The cost is nothing compared to other organizations!
American Library Association dues are $100 per year, college alumni dues are $40, etc etc etc
and their magazines are no where near as cool as DGWNews

Fellow Member Randy,

I'm really trying to get your point Randy, I suppose you are not the only idiot here. (Jim certainly is another. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif )

Again, I do not discount or ignore the ideas and suggestions of members, however I do not give them as much credence as those I know are actually doing the work. Who walk their talk. This does not seem like a strange or unsupportable position.

"Force" is a strong word. Volunteers simply do the best that they can with the time and energies they have. I've heard that you have run a Wolf game in your area. I don't know what is involved in such and effort, but I am certain that you had to deal with at least one person who didn't like the way you were do things, or even just a single thing. Did you have to "force" your will on them so that the event could continue?

I would prefer to say that you exercised your will and provided direction through your decision that it should be done a certain way. If you hadn�t, from the start, then the result would be no Wolf game. Leadership should not be undervalued or bashfully demeaned. It is sorely needed in these early days of our sport. From the start, it has been the will of certain leaders that have moved us forward, and it will be that way now and in the future as well.

Yes, certain things are accomplished by the will of the membership, but the great things now being done by the PDGA would not be happening were it not for the personal sacrifice of volunteers.

Marty Hapner � Had the vision and fortitude to make this website 98% of what it is today. He did this mostly on his own. Who do you think he was more likely to consult in preparing it, PDGA volunteers or players?

Mark Ellis � Saw a need and created the X Tier to answer some of the tournament formats that were being tested out there. Who do you think he consulted, Joe Some or Tournament Directors?

Pat Govang � Took the membership mandate and decided that he would be the person to make these grand and good ideas a reality. Do you think he called up people that had never undertook such an effort but who had strong opinions about it, or people that had experience and the know-how to help him take action and make it happen?

Brian Heoniger � Has been a steadying and forward thinking force within the PDGA for many years. He has manned the station that has whittled others down to quitting in a matter of months sometimes and taken on even more duties. Who�s guidance do you think he seeks.

Theo Pozzy � Decided to take our website an extra step into the future, and he won�t rest until he gets it to the point where he has envisioned it being. He is totally fearless in seeking out the help he needs to make this a reality.

Terry Calhoun � Took it upon himself to solve the communication issues facing the PDGA it�s governing body and it�s members.

Rick Rothstein � Decided years ago that what Disc Golf needs is a good and now great publication and did it.

Local and Regional Leaders like, well we all know who they are, that have out survived most of their contemporaries have made what we have today a reality, positioning us for ever greater things to come.

These people were not forced to take on the challenges they did, nor do they now �Force� them on the players and members at PDGA events or this message board. They do what they can, and have the fortitude to know that it will benefit us all. Sure, there are doubts, but things do not get accomplished by doubt, nor do things get accomplished by listening to folks that just like to yack, they get done by people willing to take on challenges and surround themselves with people that have the experience and fortitude to help them get it done.

This is the essence of what I am trying to say here. I hope that you and Jim can comprehend it, regardless of your aversion to my writing or debating style.

Sincerely,
Nick Kight

* Back on Topic *

I will renew my membership in the PDGA because I believe that it is the number one proponent of Disc Golf.

The organization is striving to meet the demands of its membership and it is striving to bring the sport into the mainstream through promotion and television. This will lead to larger and larger sponsorships which will not only kick more money into the Pro purses, but will also help us see even more courses built around the world!

Although I play non-sanctioned tournaments too, I prefer to play in PDGA sanctioned events.

I will renew my membership, along with Birdie Club membership, because I believe the PDGA is helping to create a 'greater good' for the sport. I don't agree with all of the small steps that are being taken, but I agree with the destination. I also haven't seen any of the detractors show us a better path.

Kind of why I pay my taxes. Yes, there are some disagreements in policy. But I am not aware of a better place to be, and have a better chance at changing the things I don't like by being a part of it.

I've been a Birdie Club member for several years now and I intend to renew. The sport is great and like it or not the PDGA is our organizing body.

In a way I agree with Tim. I don't know what the outcome of all the steps being taken will be, but what I do like about it is the amount of progress that is being made in a short lapse of time. Renew or join and you will have a voice.

I will most definitely renew the four PDGA memberships in my family. I have always been excited about disc golf and disc golf related things, but I am particularly excited about the current BODs potential to turn the corner for disc golf. Even though I am not a ratings proponent, and could take the new ratings based Am structure as a slight and run away crying because of it, I choose to stay the course because things are actually happening now. This would be a terrible time for anyone who loves the game to leave the PDGA!

I have been a member for 3 years now and an Ace Clubber for 2. I will definitely renew at that level again next year. As Rhett and others have stated, this is an exciting time to be involved in this sport.

I'm not a rubber stamp kind of guy. I whine and complain when I feel its needed and I dole out kudos and compliments when I feel they're merited. The fact is that whether or not I (or anyone else) agrees with everything the PDGA does or fails to do, I believe in the organization and their dedication to getting us to where we need to be.

Besides, its the sanctioning body of the sport we play. If you don't support it, you can't complain about it. Duh.

"Besides, its the sanctioning body of the sport we play. If you don't support it, you can't complain about it. Duh."

If only that would be true.

As I said on another thread, 3 years ago I was probably the most vocal critic of the PDGA on this board. And though Randy would like to take credit for my reform, the true cause of it is that I started to take ownership of my goals for the PDGA. I began to face the fact that if I wanted the things I wanted to happen to happen I had to get up and either do them myself or work with others who had similar goals. Those others with similar goals turned out to be some of the folks on the PDGA BOD.

I agree with everything in Jack's post on the other thread, but would like to point something out that might be of worth to him. He said that the PDGA doesn't really do much for people on a local level, that its focus is more centralized. Certainly this is correct and probably as it should be, HOWEVER, Jack, when you, anyone or I goes into a parks office, city council, community center, or school to promote disc golf on any level, SO GOES THE PDGA!

How? Quite simply. YOU ARE THE PDGA. Yes, you. As much as Brian, Theo, Pat, or Terry, you are a representative of the PDGA, and you are acting on their behalf on a local and direct manner.

As to membership, Terry Calhoun once wrote one of the wisest things ever written on this board about membership. It didn't directly concern getting greater numbers or enticing more people with value-add services, it had to do with whom we want to join and why we want them to join. If we want people to join solely for what they can get out of us, and offer pens, discs, tee shirts, and other junk, then we will attract people that are looking for self-gain. But if we seek out those that are informed about what we are about and are willing to contribute in the effort to get there, then we will have a membership that will be enlightened and ready and willing to work towards the greater good of the sport as a whole.

In other words, if we are concerned about the folks that are worrying one way or the other about what is of greater value to them, a membership or to pay the $5 per event, then we are concerned about the wrong thing. We need advocates. We need people willing to stay the course and be group goal oriented.

Sincerely,
Nick Kight

I've been a member just since july 02' and I will renew my membership. I Believe in the future of this sport and I feel the PDGA is a necessary component.
I'm glad to make my donation, because unfortunantly at this point its the only contribution I can really make for the sport.

More specifically I'm going to renew because, I know I'll be playing more larger tournies this coming year and i want to try to make Worlds.
I'm eager to see how the new rating system will pan out, I've finally elevated my game to the advance level and its very exicting to play these big ones to see where i fit in the mix.
This posting board is also a nice benefit with the membership, I like reading and getting peoples different perceptions, get sick of the same old agruments sometimes but I'm convinced more good then bad comes from all thread discussions.
There is one thing i really would like to see more of is local news and events of my area..
Thank you PDGA

I Don't recall when the PDGA numbers went to 10000 , but I have been a member longer than that. I was a member for years before I ever started playing in tournaments just because it was a way to support the growth of the sport.

I missed the first year of Ace Club memberships, but have been in the Ace Club every year since, and will continue it as long as I am a member. It is kind of a cop out for not being able to put more of my own time and energy into the sport.

I agree with Mark that you don't have a right to complain unless you are a member, but carry it further. You don't have a right to complain unless you are a member and have tried to accomplish a change to something you feel is incorrect. Then you have the right to complain, but only if you complain the people that can help the change the problem in addition to the few friends that you will tell your problems to.

Beyond complaining, you can not make useful suggestions unless you are a member, and are willing to invest your own time and energy to help make those suggestions a reality. That is why I will continues to renew. Because the PDGA will continue to represent to the world what we are, and if we want to have some of own views presented, we have to stay close at hand.

Because the PDGA can get my $100 every year to help them treat people like RW and NK the same.8*)

I can be a member of a group that is working towards building a sport that I can play every day of the year for less than the cost of going to a professional sporing event for 2 (excluding baseball).

The sport is CHEAP to join and call yourself a member. If the Birdie club is too much, then spend $35 and be a dues paid member.

It is Cheap and it helps our sport wether or not you choose to believe it. If more people paid, and stayed current, more people would take note and maybe our sport would grow into the mold of Gen-X games that we want, don't we?

Sorry, I wrote this about an hour ago, and did not see Nick's post.

Nick I agree with you we do represnet the PDGA, and disc golf in general. I typically do not carry the PDGA banner because I am president of the Kansas City Flying Disc Club, but I am also quick to point out that I am a PDGA official, and it does not hurt any efforts that I am attempting to do by admitting that I am a member that has over 20,000 members on the PDGA, I just don't go into the whole active number thing on that. Locally we have jumped up to close to 175 paid members in the KCFDC, up from a steady stream of 120, so we are making strides at the local level, and I think that if you review the number of PDGA members from the KC area, our numbers have probably doubled this year. (some no doubt of the Worlds, but also the 20th Wide Open was pushed big to club members!)

Thanks,

Jack

GO PDGA!!

I am happy to renew as a small way of thanking all of the people who volunteer their time as well as their money towards keeping our sport alive and growing. DD

Same as DD.

Warts and all, the PDGA is OUR professional organization. If you aren't part of the solution, you are probably the problem. Membership gives you a small amount of control over the destiny of this sport. You can participate or come off as a bitter whiner (No offense to any particular message board contributor).

P.S. Cause I love to play Disc Golf.

* Warts and all, the PDGA is OUR professional organization *

You'd think with all the duct tape that it's held together with, the warts would heal the PDGA... (http://www.drhull.com/EncyMaster/W/warts.html)

The problem with the PDGA is it's not a professional organization, it's legally classified as a non-profit organization. A professional organization would be for profit, have a vision and plan for how to legally bring more profits to it's members.

The PDGA is a nonprofit organization that "doesn't get it" as far as what it is, and as a result, it has lots of warts growing in all sorts of places...

sorry to disagree matt....but not EVERYTHING is as black and white as you make it out to be...not everyone who disagrees with the pdga or what they did/are doing is a problem...as nick even said(paraphrasing slightly to save time)if you don't agree join a committee or do something constructive for the sport(which there are several things you can do that are positive for the sport WITHOUT being a member)
so i don't think you (or nick or sometimes jack)needs to classify EVERYONE that doesn't agree with their points of views WHINERS and more than i (or randy wimm)can classify you as an idiot /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

just my thoughts....keith
pdga member since 96 and family membership since 97(when lorelei was born)and contributor of over a thousand dollars in pdga fees and membership fees for players that joined the pdga to play in the miami supertours out of my own pocket plus at least 30-40 players that signed up to be able to play in the miami supertours

i am sure that there are other td's out there with similar stories although most of them are smart enough to take the fees out of the prize fund or get sponsorships to cover them..i always threw ALL sponsorship dollars into the prize fund and paid all of the pdga and florida series fees and permit fees out of my own pocket

I will continue to be an Ace club member, like I have sense it started. I will continue to help local TD and players bring this game forward as much as I can. I will contunue to promote Disc Golf to new players.

Sometimes, it is the little things that are the biggest help.

This is the same reason I am a current card carring member of the Libertarian Party too. (but just a basic member)

Keith,

*so i don't think you (or nick or sometimes jack)needs to classify EVERYONE that doesn't agree with their points of views WHINERS *

This is a mischaracterization. For me whiners don't simply complain or disagree, they complain and disagree with no thought of being part of any solution. That is different from the way you paraphrased it. And in my book, being part of the solution is more than just jabbering away on this message board. It's taking actual action on a local, regional, or national level to provide solutions to issues directly related to disc golf.

I have a feeling that Jack would agree with this definition as well, and am pretty sure that you would too.

A PDGA membership is a minimum step in doing something to move our sport forward. Volunteering is a step above just joining. Running an event is a step above this. Getting a course in the ground is a step above this. Organizing on a Regional Level is above this. Organizing on a National or Worldwide Level is just about as high as you can go. This with a million steps in between. All are needed, and each is as much or as little as each person can do. Put them all together and you now have an idea of what the PDGA does.

Sincerely,
Nick Kight
PDGA Member #4861

Because I love to play Disc Golf/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Thread-killer in the house. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

i'll renew simply to play in sanctioned tournaments. no other reason. basically, the pdga is bs, it doesnt even care if its own rules are enforced. but as long as sanctioned tourneys are too full to allow non-members, i'll pay. for the pdga's sake, it should be hoping no other org starts up with a more serious attitude. it would be a shame to see the hard work putin by all the pdga volunteers go to waste as the more serious players leave to join a more serious group.

...and this person is more important than that person...and that person is more important than this person...

All on a thread about why we join the PDGA. Well...perhaps there is another reason why it is not attractive to join the PDGA. It could be that prospective members are turned off by "volunteers" who have turned into "volunteer ogres". And everyone knows what I'm talking about. Most of us have been around disc golf organization on a local level enough to know that every once in a while, a volunteer begins losing sight of what volunteerism is and starts feeling like something is owed for the volunteer work. Respect. More consideration for their thoughts.

All of us know about being appreciative towards everyone that does the work. All of us know about the merit in the words and thoughts of those that take action.

Those that belittle the efforts of anyone in this sport, no matter how small, are the same people that belittle someone that puts in 20 hrs. a week to run a disc golf club. And those 20 hrs. a week are when there is nothing going on other than normal club functions. The reason they can do this, is because there is always someone more important on their logical ladder to which to point to. It is stupid and rediculous.

If you want to volunteer for something, shut-up already and volunteer. Do it because you like it. Nobody owes you anything.

Join the PDGA. Join it because you want to. And forget about the people in the PDGA that want to treat you like they are important. Use their efforts for your enjoyment and laugh at them. I don't need to tell you to be appreciative towards the volunteers. But when they start getting snotty with you, just use them and laugh.

Keith,

I said "Probably" not absolutley so I wasn't as black and white as you think. I respect anyone's right to voice their opinion and I respect those who are willing to do something concrete to correct what they see as a problem even more. I don't see withdrawing membership as a constructive way to make changes in the organization or the sport. Oh, and thanks for classifying me in there with Nick, that was a low blow to my ability to state a thought succinctly /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif. How Rude! (http://socalgal-1.net/wav/sorude.wav)

Nick/RW: It's smart to listen carefully to the wisdoms of someone with more experience. It isn't a good practice to disregard anyone's opinion or complaints just because they lack volunteer experience though. Those people often generate truly unique, new ideas and concepts. A mark of a good leader is to draw those people into contributing - even if it is only by their ideas/suggestions. No one's opinion should be more important than another's...but we'd be idiots [/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif] not to listen more carefully when offered the benefit of experience.

Ching, duh! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sorry, but I tried. It was nice reading everyones reasons to join the PDGA. Except for the person whose reasons are to determine who should join and what value should be be put on what they have to say.

The guy should be on a committee that publishes the pecking order of the the PDGA. It would be pretty easy considering most of the membership would fit into the "none" category.

Not none, but the bottom rung of just members or barely above the bottom rung of members that just volunteer.

How low do you have to be on the rung to be totally discounted and have all contributions annulled? That is the issue.

The answer is having complaints which someone doesn't want to discuss.

Correct. It's called having purpose and focus, also taking action beyond jaw flappin'.

Fred: It is quite possible to be a non-profit organization and still be a goal-driven "professional" organization with a management structure, philosophy, mission, vision, budget, etc. It just takes time to develop.

Where will the PDGA be in 3 years? 5 years? 10?

That largely depends on the efforts of the various committees and subdivisions therein and the members(hence the need for ADVOCACY).
It is obvious that all current members cannot and will not be pleased with its efforts all of the time. It is up to those of us with the know-how to give a little time to what must be a good thing for the sport. I have a ton of ideas for simple things you can do to give back but that can be another thread for another day.
"Sometimes, it is the little things that are the biggest help" - Pizza God- You go dog!

Sandalman: How can you say "the PDGA is BS". Don't say that on my thread dude. (ADVOCACY)
If you are unhappy with the way they do or (as you stated) do not enforce rules, take the friggin test to become a PDGA official and help them regulate. You have no right to complain if you assist in the problem by tolerating it yourself.
Remember- a lot of enforcement issues and decisions are left to the group, there is no disc golf police or secret service.
And by the way, how do you define a "serious" player??? I am an extremely serious player. Am I good? (honestly- not really). But I am busting my [*****] on the course day after day. What are you busting your [*****] on?

Jack, Nick, Keith-maybe you guys need to duke it out in person :] and we can watch via live-action feed!

I will renew because I think the PDGA is working, warts and all.


P.S. I would like to watch those guys duke it out on pay-per-view if it included RW, DGDude and WWWorker!!!

Why don't we compete to see who can be a bigger advocate for the PDGA? Or see who can do more on a local, regional, and national level to promote the sport?

Now that would be worth fighting for. My money would be on Jack in running the Worlds. Still, I'd do my best to give hime a run for his money.

www would quit before the finish line.

rw would just stand on the sidelines and complain about how we were running the wrong way.

dgd would curse us out but he'd probably be trotting along.

I think I would be worshiping your accomplishments and joining you in demeaning those that didn't like your way of doing things.

I would do that just so you wouldn't take away my birthday.

Volunteerism isn't a competition! Any amount helps and should be appreciated. Sheesh!

Good post again Sue Anne! Thanks for contributing to the discussion in a positive way!

why don't we JUST NOT FIGHT nick and agree to hear ALL points of view whether YOU agree with the view or not...alot of people post here without being facetious in their posts but if that person has been a pain before or you don't like their posts...no matter what good is said in a post you go back in your mind to who the PERSON is instead of what THE POST says...especially now with the am ratings committee you are on.........people have posted very constructive things and the people you like get nicey-nice replies and the people you have a PREJUDICE for get smart alecky replies....
you cannot have it both ways....either listen to ALL thoughts openly or get the hellll out of the way of people who have open minds and can tell the difference between posts that are serious and posts that are not(like chuck kennedy)who will post serious responses to serious posts and silly responses when it is time to be silly......tyry it sometimes...it does work
my opinion only...keith

there is a bit of good news that comes from nickys self proclaimed "debating style"

by merely typing nicky eliminates ANY chance of ever being elected to the BOD.

whew. thank goodness for that.

let him spew his diatribe. he does it well.

most folks can see it for what it is.

horsedookey. bullcookies. yakdroppings.

btw, excellent thread.

you folks should-- by all means, renew.

And so should you. Just so you can be my friend. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I guess if Larry and Keith think I aught to give www and rw a more fair shake then perhaps I should. There is room for all kinds of views here. I can listen to it or not. It is ridiculous to take anything personally here.

Besides, they always give my posts here a fair shake, right?

Well, we'll see.

hey sue anne, i pay my dues.. so its MY THREAD TOO, right? i'll say what i want to on it. everyone else does.

and i dont tolerate breaking the rules... my poiint is that the pdga does NOT seem to care too much about actively promoting the concept of rules enforcement.

there is probably no alternative to leaving rules enforcement to the group. but the pdga could ADVOCATE (please dont yell at me for using YOUR word) stricter compliance and enforcement. it doesn't.

by serious player i mean someone who is in the game to improve, not someone who is there for recreation only. some people play in pdga tournaments to get out of the house. others play for the competition. i like to play for the competition. it has nothing to do with whether a player is good or not.

as far as what you do all day, it doesnt really matter to me.

i pay my dues even though i am living in china, where there are EXACTLY ZERO courses, and i do have no real idea as to when i will get back to the US. does that make me better than you? nope. but that really doesnt have anything to do with anything. except that i pay my dues and will use the pdga services provided as i wish. i told you why i was renewing, which complies with the thread title.

so back off.

I love Disc golf and I love the PDGA and I am poor but heck yeah will I renew even if I did'nt plan on playing any tourneys next year. I think the disc golf manufactures should create a disc that is so beautiful that it can only be attained by paying $100 for a pdga membership

nick ..I DO READ ALLLLLL OF YOUR POSTS ON ALL OF THE THREADS you post to as wella s everybody else posts on all the threads they post to....
i think that larry(my opinion only) and myself who
a.help run pro worlds and
b. did run am worlds have
c. done our part in helping the sport grow prosper and become bigger in our own small ways....
i only take exception to your posts when you go off on people without giving THEIR posts or THOUGHTS a chance because of a preconcieved feeling you have about them ...even when the posts are relevant to the thread or make good sense....
helll i have agreed with your ideas and issues on lots of threads and have posted the same on those threads where i did agree with you...but i also post thoughts on threads i disagre with you ortry to get another point across if i agree with part of your post...but you just ignore or rip into it and others ideas (however valid) without considering that the ideas might be of benefit to what YOU AND THE PDGA(and most others on the discussion board) are trying to accomplish which is to make the sport BETTER and to HELP IT GROW into something better

all of the ideas i tried and used at am worlds were based on trying to improve things that i didn't like at worlds i had been to as a player
and there are some that are trying to help make things improved at the worlds next year(another touristy area,flagstaff)to give the players a chance to have fun doing other thing bsides disc golf while they are on their weeks vacation....just because we don't agree on everything pdga related doesn't mean we have nothing of value to add....keep an open mind with people you don't agree with and i think you will learn a lot more about the people who have some damnnn good ideas about making things better...

my pdga supporting 2 cents worth
keith

Geez, how come we have to have a fight on what should be the most beautifully sickening love-fest thread?

Dear PDGA Message Board Readers,

Do you engage ideas that you have an interest in? Is it strange or unnatural to do so? No it is focused and purposeful. In general, we don�t waste our time responding to things that we see no worth or point of interest in.

One of the reasons I have decided to throw my support and efforts behind the folks and activities of the PDGA is because I perceive a certain high degree of focus and resolve by the members of the PDGA Board of Directors as well as the Regional and Local organizers. Part of that focus I believe is that the PDGA BOD would like for this message board to become more focused and informative. This does not mean that free speech will be restricted; it just means that it will be brought more closely in line with the focus and efforts of the PDGA, it�s volunteers and it�s membership. Dissent and disagreement are vital to gaining greater insight into issues of importance, but it does not have to come at the personal expense of members, volunteers, Board Members, or the PDGA.

Another reason I support the PDGA is because of its efforts to provide fairer, more inclusive, and fun events. This for me is the single greatest task underway at this time and will result in us as an association being ready for the growth in player/membership that is sure to follow considering where we are and all of the very strong initiatives begun or in mid-stride (Such as the new PDGA Head Quarters/Hall of Fame/Disc Golf Center, the National Tour, Updating the Capabilities of this Website to greater serve the needs of our membership, and just the basic sense of optimism that now exists among top organizers that we are on the right track.) .

The PDGA is made up of a great diversity of people. That is part of its strength. Still, the process of action does, whether we like it or not, involve a degree of stoic resolve and single-mindedness. With the limited resources (volunteers willing to actually do stuff), it is especially important to be focused, or resolve can easily dissipate and return to a state of good intentions unfulfilled.

You want my attention here? Join the PDGA. Volunteer to do something in conjunction with the PDGA. Share what you have done so that others can use it or learn from it. I know good intentions and noble beliefs, I lived among them for years, but they don�t get things done. Action does. And action in concert with others of similar goals does even more so.

Respectfully,
Nick Kight
PDGA# 4861

I sincerely apologize if I offended Sandalman (or anyone else for that matter) with previous statements. It was not my intention to rail you in any way. I only wanted to point out that it was not necessary to state that "the PDGA is BS" on what was intended to be a positive thread.
If I was harsh, I apologize and will use the excuse that I am just naturally kind of burly with words!

I totally respect sandman's membership (especially considering he lives in China!) and hope that the above mentioned concerns for the rules, and the other threads that deal with rules/enforcement issues mentioned by members and others can be addressed in a legitimate way. The revised rule book for 2002 and surrounding discussions is, at least, a start!

I hope to see a huge turnout this Sunday for the final round of the USDGC!!!!
And if you meet me there, you can say to my face "Oh, you're that bizsnitch from the message board"!!! and we can LAUGH together.

Boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen and any others that I missed, after much debate, I have a plan. This year has been very rough on me as a player. I have gone from an 85% casher to a 25% casher. The good news is that next year I will be master's age. The bad news is that by playing in that division, I may feel that I have taken the easy way out. No offense to the masters that can beat me. How should I make the transition? Here is a lesson which I learned from David Greenwell. While there are people who are debating on whether to renew their membership, I intend to renew in two divisions. That's the plan. Both Open and Masters PDGA cards. That should lessen the guilt a little.

no offense taken, sue anne... and i respect you for a thoughtful response.

this board is kinda of like a cross between a wolf game and big family dinner. i dont let it bother me.

Nick. When Keith says you don't listen, I believe it is said relative to your responses. He certainly meets your criteria.

I don't know how many people find it important to have your attention. I know I don't find it particularly important.

There is a big difference between listening for the sake of understanding and demeaning peoples efforts in order to debunk their opinions.

If you don't think people deserve to be listened to, by all means ignore what they have to say. This however is not your problem. Your problem is responding to everything you disagree with by criticizing peoples efforts who you know little about.

Personally, I would like to see all disc golfers join the PDGA. Even those that can't volunteer their services enough to warrant posting their concerns on the message board without being told they need to volunteer.

You can argue this point as you wish. But it would be nice if you would do it without saying I don't do enough for the game. I believe I have earned my stripes. It is of no use for you to try and say differenty. I have no desire to post the actions which I have taken for the love of the game on this message board in order to prove the value of my opinions. My opinions stand on their own. They are welcome to be ignored or blasted. My main opinion is that you shouldn't be railing on peoples efforts or lack thereof on this message board. It's one thing to do it at your local level, with people you know. It's another to do it in a national forum with people that you know little about.

Stress the need for volunteerism all you want. But if you will cease your demeaning of peoples efforts, this board will be much less cluttered with arguments that have little to do with the topics.

<FONT SIZE="-1">enable.FILTER( text="Nick Kight" action="DELETE:ALL")</FONT>

No PPV for me!

Cant we all just get along?

Living in China and complaining about the PDGA, I wonder how close to the game you are? I think that it is great that you continue to support the org, but complaining about what the PDGA lacks is foolish.

I think that people do not view the PDGA as I do. The PDGA is a "PUPPET FIGURE". We are the PDGA. There is not going to be massive enforcement of the rules from the PDGA BOD, because they are not equally at every event. The PDGA is you, me, and the people that pay their dues. It is up to each of us to make a difference in the game, it is not up to the PDGA to make a difference.

To feel as though this organization is not "...my poiint is that the pdga does NOT seem to care too much about actively promoting the concept of rules enforcement. " (Sorry Sandalman, I think you put it out there and many others would agree, I choose not too, not picking on you) correct.

If they did not care about rules, there would be no rule book. They give us the tools, we have to build it. It takes the 5,000 members to each work on this to work, it takes a few people of breaking them and getting away with it to ruin opinions of where we have come from.

The PDGA is simply a front for our game. The faster that we realize that, the quicker we can introduce new people to the game. It is not the issue of rules, payouts, and swearing, it is an issue of common courtesy, understanding right and wrong and applying it. We really are the ambassadors of the game, we are in a minority by being members of the PDGA to begin with from an international number, then take a peek at how many people are not PDGA members in your area that play, then break it down to a smaller number of people that have time to read the threads here, I would be shocked if over 1000 people read this board, completely shocked, I would be even more shocked if of those 1000 500 were active members. This is a small little corner of the internet, not comprising of probably .0001% of all traffic. We complain because we have time to type our comments in here, and have the luxury of having access to the internet to do so.

Where am I going with this you ask, to take it back to the people that are in here to make a difference. Opinions do count, and ideas expressed may help, but until an action is done, it is really worthless. RW you may feel that you have earned your stripes so to speak; I for one have not, and feel as though very few have. It boils down to complacency if you feel you have given all you can to the game, and can complain about everything others do or ask, then I question it. I question everything though, because it should be questioned.

We make the difference. Your membership helps to support a game that is growing, why should you join? Because you like disc golf and you want to see the numbers grow. Beyond becoming a member, you should do what you can when you can, nothing more nothing less. Each individual contributor makes a difference. If it is giving an idea on better ways to keep score, so be it, if it is picking trash up after people have left so be it, if it is playing good because you love the game and do nothing else, that is fine as well, it is not what I like to see, but watching top performances always makes people want to improve so even the Whiney and Not-So-Whiney pros that do nothing really do help our game, and increase interest, and that is a good thing, even if they are not all good people.

You should join the PDGA because you like the sport. There really should be no other reason.

Jack

I'll stick with my previous post. If it demeans you then you are thinking too hard and need to relax.

I'm not worthy /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif


/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The way in which others see the game is also part of our responsibility, as someone mentioned above.
Here is a kind of funny story:

The city of North Augusta, SC planned to make a movie called "We've got our game face on"about all the recreational services they offer, including a variety of sports.
They asked for a female disc golfer to film the part of the movie for the Riverview course, so the club sent me. When I got there, they painted my entire face bright blue (a "frisbee") and wanted to spray paint my hair flourescent glo pink and spike it.
(I am a 30 year old librarian ok, it didn't really fit)
So I asked to see the script. It was ridiculous. They had me walking into a diner and saying "What up dawg", "I got my schwerve on",
"That rips", and other stupid things.
I told the director I was not going to say those things and asked why he wrote such ridiculous lines for the disc golfer.
He informed me that the person at the rec. center said disc golfers were of a "different breed" whatever that means.

i said no. I was not going to say anything that would make the sport I participated in seem silly or unprofessional. It was not appropriate to make me come off as a person from outer space for playing disc golf.

Well we compromised and the only trendy phrase I said was "I've been on fire lately".
The director was not happy with me at all but the Augusta DGA sure was glad I stood up for the sport when i told them the corny things they tried to get me to say!


As members (or nonmembers) we stand for disc golf and the perception others have for the game is largely based on our actions.

p.s. is "schwerve" a word anyone uses? He had it typed out like it was from webster's dictionary!

SAS, that is both sad and funny. /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Nick. When Keith says you don't listen, I believe it is said relative to your responses. He certainly meets your criteria.
randy posted this earlier today and it 100% true

I AM TALKING about your responses to PEOPLE not their posts..you respond to different posts that say the same thing very differently depending on who wrote it..you just don't get it and i guess no matter how many times randy or myself or jim or rhett point it out you still won't get that is is the posts on the thread that matter not who wrote them....
i know personally that myself,jim and rhett have done a TREMENDOUS amount of things to further the pdga growth and/or volunteered their time helping in other areas.....i don't know randy personally but i would believe what he says about it because I CAN SEPARATE POSTS FROM THE PEOPLE that wrote them....
there are several things that i disagree with rhett and jim and randy about and conversely there are several things THAT I AGREE WITH YOU about....because there is a HUGE difference between the person and the post about the topic in the thread
i hope you have taken the time to read this far and i hope that you will make an effort to look at things differently than you have in the past...that isn't really to much to ask or to hard to do........keith

jack, i'm sure not as close to the playing part of the game as i wish!

its one thing to write a rule book. its another to actively support following the rules.

according to Mark Atwood, who sounds like he has inside info the rest of us dont have, and also Bill Newman's recent post on the Heritage Activities thread, perhaps the pdga is ready, as an organizing body, to take a clear and strong position. the time is right, and i hope they do.

Very good point Sandalman. The PDGA is on the move. There is no denying the PDGA is moving in the direction that many of us want in a governing body. Recently, the PDGA has moved to bring definition to the amateur ranks and seems to be moving in the way of providing discipline for it's members.

I think we need to rally around these moves and show our support.

As always, looking forward to playing disc golf with you Pat!

ps...the PDGA is more than just us. There is a governing body. Some of us want to be governed. There seem to be others that want to retain their maverick rights to do as they please. And it's usually the ones that feel they deserve to do what they want. I look forward to the day where the governing body is able to provide clear structure for players and organizers alike.

I think the planners are to be commended for what seem to be great strides in the right direction.

I was eating my sweet and sour chicken and thought of the first time I remember meeting Sandalman. There were some of us ADGA club members doing some mulch spreading at Veterans park in Arlington. It was usually nasty work. The parks department seemed to think mulch was logs and used oil cans.

Anyway, we always took a break and cleared the fairways for casual players as they passed through. There was some guy I had never seen before (and I practically lived at the park) in the middle of his round. He asked what we were doing, stopped his play and joined in. We worked for a long time.

I have always respected him. From my experience in the sport, anybody that pitches in is a blessing. When it's an outsider who is passing through, it's a miracle.

To me...he will always be close to the sport. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Pat, I have no inside info on the direction of the PDGA other than as it applies to my situation. The reason that I'm not ranting about those specifics is because its being handled through the channels and by the people that should be handling it. Thus, I step away and let them do the things they were elected/appointed to do.

Isn't that a nice fit for this thread? Here's a player who had a problem and has faith that it is presently being handled appropriately by his representatives. If that's not a good reason for me to renew my membership, I don't know what is.

This is one of my favorite posts on this board. It might be a good time for it considering some of the stuff that's been posted in last couple of weeks. :cool:



...and this person is more important than that person...and that person is more important than this person...

All on a thread about why we join the PDGA. Well...perhaps there is another reason why it is not attractive to join the PDGA. It could be that prospective members are turned off by "volunteers" who have turned into "volunteer ogres". And everyone knows what I'm talking about. Most of us have been around disc golf organization on a local level enough to know that every once in a while, a volunteer begins losing sight of what volunteerism is and starts feeling like something is owed for the volunteer work. Respect. More consideration for their thoughts.

All of us know about being appreciative towards everyone that does the work. All of us know about the merit in the words and thoughts of those that take action.

Those that belittle the efforts of anyone in this sport, no matter how small, are the same people that belittle someone that puts in 20 hrs. a week to run a disc golf club. And those 20 hrs. a week are when there is nothing going on other than normal club functions. The reason they can do this, is because there is always someone more important on their logical ladder to which to point to. It is stupid and rediculous.

If you want to volunteer for something, shut-up already and volunteer. Do it because you like it. Nobody owes you anything.

Join the PDGA. Join it because you want to. And forget about the people in the PDGA that want to treat you like they are important. Use their efforts for your enjoyment and laugh at them. I don't need to tell you to be appreciative towards the volunteers. But when they start getting snotty with you, just use them and laugh.

Nice find, Lou. Sad because it's too true.

I donate a good amount of time locally and feel it's even more important at the local level to not become that volunteer ogre that Randy describes. It's a big turn off to your prospective volunteer base.

great observation, LOU!!

Drink your caffeinated beverage if you want to read this post!

I went to a leadership conference back in 2001 for the American Society of Training and Development (www.astd.org) and I took some notes at one of the conference sessions and wrote up something for our DSM disc golf club leaders. We've found it helpful to review over the years and there are some good hints on how not to become the volunteer ogre!!


Are You Burned Out? Getting People to Get Involved

Does your club have a small group of leaders who run your tournaments and your league? Has your club experienced the loss of a TD who ran your tournaments for years and now there is no one to take his or her place? The intent of sharing this information with you is to help you grow membership in your club, and to have more than just a core group of people in your club taking on the tasks to promote the sport of disc golf in your area. When you have a larger club, you have more people to tap to get involved in club activities.

Why Do People Join Organizations?
First we need to understand why people join organizations. People have different motivators for joining a group. Disc golf is competing with a multitude of other organizations. Why should people join your club? There are four key motivators for people to get involved:

(1) Loving the Sport and Wanting to Give Back. People love playing disc golf and want to give back to the disc golf community.
(2) Contribution to the Greater Good: People want to know if my joining the organization would make disc golf in my world a better activity. People want to see how they can make a difference. They need an outlet to help make things better.
(3) Belonging to a Community: People want a place to belong to, to build relationships, and to find a community who understands what they do. To get a community, you have to show up and be involved.
(4) Personal and Professional Development: People want to improve their skills or skill development.

Perspective is Everything:
Think back to the first time you ever decided to volunteer for your disc golf club. Why did you agree to help? What fears or concerns did you have? Leaders forget why people become first time volunteers, and what it feels like to be a first time volunteer. We forget what it is like to be somebody new to the organization.

We have to realize there are all kinds of people and the fear of rejection is a major reason why people don�t join or come to meetings. The biggest reason people leave organizations is because they come to a meeting or event, they stand or sit there, and nobody talks to them. They figure the organization has no social skills. Help your new members feel like they are part of your disc golf community and specifically invite them to volunteer for something. Give new members a sense of belonging to the group and make sure they walk out of the meetings pumped up.

Why Don�t Club Members Volunteer?:
There are many reasons disc golfers don�t volunteer. One fear is that volunteering is a black hole/time suck and this makes many afraid to step forward. Set up the volunteer experience to overcome the new volunteer�s fears. You need clear and explicit defined hours, and assigned descriptions of what to do. Don�t just ask people if they want to help, give them a specific role because people are afraid of mission creep. Tell them what they are and are not going to do. Other reasons people don�t volunteer are:

� They are not asked.
� They think it will take too much time.
� They think it is too difficult.
� They don�t know how.
� They think it is overwhelming.
� They have priorities in other organizations.
� It is not spelled out what is in it for them.
� They think they have to do it alone.
� The leadership is not welcoming.
� There is a conflict with the leadership team.
� There is no sense of tangible personal gain.

There are many excuses people give to not volunteer, and then there are the real reasons why they don�t. Drill down to find the real reason why they don�t want to volunteer.

What Doesn�t Work to Recruit Members?
1. Don�t use guilt to recruit new members by saying it�s your time to give. Have you ever heard club leaders say the club only works if we all give and some of us aren�t giving? Guilt doesn�t work. Some people may respond to guilt, but think back how you responded to your parents when they tried to lay the guilt on you. People don�t list guilt as the main reason they are volunteering. They like to volunteer because of the challenge, to explore issues, etc. Guilt does not work on outsiders to bring them in to a new role. When you point fingers, you are telling them they are on the outside of the group and still looking in. You are saying to them that you are outsiders and some of us give a lot and you give nothing.

2. Club leaders shouldn�t send messages they are overworked. They may say, �I need help, I�m overworked.� Then people will think it is not a positive thing to volunteer and they�ll be overworked too.

3. Don�t expect people to self-nominate. If they are not in the group, they probably won�t volunteer.

4. Sometimes there is a leader who owns volunteerism. Not one person should be in charge of getting volunteers. The entire club leadership must recruit for volunteers. Then the club is more successful.

Change the Word Volunteerism to �Involved�:
When most people think of the word volunteer, they think of Mother Theresa. They think volunteers are altruistic and that they give for the joy of giving. They think volunteers are willing to give up their time and are supposed to make sacrifices, that they only give and don�t receive. They think volunteers are not supposed to have their own agendas. Well, this type of volunteer who just feels that they want to give back to the community only make up 5% of any volunteer base. Most new members have an agenda and they need to know that it is okay to have that agenda. Make it okay for them to own their agenda. Ask the new member, �What do you want to get in return?� It�s okay for them to use involvement as a way to advance their agenda, as long as the agenda is not incompatible with the club goals and it creates win-win results to benefit the volunteer and the club.

One idea is to ban the word volunteer from your club. Come up with a term that makes sense to your club. One phrase that works well is �Get Involved�. Talk about involvement with the club. Another word is �Active.� Here are some phrases you can use to recruit members to help:

� �Let�s talk about how you can be active with the club.�
� �Here are some ways to get more active with the club...�
� �Would you be interested in gaining experience� or would you like to learn?�
� �Would you like to get plugged into an opportunity to get more involved?�

If you want to use the word volunteer, shape it with action words to get involved.

Ask Members to Get Involved:
Recruiting is a never-ending process. You have to recruit people to come to meetings, to get involved, and to take leadership positions. You have to prove to new people why they need to get involved. Explain to them what�s in it for them. Let them know what they get for being involved. Does the organization speak to them and does it meet their needs?

It is a skill to recruit new members to your club. Find out what hits their buttons. Find out what they want first and then tell them the benefits of joining your organization. Let them know what the successes are of the club.

Ways Club Leadership Enables Non-Involvement:
Unfortunately, club leadership often enables non-involvement for these reasons:

(1) They think it is too difficult to delegate. A response is it is just easier to do it myself then to say that it is my job is to grow a successor. You are not a success in your position if you aren�t grooming a successor(s) to take over your position. If leadership appears overworked, then people won�t want to join.

(2) It is too difficult for club leadership to manage a committee and to define roles. They may not know how to manage a committee. They may think it is too difficult to train someone and to trust them. There is the failure to ask for involvement.

(3) The leadership is a �Cult of Secrecy�. Leadership needs to be visible to members and publish meeting notes, committee reports and notes, and archive them. New members can then read them and know what is going on.

Tips and Tactics:

� Observe your club bulletin board. When you see new people hanging out and reading everything on it, get them involved to create a volunteer stream.
� Contact all new members and ask them why they joined in the first place. Get the big picture of why they joined and discuss how much time they have and how they would like to volunteer if there are available opportunities.
� Put up brochures and posters of the benefits of involvement (with quotes).
� Give exposure for active members. Acknowledge people when they do a good thing. You don�t have to have a member of the month, because you don�t want people to feel like it is a quota and they are competing against one another for being active.
� Be a high-energy leadership group with positive vibes. This attracts people. If leadership appears energized, it attracts people.
� Each meeting, have one or more people talk about their role and what they are doing. This gives new members a peek at what people are doing behind the scenes. It�s a quick way to introduce someone and find out what they are doing without making it sound like a sales pitch.
� Ask people what they would like to see more of in the club. Then say okay and ask them why not start a committee on that topic. Then let them know you�ll show them how to start the committee and mentor them.
� Ask what would make this club more attractive/useful/productive for you? Then ask would you like to do something about it?
� Say to new person, �I�m so excited! You wouldn�t believe the really cool project I�m involved in. Some really neat people are on the team. Do you want to join?�
� Ask them what they want to get out of the membership at the beginning. Find out how we can make sure they get what they want from this club. After six months or a year, ask them if they are getting what they wanted from the club. Ask what has happened or needs to happen for them to consider membership in the club worthwhile.

How to Market Your Membership Opportunities:
Hit the new members� hot buttons and answer their question, �What�s In It For Me?� What do you offer your membership? One size does not fit all members� expectations. Ask what task can a member perform that feels like a fit for them and that it is worth stepping up for. Tap your members� passions. Don�t assume you know what people want to do. Don�t assume that they are specialists in one area and that they want to do the same thing. They may want to expand their skills and try something new.

Instead of having volunteers, you can have taskateers. You can expand a new member�s skills by assigning a certain task, and then they can learn in increments and gradually take on more responsibilities.

Remember to close the sale. You have to talk to new members before your meetings and ask them to take the chance and come to a meeting. If nobody asks a person to join, then the person could be thinking that maybe they are not a good enough person to join.

Challenge people who say they have no time to join the club. You have to make them an offer that hits their hot buttons. Tell them you will help them contribute, to be active in the group, and to develop. Leadership in your club needs to be on a mission to make people belong. Leadership in the club needs to serve their members and make them feel they are an important part of the team.

Good Ideas Gone Bad:
Here are some good ideas gone bad:

(1) Bribes and one size fits all gifts do not work to recruit volunteers. You may use gifts to increase the energy level of volunteers, but it won�t motivate most folks.
(2) Volunteer of the year contest makes people compete against each other.
(3) Recognition ceremonies and special events aren�t very effective. Plaques don�t really do anything for most people.

The vast majority of people would rather just have a party!

Secret Weapons to Help Recruit:
There are two secret weapons to use for leaders to help recruit new members: caring and fun. New members need to be more than names on a roster. Does your club leadership care about new members? Do you have fun at meetings? Did the general membership have a good time? Meetings are for members to learn, to get members� needs met, and to have fun. Members stay in the group because of caring and it is a fun group that gives value. Increase the fun activity level of the club, and it is easier to get more people involved.

Generate Your Own Ideas:
Generate ideas with your club to recruit, reward, and grow volunteers. So they move up higher and higher in the organization and take on more responsibilities. Everything in the club will continue to function fine if somebody leaves and the successor or successors are groomed to fill in. Tap into the energy of the new members right away and capture it in the beginning.

Action-Planning:
Identify one idea that you have just read that can enhance member involvement for you and your leadership team:

� What is it?
� Who needs to implement it or do something different?
� When does it need to happen?

Cliff notes? :D

� Say to new person, �I�m so excited! You wouldn�t believe the really cool project I�m involved in. Some really neat people are on the team. Do you want to join?�

Is it just me, or is it every time you hear this line and you go to the meeting, it turns out to be AmWay? :D

� Say to new person, �I�m so excited! You wouldn�t believe the really cool project I�m involved in. Some really neat people are on the team. Do you want to join?�

Is it just me, or is it every time you hear this line and you go to the meeting, it turns out to be AmWay? :D


...and you go to the meeting and about 10 seconds before the slide-show/movie ends you hear about 20 cinnamon breathspray shots being shot...and as the lights go up you have 3-4 people 'in your face' to rev you up...!...and all you can think is how much you now hate cinnamon!! :mad:

The above story is TRUE!! :mad:/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

..... and then you see the presenter that was in your face telling you that he is rich beyond belief, get into a beat up 1989 Chrysler Lebaron coupe. He then calls you five times a day and stalks you at your employment for the next 6 weeks. The agony does not stop until you get a restraining order.

I stupidly got talked into a multi-level marketing sceme when I was 18. It was a good lesson to learn early in life. There seems to be alot of MLM's in Utah and I'm glad I never have to think about doing it again.

...& if you're going to buy something...why not buy it from yourself!!! :mad:

The horror...the horror...............

...and where else can you get this kind of entertainment just as a side for your measely $55.00 annual fee? Even cheaper for the ams!!!