Just throwing this out there. Should the PDGA offer some sort of protection to an established club (with an annual and long running tourney) to keep an individual from taking over and running a PDGA event? Why would the PDGA allow an individual to host a PDGA tournament in a disc golf club's backyard, without the consent of the club or any area golfers? According to a Regional Coordinator the PDGA policy is to not ban anyone from hosting a tournament (unless it is a person who has messed up in the past, and has been "sanctioned" by the Board). If there is a conflict with a tournament already
scheduled by a club, of course the club's tournament would be protected. So if their paperwork beats yours to the PDGA, your club is screwed. Just doesn't seem right. Any ideas?

I'm glad this point has been brought up. I foresee many such situations of this type on the horizon. I'm interested to hear input on the subject myself.

Add to this the fact that the PDGA does no checking up on whoever wants to run an event.
The TD could be a known drug dealer or alcoholic and as long as he fills out the forms, passes the test and sends in the money, he is good to go.
When you turn in your results there is a box to check that asks if you plan on running your event the same date next year. That should protect your event and date. There was a mailing sent out last month of proposed and confirmed dates for this year based on past dates and applicatons.
Seems that a tourney that has a record would superceed one that has never happened. Must be an oversight.

Can we have some details ? (even hypothetical)

If the distance requirements are met for new events, what is the problem ?

Existing tournaments should always have the first rights to traditional dates. New tournaments should have to ask permission, or find other dates.

What can be done about non-sanctioned events that crop up in neighboring communities ?

I would support the PDGA in making it a rule to have new TD's recomended by at least the State Coordinator.

No more 1st time TD's who have not even played a PDGA event. They should at least help Asst. TD an event first.

I also don't think the PDGA should sanction a 1st time PDGA event with anything other than a C-tier. Let the new tournament make a name for itself.

You can be a B-tier, just because you want it. At least you have to be approved for an A-tier.

(for a TD who has run events in the past, or a new TD taking over an existing tournament would be exempt)

As far as who should make the call for a tournament on a course. It should be up to the Course Pro who can run events on there courses.

Proto - you issue isn't defined very clearly in my mind...

You stated: "...to keep an individual from taking over and running a PDGA event? Why would the PDGA allow an individual to host a PDGA tournament in a disc golf club's backyard, without the consent of the club or any area golfers?"

No one needs anyone's consent to run a sanctioned event. As far as "taking over" an existing long-standing tournament, then that is a different matter. Who is the TD of record? Did that TD of record decide to cede the running of the tournament to someone else?

In many cases, a volunteer is sought to TD a particular event, but the lack of a volunteer (or maybe a choice of volunteers) is what determines who the TD is. If someone wanted to run an event, but missed a particular club meeting where it was decided, then too bad. If the new TD is setting up a format which you don't like, then make sure you get your name on the volunteer list for next time...

I agree with Pizza in that nobody should run a sanctioned event that hasn't done it before at least as an assistant TD, and surely NOT AT ALL if they've never even played in one before!!!

Heres a hypothetical situation: Your local parks dept. brings to your attention that they will be making changes perhaps even relocating your only course to another park. You can't schedule a PDGA tournament because you don't know what shape or form your course may be in. The changes then get put on the backburner and are running behind. At the start of a new year, it happens again. This time, they just want to change it around a bit, to make room for some new construction. We have an upcoming meeting with the parks dept, and it looks like we will have to make a few minor changes, but we could host a tourney there this summer. This individual (who isn't part of the club) decides that the club is not doing anything at the home course, and now is planning on hosting a b-tier there. He is fully aware of the situation with the parks dept. and the changes they want to make. He refuses to be involved with the club. This club also hosts 2 b-tier tourneys in the area, and has been doing hosting tourneys for 20 years. I just don't think its cool to allow ANY individual the right to host a tourney. Their should be some kind of TD protocol before this gets out of hand. If not, someone could come to your town, and host a tournament. where do you live? how about i schedule a b-tier there? Somethings got to give. The club and area golfers do not endorse anything this individual does, let along run a sanctioned event. You would be a fool to give this person $$ for anything......

yes that sounds like a tricky situation. too bad your description turns into a rant against the individual. this kinda clouds your case by making it sound like its more of a personal thing.

overall though, anyone should be able to use any public park and its facilities. thats why its called "public". if the guy is as worthy of disdain as you describe, not many players will show up and he wont be back next year.

The point is why would the PDGA allow an individual to host a tourney, when they know there is an established club with a long history of promoting disc golf in the area?

This is something the State Coordinators are supposed to help with in terms of scheduling issues within a state. Usually Guru will do some checking with state or local known club TDs/officials regarding sanctioning a B-tier if the potential TD is unknown or there's some question brought up by others. Someone on that sanctioning form also had to be listed as a PDGA official. Would that likely be this person or one of your other club people?

The easiest way to keep this from happening is for people not to show up at these events.At some point there will have to be several layers of tournys(perhaps am only and pro only),it is gonna get tougher to manage as more courses go in and more folks start playing.Some people dont care if a tournament is sanctioned or not,they just like playing tournaments.So if you only like sanctioned events play em,if you want to run sanctioned events,file the papers and run a good show to guarantee players coming to your event the next year.

Yeah. Anyone can do whatever they want. Anyone can support, ignore or fight against whatever anyone wants.

One of the purposes of having an organization such as the PDGA, is to bring order to the chaos that can be caused by everyone doing whatever they want.

Yes, a long-standing club could have internal problems. Disgruntled members could attempt to undermine club efforts and have the course removed from the park.

The PDGA could have many effects on such a circumstance:
1. Nothing - anyone can do whatever they want...and it doesn't matter if they are PDGA members or not. The PDGA will lend it's support to anyone willing to meet sanctioning requirements.

2. The PDGA could have club affiliates whose elected club officials are recognized by the PDGA, through the state coordinator. The PDGA would back the efforts of these club officials. If a person(s) disagreed with a clubs policies or decisions made by leading club officials, that person would be encouraged to organize members of the club to support the person(s) ideas and to wrestle support away from those with whom the person(s) disagree. Such local politics, should be encouraged, if it is done with the intent of gaining votes within the club. This, in the place of attempting to undermine club officials by going behind their backs to the city, or causing trouble at their weekly events.

Travelling salesmen who can come to town on a breeze and leave on a whirlwind, should be required to work through the auspices of the recognized people, who are responsible for everyday care of courses which they represent.

Again, if someone feels these people are not meeting their responsibilty, that someone is more than welcome to organize on the local level and become the representative by proof of votes through membership.

This "anyone can do whatever they want" school of thought does not fit in with being organized. You can do what you want, but you should have to do it within the framework of the organization. Loud mouths, size of body and size of purse should have little to do with the recognition one gets from the PDGA on a local level. It should have to do with elected club officials, of PDGA affiliate clubs.

But I could be wrong. I was up late last night.

Here's a thaught...Why don't the PDGA give all affiliate clubs, such as the Des Moines Disc Golf Club for example, exclusive rights to santioned tournaments in that city. That way, only club members could run an event in that particular city.

Proto,

Come to WA state and host some B tiers. We need a carpetbagging TD.

JC & KH not doing it for you Erik?

Proto, did the TD in question get approval from Parks for his tourny? Here, we must coordinate with the Park Dept, and they will only go through our Club prez/course pro & a few other Club members. Sounds like your Parks isn't going to be happy with this individual. jm2c

Well, we're just short a couple this year. The group that runs the disc golf scene in WA does one heck of a job, it's just that there are usually more people willing to step up and complain than there are people willing to step up and TD. But the people in this state that run events run great ones.

"it's just that there are usually more people willing to step up and complain than there are people willing to step up [and do something]"

Sounds familiar. Our local club is having actual elections for the first time in over 2 years (since I moved here). We're electing 4 officers, guess how many candidates there are? Guess how much whining we'll hear later?

My excuse is school, but I offset my lack of volunteerism with a lack of complaining and trying to show as much appreciation as I can. Although, WA state had a great voter turnout for the PDGA coordinator positions, so maybe it's just a matter of time before the people that care begin to volunteer and continue the great tradition of Disc Golf in the Northwest corner.
Here's to hoping.

Please excuse my ignorance, can anyone tell me if the PDGA limits the # of "santioned" events one course, club, or city can be approved for in a calender year; how many?

Tim: I seriously doubt that the PDGA BOD would restrict a city to a maximum number of tourneys. Within some busy states, there might be some scheduling conflicts with neighboring cities, but that is usually left up to the state coordinator to work out with the hosting cities/clubs.

I could see how a city might possibly hit 40 or more tournaments in a year, but it would be hard to imagine that it wouldn't conflict with a neighboring city...

It also depends on what tier the competing city and you city's tourneys are...Super Tours get priority, then A-tiers, then down the line. If it is a Super Tour or A-tier, then they won't sanction another tourney too close to it for the same weekend unless it is generally a C-tier...

There was some sort of restriction up to the early 90s but not any more. However, there are restrictions on how close events at different tier levels can be on the same date(s). Check the sanctioning agreement for the guidelines. Events that are too close according to the guidelines will be allowed if the affected TDs agree it's OK.

I have heard of no limit on the number of events a single course or city can host in a given year.

I have heard of some taditional events being in danger of disappearing because the traditional TD's are suffering from burn-out or have moved so it is difficult to continue running a Tournament that is no longer in their home town.

I do not have a problem with a traveling TD stepping to run a traditional tournament. The understanding in this case is that the new TD has discussed the situation with the TD of record, and the state coordinator to determine that no one seems to be ready to step up and fill in for the vacating TD.

I can't see what value there is in being so territorial that a club would prefer to see no event take place rather than see an event put on by a visiting TD.

correct me if i'm wrong...which on occasion i am...i don't know where this is...(i am assuming wa state)...but isn't this the same thing that himing and mace do in texas with no trouble?? running tournamentsin other cities/course pros/td's backyards is what the texas 10 does and maces show does to a smaller extent......

i had a sort of similar situation for am worlds last year as the club in miami tried to get the pdga to move worlds because they wanted/had nothing to with it as they as a club knew they couldn't handle it.........but since i was using td's from around the state to help...i just kindly asked them to help keep the course from falling apart and got the few members that wanted to help me to keep things moving forward.......it can be tough if personalities get in the way....but traditional td's and dates SHOULD ALKWAYS HAVE PRECEDANCE unless something aggreious has been done....
but it is also my experience with the pdga that depending on who it is they are trying to make happy at that moment........the dates WILL be changed for you whether you like it or not.....just ask john biscoe,myself,santa cruz,etc...if you think that isn't true....keith

GnDuke - We had planned on hosting a tourney but at the time the club felt it would be unwise to schedule a tournament. There were some changes that were going to be made to the course due to a new construction project in the park. We didn't know (or the parks dept)what conditon the course would be in.

JC - we will be in contact with parks to make sure he has properly approved the course for tourney use.

I dont think there would be a problem if they had approached the club and tried to work with them. Send mace our way. He at least calls and gets the ok from local clubs before he runs his doubles (at least he did here). Same thing with Stokely's clinics. He didn't just show up unannounced. He called to see if it was Ok to hold the clinic. He didn't want to interfere with anything that was already planned. which by the way, was the proper way to handle it. at least in my opinion.

For the most part, I'm gonna steer clear of comparing my particulars to what sounds like a strained situation, but I'll add to something that's already been said.

Some tourneys, as was already mentioned, fall by the wayside without new TDs stepping up and running them. Additionaly, there can be a communication problem between a club and city PARD personnel that allows mixups to occur. This is sometimes caused by the evaporation of a visible club presence and outdated contact info.

One school of thought, which I happen to subscribe to, is that there is often way too much infighting over who gets what piece of which pie, when in reality all the chefs could be baking enough for everyone. Its funny that we often lament TDs not wanting to do an event anymore and then worry about new TDs ticking off an established club or player base.

Should there be some control involved to keep the inevitable worst case scenario (and with our growth, its coming), from occuring too frequently? Yes! A good State Coordinator should be someone who can oversee the contact information database in his state, serve as the #1 contact person for people wanting to TD an event in a given area and be as diplomatic as possible when working with groups who have different agendas.

If you're a TD looking to do an event in (Insert Your State Here), you should absolutely have to call the State Coordinator first. He or she should then either know whether this will work or should be the authority to find out. Once the State Coordinator says, "Your event on April 1st at City Park in Palookaville is cleared with the state calendar and the PDGA," then you should be able to go forward. Anyone having a problem with that scenario, for reasons either logical or petty, should take it up with the State Coordinator and ultimately, the PDGA.

My slightly-more-than-two-cents worth. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

what have i told you about trying to make sense???

stop it before someone gets hurt /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

thanks for the offer and if i ever get back into texas i will be sure to come visit the martyr household...keith

Proto,

Just a final question, were any of the club members in contact with the state coordinator ? In some cases he might be able to help with local PARD issues (probably not in most cases, but you never know). He would at least be able to redirect any inquiries from potential TD's to the club and let them know that the club was actively pursuing holding the event in question.

If the state coordinator is unaware of the efforts of the club, there is not much way he can protect your dates or site.

The State Coordinator should have the say on yes or no for a tournament.

For the most part, Texas is that way. If someone contacts the PDGA for a Texas tournament, they refer them to me. (Of course I have bitched when it didn't happen so it will not happen again) In other words, No tournament in Texas without me giving the OK.

I have the distance guide lines, but I don't think I have any TD requirements other then they have to be a current member and passed the TD test. (I can't belive anyone doesn't pass this open book test)

The state coordinator was well aware of the situation, they basically said there was nothing they could do to prevent anyone from hosting a tournament anywhere. The PDGA does not have a policy in place to prevent it from happening. The state coordinator and Parks is well aware that there is an ACTIVE club. All contact info is up to date.

mark atwood - our tournament has not fallen by the wayside. It was merely postponed due to some changes that were going to be made to the course. We have new TDs ready to step up and run them.

Pizza God - it must not work that way here.
Something needs to be done, so how do we go about changing the way it is?

You are a few weeks too late, the elections for coordinators was at the end of the year. The PDGA does not have limits, but the state coordinator (according to PG) can say no if he takes control of the schedule.

I must say, I appreciate the bountiful information offered on this thread and this board in general. Q?-Is there a list of state coordinators, td's and other prominant contacts that a new td or club pres could refer to make learning the system faster. I have received plenty of help myself, but only after many hours of research and frustration. It seems like someone somewhere would fill the gap and produce a "getting started" guide. The PDGA web site has plenty of info, and maybe I missed the data I'm refering to, but there's so much more "out there"-somewhere!. Most players that I represent in Orangeburg(SC) don't have the time to have done all the research that I have to even get to this point.Thanks again for the input!!! Tim (Shade) Hogg - PDGA # 4030

There's a "Running a PDGA Event" guide on this site. I've looked at it for making sure that certain details don't fall through the cracks. It was actually quite helpful.

http://www.pdga.com/how_to_run_event_part1.php

Im not sure if the state coordinators can say no. I was told it is not the PDGA's policy of declining a request to host a tournament. Unless they have been "sanctioned" by the board....whatever that means. Thats what I think needs to be changed. Someone should have the right to respectfully say NO, please contact your local club about possibly hosting a tournament.

As for contacting State Coordinators:

http://www.pdga.com/feedback.php

in our area state coordinators put the schedule together for the most part. while i have not told anyone flat out that they could not have a pdga event, i have SUGGESTED that events not be scheduled- the parties involved have been respectful of that.

i have told any number of events they could not be held on particular dates. Virginia will have approximately 20 PDGA events this year and the schedules in NC to our south and the Mad-C area to our north are similarly full. it is through the work of the state coordinators (alan beaver for nc, tom paxton for md, matt lacourte as mad-c schedule meister) that a reasonable schedule with a minimum of conflict is constructed. in our area this process has gone progressively smoother each year since the switch to state coordinators. without the state coordinators having some say on individual events this could not occur.

john biscoe
VA state coordinator

Very good John,

Are you actually turning down TD's request for events, or just re-scheduling.

If the events are going un-sanctioned, It would still be a good idea to have them on the schedule for other states and TDs to see. There are several un-sanctioned events in Texas now that have grown over the years to very large events that a new TD would not want to schedule against.

Proto, who is this person that went behind your clubs back, are they well known? Just host your tournament as you always do and have the nice ammentities that Louisville always does and you will get your usual full field. The heck with backstabbers who go behind peoples back. I agree that the TD's should have to go through the state coordinators, but obviously there is nothing in print at the time. Just have your tourney and let the dorkface have his/hers and you will succeed as Louisville always does.....

bs

i told hysell once i would rather he not sanction a given event. this was due to considerations involving events outside the state. i never actually said "you cannot do it" but chris was respectful of my ideas on the matter so it never became an issue. that being said i can envision scenarios where i would turn down sanctioning altogether.

should i be approached by an individual asking to run a new event on a course where the organizers have traditionally been someone else i would certainly inquire regarding the change prior to recommending sanctioning.

we have one very large unsanctioned event in VA each year and i have given up trying to sanction around it as it doesn't remain on the same weekend each year and the td has been unreceptive to changing it. otherwise our nonsanctioned events are expected to schedule around the sanctioned ones not vice versa.

Thanks for the leads Mark!

No prob, Shade.

I would rather not get into the whos of the situation. Our club just wants to see some changes made that would prevent this from happening again. The fact that they are running a tournament doesn't concern us now. They will receive zero local and area support. We will continue to run our tournaments, and make them bigger, badder, and better. We would like to see changes made to keep rotten individuals from possibly undermining all the hard work a club puts into the sport. The state coordinators should have some say on who can host, or at least attempt to mediate and find a solution. Maybe this could be part of being in the PDGA's club affiliate program. Which we are, by the way. Does anyone know how to approach the BOD about this? What do we do?

And Brad Schick - Go Bucks!

Hrmmmmm.....sounds like someone was trying to do tha right thing, the wrong way, to me. I wish all prospective TD's out there good luck. Ive staffed many an event, and seen the work behind the scenes it takes, and dont think I'll be stepping up to TD for a while.

KUDOS to our state coordinator, Im sure the scheduling nightmare isnt a fun job either, with as many events as we have here in Texas, and growing daily!!

I am all for T10 and Maceman events in Texas. But if T10 insisted on having a tournament at a park where a local club did not want the tournament (and this could be for many valid reasons...), then I would be opposed to such an event being held. Now I can't imagine Mr. Himing doing such a thing...but you never know...he could turn into some kind of nut. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The leader of a club must face the challenges of maintaining many different relationships, from city officials to club members, throughout the year. As has been stated on this thread, this can often be a tough task, and usually is done by someone who is the only person willing to do the job.

Again, it would be nice if clubs were affiliated with the PDGA and these club officials were recognized by the state coordinator.

Most people are going to work with the local club and wouldn't supercede the club. But for those that feel as if they rank higher than these club officials who volunteer their time for a job that is tough to say the least...it would be nice if the PDGA did not recognize tournaments which were thrown in such circumstances.

With all the questions regarding who does what for disc golf, there are few arguments against the extreme value of those who give their time in a voluntary effort to maintain a local course and club. These efforts are not rewarded in the same way as glittering tournaments which take alot of effort but quickly go away at the beginning of the next week.

Clubs should take precedence.

Hey Mr.Wimm who you calling a nut case, you freak/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I am proud to be involved with so many great clubs and cities during my little Texas 10 tour. The support recieved from all involved makes it easy to move from city to city.

If a TD tried to run an event at a course that the players and club did not want them to be there then they should be shot or at least very well boycotted. (Is that American?)

The system of a regional co-oridinater does work well but also the simple respect of other players and clubs involved.

Remember it should always be a win/win situation for all concerned.

Tar, Mr. Himing. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The most fun wins.

Too bad most of our courses are in Public Parks.
Basically anyone can run any tourney anytime as long as it is OK with the Parks Dept.
OF course, a PDGA event is another matter with more complex circumstances.

What is the policy in your area on carpetbagging?

If the local club doesn't want to run a PDGA tournament, and someone is offering to run one which could include cleaning up the local course beforehand, working out a partnership with sponsors, bringing in out-of-towners in to see our wonderful courses, and kicking down some $$ to that local club, for heaven's sake why would the local club turn that offer down?!?

Just because someone comes in with excellent intentions, doesn't mean that they will be able to pull off what they are attempting without leaving bad impressions with the local players, the local parks dept, the local city council, etc.

If there was someway to guarantee that a touring TD would come in make the players, club, and city happy and leave the course in better shape than they found it, then it would be a different question.

There are a lot of things that a club should be doing that a visiting TD may not be aware of or interested in.

To answer the question, generally if there is an organized club, they are working closely with the parks department. The parks department will normally work with the local club with all questions about disc golf.

Sounds narrow minded. Not sure why the local club has to be a player in the scenario unless they want to help? For pay-to-play facilities, they are looking for TDs to come in and run events as part of the business model. For public courses, the taxpayers including companies in the area benefit from having a nice course that brings in people to generate revenues for the businesses at least, even if the Parks Dept doesn't collect any fees.

Might be narrow minded, but keeping a good relationship with the parks dept and the neighbors is important around here.

There are several courses that are very popular and would have 5-6 events a year if there were no restrictions placed on them by the local clubs. I think that would reduce the draw of the club's big event each year.

That idea is developed in an area where there are a lot of courses in the ground, and a sanctioned event within driving distance almost every weekend.

If it was a sparsely populated area, my ideas may be different, but if a promoter in such an area can not get approval from the local club, what kind of draw will he be able to generate ?

Many times there's a disconnect between local leadership and club members versus what the majority of rec players care about which is playing, of course.

From a practical standpoint, our industry is so small that a promoter wanting to come in and run an event that the local club/leadership objects to usually means there's some other political agenda in play here that has nothing to do with whether they can run a good event.

That may be true, but I still see the equation from a local developer view point.

If there is an active club that works well with the parks dept, then they should have some control over what happens on the course. If the relationship is not there, then the roaming TD can easily get in touch with the parks dept and arrange a tournament.

The club did not say they were not interested, they said give them some time for the new officers to go over the priorities for the club. Patience grasshopper. :cool:

All I do is carpetbagging. Is there a public course anywhere that some local club does not think is their private course?

The club did not say they were not interested, they said give them some time for the new officers to go over the priorities for the club. Patience grasshopper. :cool:



Matt, I was referring to no local club in particular. This question affects several different courses that I regularly play at which are under the watch of thier respective club. Remember, I said "IF the local club doesn't want to run a PDGA tournament..."

Don't you think the term Carpetbagger is a bit harsh tough?

Don't you think the term Carpetbagger is a bit harsh tough?



Matt,

I'd agree that the financial or political exploitation aspect of the term carpetbagger is probably not appropriate.

This is just one thing about disc golf that has irked me for years. I've never understood how courses become the "turf" of one club and others are forbidden to hold tournaments there. This is especially relevant if the local club doesn't want to hold PDGA-sanctioned tournaments and there is a strong desire from the local fanbase as well as out-of-towners to hold a PDGA-sanctioned tournament at one of the courses.