So at our mini Wednesday I was told of a situation that happened in an area tourney a few weeks ago. A guy played in the Open division, but wants to keep his ams status so he can play Am Worlds, and thus turned down cash excpeting to be paid in plastic. The TD said there was a new rule that said he didn't have to give him any payout since he declined the cash.

Is this really an option the TD has? And if so how in the world is that right in the eyes of the PDGA?

So at our mini Wednesday I was told of a situation that happened in an area tourney a few weeks ago. A guy played in the Open division, but wants to keep his ams status so he can play Am Worlds, and thus turned down cash excpeting to be paid in plastic. The TD said there was a new rule that said he didn't have to give him any payout since he declined the cash.

Is this really an option the TD has? And if so how in the world is that right in the eyes of the PDGA?
Ams are allowed to accept prizes in lieu of cash, but I don't believe there is anything requiring TDs to offer that option. The Competition Manual provides this instruction for declined payout...

1.10 Distribution of Prizes
A. Any prizes (money or merchandise) declined by a player must pass down to the next finishing player.

So if the TD is unprepared to offer merchandise in lieu of cash, he does have the rules-backed power to pass the prize down the line instead.


My personal policy as a TD is that if an amateur player enters a pro division and intends to maintain his amateur status, he/she needs to inform me prior to the tournament so that if he/she cashes, I can arrange for prizes to pay out. My amateur divisions are all trophy-only with no prize payouts, so it's not as though I have a ready system in place to convert a pro cash spot to merch. Otherwise, I'd have to pass the money down as "declined" by the player.

I haven't encountered the situation since the change two years ago to allow for ams to accept merch, but I think if I did, I'd at least offer the am either a reduced trophy only fee so they're not contributing to the prize pool in the first place. The alternative would be to pick the equivalent of their cash prize from the leftover player pack discs, and I don't offer a player pack at all my events.

So in the rule you posted, it says money or merch. so that to me isn't saying they have the right to not pay you if they want.

If the PDGA allows players who want to keep their Am status to play in Open...IMO-All PDGA events should have pay out those players. Should they let the TD know ahead of time, well probably so just to be on the courteous side, but unless the rule book say they have to...they don't. But they sure should still be compensated even if it's after the event so the TD has time to get them discs(especially if they didn't let you know ahead of time).

With 106 views so far of this, I'm taking it my original question is not a rule?

I don't believe that the TD has an option to not pay out Ams choosing Merch over cash.

I don't believe that the TD has an option to not pay out Ams choosing Merch over cash.

What does the TD do if he doesn't have the ability to payout merch instead of cash?

One option is to contact one of the myriad of online vendors and negotiate a credit that the amateur can use with that vendor.

One option is to contact one of the myriad of online vendors and negotiate a credit that the amateur can use with that vendor.

That is something that would be better to have worked out ahead of time. I think most of the time this is a non issue as the TD likely has merch available. However, I would think it would at least be courteous to let a TD know you are planning on entering as a pro but opting to take merch instead of cash. If a TD wants to run a pros only cash payout sanctioned tournament you shouldn't have the ability to show up and force him to provide merch instead of cash. If you approach him with your plans ahead of time he then has the opportunity to tell you he's not providing merch for pros that want to decline cash.

However, I would think it would at least be courteous to let a TD know you are planning on entering as a pro but opting to take merch instead of cash.

I agree with you that it would be courteous of the player to let the TD know in advance that these are your plans.

If a TD wants to run a pros only cash payout sanctioned tournament you shouldn't have the ability to show up and force him to provide merch instead of cash. If you approach him with your plans ahead of time he then has the opportunity to tell you he's not providing merch for pros that want to decline cash.

However I do not agree with this....that is as long as the PDGA allows the option to take merch over cash in Open divisions to keep Ams status. The tournament should have to make things right with the players, even if it's after the fact. And truthfully why wouldn't you want to do this, you can pay out retail value of Merch, which only makes the tourney more money.
Plus there is no reason to make a player that is above other local advanced levels players play down and be called a sandbagger and maybe run away with the ADV division Especially if the goal is to keep his AMs status to have a chance to win a World Title in Ams (which is exactly the case with the 2 people that didn't get the payout they should have...both are at Worlds this week and one is tied for 2nd in a junior division).

However I do not agree with this....that is as long as the PDGA allows the option to take merch over cash in Open divisions to keep Ams status. The tournament should have to make things right with the players, even if it's after the fact. And truthfully why wouldn't you want to do this, you can pay out retail value of Merch, which only makes the tourney more money.

If the TD is running a pro-only event like PhattD suggests, and has no merch to sell/pay out with, how can he "make money"? If the TD doesn't have a way to get merch at wholesale cost (not part of a club, doesn't sell out of the trunk of his car, isn't affiliated with an online or brick & mortar store), his only option is to seek out a vendor and pay full retail price. The player gets his prize, but at no real gain for the TD.

If I am a TD in such a position, running a pro-only event, the choice for the am who doesn't want to turn pro is to decline the cash so that it passes down or to pay a reduced entry fee to play for trophy-only.

And all of this is a moot point IFFFFFF the director discloses everything up front (say, in the tournament flyer)...and then the player(s) can vote with their feet. Less than optimal disclosure yields more potential headaches for the TD.

Karl

And all of this is a moot point IFFFFFF the director discloses everything up front (say, in the tournament flyer)...and then the player(s) can vote with their feet. Less than optimal disclosure yields more potential headaches for the TD.

Karl


Right on Karl, I'd say if the TD is going to run a Open Only tourney...or if the tourney is open to all, but only wants to pay Pro divisions cash or nothing(or reduce cost for trophy only) that needs to be said before the event however he is getting the info out.


I got a message from the TD that did things this way, he said he never actually read or saw the rule himself.....but that some of the other Open players (probably those that cashed) told him he had the option to choose not to pay the 2 players that cashed but wanted merch.

Regardless of whether the TD has disc stock on hand, they signed a sanctioning agreement that said that they would abide by PDGA rules. The rules say the player has the option to get merch instead of cash in order to maintain am status.

As I read the Competition Manual, the default is the TD is required to pay out Ams who cash in a Pro division with merch if the player wishes to retain Am status. However, the TD may announce in advance that Ams can enter Pro divisions at a reduced entry fee to only compete for trophies. And, Ams might have to pay full entry fee if the division is full. When this policy is announced in advance, cash prizes move down one place skipping over any ams in cashing positions.

Help a lazy researcher. Where do you read that? The passage that I found was:

E. Professional players entering into a Professional division compete for money and Amateur players entering into a Professional division may accept merchandise in lieu of cash.

"May accept", to me, would mean the TD would first have to offer merchandise in lieu of cash before the player could accept. That seems to put the option on the TD.

(Though, if the TD has merchandise on hand, why wouldn't he offer? He gets a boost on the wholesale/retail differential).

A general tournament rule is the TD is required to pay out to those who cash in pro divisions per the PDGA guidelines unless it's some special X-tier format announced in advance. Ams who cash may accept cash (and turn pro) or accept merch in lieu of cash or decline any payment allowing the payouts to move down one position. TDs can choose to not pay out Ams who cash only if they indicated ahead of time that Ams who enter a pro division are doing so as Trophy Only. Hopefully the entry fee is reduced but doesn't have to be.

Competition Manual sections 2.1, 2.3 and 2.5 are relevant.

I dunno. It looks to me like, putting various rules in reasonable priority, (1) TD shall pay cash to those who place in the pro divisions, (2) players may decline cash, (3) (implied) TDs may offer merch in lieu of cash, (4) players may accept merch in lieu of cash.

The "implied" being that the player is not entitled to merch in lieu of cash, but may accept it.

That's my strict reading, subject to revision. As I said, in practice I can't see it happening, unless the TD has only enough merch on hand to pay the Am divisions. It must be rare. We had an Am twice win the Open division at tournaments we ran, and our bottom line was grateful to him for taking merch.

I don't think your #3 is implied. If the TD does not announce in advance, then it is always the player's option to accept merch in lieu of cash and the TD's responsibility to provide merch in lieu of cash when requested (even if the TD has to order the merch with the cash prize and get it to the player at a later date).

What else would an advanced player be able to do if there were not an advanced division offered (due to lack of other advanced competitors). This happens on a semi-regular basis locally as we do not have a large population of advanced players in town so they play with the pros and then get merch equal to the cash prize.

Because TDs won't always know if any Ams signed up for their Pro divisions, it would be common courtesy for the Ams to inform the TD and determine what the TD will be able to do if they happen to cash.

Because TDs won't always know if any Ams signed up for their Pro divisions, it would be common courtesy for the Ams to inform the TD and determine what the TD will be able to do if they happen to cash.

most definitely

I don't think your #3 is implied. If the TD does not announce in advance, then it is always the player's option to accept merch in lieu of cash and the TD's responsibility to provide merch in lieu of cash when requested (even if the TD has to order the merch with the cash prize and get it to the player at a later date).



Maybe so. When I read "may accept" merch, I take it that he can accept it if offered. If the rule said the Am-playing-pro "may receive merch...." or "may take merch...." it would probably strike me differently. It just seems to be inherent in the word "accept" that something was offered, not required.

There used to be a tournament around here where Ams were paid in custom-stamped trophy discs. For example, I have a "15th Place Advanced Men" disc. That TD had no merchandise on site, to sell or award prizes. But he paid Pros in cash.

I don't see where he'd be required to have merch on hand just in case, or to agree to go buy merch if, unexpectedly, some Am decided to play Pro and wins, or to add a disclaimer that there would be no merch-for-cash on his flyer or at his players meeting (to cover an event he's unlikely to foresee).

The discussion is probably moot in a trophy only format. In a payout format you may be correct, but I think you are reading something into the rule that is not implied (or at least not intended to be implied). I would think the requirement to follow the pdga payout scale would trump.

The discussion is probably moot in a trophy only format. In a payout format you may be correct, but I think you are reading something into the rule that is not implied (or at least not intended to be implied). I would think the requirement to follow the pdga payout scale would trump.

My example, and it's a real example, is a tournament that's trophy-only for Ams but cash payout for Pros. If an Am plays Pro and places, can he demand merch in lieu of payout? What merch?

I know I'm being uncharacteristically literal in my reading. I consider it a theoretical argument, as any issues with it must be extremely rare. Almost all TDs have merchandise on hand, and the TDs benefit from giving merch instead of cash.

You could be right that any implication (that it's the TD's option to offer) wasn't intended in the rule.