A discussion with a friend prompted this thread.

Top 3 Most difficult DG courses you have played:

1)Rennisance Park(Charlotte, NC)-Had a great opportunity to play it after Points Bonanza
2)Buckhorn(Raleigh, NC)
3)Zebulon(Zebulon, NC)

3 Easiests courses:

1)Kentwood Park(Raleigh, NC)
2)Cornwallis Park(Durham, NC)
3)Toisnot Park(Wilson, NC)

I am sure there are much harder courses that the ones I mentioned, but I haven't done much traveling to play the courses in NC. I wanna get a little better before I try to play Castle Hayne and others.

The 2 hardest I've played are Winthrope Gold course and the Ozark Mountian course. They both score around the same (upper 60's for 18 holes)

statistically speaking, the "hardest" of the 4 Warwick, NY layouts (Blue tees to Blue Baskets) is regularly among the "hardest" courses if you define "hardest" as average score relative to a Par of 54. (I'm sure Chuck Kennedy or Jason Haas will set me straight as far as the proper terminology is concerned here. I don't know enough about SSA or WCP issues). This layout is a Pro Par 68. At our PDGA events my guess is that the scoring average for Pros and Masters is somewhere right around 68. The course record is a 56 shot by Brian Schweberger, and it was a smoking hot round. There have only been a handful of rounds under 60. I'd imagine this thread will have a few posts that addresses the notion of "hardest"........

I thought that there was some place at www.pdga.com (http://www.pdga.com) where you could access the WCPs of all courses... Anyone know where that is?

(And I'm not talking about the 2000 Adobe Acrobat File with Course Ratings...)

Without that I'd say in our Region for difficulty it would be:
3 Hardest
1) Patapsco Longs
2) Warwick Longs
3) Kennett Square Silly Billy Longs
3 Easiest
1) Sedgley Blues
2) Rutgers Shorts
4) Calvert Shorts

All of these are very well maintained and enjoyable courses to play.

My favorite top 3 Courses in our Region are:
1) Brandywine
2) Prompton Dam
3) Tinicum

The top 3 courses I love to hate in our Region are: (Baseball bat repeatedly to the back of the skull courses)
1) Cape Henlopen
2) Rockburn
3) Jordon Creek

CIRCLE R2 SAN SABA, TX

How about that original Circle R on Pleasure Island? That was pretty tough.

I wish I had been into Discgolf, when worlds was on P.I.

I hear the temp courses, were really sweet....

not that the permanent one, inst.....

Here are the top ones as of January and when the scores were thrown. I'm sure Renny will make this list once we get results after the latest course revisions. It was 59.6 prior to the changes. MADC takes honors with 5 in the top 10. Looks like not too many contenders out west.

<TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD>Course Name </TD><TD>Event</TD><TD>Length</TD><TD>SSA </TD></TR><TR><TD>Winthrop Gold</TD><TD>2002 USDGC</TD><TD>10028</TD><TD>69.0 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Ozark Mountain</TD><TD>2000 Ozark Open</TD><TD>8874</TD><TD>67.5 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Silver Creek East</TD><TD>2000 CO Champ</TD><TD>10707</TD><TD>67.3 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Warwick Blue-Blue</TD><TD>2002 NYDGC</TD><TD>8805</TD><TD>64.4 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Patapsco Long-C</TD><TD>Patapsco Picnic 2002 R1</TD><TD>9236</TD><TD>64.1 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Knob Hill</TD><TD>2002 Pittsburgh Flying Disc</TD><TD>8039</TD><TD>64.0 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Woodshed</TD><TD>2000 W VA Open</TD><TD>8074</TD><TD>63.7 </TD></TR><TR><TD>River Park</TD><TD>2002 Tumbleweed Open R2</TD><TD>6175</TD><TD>61.8 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Seneca Creek Red-C</TD><TD>2002 Seneca Soiree</TD><TD>7398</TD><TD>60.7 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Sioux Passage</TD><TD>2002 St. Louis Classic</TD><TD>9131</TD><TD>60.3 </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>

Chuckles,
Just wanted know what happen to the last 4 Ozark tourney results? Why arent the ratings listed anywhere?
Isnt idlewilde up there, I ve heard so much about it.
By the way, there is not one artificial OB on Ozark, only creeks and ponds and the lay of the land!(The way it should be)
If I put 1/2 as many ropes on this course as winthrope, players wouldnt break 90!

Nice!! I got the top 2, now I guess I have to go out and play silver creek and warwick.

67.5 was the average of three Ozark events with SSAs of 67.9, 67.2 and 67.4 from 2000 thru 2002.

I don't think we have a sanctioned Idlewild event in the files yet but I expect it to make the top 10.

You can get the course stats for many events now by going to the tournament listing link on the PDGA front page. Click on a tournament. If there are course stats, there will be a link at the top of that page.

Idlewild should have a rating next time around. Results from the 2003 Bluegrass Open from this past year were from my understanding turned in a bit late. This would represent the first sanctioned tournament on the course since the inception of the ratings.

I am sure that it will break into the Top 10. No one broke 60 during the tournament.

The MADC considers the Woodshed a MADC course, however it does not consider itself MADC.

<FONT COLOR="GRAY"><FONT SIZE="-2">yet</FONT></FONT>

is there somewhere we can see the ratings for all the courses?

Dave McCormack,

Can you send me an email ([email protected])

I need to send you something but I don't have your email address.

Kirk

I bet Rivendell Farm in Louisiana, if still in existence, would have made that top 10 list.

Buckhorn and Zebulon in NC are fantastic courses but are nowhere near the challenge of the other courses listed above. I shot a 60 my first time ever through at Buckhorn from the Pro blue tees and I'm not that good a golfer at all. 1000 rated golfers post scores in the high 60's at the Woodshed, Patapsco Long-C, Warwick Blue-Blue, Seneca Red-C, etc.

Theo is working on a page for PDGA.com that brings together all of the info pertaining to ratings in one place. Also, at some point, the SSA data will be connected to the Course Directory listings. However, it's not clear how to handle temp courses for that process. For now, go to the tournament listings to get at course stats as described above.

Chuck, the discussion was about the "hardest" courses, not the highest SSA. I can make a course with an SSA of 90, but it might not be "hard".

But, you're right, the top SSAs are "hardest" relative to, ummmmm, a par of 54. Or to a score of 0; that is, they are the "hardest" to shoot a low score on. Both of which are pretty meaningless to me when I think of what "hardest" means.

A much more interesting list, to me, would be the courses with the SSAs closest to the Climo/Dunipace/Houck definition of par (see other threads) for that course.

You mean the Climo/Dunipace/Houck opinion of par...

Hardest might be defined as SSA per 1000 feet which relates primarily to foliage density. It doesn't tell whether the foliage positioning is "fair". If so, then River Park would be the hardest in that list if the footage is accurate. I'm not familiar with that course but I would bet the hardest is more likely Ozark on the true SSA per 1000 ft rating.

And, to keep on thread, I've played all in the top 10 but Ozark, Silver Creek and River Park. Plus, I'm off to the Woodshed for the first time in August. Renny has to now be in the top 10 but haven't played the new holes. And, I helped with the Idlewild design in 1998 but have yet to play it since it went in.

OK people , just answer the original thread. " What are the 3 hardest &amp; 3 easiset courses you have played?" For me so far:
Hardest:
(1) Buckhorn, Raliegh, NC: Only played 3 times and never w/ fresh legs, very demanding.
(2) Castle Hayne, Wilmington, NC: Home course, long but fair, can be very frustrationg if your timing is off.
(3) Renny, Charlotte: only played once, kicked my arse

Easiest:
(1) Richlands, NC: Wide Open, only tough when the wind is blowing hard.
(2) Kentwood, Raliegh: Short &amp; mostly open, good beginner course.
(3) O.T. Sloan, Sanford, NC: Short but tight, lotsa deuce chances.

What's great about all of the courses in the MADC on that list is that I've played is that the experience is much more "GOLF"like. You're no longer just trying to hit a certain gap and land by the target. You've got to know the course and where to play your drives, approaches, and putts in many cases.

Other courses in our region that play like this are Tyler State Park, Killens Pond, from what I hear the new Lake Nockimixon Course and many others are starting to add that kind of golf hole is catching on almost everywhere around here.

OK, easiest 18-hole layouts played:

Horizons Park, Winston-Salem, NC
Tourist Park, Cedar Falls, IA
Burke Lake Park, Fairfax VA

Goodness Gracious!

Well, I can see a flaw in Chuck's ratings systems. Take one look at Santa Cruz Riverpark in Tucson, and there's no way in he11 you would put that on the top ten list. I don't care what they did to the layout!

On the other hand, I would have to agree that Tourist Park is about the easiest course I have ever played!!!

The easiest course I've played is Rockfalls, IL one of my advanced friends shot an -18 his first time seeing the course and I shot an -8 using only a mini. I think the hole course is 2200' or so.

My suspicion is that the River Park course was set up in a temporary 21 or 24 hole layout so the SSA hasn't been adjusted to an 18-hole equivalent.

chuck....i don't know which year tumbleweed event at santa cruz you are looking at but if it is 2003(this year)it was only 18 holes but not the regular 18....several holes were lengthened and others were moved. now the groves course at the tumbleweed this year was also 18 holes but had several challenges and a few longer(over 800 on one hole)holes to make it an interesting course...

All data in that table was earlier than 2003.

3 hardest:
1)Cameron East - Waco, TX
2)Meandering Greenbelt, Circle R2 - San Saba, TX
3)Z-BOAZ - Ft. Worth, TX

Blendon Woods in OH has to be one of the easiest around. I even shot under on it.

Fly 18 /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.giffly 18 Fly 18

By Nick Kight on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 06:13 am:

"The MADC considers the Woodshed a MADC course, however it does not consider itself MADC."


...and is unlikely to at any point in the foreseeable future.

When one looks at the East Coast on a MAP. Exactly where is the Mid Atlantic?

The USGS defines the Mid-Atlantic region as NY, NJ, DE, PA, MD, VA, WV, and Washington D.C.

Mid Atlantic Championship Wrasslin' defined it as VA and the Carolinas.

NY,NJ,DE,PA,MD??...

Them's YANKEE states!!!

While the discussion has so far been light-hearted and I hesitate to be a "buzzkill," one cannot dismiss that Nick may be alluding to Paw Paw and the West Virginia Open pulling out of the MADC umbrella last year.

Biscoe - remind us where the mason-dixon line is - and maybe reconsider that last statement /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

"buzzkill on"-
Jeff- Paw Paw was never under the MADC "umbrella" last year. That was a result of a misunderstanding on the part of the MADC representative who then compounded said misunderstanding by posting that nonsense in a public forum. To the best of my knowledge agreeing to "look over" a sanctioning agreement does not constitute sanctioning.

"lighthearted on"
Craiger- some of us rural Virginians think the mason dixon line lies approximately at the rappahannock river at this point. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

It doesn't matter where the Mason Dixon is. Anything north of the VA / NC border has become Yankeefied. You can't get sweet tea after you cross the NC state line going north.

With a standard like sweet tea, you guys are headed down a long isolated road.

John, not that you have any self interest in this, being the top organizer of a Virginia Tour, but that misunderstanding has been completely resolved and the unnamed party no longer in a position to be involved in any miscommunication. As MADC Secretary, I have no ill feelings about Tony's decision not to join the MADC Tour. He weighed the benefits and costs and came to his own decision. Cool. That's all anyone can ask.

Paw Paw and Tony Ellis are an important part of the MADC family, as is the Grange; this whether they are officially considered members or part of the tour. Those courses and their associated events are...well...beloved by players throughout the MADC Region, and will likely continue to be so.

Each year the MADC has attempted to work in concert and more closely with surrounding regions, hopefully that trend will continue. One part of that is our upcoming TD Summit which is not specifically a MADC event but for all TDs ready and willing to travel to Tinicum State Park in PA. The main theme will be Tournament Best Practices: Sponsorship and Promotion, but a very important scheduling session will be held at the conclusion where the MADC series' and tour will be sorted out.

I'd like to extend an invitation to you and any representative of NEFA to please attend and be part of the learning, fun, and planning for 2004.

You also have a chance to bring home one of INNOVA's top of the line permanent targets the Discatcher Pro for one of your courses if you win the handicap round. Go to www.madisc.org (http://www.madisc.org) for details, or drop me an email.

And for the record, there is Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and in between there's Alabama here in Pennsyltucky! There is plenty of Country up here, don't you worry... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

sweet tea = maple syrup only thicker /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Kirk makes a good point. Ask anyone in the north for 'tea' and you get a mug with hot water and a teabag in it. Ask anyone in the south for 'tea' and you get what we call 'iced tea'.

Rule #1 in the South.
NEVER order unsweetened tea. It's usually about a year old, nevermind the fact the container probably hasn't been cleaned, ever.

Hmmmmmmm . . . sweet tea!

It's not a drink, it's an potion to promote early onset diabetes.

It's not Tea, it's Tay.

If you are talking to a Northerner it's Sway Tay.

I drink unSway Tay, myself, cause I'm a Yankee.

Here's another question, do you think Concord, NC was pronounced "conquered" before the end of the Civil War? 'cause now it's "con-cored". Musta changed that one to stop reminding em who won the war....

Civil War II - Coming to a message board near you...

I know, I know, there's nothing "Civil" about the wars on this mess bored...

If my memory is correct, Spencer did not mind being a part of the MADC series, he minded having to buy our discs.

I consider anything below New Jersey southern.

I'd put Renny NC on the same level as Patapsco and Warwick. And the amount of work done on hole 2 alone is probably close to putting some entire other course in (though not Patapsco and certainly not Warwick). It ranks on my top 5 list -

1) Brandywine (Hey! It's me.)
2) Patapsco
3) Warwick
4) Renny
5) Prompton, Tinicum, Seneca, Killens, Tyler, Kennett Square

(#5 is cheating a little I know)

Beatles:

Try to see it my way
Only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong
While you see it your way
There's a chance that we may fall apart before too long
We can work it out
We can work it out

Life is very short, and there's no time
For fussing and fighting, my friend
I have always thought that it's a crime
So I will ask you once again

Would you consider being a part of the MADC Series or Tour in 2004?

Disc Sales are negotiable for courses that don't really have an established local scene.

Personally I'd love to see the WV Open and the Showdown become part of the MADC Series. Possibly even the Sherando Event, if it could be down without any toes getting stepped on.

I'll send you the updated 2004 Tour Agreement as soon as it is approved. Many of the ongoing concerns TDs around the MADC have had have been or will be addressed. Obviously it is all in the TDs hands to decide.

It should be mentioned that there are no shortage of events or tds wanting their events on the MADC Schedule, so we are cool with whatever the TD decides. It's all good!

My best in (...)
difficult:
sipapu in new mexico(-4)
o'hauser in wisconsin(even)
pyramids in massachusetts(-2)

easy:
triangle in green bay(-11)
roosavelt park in new mex(-10)
talulah in appleton wi(-8)
Take my status as amatuer into consideration.

Winthrop Gold
Warwick Blue to Blue
Renny Gold

1. Lake Nockamixon (after '05 worlds many will list this one as their toughest also)
2. Warwick blue to blue
3. Knob Hill long to long
Hey how 'bout that two outta three in Pa!