A specific hole has water off left. The water's depth can vary greatly. At best, it's a mushy mess to walk into.

Unless it's been an exceptionally wet period, the water is little more than 18" or so deep, but the mushy bottom can add another 12".

So, calling the water casual isn't always practical, since discs can usually be retrieved fairly easily, even without a Golden Retriever. But, there may be a time when the water is 24" plus the mush, and it's neither safe nor easy to get in there. But, calling it flat-out OB isn't necessarily the best thing, either.

Is it kosher to say "disc in the water, play as casual IF the disc is retrieved, otherwise the lost disc rule is to be followed"?

Thanks!

steve

I'm not sure it's necessary. Lost disc requires a penalty and return to previous lie. You could just play it casual all the time; you get 5 meters free relief, otherwise you can take more relief (with penalty stroke) or take an optional rethrow (penalty throw and return to previous lie, same result as lost disc).

I'm not sure you want to make a penalty based on the player's willingness to get his feet wet (or otherwise make the retrieval effort). I also think---without bothering to look it up---that "lost disc" assumes a disc can't be located, not that it can't be retrieved.

David is correct in saying that the lost disc rule is for unlocated discs, not irretrievable discs. So it seems like an ill fit and poor interpretation of the rule to force a player to take a penalty just because they prefer not to wade into water to retrieve it.

And it also seems completely unfair to give players the choice of wading into water up to their knees or deeper (depending on their height and the depth of the water) to play a shot or taking a stroke-and-distance penalty. That's an extreme difference of scenarios that isn't at all necessary.

Why be squeamish about calling the pond OB, though? Even if the size fluctuates, it's not going to fluctuate greatly during a round. So either it's a small OB area when the water is down or it's a bigger one when the water is up. Either way, same for everyone.

If it were me, it would be down to two choices:

A) Call it casual water and, if necessary, make a special allowance for more than 5 meters of relief if the diameter of the pond is greater than 5 meters. That way everyone can choose whether to get wet or stay dry without a penalty being involved.

B) Call it OB and rope/stake/paint a line around the pond that would remain constant whether there was a lot of water or very little water in the basin. Again, making it fair for all by having everyone who lands in it getting penalized. And there are no hard feelings if the water level is different for one day versus another...the rope/stakes/paint is the line and it doesn't change from day to day.

Thanks, guys.

Reading these thoughts, OB makes sense. But, since the water doesn't change in the course of a round, or a day, all that much, it will simply be "in the water, surrounded by water".

Much appreciated.

Another forum I'm on has an unofficial but vocal group who at least THINKS they know all the answers...and everyone has fun when they don't. That group is called the "freak jury"...so I propose a process of "asking the DGFJ" (disc golf freak jury) maybe the PDGAFJ.

One alternative we're looking at to avoid marking a lot of OB lines is to allow players to play their shot from in the casual relief area or rethrow from previous lie with no penalty (but counting the shanked throw). No 5m or extended relief allowed. This rule is allowed under Special Conditions section. This works regardless of the current water level - low water players may play it in the casual area, high water they likely rethrow.

Would this also change the optional rethrow rule as well?

It seems to me that the decision between O.B. and casual would depend, in part, on whether that's a good location for O.B. Or, to put it another way, if O.B. at that location would be random or unfair.

I didn't think about calling it casual but having a special condition "drop zone", which may be better than allowing "greater than 5 meters" relief. We once had this at Stoney Hill when we had a huge area of debris piles to throw over. It was impractical to grant any amount of relief on the line of play, so we put an optional drop zone. You could throw out of the debris or call it casual and throw from the drop zone; it was located where you didn't gain any advantage, other than safety, if you chose it. (If the drop zone doesn't gain advantage, you don't have to worry about marking a clear line on the casual hazard).

Would this also change the optional rethrow rule as well?
Doesn't change the Optional Rethrow rule. It's not involved. As Sauls pointed out, it's using the optional drop zone with no penalty as indicated in the Special Conditions rule. But rather than a fixed drop zone, your drop zone is from your previous lie.

I guess my question is based on your comment that this would help avoid marking OB lines.