Willow Metropark between Detroit and Ann Arbor, Michigan. For me, at least, it's several strokes tougher than even the Toboggan or the Monster. Long, narrow, twisting, narrow holes with thick underbrush and a low ceiling.

Chris you did your job. You riled everyone up! LL

Hardest: Paw Paw
New Favorite: Paw Paw
Old Favorite, now #2: PawTapsco (Chris how DARE YOU !)
Hometown fun: Calvert Road (jg in the house)
Best newish course: Rockburn

Bengal Ridge, Pocatello, Idaho.

We're up on the side of a mountain in the sagebrush and junipers. The wind is blowing 30 mph. It is 95 degrees (this is supposed to be the cool mountains). No cloud cover. A lot of up and down elevation changes. The course is tick-infested. You get relief from the cactii (sp?) so as not to hurt your feet when you throw. A couple holes go over some nasty ravines. Having your disc go sailing off the side of the mountain is a possibility. It is a championship caliber course, but not much fun for newbies. I was lucky to come off the mountain, I almost couldn't walk the last couple holes. Water was on every thrid hole, but that still wasn't enough. We played two 18 hole rounds, and each took 3 hours to complete. Not a good first impression of the course.

Naturally, it would have been more fun if I wasn't so out of shape!

Discwood at Kirkwood is awesome! It's not for the meek.

Hardest...toss up between Paw Paw, Pawtapsco (long to C) and Warwick (Animal long). Shooting in the mid-sixties for 18 holes is very solid. Shooting in the fifties is hot. 9 extra holes at Paw Paw gives it the edge. Can't wait to go back next year!!


Most crowded...Morley Field

Check out Kenny's website, he has Patapsco listed as one of his favorites.


DD

What about Rock Hill Gold Course

Hardest: The Woodshed, Paw Paw, WV
Longest: The Woodshed, Paw Paw, WV
Shortest: Dunham Park, Liberty Corners, NJ
Easiest: Dunham Park, Liberty Corners, NJ
Worst: the new Jordan Creek, Whitehall, PA
Best: Warwick Town Park, Warwick, NY
Windiest: Brandywine Creek SP, Wilmington, DE
Softest: Cape Henlopen, Lewes, DE
Trashiest: Sedgely Woods, Philadelphia, PA
Rockiest: South Mountain Park, Bethlehem, PA
Grassiest: Tinicum Park, Erwinna, PA
Wateriest: Amelia Earhart Park, Miami, FL
Hilliest: Camp Horseshoe, Orefield, PA
Silliest: Baker Farm, Chili, NY
Dumbest: Tyler SP, Newtown, PA

It's great there are so many subjective opinions about what is the hardest course.

It's also indicative that there aren't any reasonably objective DG standards about what makes a hard DG course.

BG has slope measurements to determine what makes a "hard" course. The slope is the difference between scratch play and bogey play.

If there were such standards, then minimally such a discussion might be limited to what's the most challenging 120 slope course you've played, what's the most fun 130 slope course you've played..., etc.

The hardest DG course I've ever played is the Seattle's Woodland Park Y course (http://www.dolf.com/stuff/y_trees.htm). It was perhaps DGs first honest Par 72 course -- only three players ever broke par. It also possibly had the highest slope of any DG course, to this day.

For those few DGers brave enough to challenge their game with a totally natural version of the sport (instead of the heavily merchandized basket targets), Y trees required you to throw thru Y trees to hole out (either way works -- a stick can be used to define more challenging Ys). This all means you had to reasonably decent tee shots to get a chance at a precise approach shots, just to get a good putt, and missing a putt frequently wasn't a prelude for a simple drop in, just another challenging putt -- more like BG. A Y tree rates a 16 in catching difficulty (http://www.dolf.com/catching/target_rating.htm) -- pole hole 4.

The only available natural Y tree course I'm currently aware of is at Lake Stevens, which has baskets that follow a Y course layout. The Y course record is 53 (19 holes) at 3900 ft, 5 more than the Designer Target record (49), which is probably about 4 strokes tougher than a chain hole target at the same course (45?).

A newbie pro does well to break par on the Designer baskets -- white tees.

Last month a visiting Master Pro played at a casual club event (he finished in the top 20 at this year's World's played a couple rounds) -- As I recall, he scored a credible -2 (54) on the blue tees. His comment was "my game would improve if I played on these targets every day".

The question was the hardest, not the longest or steepest or windiest or blah blah blah...

Truth of the matter is, the hardest course in this country belongs to Charlotte, NC. It's name is Renaissance. Length? Got it. Elevation? Got lots of that too. Tight fairways lined with some of the thickest nastiest shule you could only imagine? Oh yeah we got that. 18 holes that would be signature holes on any other course in this country? Got that!!

Don't want to believe me? Take a look for yourself http://www.charlottedgc.com/renaissance.htm

Hardest: North Calais, Vermont

Renaissance is a great course but it has nothing on Paw Paw for hardest (imho)

I guess everyone will vote on their course being the best in one way or another. To think that Renaissance is the hardest is just crazy. To me, Hornets Nest is harder. I have shot some terrible rounds at the Nest and have always posted good scores at Renny. Recently, Wheetie said that hole 8 at Renny was the hardest hole in NC. The biggest number that I have ever recorded on that hole in tournament play is a 3 and I'm not that good of a golfer.

The hardest course, to my thinking, would be that for which WCP is highest compared to Pro Par.

So far, to my knowledge, this title goes to Winthrop Gold 2001, which had a WCP of around 70, while having a Pro Par of 68 (or possibly lower if you belong to the Par 2 crowd).

Renny in all long would be a Pro Par 60 at the lowest. I don't know what the WCP is for that config, but I'd guess in the mid to high 50's.

Moody's Blue tees have a Pro Par of 61, while the WCP is around 57 or 58.

I'd be happy to figure WCP for individual rounds of any A-Tier course if somebody would like to offer up a suggested Pro Par for some of the "harder" ones.

rodney

Or any non-A-Tier course for which tournament data is available.

rodney

Thanks for the back up Rodney. It means alot coming from the statmaster himelf.

Um. I would have to say Ozark Mt. in vichy MO. Course par is 70, course record is 64 (to the best of my knowledge). Easily the most difficult course I have ever seen, playing up, down and around a small mountain. Many tight holes with extreme elevation changes. Ravines, ponds, etc. Hole #11 is an insane 800 ft hole what has woods on left and right with a good 100ft drop within the first 300 ft of the hole. Dave McCormick has definately created a disc golf monster of a course!

Using MPO, FPO, and M1O and the first two rounds from the Ozark tournament in April of this year, I get WCPs of 67.82 and 67.66.

I'm assuming that those 3 divisions played the same course the first 2 rounds, but I don't know that.

WCP 68 on a Par 70. Not bad. Especially if it doesn't use any artificial OB, which I'm guessing it doesn't.

(For stat freaks, if I use only the 16 MPO players with ratings, I get 67.76 and 68.10. My congratulations to Roger, as I think that's pretty consistent.)

rodney

We all played the same courses that weekend. So your numbers are correct. Lets not forget about the the 5-hyzer hole there either....Started there, should have put the bag in the car and started the campfire.

Tough course, shot my highest round there. I am working on getting a tough jobby here in Blue Valley Park, and I think that you will all enjoy it. It will be like Water Works on Steroids. We don't have mountains in KC, but we do have elevation changes as our terrain is nice for that, until you start heading west.

Blue Valley Park, ask for it by name when you head to town.
Jack

What the heck is "artificial OB"? It either is or isn't, right? Concrete, roads, and water aren't automatically OB are they?

Sorry Daniel, I wasn't very clear.

My off-the-cuff definitions:

Artificial OB - Rope OB or painted lines such as at USDGC (unless they are painted lines to help define borders of other OB).

Man-Made OB - Concrete, roads, fences, playgrounds, etc., if specified by the TD.

Natural OB - Bodies of water, if speicifed by the TD.

Natural Obstacles - Trees, long grass, bushes, elevation, soft soil (or sand).


Winthrop Gold is a very hard course, but it is due to artificial OB. Though it's also pretty hard even without the rope. Hole 5 would be my number 1 favorite hole in disc golf if it didn't have man-made OB (park road) down the right side of it.

rodney

All I can say is the hardest course I've ever played was the Tobboggan at the 2000 worlds.
Insanely long and hugh slopes like (ski) slopes just walking the course was bad, but I'm just AM so the big pros might not think so.

No need for me to say the Hardest...I been building it for years, and next year when the Whippin Post is 18 holes, the Woodshed 18 will seem like Burke Lake! DUDES - Paw-Paw RULES!!

The most interesting course I've ever played is a 9 hole course in Ft. Dodge, IA. One hole is off of a 50 ft cliff and they have another hole with what they call "tree gates" which is essentially four sets of double dog legs. There was a trout creek flowing through almost every hole.

It may not exist anymore... but I guess I'll find out.

POW!

Aw yes Ft. Dodge, I almost forgot about that place. It was a very unique course. I bet it is still there. once in the ground in IA, it is hard to take them away.
Jack

Wilmont in 6-18 inches of standing water.

Must be the softest.

Thanks for the clarification Chris!

1. "Redstone Arsenal"
2. "Round Rock"
3. "Moody's"
4. "Circl R"

Hardest course: The Links at Lake Cunningham in Omaha, NE

length avg
AA 4086 227.0
BA 6038 335.4
AB 5136 285.3
BB 7284 404.7
AC 7363 409.1
BC 9293 516.3

First two times to play it there was high humidity and temps in the upper 90s. Grueling jungle golf.

would anyone who has played renissiance
like to say it is NOT
the hardest disc GOLF course out there
so many people have told me it is
even Greg Hosefeld who claims to have played
over 650 course says its the one

Hardest and best so far that I have played.
Da Canyon, Brookesville, Florida

Well then Chris, I guess if Greg says...

Also there is a course in the Giant Sequoias in Arcadia CA. I've just heard about it and I wondered where it would rate.

Any directions to this course in Arcadia. I will be visiting family in Brookings, Or. soon.

Marty, Redstone Arsenal!?? I LOVE Redstone! Probably my favorite course. The hardest I've played would have to be the long University of Alabama - Huntsville (UAH) course that was set up for the 1993 Worlds. IT was brutal and the temps were in the mid-90s. I believe that was the day I ended up with heat stroke. T/A

By David wheetie French on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 10:48 am:
"would anyone who has played renissiance
like to say it is NOT
the hardest disc GOLF course out there "

renissiance is a hard course. exspecially when their are branches in the way of my rollers. but if they're are, than i just pick them up and move them.

In my response to this thread.


Z-boaz is my Demon course. I played that tourney twice and I have not done as well as I have wanted to. Another course is the meadow course at Circle R. Maybe its the fact that I caused me and my partner a good finish at Nationals (AMS) due the #12 hole which I think I hit every tree (Worst throw) and we carded an 8. Those two are my nightmare courses but although I have not had any luck there I will continue to play them because I love the challenge and trying to overcome my demons.

Winthrop is my killer. The winds there are so unpredictable, every time you think you know where they are coming from they change. Sploosh. I have lost 5 discs to the lake in 2 outings recently, and I have gotten much much better since the first time when I threw 4 discs in the water (fished one out).

Renaissance is hard, but I am playing it better and better. I am the b!tch of holes 11 and 12 though, those 2 kill me every time. But the rest I am not as afeared of... I finally 4ed 17, and I 3ed 13 in a tourney, I have parked 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 15, and almost 16.

This course will definitely make you a better all around player.

Ozark Mountain is ranked #1 WCP with 62 being the course record. The average score for the open division for the 7 events so far is 70.3!!!
Our next event will be Oct 26th and 27th for those who would like to test their skills.
It is a PDGA sanctioned B-Tier and there is plenty of room for camping on the 300 plus acres.

The objective way to determine what is the "hardest" course is to compare the difference between scratch DGer scores with the bogey DGer scores because such a range includes the vast majority of DGers.

While there is some modest validity in using the difference between pro and open players to determine course difficulty, it's possible that all one is determining is the distance factor (between pros and adv open players) of the course, not the technique factor or a blend of power and technique.

As a frame of reference, a visiting master pro (who finishing in the top 20 at this year's worlds) recently visited Lk Stevens. His round on the technical blue tees was a credible -2 (55 for 19), which is only a stroke better than our estimated course par rating. Statistically the bogey DGer rating is over 75 (depending upon how you define bogey DGer. This is for a 3800 ft course that is proud that not a single tree was cut to make the course easier.

It's also worthy of mention that the random doubles (club event) course rating for the blue tees is -2 (55 for 19), which conforms with the observation that a club random doubles average is about the same as the WCP course rating, only it takes a lot less trouble to generate. Which shouldn't be much of a surprize, random doubles is basically a round with 36 - 48 mulligans.

As a bottom line, a valid easy way to measure of course difficulty might be to figure the difference between between random doubles and individual scores at club events.

Of course, without any reasonable recognition of clubs and club events by the current PDGA rules/organization, the scores at various club events are meaningless.

Carolina golfers, what pin positions were used for the Points Bonanza at Renny? If it's not too much trouble, please run through them hole by hole.

Did any of the pins move between rounds?

Also, which tee on hole 1? The one in the tunnel or the one down by the tennis courts?

And was the newest long tee (across the road) used on 18 (by everybody)?

Finally, did all divisions play all the same tees?

I'm trying to use the Points Bonanza results to get an idea of WCP vs. Pro Par for this course, so your information will be most helpful.

(If you're feeling really bold, I'd take info on Hornet's and the other two courses during the Bonanza as well. Since all of the scores are available on-line, it's easy to figure WCP; but it's best if I know pin positions, and whether they moved between rounds, and if everybody played the same tees.)

Thanks,
rodney

Hole 8 was long up to the right in the first round and long straight ahead in the second. Hole 1 tee in tunnel. Hole 18 was not across road. Hole 2, 13 & 18 were long on the cliffs. Three long and everything else appeared to be long. It will be interesting to see if the WCP for round 2 is less than round 1 with only #8 changing shorter.

Rodney, Hornets Nest only has one layout that is used. Kilborne played long 5,long tee on 6,new long basket on 8, the whole course was the longest setup. Reedy Creek I can't remember, lot's of throws ago. LL

For Renny, I did calcs for MPO, M1O, and for the full field. Using M1O data makes the WCP lower. My guess is that this is caused by stale Player Ratings (from 12/31/1). In other words, the Adv players have improved since the beginning of the year, but we're still using their old ratings.

<TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD></TD><TD>MPO</TD><TD>M1O</TD><TD>Full Field </TD></TR><TR><TD>Round 1</TD><TD>61.22</TD><TD>58.36</TD><TD>60.11 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Round 2</TD><TD>58.74</TD><TD>58.06</TD><TD>58.38 </TD></TR><TR><TD>All</TD><TD>60.15</TD><TD>58.27</TD><TD>59.33 </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>

Round numbers, I'd say WCP of 59, maybe even 60.

Second round is consistently lower, probably due at least in part to moving 8 to the short.

With the pins as Chuck describes, I'd assign Pro Par at 60 with 8 long, and 59 with 8 straight. (To get to this number, I'm calling holes 3,8,13,14,17,18 par 4's, and all other par 3. Some might argue 17 and 18 are easy par 5's, but I prefer to think of them as hard par 4's. Such is the beauty of the subjective "Pro Par". Also, even if I believed in par 2's, I don't think any of the holes at Renny qualify.)

For people who care about such things, consider that Renny is probably "harder" with hole 3 in the short. In the short, it's a par 3 that's very difficult to get a 2 on. But in the long, it's a par 4 where getting a 3 isn't as difficult.

rodney

Larry, thanks for the info. I thought number 12 at Hornets had other pin positions, but I've never seen it in anything but the long dogleg right.

WCP for Hornets shakes out like this:
<TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD></TD><TD>MPO</TD><TD>M1O</TD><TD>Full Field </TD></TR><TR><TD>Round 1</TD><TD>53.41</TD><TD>53.37</TD><TD>53.37 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Round 2</TD><TD>54.71</TD><TD>53.60</TD><TD>53.94 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Overall</TD><TD>54.06</TD><TD>53.48</TD><TD>53.66 </TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>

So I'd say 54 is a pretty good round number for WCP at Hornets.

My view of Pro Par would be 58. That would be par 4's for 8 and 16, and a par 5 for 12. Holes 2, 6, and 18 are long par 3's, but probably too short to be par 4's. Hole 12 is a bit of a tweener, but I like to go with short par 5 instead of long par 4. Finally, if you're in the Par 2 crowd, I suppose an argument could be made for hole 5, and maybe even for 9. If so, you could lower Pro Par to 56.

In summary, WCP 54 with Pro Par of 58 or 56, depending on your Par 2 stance. That makes Hornets a pretty "hard" course. Not as hard as Renny or Winthrop Gold, but still pretty tough.

rodney

Kilbourne comes out to a WCP of 51.10 for those that are curious.

I'm not familiar enough to give out a Pro Par, but I'd guess about 57 in the longs, and maybe a stroke or two lower if you allow par 2's.

rodney

Ozark! My best still 10 on Par 70. The course is as physically challenging as mentally.

Yeah but you are just grateful to be playing at all.....
8*)

Rodney, it looks like you really have your ducks in a row...sounds right on!/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Hey Felix, In a post you mentioned a course and said it is "Most pedestrian layout, given potential of available land/terrain: Centennial Park". Where is this Centennial Park course?

Centennial Park is in Etobicoke (Toronto), Ontario.

Obligatory trivia question

That course was made famous in what (awful) made-for-TV movie?

Bonus question:
What was the dudes score?

Obligatory trivia answer: "Hitched."

AP,

1. It wasn't awful. This cinematic tour-de-force worked so well on so many levels, but I guess I can see the casual viewer not appreciating the allegory, the flirtatious jaunts into nihilism, and the intimate balance between story-"telling" and story-"showing". Oh wait, no, on second thought, it was pretty awful.

2. I don't remember his score, but he was playing at a Grand Master level.

Obligatory Rodney Stats: www.imdb.com (http://www.imdb.com) has half a dozen reviews on the "film", and 49 votes, with it averaging 5.1 out of 10. 7 people gave it 10 out of 10, while only 4 gave it 1 out of 10.

rodney

For those wondering, Reedy Creek, the fourth Bonanza course, played at about a WCP 48 that day (and Larry Leonard shot at about a 1052 rating that day to beat the field by 7 strokes).

rodney

Warwick N.Y. is pretty tough, and fair from the long tees to the long pins, with no artificial OB's. Tourney course record is 62. Played it last week and shot 63. I was happy with my score.

I think he was 4 down after three holes (or maybe 5 down after 4), then they went "to the clubhouse."

And I think I side with the opinions of wwworker, Eric M, and Rob Zurfluh and not the 7 morons at imdb. I added my vote this morning. I gave it a 2 (which is admittedly one better than awful on IMDB's scale).

http://www.pdga.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?file=/49/3470.html&amp;lm=1001361917
http://www.pdga.com/discus/messages/56/3212.html?1007674818

I've got a bunch of candidates that fall on this list, but the one thing I would like to see at these courses is a warning sign to let newbies know what they are in for. I vividly remember the first month I played disc golf almost nine years ago, when someone had told me about a great course about an hour away. When I got to Tinicum Park, most of the poleholes were in the long position and the course was almost 8,000 feet long. I only threw about 200 feet max then (I can do twice that now) and I hated it! I was so used to pitch and putt courses that I despised the world class length and design of that course. I was so disgusted I almost gave up the game completely. Could the same thing be happening these days with other beginning players?

I am thinking that perhaps a warning sign would have let me known what I was I for. Anybody see the ball golf U.S. Open a few years ago? They played a public course known for being a very difficult and challenging course that high handicappers would not enjoy. Below is the sign posted at the entrance of the Bethpage Black Course. How about a similar thing for the hardest disc golf courses?

http://www.golfopinions.com/Warning.jpg

Probably the Woodshed at Paw Paw. The first time I played it I shot a 73. I don't remember ever shooting a score that high for 18 holes. It took me 7 or 8 years to ever card a score in the 50's.

tobaggon

paw paw

This is a kind of relative question, isn't it. Generally speaking I play better on courses that have high SSAs, or it feels that way. Courses like, Paw Paw, Tinicum, Tyler, and I've been known to hit bottom on some "easier" courses like Calvert, Sedgley Woods, Druid.

So what is "hardest" mean? Highest score or most difficult to shoot well?

Highest score would be a tie between Paw Paw, Patapsco, Warwick, Tinicum, Nockamixon, Seneca, Pleasant Run and Renny (longs for all of these). I'd probably average between 63 and 69 on those courses.

Hardest courses, the ones where it is tough for me to score well in relation to SSA, are ones like Brandywine, Buchmiller, Tyler, Knob Hill, even Rutgers(!?!).

But if I had to pick one course that makes me feel like Mark A was whaling into the back of my head with a baseball bat, and question my continued participation in disc golf, it would have to be Patapsco in MD.

It also happens to be one of my favorite courses... (go figure) ;)

So far, Rennaisance circa '02 setup. A very hard course to play for the first time w/o a local leading the way. I had to jog up the fairways on many holes to get an idea of the basket placement, that alone can wear ya out, then you gotta make a good shot. I finished 6-6 for a cool 72. The cliffs and the rocks make for a beautiful but grueling course.

One of the hardest courses I've played is Ox Bow in Goshen, IN.

2004 Michiana Open (http://www.mdgc.org/open)

(a shameless plug) :D

CAMERON EAST WACO **** that course

But if I had to pick one course that makes me feel like Mark A was whaling into the back of my head with a baseball bat, and question my continued participation in disc golf, it would have to be Patapsco in MD.




Ah, the simplistic beauty of that imagery is overwhelming. Thank you, Nick. Thank you.

Hey, even flea bitten muts need a bone now and again, right?

Ive played most of the courses listed here. I can't agree with pawpaw being the hardest. Heck Ive shot a 60 there. Heres my list

Knob Hill---long tees/C-Pin HARDEST
Winthrop Gold
Renaissance--played it the 1st day it was in the ground, it was so hard I couldnt even find holes 9-18???????
PawPaw is up there in the top 10...though also has 3 of the stupidest holes I've ever played. Though most of the course is beautiful.

moody's from the blues

circle r2. all three of them

cameron east

The most difficult course I have ever played (not that I have played that many) has got to be Ozark Mt. in Vichy, Mo.
There are two courses there. The other one being Akitas Run. One you had to use a rope to get up to the basket and a rope to get down from a tee to another basket and on some holes you could meet your disc rolling past you on your way up to the basket and not just once but several times. That is the easier course, Akitas Run. I remember playing a practice round with some of the locals and after a few holes, I mentioned I was glad I only had to play this course once (thinking it was the more fifficult). They said Oh no, you get to play this one twice. We were playing Akitas Run, the easier of the two courses. Both courses are physically as well as mentally demanding with several of the baskets not visible from the tees. Long holes, lots of trees,creeks, pond to throw across, ticks, tall grass, hills, cliffs, everything you could want for a great day of disc golf.

ticks, tall grass, hills, cliffs, everything you could want for a great day of disc golf.



Yea, tall grass and ticks, that's definitely what you want for a great day of disc golf! :D

A general rule of thumb (though stupid holes may well exist) when you hear someone say, "That's a stupid hole." is that they really mean, "I give up on that hole, it's too difficult for me."

Another one is, "This course is stupid." Replace it with, " I $uck."

Yes, unfortunately I am speaking from experience...

On balance you may be right about stupid holes pointing fingers more at the player but in the case of Paw Paw, it's right on and they are proud of their stated design philosophy of working the players with unfair gaps and unremoved trees in many places.

the "stupid holes" I speak of are only stupid because you can throw a perfect shot 300 feet up the fairway, and you are no better off than if you threw the shot 150 feet right or left of the fairway. That's what I call stupid. When you are not rewarded by a good shot, something is wrong with the hole. For the most part, PAWPAW is totally fair...but those 2 or 3 holes where there is no preferred flight path just seem plain stupid to me. And I'm not talking about the gauntlet, because that hole is GOOD!!! And I have 3'd it.....I think it might be toothpicks that pisses me off. even circles is a good hole.

[quote: they are proud of their stated design philosophy]

Yes we are!

Stupid is what stupid does.

Cameron East!!!!!

Cameron East!!!!!



ditto

CIRCLE R 2 SAN SABA!!!!

I dont think Cameron East is more difficult....

Now, in the GOLD/USDGCQ configuration, it FOR SURE will be.....

Which course? You couldn't possibly think that all 3 are harder.

This is a kind of relative question, isn't it... the ones where it is tough for me to score well in relation to SSA...



Nick,

I think you've nailed the issue. The question is not how you score in relation to 54 but how you score in relation to SSA. (Someday I hope that DG will figure standards for par so that course par approximates SSA. I think this is big need to be able to compare courses.) Only last Saturday did I finally come to a paradigm shift when I played the Renaissance Gold course. I keep a database in which I assign a Difficulty Rating to each of the 115+ courses I've played. Until last Saturday the Diff Rating was based on how hard it is shoot 54. That's because we have no standard ways (other than SSA) to determine par in a consistently recognized manner.

Then I played Renny Gold and I consider par on the configuration it was in to be 70. So I felt good to take a 5 on a par 5 hole, and great to get a 3 on a par 4 hole, not so bad to take a 6 on a par 5, etc. This experience opened my eyes and now I have to redo my Difficulty Ratings which I had previously done based on how difficult it is to shoot 54. In relation to scoring 54 I had previously rated Renny as the most difficult, but in relation to shooting SSA/Par I don't consider it as tough.

Now I need go back to each course and determine what Par should be. Since I don't have access to SSA info it'll have to be an estimate based on a formula for determining par that I've devised after reading some of the discussions.

Since I don't have access to SSA info it'll have to be an estimate based on a formula for determining par that I've devised after reading some of the discussions.



Lowe,

SSA info for many courses can be found here. (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php) Keep in mind that the tournament setup may be very different from when you played a casual round at each individual course.

Since I don't have access to SSA info it'll have to be an estimate based on a formula for determining par that I've devised after reading some of the discussions.



SSAs are available for course layouts that were included in each event that was rated. Just find a tourney in the past few years. Look it up and click on the Course Details link if it's there when the results are displayed.

If you can give the course length, SSA, and Pro Par when you submit a course that would help us to understand and compare the courses. (It will also help me to update my file on Difficult Courses.)

Go to this site if you want to look up SSAs for all courses in a state with values.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php

Unfortunately, the lengths aren't in there but the number of holes is indicated so you can make sure the configuration at least matches the regular number of holes. At some point, this info will be tied into the course directory with lengths.

Pro par doesn't really tell you much since there's no standard by which TDs or course pros set them. Using SSA is much better as a relative difficulty index.

What's it take to get on the list? EIEIO is in the player stats, but no entry for Emerald Isle in the course SSAs.

Course stats get in there when the player ratings get in there. The event stats get posted up to 2 months before the ratings are updated for those results. Mid-May will be the first ratings update to include any 2004 results.

Lowe, if you played Renny last w/e, remember 4 of the holes were in the short position and 1 hole was long. Doesn't change par much, but would change SSA (if there was a SSA for this setup, which there isn't) Hope you had fun playing Renny. Sounds like you weren't discouraged playing a coures that was not par 54, good for you. :)

Jeff and Chuck,
Thanks for the info on SSAs.

Still SSA has it's difficulty in evaluating a course's difficulty. It can only give you a rough idea. I believe that we really need set standards for par. For example the SSAs for Renaissance Gold in 2003 vary from 63.2 - 67.6 - 69.9 (the last two are for the same layout on the same day.) That's a variance of over 6 throws, so in practical terms it is no help to me as a Rec player. Now I know that it helps evaluate Pro tournament rounds, which is what it is designed to do. But when I play a course I need to know how my score on each hole compares to a standard, usually called par. The only way I can compare one course to another is by evaluating difficulty relative to a standard. As I stated earlier comparing courses by how close I shot to 54 is worthless too.

Having multiple hole layouts adds to the diversity, but it sure makes tracking par tough. Maybe we should just have one standard tee and basket combination as our cousin BG does it. When I just played Renny it took me a while to sift through what par should be for each hole with the current basket positiions. Still I even had to make adjustments to ludicrous estimations of par. (IMO Hole 18 in the current set up is a par 5 from both Original and Gold tees.)

Can you imagine a recreational ball golfer having to do this kind of work to evaluate his round? Imagine telling them that to figure out how well he played he'd have to go to the internet and check out the ratings from tournament scores to estimate what par should be for the course he played, and then he needed to figure out par for each hole. Most people would just give up, or quit caring about score.

Don't misunderstand me. We have a volunteer organization that already does incredible amounts of work for this sport that I enjoy so much. SSA is a great step forward and it helps in certain ways. For my type of play I just need something more.

There are supporters who would like to have SSA used as the basis for Par and others who feel it should be done the "rule-of-thumb" way like ball golf. SSA is your best reference for your course score difficulty ratings. If you need to average the numbers, that's fine. Eventually, those numbers will be provided in the Course Directory.

There are two problems with using SSA directly to set Par. The one that makes most cringe is the fact that once a par for the whole course is set at say 51, people will want to know which holes are the Par 2s. The other problem is that typically more holes on the course have scoring averages just under a round number than just over a round number. So, using SSA for the whole course usually underestimates the par goals on each hole.

Rob,
Thanks to all the info you, Casey, and Rodney provided I was able to get par figured out. At least I'm satsified with it. As I just mentioned what I really need is par for each hole, so that I can tell how I did.

Actually I enjoy courses with par over 54 even though I have a weenie arm. The long holes on the Gold course are nice variety. To me variety is what makes a DG course good. It's fun to have long holes like 13 and 18 at Renaissance. (I still don't see how Stan can call hole 18 in the long position a par 4. On the Gold course it's 1001 ft. uphill with ravines and trees to negotiate.)

I really love Renaissance, though! Here's my summary from my NC Course Guide:
� �Awe inspiring. A sublime experience on a world class course. The Charlotte club, led by Stan McDaniel, has done a mind boggling amount of work on this course! A model for what all disc golf courses should aspire to. The land has great elevation changes. You do battle with the course, but you ask for more. It kind of reminds me of fraternity hazing; as you�re getting punished you keep asking �May I have more please?� The addition of the Gold course holes has pushed this course up to an even higher level of excellence. The only area that needs improvement is better signs and instructions to navigate the Gold course. There�s an awesome map on the Charlotte Club website (CDGC) and a link to an Excel spreadsheet with the current layout. (That�s such a handy piece of work in itself!) Don�t attempt to play the Gold course without these or you may have lots of frustration. Still, this is the best and the toughest course in North Carolina. Personally, I still prefer the Original course to the Gold course because I think the holes are better on the original course. I highly recommend that you play Renaissance for the quintessential disc golf experience!� (Lowe Bibby, 4/04)

Overall SSA can deviate (sum of inidividual hole SSA for a course) but as long as pin positions do not deviate greatly, World Class Par for each hole and the total course should never change. At most courses, a change in pin position on each hole is slight enough that it will not change the WCP for that hole and the total course.

So just like when a recreational ball golfer shows up to a new course and plays it and sees what par on each hole and for the whole course will be, any recreational (or other) disc golfer can show up at Renaissance Park and know accordingly. Ultimately, it would be nice if WCP is printed on the tee sign. And in those cases where a pin position rotation results in a change of par, hopefully all permutations will be listed as well as some kind of indication as to which position the polehole is located.

The WCP par information for Renny is below.

<table border="1"><tr><td>Gold Course</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Original Course</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Hole</td><td>Pin Position</td><td>Length</td><td>Par</td><td></td><td>Hole</td><td>Pin Position</td><td>Length</td><td>Par
</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>A</td><td>450</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>1</td><td>A</td><td>298</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>A</td><td>469</td><td>4</td><td></td><td>2</td><td>A</td><td>275</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>A</td><td>303</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>3</td><td>A</td><td>303</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>551</td><td>4</td><td></td><td>4</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>306</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>392</td><td>4</td><td></td><td>5</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>227</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>A</td><td>254</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>6</td><td>A</td><td>254</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>B</td><td>324</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>7</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>288</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>323</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>8</td><td>B</td><td>324</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>285</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>9</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>323</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>out</td><td></td><td>3351</td><td>30</td><td></td><td>out</td><td></td><td>2598</td><td>27
</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>538</td><td>5</td><td></td><td>10</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>285</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>1042</td><td>5</td><td></td><td>11</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>262</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>617</td><td>4</td><td></td><td>12</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>212</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>974</td><td>5</td><td></td><td>13</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>564</td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>564</td><td>4</td><td></td><td>14</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>360</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>378</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>15</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>378</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>302</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>16</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>302</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>517</td><td>4</td><td></td><td>17</td><td>(permanent)</td><td>517</td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td>B</td><td>1001</td><td>4</td><td></td><td>18</td><td>B</td><td>827</td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>in</td><td></td><td>5933</td><td>37</td><td></td><td>in</td><td></td><td>3707</td><td>30
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total:</td><td>9284</td><td>67</td><td></td><td></td><td>Total:</td><td>6305</td><td>57
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

Overall World Class Par for each hole and the total course should never change.



Jeff,

Where do you get WCP info for courses?
Did the table you posted come from the CDGC site Excel spreahsheet? If so, who set the WCP for each hole? Dave M indicated it was set mainly by Stan.

IMHO I find it crazy that Gold 10 is a par 5, yet Gold 18-Long is par 4! On Gold 10 my throws were-- 200' drive with a Roc that just missed the gap, 150' mediocre Roc into trees, a 40 ft dink out of a stymied lie, a good 150' uphill tomahawk that parked under the basket for my drop in par 5. I was surprised to find that I had parred it. On Gold 18 the best I could possibly ever do would be a 6 if I threw all shots perfectly and hit all landing areas (but I've got a noodle arm, so I accept I won't score as well on long holes.)

Lowe,

Yes that table came from the CDGC site Excel spreadsheet. I had assumed those pars were from WCP data, maybe they are not!

The WCP for each hole is assigned based on which integer par number is closest to SSA. Holes with SSA values less than 2.5 are Par 2. Holes with SSA between 2.6 and 3.4 are Par 3. Holes with SSA from 3.6 to 4.4 are Par 4 and over 4.5 are Par 5.

Based on your description, it sounds like hole 18 Gold should be a par 5. I've never played Renny, but unless it was severely downhill the whole way, any 1000 foot hole usually is a par 5.

Part of the problem is that some holes reached in two throws or three throws can be par 4s. In the first case, the scoring average for a 1000 rated player might be 3.7 and the other it might be 4.4, but they are both Par 4s. Stan might have felt the scoring average on Gold 18 still fell below 4.5.

Based on your description, it sounds like hole 18 Gold should be a par 5. I've never played Renny, but unless it was severely downhill the whole way, any 1000 foot hole usually is a par 5.



FYI, the way Renny is currently set up is that 18 is in the B position. See this map (http://www.charlottedgc.com/images/Renny_Front_Gold_Aerial.jpg) for the layout. The 18B position will not be used much any more since it conflicts with the Gold 2 fairway.

The set up as it is in now (18B) is ~1000 ft (Stan does not remembering measuring it), and Stan told me it should be par 4 (which I have a hard time accepting too). The 18 Gold length is 774', par 4.

absolutly no question - Renny

My first memory of Renny is walking up to hole 1, seeing that it was a someone tight fairway, coming out of a tunnel, and 377 with the pin gaurded by trees and a hill....not to mention a huge rock near the top of that hill, OB right and long, and some nasty stuff left.......I remember thinking "holy crap, I'll be happy w/ a 3" when I walked up to this tee.......as i tapped in on 18 and 63 throws later, my thought was man you got to get hole 1 - thats a birdie hole

absolutly no question - Renny

My first memory of Renny is walking up to hole 1, seeing that it was a someone tight fairway, coming out of a tunnel, and 377 with the pin gaurded by trees and a hill....not to mention a huge rock near the top of that hill, OB right and long, and some nasty stuff left.......I remember thinking "holy crap, I'll be happy w/ a 3" when I walked up to this tee.......as i tapped in on 18 and 63 throws later, my thought was man you got to get hole 1 - thats a birdie hole



That is funny.

funny, but true - i was dead serious

funny, but true - i was dead serious



I bet.

Anyone ever played Sipapu,NM ? It's a Beautiful, hard as heck 20 holer,up on the ski runs and it's hosted some great tourneys,too.

Robert,

I can really appreciate what you shared about Renny. A 63 is a pretty good round there. One does battle with that course. I assume you were playing an earlier version of the Original course.

I've got a question. Were you comparing your 63 to the standard par of 54 or were you gauging it against a par of 60 (or 58, 59)?
If was in relation to 54, how would you have felt about your round if it was compared to 60 (or 58 at the minimum)?

As for me, I feel much better about a +3 than a +9.

Renny Gold, Idlewild, and the old Ozark Mountain course are the 3 hardest I've played, I think they all play around the same score wise.

Renny Gold, Toboggan (sheer gruel factor), and then another sheer gruel factor with awesome holes, Gran Canyon in Brooksville.

I played Renny Gold tonight, and before my round I told myself I wouldn't let my head mess with my game. I had a great round of 70. Thimk about that a minute... A great round of SEVENTY. Sure, I screwed up on hole one missing my putt that would have put me in the 60s, but I had a great round.

Hole 1 long, 4
Hole 2 long, 3
Hole 3 short (Iwent for a birdie putt through "the vines" 3
Hole 4 Loooong circle 6. I threw a beautiful sidearm for what looked like a putt to get a 4, but my disc stood up and rolled OB.
Hole 5 Long 4, using an aviar and an aero (I'm starting to figure out my strengths and weaknesses here....
Hole 6 normal 4. I hate this stupid straightforward hole.
Hole 7 short 4.
Hole 8 only position 3
Hole 9 missed a stupid 15 footer for birdie. 3
Hole 10 LONG 3. I 3ed this hole!!!!! WOO HOO!!!! Aero up the gap, then a big Hyzered Orc. The virtual tour... and yes, it's ALL uphill. (http://www.charlottedgc.com/images/renaissance/Renny_10G.mpg)
Hole 11 (1000+ft) 4. Yeah, I got a 4 finally, and it's less hard than I thought.
Hole 12 long 4. bad upshot after a great drive. left it a little short.
Hole 13 (974ft) 6. This hole is one of the world's greatest holes. you must check it out now that it has had a chance to become more than a ripped apart path through the trees.
Hole 14 normal 4 (a beautiful Roc drive landed me in the perfect spot for a 3, but I hit a cedar a little early.
Hole 15 normal 3.
Hole 16 normal 2. I finally got a 2 on this sucker, now that I figured out the hyzer route.
Hole 17 normal 5. I always get around the corner, but I overshoot my landing zone. Every durn time. Good hole.
Hole 18 long to long 5. I had a chance at a 4. my second shot put me on the second plateau, but I had a bad upshot, even with 2 great drives, my upshot was daunting none the less. This is no par 4. There is just no way. A 4 would have been a miracle and I was ripping drives left and right.

I have a love hate relationship with Renny. I think that is what you get when it is the toughest course you have played.

Renny takes the phrase good shots are rewarded, bad shots are punished to a whole new level. It is the Hell-bent Catholic Nun with an Attitude of Disc Golf courses.

What a segue, Matt (and it wasn�t even planned)! I have just completed to a presentable point the �Be The Disc!� Virtual Video Tour of Renaissance Pro Players Course. For those of you who want to see for yourselves what Matt (and others are talking about), click here (http://www.charlottedgc.com) and then navigate to the Renny page. Enjoy�.hope you have high speed internet!

Robert,

I can really appreciate what you shared about Renny. A 63 is a pretty good round there. One does battle with that course. I assume you were playing an earlier version of the Original course.

I've got a question. Were you comparing your 63 to the standard par of 54 or were you gauging it against a par of 60 (or 58, 59)?
If was in relation to 54, how would you have felt about your round if it was compared to 60 (or 58 at the minimum)?

As for me, I feel much better about a +3 than a +9.




Sorry for the slow answer Lowe - this thread kind of fell out of my mind and didn't follow it


I tend to look at holes as par 4s and 5s whether or not people call it that or not. I'm like you, when I realized I had shot 63, I though man thats not good at all, but I was looking at is as a par 60.

I've found that looking at holes not in terms or par three, but probably what they are, helps my mental game a lot...

When i play a course like Jacksonville, thats a par 57
Cedar Hills - par 56
Zeb- Par 57


It has helped my mental game so much

Hole 18 long to long 5. I had a chance at a 4. my second shot put me on the second plateau, but I had a bad upshot, even with 2 great drives, my upshot was daunting none the less. This is no par 4. There is just no way. A 4 would have been a miracle and I was ripping drives left and right.



Nice 5 after missing the mando.:D:D

I played Renny Gold tonight, ...I had a great round of 70. Thimk about that a minute... A great round of SEVENTY...



Matt,
In the current layout par at Renny should be 69. So 1 over par is a great round, especially at Renaissance. Shooting par should be a great accomplishment. It sounds like you've got a good solid game, so it seems that par at Renny is set pretty fairly. I think that par should be a standard that someone of your skill level can only attain with an excellent round.

I'm finally becoming enlightened after 6 years of play on over 115 courses (some people are slow learners). As I said earlier course difficulty needs to be measured in relation to par, not relative to 54. Until I played Renny recently i always measured difficulty based on my score in relation to 54, not par. One result is that I've downgraded Renny's difficulty rating in my course evaluations database.

I know it's been discussed ad nauseum, but I strongly believe that disc golf needs objective standards for par. That has to take into consideration not just length, but hole configurations. There seems to have been movement in that direction, and I know it's tough with a growing almost all volunteer organization.

Now I need to go back an re-evaluate every course I've played for the difficulty relative to par. In that light one of the toughest courses in NC is Green Pines in Knightdale. I count it as a par 28 nine holer, and my average is +8 for nine holes. Hole 8 is one of the toughest holes in the whole state of NC.

...Hole 10 LONG 3. I 3ed this hole!!!!! WOO HOO!!!! Aero up the gap, then a big Hyzered Orc...


Matt,
Nice Eagle!! Did your Aero make it all the way through the tunnel to clearing at the end (near basket 14) so that you could throw a clear hyzer over the junk to the basket? If so, that's an awesome shot to get a drive that far!

I played Renny Gold tonight, ...I had a great round of 70. Thimk about that a minute... A great round of SEVENTY...



Matt,
In the current layout par at Renny should be 69.



Actually, par as set up now is 67 - see the Current Config spreadsheets on Renny's page on www.charlottedgc.com (http://www.charlottedgc.com)

I agree that 18 in the B position (looooong - past holly bushes) should be a 5 (I have emailed Stan to re-check his thinking), so par should maybe at 68. That collar will be removed soon and that position eliminated since it is right on the fairway of 2 Gold.

But a 70 is a great score. A 3 on 10 Gold is insane - talking about threading the needle twice in a row!

...Hole 10 LONG 3. I 3ed this hole!!!!! WOO HOO!!!! Aero up the gap, then a big Hyzered Orc...


Matt,
Nice Eagle!! Did your Aero make it all the way through the tunnel to clearing at the end (near basket 14) so that you could throw a clear hyzer over the junk to the basket? If so, that's an awesome shot to get a drive that far!



With a little help froma tailwind my Aero just cleared the rightside of the fairway and just floated and floated, about 30 feet shy of the landing zone. All I wanted was to keep it in the center so I could have an easy layup to the zone. Once I'd had a chance to absorb what an awesome shot it was (the first shot is hard for a lefty) I decided to go for it, and sent an Orc on a high Hyzer route missing a branch by a few inches, and landed on the left side of the green, just over the ridge in the gulley that sort of catches water. I only had about a 25 footer to make, which was 10 feet more than the birdie shot I missed on the previous hole.It really was an exciting moment. SiBlais had by far the best drive I have ever seen, he was AT the zone, and threw a thumber that looked perfect, but put him 40 feet past. It's a really hard upshot to judge because there IS NO FAIRWAY. It's up and over or nothing. so distance is harder to judge.

Duncan Lake - Oklahoma

Hunter Creek- Tulsa......... the first 5 holes are in a forest!!! tricky tricky...... hard to par!

Duncan Lake - Oklahoma

Hunter Creek- Tulsa......... the first 5 holes are in a forest!!! tricky tricky...... hard to par!



Hunter Creek? Is that a hybrid of Hunter Park and Haikey Creek? :D

BTW, has anyone beat my record at Haikey? :D:D:D

lol my bad.......... hunter park.......... happy now??? :D

Sipapu is a great course, and some really good tournaments happen there. Tough 20 holes, but all can be done in 2 shots. Very hard to do 'em all in one round though, those steep slopes, big trees, and cool vistas make it hard to string those birdies together. We had a great time at their Ice Bowl this year (has anyone else tried to play a 1500 foot downhill hole on a SNOWBOARD?) Did anyone notice the picture of LLoyd and Olive(Sipapu's original owners) in the Ice Bowl article in the latest DGWN?

absolutly no question - Renny

My first memory of Renny is walking up to hole 1, seeing that it was a someone tight fairway, coming out of a tunnel, and 377 with the pin gaurded by trees and a hill....not to mention a huge rock near the top of that hill, OB right and long, and some nasty stuff left.......I remember thinking "holy crap, I'll be happy w/ a 3" when I walked up to this tee.......as i tapped in on 18 and 63 throws later, my thought was man you got to get hole 1 - thats a birdie hole



Rob don't lie. I was there. 63 is what I shot. You shot so high you didn't even keep up with it. Somewhere in the 80's.

I'd have to vote for Patapsco of the courses I've played. Long, varied, beautiful, it's the most difficult and my favorite...thus far. But has anyone else played Trophy Lakes in Charleston, SC? Not quite as long, but almost and lots of water and weird, fun challenges. I threw my highest score ever there...until the next time I played Patapsco.

I'd have to vote for Patapsco of the courses I've played. Long, varied, beautiful, it's the most difficult and my favorite...thus far. But has anyone else played Trophy Lakes in Charleston, SC? Not quite as long, but almost and lots of water and weird, fun challenges. I threw my highest score ever there...until the next time I played Patapsco.


I don't think this is the hardest course , but hard on the plastic. Papago in Arizona. That course will make your stable driver into a roller in no time. Just grind it !! :eek: :D

papago is very hard on plastic. i've had difficult tourney rounds in tokyo, 150 plastic, high wind and that larry guy from B.C. always trying to make my score go higher. the original ox bow course in indiana was very hard to play, right and left 90 degree turns in the same fairway because shots were designed specifically so "good" players didn't have an advantage over newbies.

texas courses were the hardest on my eyes and feet. fire ants are a bitc h.

Veteran's Park in Arlington TX----Man that course used to be monsterous--It still is hard but the first setup---Years ago was really tough after it was first installed :D

Circle R Ranch in San Saba, Tx. 3 of the longest course that you will proably ever play Meandering Greenbelt, Strawbale Field, and the River, all of them close to 10,000ft long each. Also some of the most beautiful course i have ever seen.

Circle R Ranch in San Saba, Tx. 3 of the longest course that you will proably ever play Meandering Greenbelt, Strawbale Field, and the River, all of them close to 10,000ft long each. Also some of the most beautiful course i have ever seen.



Long doesn't equal hard.

Circle R Ranch in San Saba, Tx. 3 of the longest course that you will proably ever play Meandering Greenbelt, Strawbale Field, and the River, all of them close to 10,000ft long each. Also some of the most beautiful course i have ever seen.



The River isn't that long. Greenbelt is and I think Strawbale comes close.

Circle R Ranch in San Saba, Tx. 3 of the longest course that you will proably ever play Meandering Greenbelt, Strawbale Field, and the River, all of them close to 10,000ft long each. Also some of the most beautiful course i have ever seen.



The River isn't that long. Greenbelt is and I think Strawbale comes close.


Hey Kid , where is Strawbale located ?

Strawbale isn't that long either I think it's almost 9K though. The River seems so long due to the travels between a couple holes, like from the river Hole 14 to the hill, Hole 15, etc., not to mention the up and down play throughout that course. Strawbale is between the MG and the River courses at Circle R2 outside of San Saba. Texas that is :D

Burnet!

:D

Seriously, the Colorado River Course, at Circle R 2 has to be my pick for the hardest. Its not the longest (although its long) and its not the highest SSA. Its the hardest, IMO, because there are so many decisions that a golfer must make. There is no chance to take a hole off mentally on this course at all. Not only is it physically tough as nails, but your mental game will be on high alert from the first tee to the last. That is, if you want a respectable finish.

The Beast is strong, Strawbale is long, and Rolling Meadows is the prettiest of the two worlds. But the River will drown you if you let up in the least.

Favorite long tough course:
That would have to be a tie bewtween the Beast and Rolling Meadows.

Prettiest Course:
Easy. Sipapu, New Mexico

Favorite Birdie Course with Teeth? Need you ask? :)

Oh, I forgot to add -

Least Favorite Course That Everyone Seems to Love But Me:
La Ma

I have to agree with the River or Strawbale at Circle R2. The River is shorter, but physically tougher. The Strawbale lets you think you can relax on a few holes, but is equally demanding on execution. Let your concentration slip and you will be picking up extra strokes on most holes.

Both are Houck courses and both demand placement shots to set up the next shot and both punish bad shots.

Mitch Macs private course in 100 degree weather. Lots of cedar trees.

It's not open to the public yet, but the 18 hole course to be opened in Appomattox, VA this summer is a BUTT-KICKER to say the least.

IMO hardest does not equal "most potential to have a high score" (or highest SSA). After much work on this question my current answer is that "SSA - Gold Par" is the best measure of course difficulty.

Gran Canyon in FL or Brandywine in DE

"the canyon" in winfield KS.

"the canyon" in winfield KS.




Perhaps, but not Gran Canyon in Brooksville, Florida

have you played the kansas canyon? my guess is that you most likely have not, so i wouldnt go making assumptions about it. there are some insane shots out there. i havent gotten to play the gran canyon but i know its also a very tough course.

In order with my difficulty rating:

Winthrop Gold. 97.0 (Played the 2001 USDGC layout the week before it started, and didn't even play the rope as OB.)

Seneca Red (Long tees). 96.8 - Gaithersburg MD

Green Pines. 96.5 - 9 holer in Knightdale NC. Go off the fairway and you're in nasty stuff. Hole 8 is one of the hardest in NC.

Renny Gold
Tyler State Park
Warwick Long to long

I would have to agree with Atwood, that the Colorado River course at CR2 in San Saba is the toughest I have played so far.

Strong winds mess with your head when you teeing off from the top of a hill and the best drop zone is 500ft away on a +900ft hole.

#18 on that course is beautifully difficult. Course par is 5 on the hole but it is possible to eagle it, with a 550ft drive and a 200ft approach onto the 20ft diameter green with OB all around it. I had a chance at a 3 practicing playing singles, but skipped off the green on the approach. I witnessed a triple circle 11 at World Doubles on that hole, our card mates were beating us until that particular hole.

The temp Toboggan Course in MI has to be up there.-Kensington Park

Either the Beast in Waco when it was roped and lengthened for last years USDGC qualifier or the new and very unforgiving Circle C in Austin.

The hardest course, to my thinking, would be that for which WCP is highest compared to Pro Par.

rodney



I think Rodney's on the right track here. I would agree with what he said-- to a point. Although I would change the wording to "SSA minus Gold Par gives one of the best measures of course difficulty."

There are also a few other numerical measures of difficulty that I'm experimenting with. I'll write more later if I have time.

Rodney, are you around?

"SSA minus Gold Par gives one of the best measures of course difficulty."



There are a few courses I have played this year that have really punished me along these lines. I shot average for me (950-ish) for some rounds and then horribly as well (850-ish) for one round each tournament. And...this was without feeling like I played much worse -- not tons of airballed putts or bad shanks on drives.

These courses were Richmond Hill in Asheville NC, Sugaw Creek in Charlotte and Foothills in Easley, SC. All have some tight OB and nasty rough off the fairways that will absolutely punish being slightly off line on your drives. Bad kicks will send you OB with no route towards the basket (double penalty - OB stroke and pitch out).

Asheville and Easley especially have treacherous terrain around several baskets where missed putts and even well placed upshots will have a 50% chance of rolling out of gimme putting range. A larger percentage of the baskets on both these courses have a lot of trees within 10 - 20 feet of them. I do not like this as it builds too much randomness and luck into the results. (On the flipside, these holes somewhat reward people with good straddle putts).

how about ssa divided by distance? this would yield a ratio of strokes per foot. the longest courses are not neccesarily the most difficult just because they take more strokes to complete.

how about ssa divided by distance? this would yield a ratio of strokes per foot. the longest courses are not neccesarily the most difficult just because they take more strokes to complete.



Actually SSA/ Length doesn't quite work because of the 30 throw constant "Around the Green" (ATG) factor. Low SSA courses come out with disproportiantely higher numbers than high SSA courses.

So I've started using a Difficulty Factor of [(SSA-30)/Length]x 10000. The 10,000 factor gives you a number on a 100 scale.

Just last night I had an epiphany and I thought of another factor that has great potential. I need to test it first, though, and I also don't have time to explain it right now either. The basic idea involves establishing a baseline SSA which would be based on Actual Length with no foliage, no elevation changes, no OB, no forced lay-ups. This number is (Course Length/285)+30. Then you compare this to the Actual or Estimated SSA. I'll let you know more later.

to me, the hardest course is definitly between the crucible (http://www.athensdiscgolf.com/CourseAnalysis2003.html), paw paw (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4795#Advanced), and patapsco blue tees to c pins. (http://www.geocities.com/meklir/Patapsco/patapsco.swf)

I had read on the PDGA directory about a course in Mebane, NC, so a couple of friends and I took a trip to check it out. It turns out there are no tee pads, no baskets, and the fairways were nothing more than chopped down trees laying there rotting. To top it off, we got locked in the park and had to call the police to come unlock the gate to let us out. It is very hard to shoot a low round when there are no baskets.

Nockamixon, without a doubt is the hardest I've played. It has a SSA of 66 for 18 holes. Very easy to shoot mid to high 70s if you're off your game. Very strenuous to walk. Very hilly, rocky plenty of trees to hit and plenty of OB water to land in.

After that, the Woodshed, Whippin Post and Patapsco Longs, Seneca Longs, Knob Hill longs and Warwick Animal tees to Blue would all battle for #'s 2-7.

Having just returned from Highbridge, I'd have to give Highbridge Gold an honorable mention as it would probably crack the top ten between 8-10.

I know a lot of above average pros who have played Circle C is SW Austin and the course recored is 64 (21 holes). Low teens over par usually wins minis. Are these good barometers for a course's difficulty?

Before the weekend I was expecting to say "Renny Gold" at night. But it wasn't that hard. I was only 4 over par. Night golf at Renny rules!

Golden Hills DGC (Christiansburg, VA) from the GOLD tees is the hardest round of disc golf I could ever imagine playing, and I'm not saying that as a "Homer". Don't believe me?, Come on out on Saturday, August 6 and see for yourself. Your first tee shot and you last approach shot will be the only 2 "open" shots you will throw.

Copperhead Canyon - Tulsa OK

SSA played around 50 for the Oklahoma Open last year(Barry, Ron Russell, K. McCoy,etc) but for us not-so-advanced players, its a good challenge. Look forward to tackling it again at Am Worlds next year

I've only played about 50 or so courses so I'm no expert but of those I've played I'd have to say:

Warwick
Seneca Creek
Patapsco
(all long to long)

Love living in Cali. and love the courses here but have yet to play one here that compares in difficulty to those 3.

Ross,
I've played those three from the longs many times. While they do exemplify the masochist mentality of this region, Lake Nockamixon in Quakertown, Pa has them beat for difficulty.
In a few short weeks some of the best disc golfers in the world will have their mental, physical and emotional thresholds tested when they are subjected to two rounds at this beautiful yet demanding course.
All the whiners and crybabies will be exposed as this course will separate the men from the boys.

Circle Hill at Circle R
Circle R2-Colorado River and Strawbale Field
Circle C-new 21 hole layout
Rocky Ridge Ranch- Stephenville,TX (no longer there)
Cameron East
Audobon-Garland,TX
Old Settlers on a windy day :D

Old Settlers on a windy day

really hard now with 21 holes I guess it depends on which way the wind is blowing :D