AWSmith
Apr 04 2012, 12:22 PM
What is the ruling on competitors bringing their kids along with them during tournaments?

Can I stroke the parent for the kids courtesy violations?

As a TD would I be able to ban the kids from tagging along at my tournaments?


I don't think it's fair that they are allowed. Especially if dogs are not allowed.
Reasoning:
1) Kids are often not respectful and do not understand etiquette. Constantly stopping play to explain it to them is annoying and unnecessary slow down of play.
2) I can't tell someone else's kid to be quiet without it being a big ordeal. Anyone can tell a dog to shut up without anyone getting upset.
3) Some people do not like kids, and if they are not competing they shouldn't have to be forced to interact with them.
4) Having to be overly PC in your actions and language as not to upset the parent and start more issues. Foul language slips sometimes out of everyone, but when done with a kid around, parents tend to freak out about it. Instead of just a courtesy violation warning, it becomes an ordeal and can start unnecessary group infighting.
5). They lack social skills. When someone is having an off day no reason they should have to deal with someone else's kid asking them whats wrong or other stupid questions.

krupicka
Apr 04 2012, 12:49 PM
As a TD would you tell a player who they can and cannot have as a caddy?
Would you tell spectators that they cannot watch the event?
That is what you are stepping into if you want to ban children on the course.
(I'm also assuming that you won't run Junior divisions either).

If a player has their kids along with them my understanding is that the same rules that apply to caddies would apply to the player's children. Your reasoning makes many assumptions about children that don't give the parents credit for knowing their children best and if they can handle being on the course.

wsfaplau
Apr 04 2012, 02:37 PM
I disagree kids have the same rules as caddies. They are spectators.
If fact, I believe if a players spouse wants to come to watch there is nothing stopping them from bringing along the family dog as long as the spouse and not the player holds the leash.

I certainly see the concern but I don't believe the rules can do anything about it.

jconnell
Apr 04 2012, 03:22 PM
I disagree kids have the same rules as caddies. They are spectators.
If fact, I believe if a players spouse wants to come to watch there is nothing stopping them from bringing along the family dog as long as the spouse and not the player holds the leash.

I certainly see the concern but I don't believe the rules can do anything about it.
Spectators are responsible for themselves, and can leave the group if they're bored or tired or hungry or thirsty or whatever else might induce a kid to become a nuisance. Whether they're connected to a player or not (wife, kid, well-wisher, etc), they're choosing to be there rather than being forced.

Kids are not necessarily responsible for themselves in the same way. If they wanted/needed to leave the course, the parent/player would have to leave with them, no? Therefore the burden of responsibility for their actions falls on the person who is choosing to bring them along.

To put it another way...if there were ropes holding back the spectating crowd (like at USDGC or any ball golf tournament), would the kids need to be within the ropes or outside them? If they are inside the ropes and following along with a specific player, they're the responsibility of that player. If they can be outside the ropes on their own, free to wander/leave if they so choose, they're spectators. A wife with her dog on a leash following her husband's group is inherently different than a player dragging his kid(s) along for a round because he couldn't find a babysitter.

AWSmith
Apr 04 2012, 05:49 PM
As a TD would you tell a player who they can and cannot have as a caddy?
**A caddy, no. But most kids I have been forced to play with do not do any caddying whatsoever. So yes I would tell a player they could not bring their child along with them.**

Would you tell spectators that they cannot watch the event?
**We are not talking about spectators, we are talking about someone who is actually in the group and apart of the group dynamic.**

That is what you are stepping into if you want to ban children on the course.
(I'm also assuming that you won't run Junior divisions either).
**Like I said in my post, a young competitor is different from a caddy or "tag-along." And as a PAYING competitor I would not turn them down.**


If a player has their kids along with them my understanding is that the same rules that apply to caddies would apply to the player's children. Your reasoning makes many assumptions about children that don't give the parents credit for knowing their children best and if they can handle being on the course.

No I don't think parents make the best choice. I think they make the choice that is best for THEM not the people their playing with or their child(ren). I don't see any assumptions in there. All I see is common observations about all children in any activity.

AWSmith
Apr 04 2012, 05:53 PM
Spectators are responsible for themselves, and can leave the group if they're bored or tired or hungry or thirsty or whatever else might induce a kid to become a nuisance. Whether they're connected to a player or not (wife, kid, well-wisher, etc), they're choosing to be there rather than being forced.

Kids are not necessarily responsible for themselves in the same way. If they wanted/needed to leave the course, the parent/player would have to leave with them, no? Therefore the burden of responsibility for their actions falls on the person who is choosing to bring them along.

To put it another way...if there were ropes holding back the spectating crowd (like at USDGC or any ball golf tournament), would the kids need to be within the ropes or outside them? If they are inside the ropes and following along with a specific player, they're the responsibility of that player. If they can be outside the ropes on their own, free to wander/leave if they so choose, they're spectators. A wife with her dog on a leash following her husband's group is inherently different than a player dragging his kid(s) along for a round because he couldn't find a babysitter.

Great Point.

AWSmith
Apr 04 2012, 06:04 PM
I disagree kids have the same rules as caddies. They are spectators.

Huh?????

Are you trying to say:
"I disagree that kids should have the same rules as caddies. They are spectators."


As spectators they are not apart of the group, and most spectators understand that they are not apart of the group. And I have no problem with spectators, mainly because I cannot be stroked for not being courteous to them.
But if I am not courteous to a caddy or vise versa, we are talking about a whole different thing. There in lies the problem.

Another food for thought, what if the entire group doesn't want the kid there? The whole group suffers because of the parent? Thats not fair either.

bruce_brakel
Apr 04 2012, 11:29 PM
I've never seen it. If it becomes common, we'll need a rule.

krupicka
Apr 05 2012, 08:40 AM
Time to drift...

What is the difference between a spectator and a caddy at a PDGA event? There are no ropes (or anything else) separating the players from the gallery at most events. At what point does a spectator become a caddy?
When they carry the player's bag for him for the entire round?
When they carry the player's bag for him for a couple of holes?
When they carry the player's bag between the hole and a tee for a single hole?
When they aren't carrying the player's bag, but something else? a disc or two? an umbrella? extra water? a stool that the player occasionally might use?
What if they aren't carrying anything, but are helping the player with shot/disc selection?
What if they are just walking with the player for the entire round, but conversing about everything else under the sun?
What if they are just walking with the group for the entire round?
Does anything change if the caddy/spectator happens to be a PDGA certified official?

One thing that definitely seems to transition someone from a spectator to a caddy is if they are getting paid by a player to be there. Of course, if I promise my daughter an ice cream cone if she behaves well for the round, does that then make her a caddy? :-)

bruce_brakel
Apr 05 2012, 09:47 AM
In USGA golf a caddy is the one and only person who can assist the player during the round [other than an official with the interpretation of the rules] and what makes that person the caddy is the player's designation of that person as his caddy.

AWSmith
Apr 05 2012, 04:11 PM
Time to drift...

i wouldn't call that a drift. very valid to bring up and good points

But to answer your question on who is and how you designate a caddy.

a caddy is the one and only person who can assist the player during the round [other than an official with the interpretation of the rules] and what makes that person the caddy is the player's designation of that person as [their] caddy.

I think there should some kind of rule for caddie designation in all tiers.

and there should be rules concerning spectators and/or player's entourages.

As much as i dislike the up-tightness of the PGA and other balf orgs, as far their tourny rules go I think they are spot on. Designated smoking tents, caddie designation, spectator guidelines, etc etc are all covered and definitely supports players, media, and spectators. more "professionalism" added to our sport will only make the sport as a whole look better to the sporting community.

Mashnut
Apr 17 2012, 11:15 PM
I've played two tournaments where people on my card brought their kids. One had his son walk along with him, kid was well behaved, only talked when other people on the card were talking, wasn't any more obtrusive than any other caddy would have been. Another tournament (one you helped TD Bruce IIRC) a guy had his two kids with him. It was a course with lots of long grass, the kids would walk ahead and sit out of the way in the grass, then spot for the card on every hole. They stayed out of the way and out of sight, and made it so nobody on the card had to look for a disc all round (which meant we ended up waiting on cards in front of us who spent a lot more time searching). In both scenarios I assumed that the kids were considered caddies since they were accompanying a specific player, and had there been any courtesy issues I would have treated them as such. That said, is it really that big a problem? Both of my experiences were positive, the kids were a lot less obnoxious than a whole lot of players I've shared a round with.