ERicJ
Aug 07 2013, 08:59 PM
It was my understanding under the pre-2013 rules that if you had a thrown disc in a tree over 2M and it fell to the ground before you arrived to mark the lie that you were not assessed a 2M penalty and you marked a lie from where the disc stopped after it fell. This matches what Chuck posted on DGCR last year:A disc can only officially be "at rest" on the playing surface or the target. All other locations above and below the playing surface, the disc is "live" until the player gets there to mark the lie on the playing surface with a mini.
--http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1594231&postcount=13

But with the 2013 rules I think it reads that a disc can be at rest in foliage (802.02.B) and has position on the playing surface (802.02.C). So now what happens with respect to 2M-penalty when that disc at rest in a tree falls before the player can mark the lie? Do you have to guesstimate whether or not it was above/below 2M? (And thusly, if judged to be above 2M assess a penalty stroke?)

Was this an intended change in the 2013 Rules?

bruceuk
Aug 08 2013, 09:42 AM
Yes, and Yes. It would have to be a group consensus on height.

bruce_brakel
Aug 08 2013, 07:53 PM
Both Bruces concur.

kyle
Aug 09 2013, 09:07 PM
Just remember the two meter is not in effect unless the TD declares that it is. By default there is no two meter rule. Either way the disc gets marked where it was at rest.

futurecollisions
Aug 10 2013, 01:28 PM
The disc is not at rest until the player arrives and marks the lie.

jconnell
Aug 10 2013, 06:46 PM
The disc is not at rest until the player arrives and marks the lie.

Care to cite where it says that in the rule book?

futurecollisions
Aug 11 2013, 11:57 PM
Care to cite where it says that in the rule book?

The absolute position of the disc cannot be known until the player arrives and physically marks the lie, only then can the disc be at rest.

ERicJ
Aug 12 2013, 01:39 AM
The absolute position of the disc cannot be known until the player arrives and physically marks the lie, only then can the disc be at rest.
So you're saying your order is: the player first marks the lie, then the position is established, then the disc can be at rest.

You realize that's the opposite order that it happens in the 2013 rules, right?

jconnell
Aug 12 2013, 01:16 PM
The absolute position of the disc cannot be known until the player arrives and physically marks the lie, only then can the disc be at rest.

Again, I'll ask you to cite where it says this in the rule book. Section and rule number, please.

cgkdisc
Aug 12 2013, 01:30 PM
The absolute position of the disc cannot be known until the player arrives and physically marks the lie, only then can the disc be at rest.

That's only true if where the disc lands cannot be seen by the group. If it can be seen, then the disc can now (2013 rules) be considered at rest when the disc stops moving at the end of the throw, or for that matter, when it stops based on its own momentum in the case where it lands in moving water.

Martin_Bohn
Aug 13 2013, 10:32 AM
That's only true if where the disc lands cannot be seen by the group. If it can be seen, then the disc can now (2013 rules) be considered at rest when the disc stops moving at the end of the throw, or for that matter, when it stops based on its own momentum in the case where it lands in moving water.

chuck can you comment on the intent for this particular rules change?

cgkdisc
Aug 13 2013, 11:22 AM
I'm not sure since I wasn't in the RC discussions on it. But my thought is that the previous rule allowed "at rest" calls only when the disc was on the playing surface and the basket. With the rule change for 2013, the "at rest" condition occurs wherever the disc first stops of its own momentum independent of its physical location.

Martin_Bohn
Aug 13 2013, 12:35 PM
well yes, i understand the definition of the rule..... but is the intent to close a perceived loop in the rulebook as far as "being at rest" is concerned? did the rc want to disallow acts of nature if the disc is moved from its previous lie by natural causes?
ie, disc in tree over 2 meters in plain site, wind causes disc to fall before group gets to disc.....the new rule means the disc is spotted by group as close to original spot as possible with penalty stroke added for being over two meters in tree.....btw i thought you were involved in all rc matters....

cgkdisc
Aug 13 2013, 12:43 PM
I'm not on the RC but was in the past. Considering we didn't allow moving water to change the location of the disc in the pre-2013 rules, it seems like not allowing air movement when suspended in a tree also made sense.

futurecollisions
Aug 13 2013, 12:44 PM
That's only true if where the disc lands cannot be seen by the group. If it can be seen, then the disc can now (2013 rules) be considered at rest when the disc stops moving at the end of the throw, or for that matter, when it stops based on its own momentum in the case where it lands in moving water.

Then my point is proven, the rule is flawed and should be changed back.

In most cases you cannot see a disc in the tree until arriving, therefore the disc is still in motion until the player arrives, takes a few seconds to look, and then views the disc, hence giving it plenty of time to fall out of the tree for whatever reason before the player arrives to mark the lie.

Another example, a disc is thrown over the edge of a hill with water behind, the group cannot see beyond the edge of the hill, so therefore the disc may have come to rest before it reached the water, and was moved by wind or some other force after it was at rest, therefore I will mark my lie inbounds because I claim the disc was at rest.

futurecollisions
Aug 13 2013, 01:01 PM
So you're saying your order is: the player first marks the lie, then the position is established, then the disc can be at rest.

You realize that's the opposite order that it happens in the 2013 rules, right?

I guess the rules committee has never heard of Schr�dinger's cat.

How could I determine a position before I arrive and physically see where the disc is?

By new rules logic, as soon as I throw off the teepad, I can claim an observation of the disc at rest 10ft from the basket. Then, when I arrive at the disc, if that position is not what I observed, then the disc must have moved from where I observed it, therefore it moved after it was at rest as seen from where I threw it.

araydallas
Aug 14 2013, 01:17 PM
Then my point is proven, the rule is flawed and should be changed back.

In most cases you cannot see a disc in the tree until arriving, therefore the disc is still in motion until the player arrives, takes a few seconds to look, and then views the disc, hence giving it plenty of time to fall out of the tree for whatever reason before the player arrives to mark the lie.

Another example, a disc is thrown over the edge of a hill with water behind, the group cannot see beyond the edge of the hill, so therefore the disc may have come to rest before it reached the water, and was moved by wind or some other force after it was at rest, therefore I will mark my lie inbounds because I claim the disc was at rest.

I guess the rules committee has never heard of Schr�dinger's cat.

How could I determine a position before I arrive and physically see where the disc is?

By new rules logic, as soon as I throw off the teepad, I can claim an observation of the disc at rest 10ft from the basket. Then, when I arrive at the disc, if that position is not what I observed, then the disc must have moved from where I observed it, therefore it moved after it was at rest as seen from where I threw it.

Dude, it's a group call, not your individual one, so that's what is going to go. Sure this rule is a little flawed. Most rules are. Rules have some judgment of common sense, are not completely black & white, and nearly all have an intent. And you cannot legislate sense -- either you have common sense or you don't. I personally believe the new rule is better because if the group sees your disc suspended in the tree before you do (likely because you know it's there and you're purposely not looking because it's windy today), then they can call it at rest in the tree. Like always, if you don't agree with the majority ruling you can play a provisional and take both outcomes, then let the TD decide. Good luck with that.

This rule meets the best intent of the situation. And this rule is less flawed than the previous one. And gimme a break. A disc is not "still in motion" because you can't see it. I have a degree in science. And there are many situations in disc golf where the group "approximates" the position or lie because of other circumstances.