chainmeister
Jul 15 2012, 11:20 PM
Hole 5 Highland Park, Joliet IL. There will be a tournament there later this month. There is a fair amount of elevation change which is very rare in the Chicago area. Erosion has left a deep crevice below the roots of a tree. My tee shot on 5 was about pin high 25 feet to the right and went...under the tree. I played vertically, just above the disc standing awkwardly on the root. My partner thinks I could also have crawled under the tree (if I weighed 50 lbs) or stood behind the tree. Those of you who think I made an incorrect shot can call "Cheaters Proof" as my birdie putt of about 25 feet hit the very top of the tray and took and edge rolling down the hill about 125 feet below and away. Sure 3? Possible 2. Nope, it was a 5. But enough of the comedy, the academic question was fascinating. What is the lie for shot #2?

cgkdisc
Jul 16 2012, 12:16 AM
What you did was fine and the other two options were also available assuming your disc was on the basket side of the tree.

Patrick P
Jul 16 2012, 02:23 PM
@Chuck, Why wouldn't the player be required to place a supporting point directly behind the disc? I can't tell how far in the disc is from the opening, but it looks to me it would be reasonable for a player to crawl and place a foot there within 30cm of the disc, even if they were facing the opposite direction of the basket.

Sounds like per the OP, the TD did not specifically define this area as below the playing surface. If the TD did make the announcement, then I would agree with your assessment per 803.08B, that the player can mark lie directly above it. However, I don't see how you can call 803.08A. The playing surface in this situation is not inside a tree or solid obstacle.

On several courses I've played with either bridges or small drainage tunnels, players were required to crawl in or below to establish their lie behind the disc (when landing in these areas), or take optional relief (per 803.05C).

chainmeister
Jul 16 2012, 04:00 PM
We interpreted this as an 803.08b situation- below the playing surface. My mark, going directly up from the front edge of the disc (yes, its a guess as the disc was about 4-5 feet below me. I found a younger kid in the park to retrieve the disc as I didin't think I could get it) left me an awkward stand. My plant foot was at an awkward angle as if I had a broken or spastic foot. I still should have made the putt. The tournament is not until the end of this month. I posted this as I hope the TD sees this. I could easily see another disc landing under there.

Mashnut
Jul 16 2012, 04:57 PM
I've been down there twice, there's almost always a way to get a foot behind it standing between the roots, it's a little awkward but not all that difficult. It would probably be worth asking at the players' meeting whether that specific TD considers that area below the playing surface.

Patrick P
Jul 16 2012, 05:25 PM
I would certainly bring this to the TDs attention and I would recommend designating this area 'below the playing surface' to forego any unusual stance discrepancies. Good luck in the tournament!

acesandchains
Jul 18 2012, 01:37 PM
Under the "summary of rules changes" on the PDGA site, I found this nugget:

"The rules for a lie above ground have been changed to include a lie below ground (in a crevice or below a bridge, for example)."


I take this to mean that a disc under that tree can be marked for play above the roots using the same rules you would use when it is caught in a tree. (ie: marked directly above the disc at ground level, and played from there.)

acesandchains
Jul 18 2012, 01:47 PM
I couldn't find any requirement that the crevice, or bridge in question had to be declared as "below the playing surface" by the TD. If anyone sees this requirement in the rules, please post it here.

Seems to me this is just another area where common sense should prevail.

I have been under those roots before, and thrown from the lie below the roots. But I also recall throwing from a stance on top of the roots one time because it was impossible to get a stance down below. Thankfully, this has never come up at a tournament. It does make a good discussion.

Disc71
Jul 20 2012, 09:52 AM
After looking at hole 5 closer, discussing it with the PDGA Rules Committee and some of our staff we’ve come up a solution. The area of the crevice will be roped off and there will be a mandatory drop zone in the area behind the tree without penalty. The drop zone will be marked with a flag or cylinder.

jake12984
Jul 20 2012, 10:32 AM
After looking at hole 5 closer, discussing it with the PDGA Rules Committee and some of our staff we’ve come up a solution. The area of the crevice will be roped off and there will be a mandatory drop zone in the area behind the tree without penalty. The drop zone will be marked with a flag or cylinder.

Good solution! I'm left-handed and have been there quite a few times, so thanks for clearing this up.
BTW, who throws their **** beer cans down there!?#@@#?!! Boo! :mad:

chainmeister
Jul 20 2012, 10:33 AM
This is a reasonable solution. Would this be with or without a penalty?

jconnell
Jul 20 2012, 12:16 PM
This is a reasonable solution. Would this be with or without a penalty?
...
After looking at hole 5 closer, discussing it with the PDGA Rules Committee and some of our staff we’ve come up a solution. The area of the crevice will be roped off and there will be a mandatory drop zone in the area behind the tree without penalty. The drop zone will be marked with a flag or cylinder.

chainmeister
Jul 20 2012, 02:02 PM
...

Well, I better get better at disc golf because I sure am not too good at reading.