors. When Mark Ellis wins Brass, he wants his prizes!

I was thinking that some TDs would not like this option and IMPO should be allowed to be disallowed by the TD .
we have a few tourneys back home ( non sanctioned of course ) that is all prizes ( or mostly anyhow )
the point is I have the ability to get rid of stuff at non sanctioned events and could easily give the 50% cash to lots of people at PDGA events .

I can see your point how wholesale conversion could potentially be a problem since planning for and getting stuck with too much logo merch can be a problem for any TD. The question would be how many pros would actually be playing in the White division or lower to potentially ask for conversion? In the long run, if more players below 925 turn pro so they can do the conversion, it could become a problem. In the short term though would it be significant? I think conversion should at least be allowed if either the Expert division for A-tiers and/or Blue division longer range get approved since these would be the transition divisions before pro level.

Ways to deal with it could be:
- Letting TDs specify whether they will allow it or not?
- If TDs disallow conversion, then they have to allow 1 or 2 person pro divisions?
- Limit the option to higher divisions like White and higher?
- Limit the conversion option to only higher tiers?
- Player packs would not be intended be allowed for conversion anyway. So, if a lower entry fee primarily covers player pack cost, there wouldn't be much payout to convert.

never mind

Most on the Comp Committee would rather I go back to the "smokey room" and not vet these ideas in the messy D-Board arena. I'm one of eight members on the Comp Committee and my influence might only be a little more than 1/8 because I'm one of the primary proposal generators. For example, my recent proposal to allow Trophy Only players in NTs was defeated 7 to 1.

Based on my reception here, my inclination is to stop posting altogether and let our two Board members supporting open communication be the only way members hear about plans after the fact since they can't talk about them until they are voted on. It would save me vast amounts of time and headache. No one has even acknowledged that discussion of proposals has now moved almost 6 months earlier so members have the chance to comment before they are finally approved at the Fall Summit prior to the next season.

When you hear me stonewall certain ideas, it's less likely my personal opinion versus echoing the prevailing points of view I've had to deal with while battling for almost 10 years now to get ratings more involved in the competition system. The proposals I put forth are ones that I think have a reasonable chance to get approved in the current environment but are certainly not a lock. Don't assume anything will change just because I put these ideas out here. All I've earned is the respect from Committees and the Board to listen to and evaluate my proposals. They still have the vote.

I'm not limiting the Expert proposal to A-tiers because I think it's necessarily best in the long run, but because I think it has the best arguments to overcome resistance to the concept at all, and get a chance to move forward. It's like a chess game. You usually can't get to your goal in one step but have to figure out the interim moves that can be achieved to eventually get you there.

never mind

I knew it was just a chip malfunction. Welcome back to the Collective, Rhett.

mmmm....PDGA good......dissent bad....

Most on the Comp Committee would rather I go back to the "smokey room" and not vet these ideas in the messy D-Board arena.



Translation" Chuck, it's Oz. Get off the bored. The ugly truth is coming out and we can't have that. This whole thing is starting to look like a sham and an empty house of cards. If we ignore them maybe they'll give up and stop asking questions and demanding change.

Balony Hawk, and you to Rhett.

You don't need a grand conspiracy, or even a desire to shut down commentary to get the Competition Committee or the PDGA to not like these kinds of threads. You only really need some hard worked people.

There are lots of "things" that lead to a lack of response and a desire for these types of threads to not occur. Most of those "things" are real issues dealing with real people and real emotions. The best way to get a good response is via patience and open discourse.

I've seen dozens of changes occur in the PDGA and their approach to issues in the past 5 years, many of which started right here. Most came about because those proposing them supported the PDGA and didn't throw innuendo at them.

You're right, if you're expecting them to throw over everything and do what ever gets suggested here, it's never going to happen. Just look at these threads about our competition structure, it's not like there's a unified voice here and everyone posting admits there's a problem.

On the other hand:

If you really want change you have to present a clear picture of where you're going. Better if it is from the group, but at some point, someone needs to go through the material here, propose a structure, and present it. The reason why Chuck is so effective is that he does that. He always listens, comments, and then proposes something clear and well laid out. If you want an alternative to what he is proposing, something equally clear that offers solutions for the issues he raises needs to come forward.

BTW - it can't be too radical. Even if everyone thought it was best, too radical of change is always a killer. Human nature doesn't like it. You have to remember, it isn't just the 30 people posting here, it's the entire PDGA; how do you get buy in from everyone?

There are lots of venues for discussion of change in the PDGA, especially for people willing to stand up, volunteer, and commit to a responsible role in making change happen, as opposed to simply taking pot-shots from their keyboards in DISCussion.

In fact, DISCussion, especially these few threads, is the closest thing going in disc golf to a politician's smoke-filled room, right down to the fact that even just entering it makes a good number of PDGA members so ill that they don't bother.

I make change happen and I take pot shots. I'm a multi-tasker! :D

I make change happen and I take pot shots. I'm a multi-tasker! :D



yeah, but being a lawyer, you can also get people whacked that disagree with you :D:D