Angst
Jan 23 2012, 01:31 AM
Here's what happened... Player A forgets to hole out his par putt from under the basket on Hole 12. After making three throws on hole 13, he realizes that he never holed out on 12 and tells his group what happened.

My understanding is that he should have finished hole 13 as normal, and simply taken a 2 stroke penalty for not holing out as per 803.13 (2): Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.

However, his group told him he had to go back and finish hole 12 (5 = 3 + 2 stroke penalty for not finishing the hole), then re-play hole 13. He did and got a (6 = 3 + 3 strokes for the practice throws). So... what should his score on these two holes be now?

pterodactyl
Jan 23 2012, 01:53 PM
When the player went back and finished hole 12, those were practice throws too. His score for #12 should be 5 + the number of extra (practice) throws to finish the hole and an 8 on hole #13 (that's if I read it correctly and after the player already took 3 shots, he took 3 more when he inadvertantly replayed the hole. The extra 2 shots comes from the fact that the player didn't finish hole #13 the first time either...or did he. The text isn't clear).

cgkdisc
Jan 23 2012, 03:47 PM
I think Ptero's got it. I think I'd like to see something added to the Courtesy rule where other players in the group who tell a player a ruling or how to correct something without showing it in a rulebook each get a 2-throw penalty for providing incorrect information. The player who makes the mistake isn't off the hook. They still get all of the penalties and practice throws as in this example. But a future group dialog might go like this:

Player B: "Hey, Player A, you forgot to hole out on 12"
Player A: "What do I do?"
Group: "We're not sure but we think you go back and finish hole 12 and play 13 again."
Player A: "Are you sure? Is that what it says in the rulebook? Anyone have one?"
Group: "No rulebook and we're not sure. Better finish hole 12 and replay 13 as provisionals just in case we're wrong. We can then ask the TD the correct way to avoid a courtesy penalty."

bruce_brakel
Jan 23 2012, 05:04 PM
I think Ptero's got it. I think I'd like to see something added to the Courtesy rule where other players in the group who tell a player a ruling or how to correct something without showing it in a rulebook each get a 2-throw penalty for providing incorrect information. The player who makes the mistake isn't off the hook. They still get all of the penalties and practice throws as in this example. But a future group dialog might go like this:

Player B: "Hey, Player A, you forgot to hole out on 12"
Player A: "What do I do?"
Group: "We're not sure but we think you go back and finish hole 12 and play 13 again."
Player A: "Are you sure? Is that what it says in the rulebook? Anyone have one?"
Group: "No rulebook and we're not sure. Better finish hole 12 and replay 13 as provisionals just in case we're wrong. We can then ask the TD the correct way to avoid a courtesy penalty."There's really no need to punish the group. He should have just declared that he was following the group ruling provisionally, and then all those extra throws would not have counted.

cgkdisc
Jan 23 2012, 05:20 PM
While that's true, the player apparently didn't know or think of throwing provisionals and they are sometimes easily persuaded (even bullied) by more experienced players in the group who think they know the rules as in this example.

XandorF
Jan 23 2012, 06:33 PM
player A = me

so this is what happened. and i know now that i should have screamed "provisional" but was in the moment and was not thinking straight honestly. But i am interested in the official ruling for the future, and i know that i will not make the same mistake again. but in case someone else does, i feel like i should have a better understanding of the rule book. i know that it is my responsibility as a player to know the rules for myself.

shot one: up to hole 12 about 25-30' long
shot two: hits front basket and drops directly below basket
--- a small argument about courtesy between myself and another player on the card---
we collect scores, i forgot at this point who was collecting the scores, i think it might have been me. i was recorded for a '3'
all tee off hole 13-
shot three: tee off hole 13, attempted roller that hits early tree.
shot four: eagle upshot that his the big fir tree 100' short of the basket up the hill
shot six: putter upshot to the basket.
then, i realized i had just thrown one of my two putters... and the other was missing. i turned back to see it lying below the basket.
i then turned back to my group, informing them of my folly, as to not aquire anymore penalty than needed. briefly discussed what i should do as to remedy the situation. we agreed that i did not play out the hole, and needed to do so. and i would be assessed a practice stroke penalty for every shot that i took before finishing out the hole previous.
then i re-teed
shot seven: roller that actually worked this time!
shot eight: putter upshot under the basket
shot nine: in the bucket.

so recap.

1,2 shots on hole 12
1,2,3 shots on hole 13 before realizing i didnt hole out, (i did not hole out hole 13 the first time through lol)
1 shot go back and finish off hole 12
then 1, 2, 3 shots to finish out hole 13.

the way that it was explained to me from someone i hold very high regard in the disc golf community said that it should be ruled as follows.

hole 12- 4p (2 strokes that i took, and 2p for Inadvertently failing to hole out, which was agreed upon by the group)
hole 13- 9p (3 strokes that i initially took, 1 stroke that i went back and putted out on hole 12, and 3 more to finish hole 13. so 7 strokes on hole 13 in total with a 2p for playing the hole incorrectly. incorrectly by doubling back when i didnt need to, and playing my shots out of order.)

this is close to what pterodactyl said (with the 5p on 12, and 8p on 13) which would add to the same total of 13pp for the two holes combined. Which of these is correct?
is it 4p + 9p, or 5p + 8p? at this point im convinced its one of these options.

thanks to everyone for helping out with this one. chalk this one up for 'live and learn'... ive lived it, now im trying to learn it in more detail.

-xander waibel #41673

cgkdisc
Jan 23 2012, 07:34 PM
It's really 2+2p on hole 12, 3+2p on 13 and 4 practice throws, which technically don't have to be assigned to a specific hole, although the convention is to apply them on the hole where they occurred. So probably entering 5 and 8 on holes 12 & 13 would be typical. Entering 4 and 5 could also be done with the 4 practice shots entered at the end of the card sort of like how penalties are indicated for not adding the score correctly.

JoakimBL
Jan 24 2012, 06:07 AM
I'm not saying my points are correct, but for arguments sake:

If you count the first 3 throws on hole 13 as practice throws, prior to holing out on 12, he did not play either hole incorrectly?

Or, if it's too late, when the next hole is started, the hole out put on 12 does not count as a practice shot, since it is more than likely less than 2 meters and not towards the basket on hole 13, as described in Xanders post.

cgkdisc
Jan 24 2012, 07:46 AM
The practice throw rule technically says "any distance toward a target," not just your current target. So his last shot on 12 would still be a practice throw even if just a drop-in.

JoakimBL
Jan 24 2012, 09:04 AM
If that is the official interpretation, then i don't see how you can place your discs in your bag and not be called for at practice throw. On a course, not many places will have a direction that is not "toward a target" if any target is "a target". Standing on the tee deciding wich disc to use and dropping the one you're not going to throw behind you, will in many case be towards the previous target. So should I "technically" call a pratice throw on that?

cgkdisc
Jan 24 2012, 10:01 AM
Just posting what the rules say, not whether I think there might be an issue along the lines of your question. On the other hand, your comment that the player dropping the disc in the basket on hole 12 wouldn't be a practice throw wouldn't be in the spirit of the game either if the practice throw rule were written as you originally thought.

JoakimBL
Jan 24 2012, 10:37 AM
I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation either, just making the argument. I don't like the current definition of practice throw, but acknowledge that there needs to be a rule against it, and that it is extremely difficult to define exactly what constitutes one.

wsfaplau
Jan 24 2012, 01:36 PM
The practice throw rule technically says "any distance toward a target," not just your current target. So his last shot on 12 would still be a practice throw even if just a drop-in.

No. That is ridiculous.

The lie and stance rules also don't specify the hole is the current hole.

Ridiculous.

cgkdisc
Jan 24 2012, 04:04 PM
wsfaplau - The lie and stance rules also don't specify the hole is the current hole.
I believe they do considering the terms "the hole" and "line of play" are used and the LOP definition uses "the" target not "a" target.

chappyfade
Feb 02 2012, 02:10 AM
You shouldn't have been penalized 2 throws for "playing the hole incorrectly". You do get the 4 practice throws, so score 4 on hole 12, and 7 on hole 13.

Once you threw that first shot on hole 13, you were stuck with the +2 penalty on hole 12 (although if you think about it, is really effectively only a one throw penalty, because you would have scored a 3 on 12 if you had holed out properly).

Always announce you're playing provisionals if you're unsure.