Spinthrift
Nov 21 2011, 12:25 PM
At one of our courses the baskets have three inner chains, each hanging loosely in a "U" shape, the ends only secured at the top. This leads to a good number of cut-throughs due to the loose inner chains.

A proposal to improve the baskets is to use S-hooks to link the bottom of the U-shaped inner chains to the chain ring or a lower link in the outer chains, reducing the number of cut-throughs because the chains then offer more resistance.

One of our club officers said that making that modification would make the baskets illegal for PDGA play since the target's chain configuration would then be unapproved.

Would securing the inner chains at the bottom make the baskets not legal for a PDGA tourney?

krupicka
Nov 21 2011, 12:50 PM
It depends on the Tier of the tourney.

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/TourStandards.pdf

But I also don't know of any currently approved baskets that have chains only secured at the top. These baskets are probably already post-production modified.

davidsauls
Nov 21 2011, 01:02 PM
From a practical standpoint, unless it's a high-tier I doubt the PDGA's Basket Enforecement Division will come down too hard on you.

It's a good theoretical question......but we've made lots of changes---improvements---at Earlewood and the thought of invalidating the baskets for tournament play never even crossed our minds.

jconnell
Nov 21 2011, 07:10 PM
There are no specifications in the Tech Standards regarding chain configuration, only the minimum number of strands required at the "Standard" and "Championship" levels. So connecting your loops of chain at the bottom would not render the targets illegal.

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGATechStandards_8_1_11.doc.pdf (pg 7)

cgkdisc
Nov 21 2011, 07:30 PM
If the current targets are not an original equipment design that was/is PDGA Approved, it doesn't matter what you do to modify the chain configuration. They still wouldn't be approved. If it is an Approved target, then the Tech Standards link in jconnell's post above shows the legal options for modifying internal chain patterns to keep the target approved.

jconnell
Nov 22 2011, 12:28 PM
If the current targets are not an original equipment design that was/is PDGA Approved, it doesn't matter what you do to modify the chain configuration. They still wouldn't be approved. If it is an Approved target, then the Tech Standards link in jconnell's post above shows the legal options for modifying internal chain patterns to keep the target approved.
Based on the description the OP provided, I'm assuming these targets are early generation Discatchers, back when they only had the single set of outer chains. Innova sold (or recommended) internal chain modification packages for those targets that involved chains looped and attached only at the top chain assembly. So my guess is that the targets, as is, are PDGA approved, and therefore modifying the chain configuration would not render them disapproved.

cgkdisc
Nov 22 2011, 01:05 PM
The new specs do not allow adding internal chains if provided by the manufacturer which they are in this case.

bgwvdave
Nov 22 2011, 06:26 PM
I'm assuming these targets are early generation Discatchers, back when they only had the single set of outer chains.
This is the exactly correct.

eupher61
Nov 24 2011, 04:24 AM
The new specs do not allow adding internal chains if provided by the manufacturer which they are in this case.

??????????????

cgkdisc
Nov 24 2011, 10:15 AM
You cannot add inner chains other than what is available from the manufacturer if they provide an inner chain upgrade kit. You can add your own version of inner chains if the manuifacturer does not provide an inner chain upgrade kit.

jconnell
Nov 26 2011, 11:28 AM
You cannot add inner chains other than what is available from the manufacturer if they provide an inner chain upgrade kit. You can add your own version of inner chains if the manuifacturer does not provide an inner chain upgrade kit.
And if I'm reading the original post correctly, they're not adding inner chains. They're proposing to take the inner chains, purchased from the manufacturer and already installed on the target, and modify the way they are attached to the target.

And in reading the tech standards, there is nothing to prevent them from doing so as there are no specific standards regarding chain configuration and how they are attached to the target. But let's keep conflating the original question with stuff that has nothing to do with what was asked.

cgkdisc
Nov 26 2011, 12:14 PM
A target is approved based on the chain configuration and installation procedure provided by the manufacturer. There is no provision for changing that configuration in the field by moving those chains around or configuring them in a different way AND still retaining approval. If someone wishes to experiment with different internal chain patterns, purchase approved targets where the manufacturer does not provide an inner chain set. Then, experiment all you wish as long as your experiments remain inside the outer chain envelope.

16670
Nov 26 2011, 12:54 PM
in other words if you havent paid the PDGA to approve all parts and configurations its not approved its all about the $.But run whatever tourny you want on whatever baskets you have and as long as you send your fees to the PDGA nothing will happen. The day someone calls the PDGA to complain about an unapproved basket at an event and the PDGA revokes sanctioning "and sends back all the fees"will never happen...ITS ALL ABOUT THE $!!!!

cgkdisc
Nov 26 2011, 01:25 PM
There are basket standards for each tier. But if players don't report issues, they can't be enforced just like foot fault calls. Note that the PDGA Course Directory does indicate what type of baskets a course has. You presume the Tour Director does not check if it might be questionable? Basket standards have been enforced at higher tier events for at least five years now when PDGA officials have been involved.

eupher61
Nov 27 2011, 06:11 AM
Chuck, I guess I'm getting bogged down in rhetoric here.

The way I'm reading it, I think..
Chains can be added in two ways: a kit offered by the manufacturer, or custom work by the (erstwhile) owner of the basket. If the manufacturer offers the kit, that is a legal modification. If the manufacturer does not offer a kit, or a modification is done other than by use of said kit, the mod is not legal.

Is that correct?

Your earlier statement had me baffled, saying it can't be done unless it can. Made no sense, and the clarification didn't help me much. Sorry to drag out the minutia, one of my many faults. I blame my dad in this case.

cgkdisc
Nov 27 2011, 11:25 AM
eupher61 - Chains can be added in two ways: a kit offered by the manufacturer, or custom work by the (erstwhile) owner of the basket. If the manufacturer offers the kit, that is a legal modification. If the manufacturer does not offer a kit, or a modification is done other than by use of said kit, the mod is not legal.
What you cannot do to retain approval is to add your own inner chains nor modify the inner chain set where the manufacturer supplies an inner chain conversion kit. If an approved target does not have inner chains and the manufacturer does not provide an inner conversion kit, you can create whatever modification you want as long as it stays inside the outer chain envelope. That can be made of chains or any other material you might want to try.