jconnell
Jul 10 2012, 06:13 PM
We've all done it. We've all seen other players do it. When we're setting up to putt, and we see that two lengths of chain in the target are crossed, we jog up and shake them out. Or if the chains are pushed to the back of the slider on the chain assembly, we "fluff" them out to sit at the front of the slider so we get the maximum amount of give from the chains.

My question is, is that still legal?

It used to be. Or at least, there was an interpretation of the rules that supported its legality. Rule 803.05 used to have a clause in it allowing players to "move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round". The argument was always that the chains didn't get crossed or get pushed in prior to the round beginning, so fixing them to their "original" or "intended" place was allowed.

That clause no longer exists in the rule book. Rule 803.05 now states that "[w]ith the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described in 803.05 B, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course." All references to objects/obstacles between a lie and target and becoming a factor during the round are gone. There's absolutely no language anywhere in the rules about the original/intended/pre-round state of the course or parts of the course.

Since a target is not going to be in one's stance when attempting to putt into it, there should never be a situation in which it can be argued that the target can be moved or adjusted in any way, including moving the chains with anything other than the action of a throw/impact of a disc.

It isn't something I've ever heard or seen brought up since the last rules update, so either no one has considered it yet (after a year and a half under the new rules), no one wants to bring attention to it because they don't want to have to putt at crossed chains, or I've missed something obvious that renders the changed wording of 803.05 moot with regard to the target.

Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Did the rules committee inadvertantly outlaw the practice, or was it an intentional consequence of the rule changes? Are you going to start calling people on this now, even if it's only during a non-competitive round to mess with your buddies?

PhattD
Jul 10 2012, 06:55 PM
My first question is: What rule are you considering that would disallow it? My second comment is likely to be do you really think any one writing the rule book intended it to be illegal to "fix" a target during a round. The idea that we could somehow come up with a specific rule to govern every conceivable occurance such that there would be no room for interpretation ever is foolish. First of all the book still has to fit in a golf bag. It's really not that hard to use a little common sense and look at what the rule is trying to prevent instead of trying to find a way to call rule infractions at the drop of the hat. If you really want to take every rule literally with no room for interpretation it will make it impossible to actually complete a round.

jconnell
Jul 10 2012, 07:41 PM
My first question is: What rule are you considering that would disallow it? My second comment is likely to be do you really think any one writing the rule book intended it to be illegal to "fix" a target during a round. The idea that we could somehow come up with a specific rule to govern every conceivable occurance such that there would be no room for interpretation ever is foolish. First of all the book still has to fit in a golf bag. It's really not that hard to use a little common sense and look at what the rule is trying to prevent instead of trying to find a way to call rule infractions at the drop of the hat. If you really want to take every rule literally with no room for interpretation it will make it impossible to actually complete a round.

What rule disallows it? I posted it already. 803.05 Obstacles and Relief disallows it because it says you're not allowed to move anything that isn't in your stance or run-up (and it specifically mentions park equipment, which arguably includes the target), and even then what you can move is limited to listed items defined as casual obstacles.

I'm not bringing this up because I want to call more rules infractions. In fact, I'd rather adjusting or "fixing" the target wasn't apparently restricted or disallowed by the rules. It didn't used to be that way (against the rules). Now the wording of the rules seem to say that it is.

Roughly 18 months ago, the rule was drastically re-written in order to allow some things that were previously disallowed (moving casual obstacles in the lie that extend in front of the marker) and disallow things that were previously allowed (moving obstacles that were known to became a factor after the start of the round). My question is, am I interpreting that rule change correctly with regard to the target, and was how it affects the target intended or unintended by the rules committee.

davidsauls
Jul 10 2012, 10:30 PM
You're describing the misaligned chains as an "obstacle", and referencing the old rule on obstacles. I'm not sure I would have classified them as an obstacle, then or now. Seems an obstacle would have to be a solid object that can stop or deflect a disc before it reaches the target---not the target itself.

If anyone had an issue with it I'd just defend myself with the fairness rule.

"Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness."

As a TD, I'd accept this argument in favor of putting the chains back in order.

You can imagine beyond just straightening chains: some tournaments are played with portables, which could get knocked over or even moved by a non-disc-golfer. I don't think there'd be any issue with restoring the basket to its rightful and upright position. But I don't think there'll be a rule that specifically says you can.

davidsauls
Jul 10 2012, 10:35 PM
What rule disallows it? I posted it already. 803.05 Obstacles and Relief disallows it because it says you're not allowed to move anything that isn't in your stance or run-up (and it specifically mentions park equipment, which arguably includes the target), and even then what you can move is limited to listed items defined as casual obstacles.



I don't quite read it that way. The topic of the paragraph is obstacles to stance or run-up, and it says which ones can't be moved or which ones you're granted relief from. I read that segment as applying to the stance and run-up only.

PhattD
Jul 10 2012, 11:02 PM
So I'm not allowed to move anything that isn't specifically allowed? ie in my stance, run up ,etc. So are you going to call me on picking up garbage while I'm playing? By your interpretation of the rule I can't clean up the course while I'm playing. My point is: Yes you can read that interpretation into the rules by taking it literally. but no it is not a reasonable interpretation of the rules. And, for the record, no I don't think that you would actually call me on picking up garbage on the course I was just making the point that you could use similar logic in interpreting the rules. I would interpret the rule that a) the target is not an obstacle and b) It is ok to restore equipment to it's proper condition.

jconnell
Jul 11 2012, 12:09 AM
I don't quite read it that way. The topic of the paragraph is obstacles to stance or run-up, and it says which ones can't be moved or which ones you're granted relief from. I read that segment as applying to the stance and run-up only.

If that rule applies only to stance and run-up, then what is to prevent me from walking up and moving a trash can or a picnic table that happens to be in my throwing/rolling line?

The whole idea of whether objects between one's lie and the target can be moved was discussed a couple weeks back in this thread (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=36445). Seems to me the conclusion that one can't move obstacles, casual or not, from a follow-through area should extend all the way to and perhaps include the target.


Honestly, I posted this more to provoke some thought and discussion than because I'm convinced of anything on the topic. Since I started playing, the question of whether straightening or fluffing the chains on a target was legal has come up a lot on the course. For years, the easy answer was simply pointing out the clause about things that became a factor during the round. Now that doesn't exist so the question no longer seems to have an easy answer. So I thought I'd bring it to the forum to see where other people stood.

cgkdisc
Jul 11 2012, 12:43 AM
There's an implied assumption that the equipment on the course is already in its proper position before the event starts with tees cleared, portable baskets upright and level and chains in their proper positions. Players have the right to return official equipment to its proper status as needed. We had a Final 9 where someone had jammed a big branch into the first basket before the first throw. We saw the branch when we got in range. Without hesitation, the marshal removed the branch from the basket to return it to its proper status.

davidsauls
Jul 11 2012, 08:37 AM
If that rule applies only to stance and run-up, then what is to prevent me from walking up and moving a trash can or a picnic table that happens to be in my throwing/rolling line?



I see what you're saying, but as I read it:

(1) You can't remove any obstacles, anywhere on the course.
(2) The wording about park equipment applies specifically to relief (or lack thereof) when taking a stance.
(3) I wouldn't call tangled chains an "obstacle".

bruceuk
Jul 11 2012, 11:22 AM
We've been tossing around some wording on restoring course equipment to its intended state, which would cover allowing you to smooth a wrinkle on a tee matt, or stand up a tee sign that had been kicked over etc.

The problem with the 'factors during a round' wording is that the branch may have been lodged there for a week before the event, how would you know?

pterodactyl
Jul 11 2012, 03:03 PM
It is OK to put slider chains into their fluffy position. If so needed, I plan on doing it every chance I get next week. :)

Patrick P
Jul 11 2012, 07:02 PM
So I'm not allowed to move anything that isn't specifically allowed? ie in my stance, run up ,etc. So are you going to call me on picking up garbage while I'm playing? By your interpretation of the rule I can't clean up the course while I'm playing. My point is: Yes you can read that interpretation into the rules by taking it literally. but no it is not a reasonable interpretation of the rules. And, for the record, no I don't think that you would actually call me on picking up garbage on the course I was just making the point that you could use similar logic in interpreting the rules. I would interpret the rule that a) the target is not an obstacle and b) It is ok to restore equipment to it's proper condition. Funny you mention this. A few weeks ago a local player shared a past story in which he was playing with a World Pro Champion on his card. During the round, in front of his lie was a peice of trash. He went to pick it up and everyone on the card quickly pointed out with stern faces that he could not remove the peice of trash. Yes, they were serious, not trying to pull his leg. Luckily they only gave him a caution, no verbal warning, or in the right call, an automatic penalty stroke for removing an obstacle in front of the lie.

I can see how a peice of trash in front of the lie could be considered a visual distraction.

Patrick P
Jul 11 2012, 07:14 PM
We've all done it. We've all seen other players do it. When we're setting up to putt, and we see that two lengths of chain in the target are crossed, we jog up and shake them out. Or if the chains are pushed to the back of the slider on the chain assembly, we "fluff" them out to sit at the front of the slider so we get the maximum amount of give from the chains.

My question is, is that still legal?

Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Did the rules committee inadvertantly outlaw the practice, or was it an intentional consequence of the rule changes? Are you going to start calling people on this now, even if it's only during a non-competitive round to mess with your buddies?

800.Definitions
Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play.

Basket Target: A disc-catching device designed to clearly determine completion of a hole. A basket target generally consists of a tray, chains, chain support, and pole.

Because a basket target is independently defined and not included in the definition of an Obstacle then my conclusion is yes, you can adjust the chains to its intended position.

One may argue, well if you can move the chains what prevents you from moving the basket since it's not an obstacle? 801.04

801.04A. Playing the Stipulated Course: It is the responsibility of the player to play the course correctly.

So if a player moves the basket from the correct location, then they are subject to 801.04F: A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage has violated section 3.3 of the Competition Manual and shall be penalized in accordance with this section.

No need for any rule revisions or re-wording on this subject.

wsfaplau
Jul 11 2012, 11:20 PM
Patrick that seems completely reasonable to me