I know I've posted this thread before but in light of a couple of other DISCussions, I thought there might be some additional responses. I think there are going to very very different opinions on these.
I listed some of the applicable rules at the bottom.
Please reply with answers to each of the 12 if you can.
Where should the moved disc be played from (original lie, where it comes to rest (again) or some other lie) when an at rest disc is moved...
<U>Ground</U>
1) while on the ground by the wind
2) while on the ground by an in-flight disc (could 've been knocked OB)
<U>DROT - to IN</U>
3) from DROT of the basket to IN by the wind before the player marks it
4) from DROT of the basket to IN by another disc before the player marks it (player should have but didn't mark it)
<U>DROT - to OUT</U>
5) from DROT of the basket to down the hill and 50' away by the wind before the player gets to mark it
6) from DROT of the basket to down the hill and 50' away by a disc before the player gets to mark it
<U>Hanging on side</U>
7) from hanging on the side of the basket (at rest) to down on the ground by the wind
8) from hanging on the side of the basket (at rest) and down on the ground by another disc
<U>Above The Playing Surface</U>
9) from > 2 meters to the ground by a disc (might have rolled OB).
10) from > 2 meters to the ground by the wind
(might have rolled OB).
<U>In Basket</U>
11) from inside the basket out to the ground by the wind
12) from inside the basket out to the ground by another disc.
And please, let's not get into a discussion here on whether a DROT should count or not.
Feel free to ellaborate on why (applicable rule,...)
Thanks for your input.
Applicable rules:
803.06 Interference:
A....(not applicable here)
B. If a disc at rest is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a mini marker disc is moved, the mini marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.
C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.
Holed-Out: A term used to signify completion of a hole. A player has "holed-out" after removing his or her at rest disc from the chains or entrapment area of a disc entrapment device or after successfully striking the marked area of an object target.
-Scott
You really do have some time on your hands, don't you! I pass the DGRZ baton to you for the time being.
Bill
2bizy2baDGRZ
This thread was written a while ago and all I did was cut and paste it. But, yeah, during the working hours, I can spend 'a little' extra time out here these days (shhh).
Anyway, use this below format to reply with your opinions (you don't have to post reasons).
Cut and paste the below form and reply with...
OL...for Original Lie
R....for where it comes to rest after it was moved
O....for other and explain a little
1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
12)
Can I make it this easier? Come on.
-Scott
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Okay Scott, I�ve spent some time thinking on this and I can�t help but contradict myself along the way.</FONT>
Ground
1) while on the ground by the wind
Disc is moved by natural forces. Play disc where it eventually comes to rest.
2) while on the ground by an in-flight disc (could 've been knocked OB)
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">When I first thought about this I considered rule 803.06B. I felt like the disc should be replaced to its original location (That�s the way it would be done in ball golf). However, after reading the rules committee ruling �Knocked down disc� I tend to question what the intent was on a disc being moved. I take it that the ruling is dealing with purposefully moved discs. A competitively thrown disc moving a disc at rest is not purposeful, therefore it is no different than a disc moved by the wind. I know it�s a different scenario but the ruling on �Knocked down disc� states:
A disc being hit by another disc is no different than a disc being blown down by a gust of wind.
How is a disc at rest on the ground any different?</FONT>
DROT - to IN
3) from DROT of the basket to IN by the wind before the player marks it
4) from DROT of the basket to IN by another disc before the player marks it (player should have but didn't mark it)
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Using the same logic as above I would consider both cases as �in�.
If I�m shooting at a basket with DROT can I request that the disc be marked before I putt?</FONT>
DROT - to OUT
5) from DROT of the basket to down the hill and 50' away by the wind before the player gets to mark it
6) from DROT of the basket to down the hill and 50' away by a disc before the player gets to mark it
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Play the disc where it comes to rest 50� away in both cases.</FONT>
Hanging on side
7) from hanging on the side of the basket (at rest) to down on the ground by the wind
8) from hanging on the side of the basket (at rest) and down on the ground by another disc
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">The player should have holed out. It�s a stupid mistake and the player just lost a stroke on either case.</FONT>
Above The Playing Surface
9) from > 2 meters to the ground by a disc (might have rolled OB).
10) from > 2 meters to the ground by the wind
(might have rolled OB).
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Disc is played where it comes to rest.</FONT>
In Basket
11) from inside the basket out to the ground by the wind
12) from inside the basket out to the ground by another disc.
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Again the player should have holed out. Play the disc where it comes to rest.
On all the cases where a disc is moved by another disc I tend to want to move the disc back to its original location, however that doesn�t seem consistent with previous decisions.</FONT>
rhett
Sep 15 2000, 05:55 PM
I think you have to consider RULE: 803.07 LIE ABOVE THE PLAYING SURFACE along with the interference rule. Since the basket is an "object on the playing surface" a DROT must be considered the same as "stuck in a tree". My main question is that all discussions of being struck by competitively thrown discs and moved by wind seem to be in conjunction with the 2-meter penalty. If the wind or thrown disc knock it down from any height, I guess you play it where it stops rolling...including as holed out.
Since the rules specifically state that the thrower must remove the disc from the basket to hole out, being knocked out of the basket by a thrown disc means you take it where it lies. This also fits in nicely with it being a disc above the playing surface.
An at rest disc on the playing surface, however, is not the same thing. It's the distinction of above or on the playing surface that should decide the call. If it's on the ground, it should be replaced. If it's above the surface, you get it where it stops. If a disc at rest on the surface is struck by a thrown disc, it makes sense to replace it. The case of the wind moving an at rest disc is the only one that gives me pause, but if we consider the disc in the water rule where it's considered to have stopped when only the action of the waves is what's moving it and that we mark it OB at that point, we can satisfactorily resolve this issue and replace the at rest disc here too. And still feel consistent.
Of course, this all IMNSHO...
This was originally in "etiquette on holing out", then in "gray areas" but now it looks like a "disc at rest" question to me. What happens if you're away, make your putt, and it hangs in the chains. The next putter asks you to leave it (rather than ruin his concentration by walking to the hole), and his putt knocks your disc out? (This has happened to me)
RULE: 803.12
HOLE OUT
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed by the thrower.
It seems to me that you haven't holed out until you've removed your disc from the basket, so you lose a stroke. I know that there are rules about interference from "competitively thrown discs", but the hole-out rule seems very unambiguous, and I'm not sure that interference applies. I always remove mine, unless it's laying flat in the basket, and then it's the other player taking a risk that his shot won't trampoline off mine. If it's hanging in the chains, I'm going to get it before something happens that I have no control over.
Rhett and Kyle seem to agree with me, that if another disc knocks yours out, you lose a stroke (correct me if I misinterpreted your posts). Jim and Scott feel that once it's in, it's in. If that is true, why does 803.12-b have that last sentence in it?
I guess the real question is "what was the intent of the rule committee"? If you take 803.12-b literally, the thrower must remove the disc before it counts as holed out. If you take 803.06-b literally, then a competitively thrown disc can move the at-rest disc, and it can be replaced in its original position before being removed by the thrower. If 803.06-b is the prevailing rule, the last sentence in 803.12-b can be eliminated, as it's superfluous if the disc can be moved and replaced before being removed by the thrower. I would prefer Scott and Jim's reading of this, because it would speed up play if no one felt a need to walk up to the basket and remove his disc to avoid an extra stroke, but I feel that the last sentence in 803.12-b is in there for a reason. Does anyone know what it is?
Well now Byron, since you mentioned it- and it is very clear in 803.12's last sentance- what happens if someone else removes the disc instead of the thrower?...it may be picky, but rules is rules, right?
1) OL
2) OL
3) R
4) OL
5) R
6) OL
7) R
8) R
9) OL
10) R
11) R
12) R
I'd be doubly indebted to you Scott, if you put these results into a database and post the statistics. DGRZ rulz!
Well now, Rook, I would guess that would be interference, and the disc would be replaced until its proper owner laid his/her hand on it. That scenario kinda points out my wonderings about this rule- what was the intent?
rhett
Sep 16 2000, 07:02 PM
I still say you have to consider the DROT a disc above the playing surface and play it by those interpretations.
rhett
Sep 16 2000, 07:04 PM
Oops. You all know I meant "disc in the chains or basket" instead of DROT, right? ;-)
Nice input.
I ramble a bit here. Sorry.
Kyle, you obviously thought it out and by your logic, I would agree that ANY disc that was moved by natural forces OR a competitively thrown disc should be played from where it comes to rest.
However, I'm am not sure about '. A competitively thrown disc moving a disc at rest is not purposeful (that's fine), therefore it is no different than a disc moved by the wind. I don't necessarily agree with that. Just because a competitively thrown disc moving an disc at rest is not a purposeful act that the moved disc should be played like the wind moved it. Sorry to nitpick your words but you base all your answers on that 'therefore'.
You may be right, I'm not saying you are not, but you may be wrong on that too. That is, I think there may be a difference between a competitively thrown disc moving an at rest disc on the playing surface than an at rest disc in a 'lie above the playing surface'. The 'Knocked Down' interpretation clarifies that a competitively thrown disc knocking an at rest disc out of a tree requires that the knocked down disc be played from where it comes to rest BECAUSE it is impossible to tell if the wind knocked it down or a squirrel shook the branch or maybe it would have come down on its own before the player reached it .... So the benefit of doubt is given to the thrower and the next lie is played from where the moved disc comes to rest. Does THAT problem exist when a competitively thrown disc hits/moves an rest disc that is not in a 'lie above the playing surface'? If it is, then maybe 803.06B needs to be more specific. But it currently is not and THAT is why I think an at rest disc that is moved by other than natural forces should be replaced to its original location (except for out of a lie above the playing surface).
The confusion on interpreting 803.06B (~'replace an at rest disc') stems from whether or not it matters if the disc was moved by a competitively thrown disc. Because the rule does not specify, I interpret the rule to mean an at rest disc for any purpose should be replaced to its original location EXCEPT for when stated otherwise (such as Disc Knocked Down post - and I'll say by natural forces such as wind but that is actually not stated anywhere))
The bottom line is it looks like the rule on how to play a disc not in a 'lie above the playing surface' moved by a competitively thrown disc , is being interpreted in more than one way.
B. If a disc at rest is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, ...
Interpretation 1: replace an at rest disc, moved by any force, back to its original location
Interpretation 2: replace an at rest disc, moved by unnatural forces only, back to its original location
Interpretation 3: replace an at rest disc, moved by another player, back to its original location
Interpretation 4: replace an at rest disc, moved by another player or another player's competitively thrown disc, back to its original location. An at rest disc in a lie above the playing surface shall be played in accordance with rule nnnn.nn (which will say something to reflect: It's a lucky break for the golfer whose shot was originally stuck in the tree! He gets to play his disc where it now lies.
I currently play by Interpretation 4. I think Kyle will use Interpretation 3.
In fact, here is the way I would currently decide (note the consistency):
Ground
1) while on the ground by the wind
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">R - where it comes to rest</FONT>
2) while on the ground by an in-flight disc (could 've been knocked OB)
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">OL - original lie</FONT>
DROT - to IN
3) from DROT of the basket to IN by the wind before the player marks it
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">R - where it comes to rest</FONT>
4) from DROT of the basket to IN by another disc before the player marks it (player should have but didn't mark it)
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">OL - original lie</FONT>
DROT - to OUT
5) from DROT of the basket to down the hill and 50' away by the wind before the player gets to mark it
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">R - where it comes to rest</FONT>
6) from DROT of the basket to down the hill and 50' away by a disc before the player gets to mark it
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">OL - original lie</FONT>
Hanging on side
7) from hanging on the side of the basket (at rest) to down on the ground by the wind
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">R - where it comes to rest</FONT>
8) from hanging on the side of the basket (at rest) and down on the ground by another disc
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">OL - original lie</FONT>
Above The Playing Surface
9) from > 2 meters to the ground by a disc (might have rolled OB).
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">R - where it comes to rest</FONT>
10) from > 2 meters to the ground by the wind
(might have rolled OB).
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">R - where it comes to rest</FONT>
In Basket
11) from inside the basket out to the ground by the wind
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">R - where it comes to rest - but I heard differently</FONT>
12) from inside the basket out to the ground by another disc.
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">OL - original lie</FONT>
Sorry for the ramblings here. I know I was all over the place here but I wrote this in pieces throughout the day when I had a moment or two.
-Scott
I have only seen #9 and #10 in my 12 years of golfing in the NW.
At this time, I think the easiest/best rule to have in general is that you play your disc where it lies as you walk up to the disc and mark it with a mini.
I think the only exception should be if somebody (competitor, gallery, etc.) or some animal (dog, bear, squirrel, eagle), actually picks up and moves the disc, or kicks it around, etc. Then the group agrees to an original lie location.
For all the rollaways, blowaways, washaways, etc., well, that's unfortunate that the golfer has to play his disc at the new crappy lie, but golf is all about handling unfair situations. I suppose a TD can make a local rule during a tournament, if an unfair situation routinely comes up. -- kurt from Seattle.
Ground
1) while on the ground by the wind
2) while on the ground by an in-flight disc (could 've been knocked OB)
In both cases I say anything that happens naturally ie. wind , incoming disc, car hitting it and rolling it back in bounds (has happened to me) you play it where it rests. Cuz in all actuality your disc has not come to rest until you get there and mark it.
DROT - to IN
3) from DROT of the basket to IN by the wind before the player marks it
4) from DROT of the basket to IN by another disc before the player marks it (player should have but didn't mark it)
Both where it rests.. of course once u get into the putting area your disc should be marked.
DROT - to OUT
5) from DROT of the basket to down the hill and 50' away by the wind before the player gets to mark it
6) from DROT of the basket to down the hill and 50' away by a disc before the player gets to mark it
Once again disc is not at rest till u mark it. (btw this is just my opinion about the disc not at rest till u mark it) But could easily clear up any of these questions if it was a rule.
Hanging on side
7) from hanging on the side of the basket (at rest) to down on the ground by the wind
8) from hanging on the side of the basket (at rest) and down on the ground by another disc
If your disc is hanging on the basket you should haul [*****] and hole out before it falls. thats what i think. Play it where it lies.
Above The Playing Surface
9) from > 2 meters to the ground by a disc (might have rolled OB).
10) from > 2 meters to the ground by the wind
(might have rolled OB).
Where it comes to rest.
In Basket
11) from inside the basket out to the ground by the wind
12) from inside the basket out to the ground by another disc.
Any shot you make you should get out of the basket. This includes aces. If you dont clean it up then your just asking for a lil misfortune. Play it where it lies.
I would also like to see a combined result of the "poll" on this one. As I would like to see a Disc is at rest when the player marks it rule. This would work even if the disc is in a tree. Given some players may wait at a tree to see if it will come down but i believe that the 3 minutes lost disc rule would be in effect to stop that from happening. What do you guys think?
I am trying to understand the rules and from the discussions, if you ace a hole and your disc stays in the chains and the next player throws and ace and knocks your disc out, you no longer threw an ace. Is this correct??
Well, it depends on your interpretation of
803.06 Interference:
A. A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Players should not stand or leave their equipment where interference with the flight or path of a disc could easily occur. The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw.
B. If a disc at rest is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a mini marker disc is moved, the mini marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.
Interpretation 1: B. above only refers to discs at rest moved by spectators, animas, etc and not competitively thrown discs
Interpretation 2: B. above refers to discs at rest moved by spectators, animas, AND competitively thrown discs.
If you interpret 803.06B to include a competitively thrown disc, then the ace counts, otherwise it does not.
One of the parts of the Interference rule that we haven't spoke about yet is the last sentence in A. Because that sentence indirectly addresses a a disc at rest being in the way of another players throw, and the sentence immediately following that addresses an at rest disc being moved, I believe 803.06B includes competitively thrown discs (among other reasons). But I admit that I am not sure.
Obviously 'put on the list' of Gray Rules.
-Scott
RE: Ace counting if it's bonked out of the basket. As far as I'm concerned, when you ace a hole or make a putt, and you see the disc at rest, the hole is over. Whatever happens to the disc afterwords is irrelevant. -- kurt from Seattle
Well Kurt, you are incorrect according to PDGA rules.
803.12B says (among other things):
The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed by the thrower.
Therefore, if it's at rest in the basket, and somehow gets brought back out by the wind or an earthquake before the player retrieves it, he has not holed out. The only question is, as Scott has pointed out, whether or not a disc that is knocked out by another player unintentionally gets to be replaced under the rules of interference.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The official answers from a member of the rules committee is in and you all may want to sit down for this one!!!!!
803.06B . If a disc at rest is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location...
APPLIES TO ALL 12 ABOVE except for 9 and 10. That is a disc moved by the wind, a competitively thrown disc, a spectator,.....BY -ANY- THING, the at rest disc is returned to its original location as long as the disc was not in a lie above the playing surface (and the majority of the group agrees the disc was at rest) !!!
So, a player drives to the top of a snow covered hill and as the group approaches the disc, the wind gusts or the movement of the players in the snow... cause the at rest disc to slide 150' to the bottom of the hill. We previously DISCussed this and most if not all thought the disc should be played from where it comes to rest after the slide. But as long as the majority of the group agreed the disc was at rest (which may or may not be a difficult call), the disc that slide down the hill for whatever reason is played from its original location at the top of the hill!!!
I mean, why would we think any differently. 803.06B doesn't say anything about 'except if the wind blew or natural forces....' so why would we (including myself) assume the wind was an exception?
So review the 12 Q's and KNOW if your disc was at rest on/in the basket or on the top of the hill etc etc, and it was subsequently moved (for better or worse), the disc is replaced to its original location. The exception is pointed out in 'Knocked DOwn Disc' at http://pdga.com/disc_above_ground.phtml
Does that surprise anybody? I was.
-Scott
Very surprised! Great thread Scott, thanks!
rhett
Sep 21 2000, 05:21 PM
Hummph. So the rules committee is ruling that a DROT is not a disc above the playing surface? The way I see it, we have just declared that a disc must be above two meters to be "above the playing surface". I don't like it. What about a disc that is 1 meter above the playing surface and gets whacked by a competitively thrown disc? Do we then take a consensus on "about where" the disc was in that low hanging branch and mark below that spot? Do we now have the situation where a disc stuck 1.9 meters high is played differently than a disc stuck 2.1 meters high? I personally think that these discs should BE PLAYED exactly the same, but that the penalty status should be different.
A quick example: a disc stuck 5 meters high is possibly hit by a competitively thrown disc and falls from the tree. It then either sticks or rolls away or whatever. We play it where it comes to rest because no one really knows if it was falling on its own or if the thrown disc actually hit it.
Now substitute a disc stuck 1 meter high. No one knows if it was falling anyway or if the thrown disc hit it. Everything is the same yet we now play it differently.
I strongly disagree. I think that a disc above the playing surface is a disc above the playing surface. If it is less than 2 meters high then you don't get a penalty, but it is still above the playing surface.
Yes, I'm quite surprised.
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">I mean, why would we think any differently. 803.06B doesn't say anything about 'except if the wind blew or natural forces....' so why would we (including myself) assume the wind was an exception? </FONT>
Probably a rhetorical question, but...
...because the Title of rule 803.06 is interference which seems to imply human (or possibly animal) forces interfering with the game. In my mind, the wind is natural, and therefore part of the game, therefore can't cause interference.
Rhett, I agree with what you're saying.
It seems to me that they are using the benefit of the doubt rule.
To take that to the extreme, try this scenario:
A disc is stuck in the tree, and we're not sure if it's above 2m or not. It get knocked down possibly by a competitvely thrown disc, or possibly the wind, then it hits and rolls OB. Where do we mark it?
Clearly (hah!) we must give the player the benefit of the doubt, and assume it was less then 2M up, so it gets returned to it's spot with no penalty.
Eventhough I absolutely KNEW of all the angles to address, the less-than-2-meters/over-2- meters-what-to-do? angle would be the one brought up first (and I knew it would be you too Rhett!). I don't mean that in a negative way, I just say that because it explains why I actually looked for a response back for that ahead of time.
Here is the inquiry and the repsonse:
> PS You're not going to like this but... Some players will no doubt claim
> that a disc in/on the basket IS a LAG and therefore should be played
> as such (R instead of OL).
"...We've already considered that. Exactly where are "LAGs" that are on the basket, played? That's right, they are marked directly beneath. So the OL is amazingly similar to R (...) I think that most players would agree, that a LAG on a basket could never be construed as being above 2 meters...thus the slight difference from other (non-basket oriented) LAGs. The committee tried to take the simplest of paths in both cases, while giving the players the benefit of the doubt (was that knocked down disc above 2 meters or not?) while sticking with the very premise of golf...play it where it lies."
I will just play ANY at rest moved disc that was in a 'Lie Above the Ground' (regardless if less than or greater than two meters) where that disc comes to rest (as per 'Knocked Down Disc') EXCEPT if the LAG is on the basket. THAT is the way I interpret the rules committee's interpretation.
-Scott
What I am surprised about is what Jim said and for the same reason (thanks for pin pointing that Jim). If the wind blows your at rest disc, the player plays from where the original lie was even if the disc is blown...
- off a hill and away or toward the basket
- from on top of the basket to anywhere including IN
- from wedged inside the side if the basket to out!!
etc etc
Of course the issue becomes whether or not the group can reach a majority decision saying the disc was at rest or not but, still, I am surprised.
-Scott
The rule seems obvious to me, but the interpretation of it seems REAL gray.
RULE: 803.12
HOLE OUT
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within
one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. THE DISC MUST ALSO REMAIN WITHIN THE CHAINS OR ENTRAPMENT SECTIONS UNTIL REMOVED BY THE THROWER.
(Below is an excerpt from Scott's post about the Rules Committee member's opinion...)
803.06B . If a disc at rest is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location...
"APPLIES TO ALL 12 ABOVE except for 9 and 10.(I'm referring to 11 and 12, BW) That is a disc moved by the wind, a competitively thrown disc, a spectator,.....BY -ANY- THING,
the at rest disc is returned to its original location as long as the disc was not in a lie above the playing surface (and the majority of the group agrees the disc was at rest) !!! "
(This is Byron talking) I would guess that the last sentence of 803.12B is now irrelevant, and should be removed, or replaced by some other verbiage that takes replacement of the disc into account. Since this has happened to me, I would really like to have a firm idea of what should happen.
One scenario-(hasn't happened to me- yet) On a hole that cannot be seen from the tee, the first thrower hears chains, and Bubba, who's on an adjacent hole that can see the basket, shouts "Nice Ace". Everyone else throws, and when the group gets to the basket, there's no plastic in it, but lots of discs around it. Whazzup? If someone outside the group says the disc was at rest in the basket, does the ace count?
I'm thinking that the original intent of the rules committee in adding that last sentence to 803.12b was to address just such an occasion, because the only way to be absolutely sure that the disc is in is for the player to physically remove it. This uncertainty was a BIG problem back in the object course days, because from any distance, it's tough to tell if you hit the target or not. I've seen several fights about this- "I nicked it!" "Naw, you weren't even close from my angle!" The advent of pole holes eliminated a lot of the uncertainty about holing out, but not all of it. Having to remove the disc before holing out eliminates any doubt about the status of the disc, and should be the rule IMHO. What if the majority of the group agrees that the disc was at rest, based on a third-party statement? (Nobody in the group actually saw anything?) Should an ace be decided because the majority feels that "Bubba said it was in, and he don't lie?" Is there any rule about what information the majority can use to form their opinion? Do they have to actually witness the event? In my experience, it would be unusual for a majority of the group (in a foursome, that's everyone except the thrower) to even be paying attention at the pivotal moment (they're wiping discs, lighting a smoke, picking their noses, taking a drink, talking to Jah, etc.) Even if they were paying attention, they can't see the hole, so why would their opinion carry any weight?
We talked about a similar scenerio before and found that if the majority of the group makes a decision based on an opinion or statement from someone outside of the group, then the group has a majority decision.
So, if the group decides the disc was IN the basket based on Bubba's opinion, then the player should have his or her '...disc... replaced as close as possible to its original location' (which is IN the basket.
That's how I would play the above scenerio.
Maybe the player should go down and remove his or her disc out of the basket with someone else from the group witnessing it before anybody else throws??? The next thrower certainly has the right to request that. And the acer has the right to hole out.
-Scott
So the group's decision stands, regardless of whether they know anything about the issue at hand or not- kinda sounds like the OJ trial. I can live with that. I still think you didn't hole out until you removed the disc from the basket, without replacing it after some unfortunate incident. That's what the rulebook says, that's the way we should play it. The Acer doesn't just have a right, he has an obligation to remove the disc.
rhett
May 06 2005, 04:43 PM
I can't find the original post!