go18under
Sep 13 2011, 03:12 PM
Here is something I think would take Disc Golf to the next level..feedback is appreciated:)


Professional Disc Golf Association-PDGA

$200 Membership: 3 Divisions Only (M/W)-Open, Masters, Grandmasters

Open Men/Women (950/850 and over required), 50 + (no rating required), 65+ (no rating required)

4 Majors-1 Worlds
� Spring-Memorial-$200 entry
� Spring-Japan-$200 entry
� Summer-Europe-$200 entry
� Summer-USDGC-$200 entry
� World Championships-$250 entry

PDGA Key Events:
� Ryder/Presidents Cup (Alternate between Europe Course and IDGC)-$5000 Team Entry
� Doubles Championships (IDGC)-$500 team entry
� Masters Championships (IDGC)-$200 entry
� Match Play Championships (IDGC)-$200 entry

12 A Tiers-5K minimum (only 10-12 will be selected)-$150 entry (National Tour Point Series)

$500 Sanction Fee Up Front (No Player Fees)

A Tier Requirements-18 holes per round only/quality courses/experienced TD�s and staff/good baskets/pads/facilities

No Final Nines (except for Worlds)!!! Minimum 72 holes with a cut line after 3 rounds for all A Tiers and Majors

PDGA A Tier Match Program (match any money added by the 12 selected A Tiers) With the 5k match program, $200 Entry fees, and minimum amount of pro tournaments, all 20 PDGA events should be a $50,000 minimum purse at each event (200 players)�..that will raise some eyebrows!!

PDGA staff will attend and bring all marketing material, video production, to all selected cities

Pro Only Website, Pro Only Marketing, Pro Only Video Production, Pro Only Sponsors, Pro Only Magazine, Pro Only Committee/Board/Tour Manager

� All resources can be focused on these 20 or so events. This will create tradition, and urgency to sign up early since there are only 20 Pro events offered in the world each year�..

� This will also create a Professional image which disc golf desperately needs. The exclusiveness and focus on the PDGA tournaments will create a buzz that our sport has never seen.

� Easier to manage��.quality control



Amateur Disc Golf Association-ADGA

$50 Membership Due

No Tiers!! Just ADGA Sanctioned Disc Golf Tournaments!!

$50 Sanction Fee Up Front��. $2 Per Player for any ADGA Tourney.

All ADGA Sanctioned Tournaments-$20-$40 only! (TD discretion)

1 Day/2 Day/3 Day/Fivesomes/Temp Holes/Tree Baskets/Final Nines/Whatever

Bare Minimum Requirements (no 10 dollar fee for non-members, just scores, courses, format, player names/#�s required for TD report�.no financials except the $2 per player and $50 sanction fee!!)

Player Pack and trophy only for top finishers required by ADGA (TD discretion on payouts, if any)

ADGA Major Events:
� Amateur Doubles Championships (IDGC)-$200 per team
� Jr. Amateur Championships (IDGC)-$50
� Amateur Masters Championships (IDGC)-$100
� US Amateur Championships (IDGC)-$100
� European Amateur Championships-$100
� Japan Amateur Championships-$100
� World Amateur Championships-$150
� Collegiate Championships

Divisions:
� Boy/Girl Jr-14 and under (under 800 rated only) (Jr. Division)
� Men/Women Amateur (under 900-800) (Amateur Division)
� Men/Women Advanced Amateur (under 970-900)* (Advanced Amateur Division)
� Men/Women Over 50 (under 950) (Am Masters Division)
� Men/Women Over 65 (under 950) (Am Grandmasters Division)

*If a player wants to keep their amateur status and rack up players packs and trophies�.that�s fine.

* Once an amateur exceeds 950/850 rating, they can compete in PDGA tournaments��but must sign up as a Professional the following year�.player can still compete in ADGA events unless��

*If a player exceeds 970/900 rating, they are no longer eligible for ADGA events. (No Am Point System)

� ADGA Committee can focus on amateur, recreational, and youth disc golfers��EDGE Program�etc., without the bitterness of payouts, points, tiers, financials to deal with.

davidsauls
Sep 13 2011, 03:41 PM
My knee-jerk skeptical thought would be that this would be a boon to the non-sanctioned tournament scene (at least for a while).

bravo
Sep 13 2011, 04:50 PM
ask any little boy or girl if they want what the daddy and mommy said they cant have.
if daddy and mommy are there they may say no.
if mommy and daddy are not there they may also say no but more than likely they will say yes.
disc golf tourneys will happen weather or not the pdga is part of them.
disc golf will grow with or without pdga sanctioning.
that being said the idea of bigger government comes to my mind.
the players want to play for the most part.
the tourney directors want to give to the sport that they love.
the pdga needs to charge the players to grow the sport?
there is certainly costs involved in running an organization the size of the pdga.
the members want ratings and other benifits that cost something.
the right source is the member driven pdga.
not all members want the same thing except to play the game we enjoy.
i wish it was just that easy.

go18under
Sep 13 2011, 05:08 PM
My knee-jerk skeptical thought would be that this would be a boon to the non-sanctioned tournament scene (at least for a while).

Am Tournaments would be ADGA (Amateur Disc Golf Association) sanctioned, and they will get ratings, and player packs at every event.

The ADGA would have it's own tour manager, and committee.

The way the PDGA is set up right now, and they will be the first to tell you, they are not in the business of making sure pros can make money on tour.

Separating the Pro and Am Associations would allow more focus and create more quality growth on both sides....IMO:)

davidsauls
Sep 13 2011, 06:17 PM
There are about 50 points in your original post, some more valid than others. I'll skip the ideas I agree with.

I don't think the Pro part would fly at all. As long as pros are just paying for each other's money, upping the ante (huge membership and entry fees) just runs off those unlikely to cash, so the big payouts are likely to dwindle. USDGC pulled off $200 entry fees by being unique, but I doubt you could do so on the scale you propose.

Bouncing Ams who reach a certain level to an unpleasant pro situation just bounces them out of disc golf. Oh, the ones destined for 1030 ratings might plow their way through. The ones destined to peak at 980-1000 wouldn't.

The Am side isn't as bad, but why mandate players packs? I hate them. What does "TD's discretion" mean on entry fees and payouts---if he can exceed the stated entry fees, why state them?

It looks sorta' like a "kick-the-pros-out-of-the-PDGA" proposal.

go18under
Sep 14 2011, 01:48 AM
A Real Pro Tour with an Association backing them only, would be something new.

The "PDGA" will tell you up front they promote growth, youth, and recreational disc golf more than anything else, which amateur tournaments are a huge part of.......so why not try 2 Associations?

The players packs, trophies, entry fees, and TD payout discretion keeps it affordable for all amateurs, and gives good td's a chance to shine by running good tournaments with return customers.

The "payouts" for Ams are the worst thing that happened to Disc Golf culture. People have to sit around for 11th place rec finisher getting their disc or two....then they complain about the amount, type, weight, etc...

I've heard pros complain about the money they get paid out at B and C tiers all the time.....if I'm in charge, I want the Pros as far away from the Ams as possible...lol.

Let's just go back to basics....the proposed 2 associations is the only way I see either side growing to the level we want it to.

The current PDGA does a good job with it's current set up, but how can they truly put their full efforts into growing Professional and Amateur golf together??

This is a good problem, because it means we are growing to the point where we need to make a true commitment to both!

eupher61
Sep 14 2011, 03:12 AM
I've posed this question before: Is the PDGA the Association of Professional Disc Golfers or the Professional Association of Disc Golf?

(hint, it's the latter.)

Big difference. Frankly, it's a shame they didn't choose a different name to start with, when the changeover from DGA to PDGA happened.

Karl
Sep 14 2011, 11:17 AM
"Bouncing Ams who reach a certain level to an unpleasant pro situation just bounces them out of disc golf."

Go18Under, you didn't address the point David made (quoted above).
It would kill me (drive me out)...and I'm sure I'm not the only one....

One should never force someone to "go Pro".

Karl

go18under
Sep 14 2011, 11:55 AM
"Bouncing Ams who reach a certain level to an unpleasant pro situation just bounces them out of disc golf."

Go18Under, you didn't address the point David made (quoted above).
It would kill me (drive me out)...and I'm sure I'm not the only one....

One should never force someone to "go Pro".

Karl

OK, what are some solutions, keeping the concept of having 2 separate associations?

Looking forward, if there are only 20 or so Pro tournaments per year......I would be willing to bet more Ams would want to test their skills if they qualify, and I think it would push more disc golfers to get better.

Maybe in my proposal, you don't have to go pro if you don't want to??

I still firmly believe having 2 Associations is in the best interest for growing our sport to ESPN level of interest.

cgkdisc
Sep 14 2011, 12:05 PM
Some pros have tried and are still trying to figure out how to have their own pro group that would probably affiliate with the PDGA at arm's length. But they haven't done it yet. I believe that's the only way it will happen. I don't see the PDGA splitting because some think it might be better.

go18under
Sep 14 2011, 12:32 PM
Some pros have tried and are still trying to figure out how to have their own pro group that would probably affiliate with the PDGA at arm's length. But they haven't done it yet. I believe that's the only way it will happen. I don't see the PDGA splitting because some think it might be better.

Pandora's box has been opened:)

I believe Brian Graham, Mr Deusler, DGentry, and a couple other select personal (you) could kick the doors down of some main sponsors, and manage a top notch Pro Association, if that's all they would have to focus on.

Dedicating a video production/marketing team to the 20 or so Pro events I proposed would also help getting the sport out to the mainstream.

Would it be profitable?? Probably not at first, but it would shine the light on our stars, which would trickle down ten fold to the ADGA (Am Association), and recreational play.

Nike could take over the Pro Tour in a heart beat......make discs, bags, shirts, etc.

Love to hear some more feedback:)

Change is hard.....it's time.

DShelton
Sep 14 2011, 01:57 PM
OK, what are some solutions, keeping the concept of having 2 separate associations?

Looking forward, if there are only 20 or so Pro tournaments per year......I would be willing to bet more Ams would want to test their skills if they qualify, and I think it would push more disc golfers to get better.

Maybe in my proposal, you don't have to go pro if you don't want to??

I still firmly believe having 2 Associations is in the best interest for growing our sport to ESPN level of interest.

As an Am, I see a few problems.

First, If you have to be a PDGA member to play a tiered tournament, then you've just forced the Ams to go Pro. There is no "testing the waters".

Also, with the way things are now, us lowly unworthy ;) Ams can hobnob with the pros and maybe get a chance to throw discs with them from time to time. With two different associations, we are relegated to being simply spectators that might be able to get an autograph, if we're lucky.

Lastly, once the DG world is strongly split between Pro and Am Associations, sooner or later (probably sooner) the Am side would become short funded and eventually disappear all together, leaving the AMs with no real support.

That just covers the players. That doesn't take into consideration where all that money the purse is going to come from. Remember, we are looked at as a fringe sport and honestly isn't worth the money to many potential sponsors. You have to prove to them why the sport of disc golf is worth their investment (aka their bottom line).

eupher61
Sep 14 2011, 02:37 PM
To say "Nike could take over the pro tour in a heartbeat" is wishful thinking at best. What if they don't want it? (hint: if they wanted any part of disc golf, they'd be in it by now.)

I think the Cardinals should pick up Sabethia, Verlander, and Halladay. They can trade some prospects for those guys, the Yankees, Tigers, and Phillies need prospects. Easy, right?

krupicka
Sep 14 2011, 02:37 PM
Let's see. A lot of Pros would no longer renew their membership because it's too expensive.
A lot of Ams would never become members because there is no $10 fee incentive.
This proposal should pretty much shrink membership to nothing in 18 months or so.

bruce_brakel
Sep 14 2011, 05:24 PM
The pros will separate from the ams as soon as it makes financial sense to the pros. Right now, most pros realize they need the ams to pay for the pavillion rental, the sanctioning, the insurance, the spray paint and the $500 added at the B-tier. And most TDs know that they need the pros to help promote the tournament to the ams. So long as the profit made on the ams is a significant supplement to the added cash and a means to pay the tournament expenses, the ams and pros will be one large dysfunctional family. :p

gotcha
Sep 14 2011, 07:23 PM
Could the Professional Disc Golf Association create/operate the Amatuer Disc Golf Association as a separate division of the organization? In other words, same legal entity dba ADGA?

jmonny
Sep 14 2011, 09:47 PM
OK, what are some solutions, keeping the concept of having 2 separate associations?


I still firmly believe having 2 Associations is in the best interest for growing our sport to ESPN level of interest.

The only way to grow our sport to ESPN level of interest is with lots of $$$$$$$.
The Gatorade PDGA, Budweiser, Sharpie, McDonalds, Nike, Reebok, Buick, Apple, and so on. Just take your pick and sell the sport. Good luck.

davidsauls
Sep 15 2011, 12:04 PM
The greater likelihood is that, regardless of what we do, disc golf will never reach big bucks / national sponsor / national TV / ESPN status. For oft-stated reasons.

Without which, it's hard to imagine a separate Pro organization. Certainly not with the high-entry-costs outlined in this thread.

But if it does happen to any degree, it won't be from kicking down doors with our present membership / participation / spectator numbers. It'll be an outgrowth of increasing disc golf's grassroots 50-fold, and perhaps with a surge in organized interscholastic, especially intercollegiate, play.

nez
Sep 15 2011, 12:28 PM
This is a great discussion! The Board has been looking at this general concept for the past 6-9 mo., and will debate this further at the Fall Summit coming up the end of this month. I'm intrigued by some of the ideas being thrown out here, and also some of the concerns expressed that have to be overcome.

davidsauls
Sep 15 2011, 01:28 PM
It seems to me that most of the "Pros"---the local and regional players filling the C-, B-, and maybe even A-teirs---have much more in common with the Advanced players than they do with the Touring Pros.

The Touring Pros, and I guess the top regional pros as well, are a pretty small segment of the membership. They're really the ones with an interest in bigger payouts.

PhattD
Sep 15 2011, 11:02 PM
The pros will separate from the ams as soon as it makes financial sense to the pros. Right now, most pros realize they need the ams to pay for the pavillion rental, the sanctioning, the insurance, the spray paint and the $500 added at the B-tier. And most TDs know that they need the pros to help promote the tournament to the ams. So long as the profit made on the ams is a significant supplement to the added cash and a means to pay the tournament expenses, the ams and pros will be one large dysfunctional family. :p

I agree with most of this except that the ams need the pros to promote the tournament. The am part of the tournament is what makes the money. The only reason companies sponsor althetes is because they make money off of the athlete helping to sell their product. The only reason country clubs pay golf pros to show up is because they make money on the spectators that come to watch the pros play. Profesional disc golf is not economically viable right now and to be honest I doubt it will ever be. Amateur disc golf, on the other hand, moves more plastic for innova and discraft than all of the pro players combined. If we were to split into separate clubs it is the pro club that would wither and die.

havasuDG
Sep 15 2011, 11:33 PM
Have we addressed the fact that you're suggesting such a small number of Pro events per year? What if you're a 970-990 rated regional player. You can't afford to make it to many big events, but love to play the game. You no longer can play the "Am" events, and now there are only 20 events you could potentially play yearly period? As an "almost pro" 968 guy who expects to be over that 970 mark within a year I would hate not being able to play tournaments only because I'd be deemed to good to be an am, but not in any sort of position where it was feasible to travel to these handful of "pro events"

bruce_brakel
Sep 16 2011, 12:58 AM
Have we addressed the fact that you're suggesting such a small number of Pro events per year? What if you're a 970-990 rated regional player. You can't afford to make it to many big events, but love to play the game. You no longer can play the "Am" events, and now there are only 20 events you could potentially play yearly period? As an "almost pro" 968 guy who expects to be over that 970 mark within a year I would hate not being able to play tournaments only because I'd be deemed to good to be an am, but not in any sort of position where it was feasible to travel to these handful of "pro events"Those pros would not be excluded from most events because they run a lot of events! I'm pretty sure they would find ways to include themselves in the tournaments they were running.

gotcha
Sep 16 2011, 08:55 AM
Have we addressed the fact that you're suggesting such a small number of Pro events per year? What if you're a 970-990 rated regional player. You can't afford to make it to many big events, but love to play the game. You no longer can play the "Am" events, and now there are only 20 events you could potentially play yearly period?

I interpret the original post as the PDGA focusing on a total of 20 "pro only" events. You know, the big tournaments to showcase our top players. Perhaps the original poster was thinking NT events rather than "A-tier" events? With the exponential growth of the sport and membership, the need for B & C tier events is obvious. These smaller events could be combined as pro/am tournaments as they are today and jointly sanctioned by the PDGA and the ADGA.

I would disagree with an annual membership fee of $200. I would also disagree with moving the masters age to 50, however; I would not be opposed to increasing the masters age to 45 (I hit that number in a few weeks :)).

go18under
Sep 16 2011, 04:37 PM
Good stuff!! The numbers I presented above are just examples, and suggestions. I would like to address a few points.

To the regional 970-990 player who can't afford to travel.....maybe the ADGA could manage a semi-pro division??

As far as high Pro member dues....$200 per is how we would pay the board that will go out and find us Pro sponsors.....

the $50 Am member fee without the $10 non member fee is fine, and would not deplete membership. If you are not a member, you don't get to see your name on the website......maybe paid members can get a shirt with their number on it each year??

Maybe the tweener pros (970-999) as mentioned above can pay $100 and play in the ADGA semi pro division, and make 1000 rated and above pay the $200 and only play pro tourneys??

And when I mentioned Nike could run a Pro tour in a heartbeat....I'm just saying they would be the ideal choice.

As far as ams needing pros to survive...I disagree. Raising 1,2,3,4 thousand dollars to add to a pro purse is great for the pros. But it's usually coming out of the ams pockets.......then at awards or final nines, there are only a handful of ams around watching or listening. The only thing ams learn from pros is how to complain and whine:)

We have to get aggressive selling our sport and marketing/protecting our top players, instead of tearing them down, and trying to expose them. Example: Over 50% of NBA players smoke pot, cheat on their wives, and hang around with thugs, but you never hear anything about it.....

The grass roots approach we have been taking for the last 50 years is working fine for growing disc golf and recreational players. If we want to take our sport to the next level, major changes like the ones I proposed are in order. We need aggressive sales people who know how to close deals and ask for money. We need a pro marketing machine that creates urgency for companies to be a part of this up and coming sport.

Keep em coming, I hope the board is reading this.

nez
Sep 17 2011, 10:40 AM
Keep em coming, I hope the board is reading this.
Yes, they are.

Nez
PDGA Board President

go18under
Sep 17 2011, 11:31 PM
Yes, they are.

Nez
PDGA Board President

cool....

I've been involved in Disc Golf for 15 years....watched Bowling Green KY rape amateurs for over 10 years straight.

It's time to rock the same ol same ol routine of running tournaments, and the way our association is set up.

I strongly believe the amount of tournaments is actually holding our sport back.

Here in Bowling Green, we probably have several thousand recreational players, since we have 9 courses within 15 minutes, but hardly any of them play tournaments.

Why would they want to play a Professional Disc Golf Association tournament?? Thats the first banner they see when they come to the parks.....it gives the wrong first impression. I think if we offered an amateur disc golf association tournament, it would increase the numbers of amateurs in our sport.

With the proposed solution I laid out, amateurs would have more fun, and it would increase the amount of players wanting to move up to the professional ranks.

Most of the feedback I see is negative.....why is everybody afraid of taking a chance??

Disc Golf has been a blessing in my life, and I know if we work hard enough, it will be on ESPN before long. But, we need aggressive changes and take chance......what do we have to lose??

I was at the summit meeting a few years ago, and was amazed of the cash flow the PDGA maintains. Brian Graham and his staff are doing a great job, and I think if we gave him some freedom to take chances, they would come through with flying colors!!

gotcha
Sep 18 2011, 08:20 AM
cool....

I strongly believe the amount of tournaments is actually holding our sport back.



Seriously?

Yesterday, Brad Schick and I were talking about today's numbers of PDGA events. Players have more choices now than ever before. That's actually a good thing. There were times during the 90s that you would look through the tournament schedule and the closest tournament on any given weekend might be 8 hours away from your home city. Or one might get really excited when there were actually two tournaments near your city within the same month. :)

Though it is often difficult to choose which event you might like to play nowadays (I've flipped a coin to decide), having more courses and more tournaments to choose from is better than it used to be. This is not to say we do not need to continually look for areas of improvement within the management structure of our associated players. It should go without saying that we need to continue to grow the "base" of players and the number of disc golf courses in the ground. We are still a long way from being a mainstream sport, but the good news is we are growing exponentially. The more recreational players we have throwing plastic worldwide will result in an increasing number of competitors within our player association(s).

sammyshaheen
Sep 18 2011, 08:56 AM
Great discussion.
Lower fees for membership makes sense to me.
Why not have a $25 per year fee and if you aren't a member
you don't play in any events. No temp memberships.

Glad to see a board member on this discussion. Also glad to hear
the board is discussing the possible split between Ams/pros. Sounds
progressive and open minded. Keep up the good work.

jconnell
Sep 18 2011, 01:17 PM
I strongly believe the amount of tournaments is actually holding our sport back.
I agree with gotcha here. There's no way having more tournaments is a bad thing. It creates competition which in turn increases quality. If there's only one tournament within 500 miles of me on a given weekend, and it's run like crap year after year, what does that gain for the sport? It sucks for the players because if they want to play that weekend, it's a crap choice or nothing. And if the players have no other choices, where's the motivation for the organizers to improve their product? They've effectively got a captive audience.

To that end...
I've been involved in Disc Golf for 15 years....watched Bowling Green KY rape amateurs for over 10 years straight.
Have you ever considered offering an alternative option for these supposedly victimized players? Run a tournament that isn't like the others, that doesn't "rape" the amateurs? Competition might improve the quality all around. The solution might be MORE choices right in town, rather than fewer. If you offer something that the other tournaments don't, and you draw in all the disenfranchised players as well as new ones, maybe that's just the wake up the established tournaments need to change and improve what they're doing.

Here in Bowling Green, we probably have several thousand recreational players, since we have 9 courses within 15 minutes, but hardly any of them play tournaments.
I think you'll find that's the truth no matter where you go and what you do. Not everyone is out to play competitively. For every go18under in an area, there are probably 100 disc golfers that have zero interest in doing anything more than going out to their favorite course and goofing around with their buddies.

Think about how many duffers populate the golf courses across the country, and how many of them ever compete outside betting in their own foursome? I'd bet there's at least 100 recreational golfer for every "competitive" one, even if you count the guys who's only competitive rounds are their company's annual scramble or their club's annual championship.

Why would they want to play a Professional Disc Golf Association tournament??
Are you sure it's the PDGA part that's the hindrance? Or is it possibly simply that they don't want to play tournaments at all. I know I'm repeating myself, but that is the core question, IMO. I've seen it first-hand working at a disc golf course for the last seven years. We have thousands of people that play every year, but out of those, I don't there's been 100 people in total that have played more than one tournament in those seven years. Sure we have a dozen or so that went from casual players to hard-core tournament junkies, but for the most part, players just aren't interested in playing competitively with any seriousness. We offer PDGAs (B-tier), we offer non-sanctioned, we even offer beginners-only, but it doesn't really make a difference. People would rather go out and play 18 at their own pace (sometimes with their own rules) than compete against other people. No matter how much promoting we do of the tournaments in the pro shop, and how much cajoling we do of the players, their only question is whether the course will be closed to casual play on tournament day or not.

What I've realized over the last few years is that growing the competitive ranks isn't a matter of convincing more people who already play to get into tournaments. The ratio of competitive players to casual players remains pretty constant...so the only way to get more competitive players is to get more players, period. So it doesn't matter what the competitive structure looks like or pro vs am organizations...it only matters what is being done to get more people playing at all.

go18under
Sep 18 2011, 02:30 PM
good feedback John.....

When I said the amount of tournaments is holding our sport back, I meant the amount of quality tournaments......also, if we just have ADGA tournaments, I think numbers would increase.

Pros don't drive Am tournament attendance at all. Well run events, and an amateur environment should drive more numbers in our sport.

Let the pros (over 1000 rated) have their own tour, I mentioned above.......keep them away from Am events. Clubs have to add temp holes, and have fivesomes to accommodate the numbers as it is.....which hurts our product imo.

Then the ams complain about payouts, and look at the pros pocketing the cash, which builds resent among the amateurs.......then the pros complain about the weak payouts, and take it out on the TD, which turns him/her off from running any more tournaments......it's a sick cycle we need to stop now, it's ruining our culture. It should be about fellowship and competition.


I see the PDGA has $643,000 dollars in our bank account....what are we saving it for?

davidsauls
Sep 19 2011, 09:40 AM
Disc Golf has been a blessing in my life, and I know if we work hard enough, it will be on ESPN before long. But, we need aggressive changes and take chance......what do we have to lose??



Some of us believe that disc golf will never be on ESPN, no matter how hard we work or what we do, and will not attract big-bucks national sponsors, no matter how hard we pursue them.

If we're correct, a separate pro organization makes little sense. It's a recreational sport, and the pros are just the highest of many divisions.

It's hard for us to see how the pros are holding the sport back, especially since we've seen phenomenal growth of the sport over the years.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, of course.

davidsauls
Sep 19 2011, 09:47 AM
cool....

I've been involved in Disc Golf for 15 years....watched Bowling Green KY rape amateurs for over 10 years straight.



Never been there so have no idea, but I'm astonished that those raped Ams continue to flock there in great numbers, freely choosing Bowling Green over other tournaments. Makes you wonder.

johnbiscoe
Sep 19 2011, 10:22 AM
Some of us believe that disc golf will never be on ESPN, no matter how hard we work or what we do, and will not attract big-bucks national sponsors, no matter how hard we pursue them.



^^^this. dg's model should be softball- enjoyed/recognized by the masses but almost never on the boob tube.

johnbiscoe
Sep 19 2011, 10:26 AM
Great discussion.
Lower fees for membership makes sense to me.



^^^this too...

oklaoutlaw
Sep 19 2011, 10:54 AM
Could the Professional Disc Golf Association create/operate the Amatuer Disc Golf Association as a separate division of the organization? In other words, same legal entity dba ADGA?

The Amatuer Disc Golf Association (ADGA) already exists as a Delaware corporation and is in the process of launching its website before the end of 2011.

Look for it.

krupicka
Sep 19 2011, 11:13 AM
Good luck on the TM fight.

go18under
Sep 19 2011, 01:36 PM
The Amatuer Disc Golf Association (ADGA) already exists as a Delaware corporation and is in the process of launching its website before the end of 2011.

Look for it.

Can you elaborate please?

Is this a Delaware thing or national?

Will the ADGA compete against the PDGA and charge member dues?

What are the advantages of joining the ADGA?

How do other towns and cities become involved?

dscmn
Sep 26 2011, 06:31 PM
I disagree that a split of the pdga into an amateur and a professional organization would grow the sport of disc golf. On the contrary, I believe a marriage between the amateur and professional ranks in disc golf would do far more to grow the sport of disc golf, eliminate the real and perceived differences that currently define the relationship between professional and amateur players and strengthen the pdga as the governing body of disc golf.

No more amateur and no more professional disc golfers. Just disc golfers.

And then a split does need to occur--not between so-called pros and so-called ams but between tournament styles--open and divisional. Open is not a division, it is a tournament style. No more am-scam--where the ams feel that their entry fees are going to the professional payout. No more big payments to protected ams--when everyone is in a division and being paid out accordingly. No more prizes perhaps--everyone can be paid out in cash. All up to the TD.

The divisions would include all players, even the 1040 rated players. Tournaments would be either open or divisional, but not both. The pdga would have to govern two competitive structures. TDs could decide what type of competition they want to foster. Divisional tournaments could be ratings based or age based. 15-25 year olds, 25-35 year olds, 35-45 year olds and so on. Open tournaments would be for any player that wants to compete without protection. A disc golfer could easily pursue both avenues simultaneously, no reason to decide about being a so-called pro or a so-called am. Be both. Or neither, you get the idea.

The structure is already in place for each structure to have a culminating event with the currently called pro and am worlds. Now they would be the Open World Championships and the Divisional World Championships.

I think this would be a great place from which the pdga could grow. It's more equitable, it provides unlimited choices to players and doesn't punish certain groups of players as the current mangled system does. So, what do you think?

bravo
Sep 27 2011, 07:01 PM
as long as players dont put a value to the competition and only see value in their players packs and payout there will be no harmony.

John Hernlund
Sep 28 2011, 03:10 PM
Nice discussion! As an Am player working my way up the ladder, I'm perfectly fine with the current structure (although I do resent the notion that only Pros can run events...Ams can run any event they like!). I'm not in it to make money, I'm playing for fun. And in fact, I don't think I'd ever like to feel like I'm playing for money (even when I move up to Pro), money-grubbing has a poisonous influence on people's spirits and on their communities.

Still, I have played dozens of non-PDGA sanctioned events in 2011, but have only played 3 PDGA events this year. This includes singles, doubles, etc., events run by individuals, clubs, businesses, private course owners, and regional leagues. You don't need to be a PDGA member to play these, and in fact, the number of non-PDGA members playing these alternative tournaments in California alone outnumbers the entire global active PDGA membership (though admittedly, it is a low bar). Many of these folks would love to play PDGA-sanctioned tournaments, but can't take 2 days of the weekend to play, or can only play during the week (late afternoon+evenings). A lot of them are broke and can't afford to throw down $60 minimum for a tournament in which they'll not see one iota of payout as an Am (this isn't greed, just survival). And then there are the trade-offs: my wife and I could spend $200+ for a PDGA tournament, or we could spend the same amount of money road tripping up to Lake Tahoe, playing 5-6 epic courses, camping out, etc.. A lot of people think we're crazy for wanting to play a PDGA event, but we do it because we love the courses, and love to support the clubs in their annual events.

Anyways, I would say that something like the ADGA, if it develops, would come from grassroots organization, not the PDGA. Set up a website with an easy-to-use database for leagues, ratings, etc., yourself. Sign up local doubles, singles, etc., leagues, and make it very very simple for people to get involved and into the database. After such an organization grows to become large and influential, then the PDGA would be forced to recognize and cooperate. One thing is for certain, the ADGA would have a better website than the PDGA. ;-)

Martin_Bohn
Sep 28 2011, 03:17 PM
whatever happened to the RDGA? (recreational disc golf association) set up by steady ed himself, memberships were available 10 years ago through his website discgolfassoc.com...... i believe this was an attempt by him to create a separate entity from the "professional" side of disc golf.

eupher61
Sep 28 2011, 11:40 PM
I repeat my question:

Is the governing body the professional association of disc golf, or the association of professional disc golfers?

The name should be changed to remove the "Professional".

John Hernlund
Sep 28 2011, 11:44 PM
I repeat my question:

Is the governing body the professional association of disc golf, or the association of professional disc golfers?

The name should be changed to remove the "Professional".

It's clear: PDGA=Professional Disc Golf Association. It is an association for professional disc golf. If you think it isn't, then you should be lobbying for them to change their name!

Most people I talk to who are involved with the PDGA board and governance seem to really believe (quaffing the kool-aid) in this pipe dream that they can get on ESPN, and then all of a sudden disc golf will explode in popularity afterwards. True believers won't listen to you if you tell them that things don't work that way...you have to grow the market first, then the TV coverage comes after. PDGA does little to expand the sport from the grassroots...only building more courses grows the sport, and PDGA doesn't have any impact on the growth in courses (except the IDGC).

whatever happened to the RDGA? (recreational disc golf association) set up by steady ed himself, memberships were available 10 years ago through his website discgolfassoc.com...... i believe this was an attempt by him to create a separate entity from the "professional" side of disc golf.


I will ask the DGA folks the next chance I get.

............

Beyond PDGA/ADGA...What I think disc golf needs is a powerful and well-run organization that is interested in helping local disc golfers establish more and more and more courses. Disc golf grows as the number of courses grows (indeed, that's how we measure it). Everybody in disc golf came into the sport because there was a local course to play, not because they had heard of the PDGA and thought it was so great. Helping out at the grassroots level could be done through grant programs (e.g., $10K per grant, given especially in areas ripe for growth, but too impoverished to do it themselves), help with approaching gov't bodies to ask for disc golf courses on park land, help with establishing strong clubs, help with establishing tax exempt status, help in legal defense of clubs and courses, etc.. PDGA doesn't involve themselves with the nitty-gritty end of establishing and retaining courses and clubs, and that's why they're irrelevant to the vast majority of disc golfers. I stand by that statement, because I've been there and done that. I've seen a dozen new courses established, and 3 courses removed, and the PDGA was nowhere in the picture in any of those cases. The clubs and courses are the backbone of the sport. Tournament play is great, but isn't the be-all-end-all of disc golf. We need an organization that recognizes that fact, and that is dedicated to the growth of the sport through courses and clubs.

jdot
Sep 30 2011, 01:38 PM
One change I'd love to see when everyone is playing the same course at the same time is... Playing the 2nd or successive rounds: according to scores, not divisions.

If a Master or Grand Master is playing great, they should be on the TOP CARD or / 2nd card etc... with scores determining who is on what card.

Once the tourney is finished.... Then the TD can move all the cards into divisions.... and do payouts. This sport is missing the mix it could have with the "mature" and the "young" meeting each other and competing. Being in a Masters or GM division should not keep anyone from playing on Top Card .... especially when it is being video'd by Disc Golf Monthly or other Video groups for hundreds / thousands of viewers.
When Tom Watson or any other elderly PGA competitors are in the hunt at the British Open or any other Major, it makes for great viewing and conversation. The PDGA format is missing this great opportunity to mix generations who have competitive scoring skills.

I don't buy the notion that one needs to be on the same card with the person they are competing with in a division to see who wins. Often times, wins are come from behind victories from the 2nd or 3rd card, and they don't see each other either.

Just my .02 but... i think we are missing out on something that would help add excitement and prestige to the sport. It doesn't work at every tournament I know... but where it can work, it should be up to the TD, and encouraged by the PDGA board to promote the NO Divisiona Play but Divisional Pay scenario.

thanks.
J.

davidsauls
Sep 30 2011, 03:25 PM
John,

I, on the other hand, don't care to be part of a nationwide organization dedicated to putting in local courses, anywhere.

Doesn't make much sense to me to draw money from localities, then distribute it back to them in grants. Or to draw it from certain localities to distribute it to others. It would make less sense for a national organization to be staffed enough to send people out across this country to design courses or lobby governments.

*

Regarding any name changes, seems I recall a few years ago when the (overwhelmingly amateur) membership was polled, and overhwelmingly preferred keeping the current name. I think the proposal was a mild change to "Players Disc Golf Association." Perhaps the administration has delusions of grandeur when it comes to becoming "big league", but the membership supports, or at least supported, the name.

jconnell
Sep 30 2011, 06:09 PM
One change I'd love to see when everyone is playing the same course at the same time is... Playing the 2nd or successive rounds: according to scores, not divisions.

If a Master or Grand Master is playing great, they should be on the TOP CARD or / 2nd card etc... with scores determining who is on what card.

Once the tourney is finished.... Then the TD can move all the cards into divisions.... and do payouts. This sport is missing the mix it could have with the "mature" and the "young" meeting each other and competing. Being in a Masters or GM division should not keep anyone from playing on Top Card .... especially when it is being video'd by Disc Golf Monthly or other Video groups for hundreds / thousands of viewers.
When Tom Watson or any other elderly PGA competitors are in the hunt at the British Open or any other Major, it makes for great viewing and conversation. The PDGA format is missing this great opportunity to mix generations who have competitive scoring skills.

I don't buy the notion that one needs to be on the same card with the person they are competing with in a division to see who wins. Often times, wins are come from behind victories from the 2nd or 3rd card, and they don't see each other either.

Just my .02 but... i think we are missing out on something that would help add excitement and prestige to the sport. It doesn't work at every tournament I know... but where it can work, it should be up to the TD, and encouraged by the PDGA board to promote the NO Divisiona Play but Divisional Pay scenario.

thanks.
J.
I don't think you'd ever have everyone go along with sorting the entire tournament purely by score rather than by division first. You say you don't buy the whole play with your direct competition thing, but I think you'll find yourself in the minority. Yes, players come back from 2nd and 3rd card occasionally, but those players still have the benefit of playing alongside their direct competitors, even if they may be greatly outplaying them.

Thing is, "Tom Watson at the British Open" isn't a real apt comparison because there are no divisions at that tournament. Everyone is all mixed together because they're all competing against one another, not because they want to mix old and young, pros and ams, and sort out the payout later. Part of the compelling nature of watching Watson at the Open is that he is a 60+ year old guy competing head to head with guys young enough to be his sons and sometimes his grandsons (like this year when he played with that amateur teen).

I've played enough tournaments in which groups were mixed across divisions in the first round to know that I much prefer playing with my divisional peers. It's hard to stay completely focused on the task at hand playing with players that are not my direct competition. If I have a bad shot or two, and I'm still the first guy teeing off on the next hole, it leaves me with no idea of where I stand. And then there's the whole issue of rules awareness. It's idealistic to think everyone is playing by the rules 100% of the time, but the reality is that a lot of players are more likely to call violations on their competition (people on which they can gain something) than on people not in direct competition. Sucks, but it's reality. Even if you personally are an upstanding player who calls everything the same regardless of who you're playing with, is everyone else?

But the idea of having events where everyone on the course can mix together is intriguing on some levels. I've always believed that one of the big reasons that "bagging" was a perceived issue is because we have multiple divisions competing on the same course at the same time. If each division was held on its own course as its own tournament, we would never again have to deal with "Joe Amateur would have finished in Nth place if he'd played Open instead of MA1" because there'd be no basis for comparison. Removing the divisions opens the door for everyone to be sorted by score, but we're a long way from that being a worthwhile option (more efficient to have 90 people in multiple divisions than just 25 people all in one), so it's a pipe dream.

John Hernlund
Oct 04 2011, 02:10 AM
John,

I, on the other hand, don't care to be part of a nationwide organization dedicated to putting in local courses, anywhere.

Noted.

Doesn't make much sense to me to draw money from localities, then distribute it back to them in grants. Or to draw it from certain localities to distribute it to others.

Translation: "I got mine, all the rest of y'all can just screw off."

The question isn't about channeling money that already exists, it is about giving people a reason to give any money in the first place. It is about giving people a chance to build the sport from the ground up, because no organization offers them that opportunity. Getting involved in building something in your community, and helping others do the same worldwide is a great thing to be part of.

And it isn't just about money. Locals need expert help organizing, setting up clubs, approaching gov't bodies, designing courses, finding bigger sponsors, defending against courses being pulled out of the ground, etc., etc..

I think this sport is built on the backs of people who like to sacrifice and work hard to invest in it. These are the course builders. They give unselfishly to build great things, so that people like you can enjoy it. That is the spirit of a great society. We could use more of those people, and less of the selfish variety.

It would make less sense for a national organization to be staffed enough to send people out across this country to design courses or lobby governments.

Why is that?

damonshort
Oct 04 2011, 05:53 PM
Good luck on the TM fight.

might not be a problem if they're actually spelling it "Amatuer"...

davidsauls
Oct 04 2011, 06:07 PM
Noted.



Translation: "I got mine, all the rest of y'all can just screw off."



Not at all.

I see it as terribly inefficient. Much as there are things the federal government can do better and things local governments can do better, installing courses is a local matter.

If a national organization gave $10,000 grants, 2 per state per year, that would cost a million dollars. Plus administrative costs. That would be an awful lot of money raised all over the country, resulting in very few projects (2 per state, per year?). I'd say, keep your money local and build your local courses.

How many staff people would they need to contact 100 local governments? What would their salaries be? Couldn't local people contact their own local governments, much more efficiently and effectively?

And that's only 2 courses per state, per year. We're already doing much better than that.

John Hernlund
Oct 04 2011, 07:19 PM
Not at all.

I see it as terribly inefficient. Much as there are things the federal government can do better and things local governments can do better, installing courses is a local matter.

If a national organization gave $10,000 grants, 2 per state per year, that would cost a million dollars. Plus administrative costs. That would be an awful lot of money raised all over the country, resulting in very few projects (2 per state, per year?). I'd say, keep your money local and build your local courses.

How many staff people would they need to contact 100 local governments? What would their salaries be? Couldn't local people contact their own local governments, much more efficiently and effectively?

And that's only 2 courses per state, per year. We're already doing much better than that.

OK, I see where you are coming from, and I think you are imagining something much larger in scale than I was thinking about. I'm not in favor of hiring a huge staff to administer anything. I have in mind something like organizing a network of volunteers. The goal would be to pay out 100% of what comes in, and maybe add even more from outside sponsors/donors/advertisers/etc..

Of course we want to keep things as local as possible, no question that no organization can build a course for anybody. But it just so happens that, in this world, there are places with abundant resources (more than enough), and places with nothing (but ripe for disc golf). There are also places that don't even realize the resources they might have access to without somebody helping to point them in the right direction. The development of the sport is held back by meta-stable scenarios like this in many places, and all they need is a way to unlock the barriers and then things will be able to take off on their own.

I still stand by my original assertion that we measure the growth of disc golf by the growth in courses. That's the main statistic. And if we want to grow the sport, the best way to do that is to help more people build more courses. The answer isn't to make a PDGA-like entity with lots of full-time staff, it is to unlock the potential energy that already exists, and create a larger synergy between clubs in general. The key is to realize that the sum is greater than its parts. That more is gained by coming together, than by staying apart.

Karl
Oct 05 2011, 09:42 AM
John stated:

"I still stand by my original assertion that we measure the growth of disc golf by the growth in courses."

Be careful...

If you have many, many courses - and no one playing them - is this success (as a sport)? It may be "success" for dg course makers (as it keeps them employed) but I doubt it would be a success for the sport. A sport is (usually) an activity conducted by PEOPLE...not locations / places / spots.

If you have many, many players - and no place to play - is this success (as a sport)? I'd say "yes", as - very quickly - there WOULD be additional courses made (to take up the slack in course numbers).

Growth can be measured by how it impacts other things also! More courses won't necessarily equate to more players, but more players will "force" more courses to be built (once and if one gets to the saturation point).

Yielding...growth of dg is measured by participants, NOT courses (course numbers is nothing more than an extension of the former (players) - not the other way around).

Karl

John Hernlund
Oct 05 2011, 01:34 PM
John stated:

"I still stand by my original assertion that we measure the growth of disc golf by the growth in courses."

Be careful...

If you have many, many courses - and no one playing them - is this success (as a sport)? It may be "success" for dg course makers (as it keeps them employed) but I doubt it would be a success for the sport. A sport is (usually) an activity conducted by PEOPLE...not locations / places / spots.

If you have many, many players - and no place to play - is this success (as a sport)? I'd say "yes", as - very quickly - there WOULD be additional courses made (to take up the slack in course numbers).

Growth can be measured by how it impacts other things also! More courses won't necessarily equate to more players, but more players will "force" more courses to be built (once and if one gets to the saturation point).

Yielding...growth of dg is measured by participants, NOT courses (course numbers is nothing more than an extension of the former (players) - not the other way around).

Karl

The people are indeed the sport. The home course and its corps of builders and maintainers are the bread and butter of disc golf. You can't have a course without people. People are implied when I say courses.

Let me hash this out once more, so it isn't misunderstood. People are drawn to the sport because of the existence of a local course and somebody who took them to play it. Then some fraction of them get hooked. Voila, the sport grows. Having a local course is a necessary pre-requisite. That's how the vast majority of us started playing disc golf.

There are so many places lacking for courses, where there are a lot of people who would have an interest in disc golf if they just had a chance to play. For example, when I was a student I lived in Santa Monica for 6 years, and I never heard of disc golf. There was no local course. Nobody there is picking up the game, or even being introduced to it. They have no idea what disc golf even is. You have to drive an hour from Santa Monica just to find a course. There are millions of acres of public land in the Santa Monica mountains, prime disc golf locality. But no disc golf. I guarantee that if you were to build just a single 18 hole course there (a nice one), you'd grow the sport by at least 1000 disc golfers in a matter of a few years. The course would be packed to the gills!

People need courses. If you want to grow the sport, you have to emphasize the growth in courses. Without a course to play, nobody will ever think about disc golf, or realize it even exists.

...more players will "force" more courses to be built (once and if one gets to the saturation point).

Saturation? I've seen thousands of percent saturation, and I see it almost everywhere I travel. This is a huge problem for disc golf. There are hundreds of courses over-filled and unbelievably crowded, and yet very slow (or no) progress in getting any new courses up and running to alleviate the pressure.

So many areas suffer terribly from lack of courses. Consider San Diego. For the longest time the only viable option was Morley Field. Morley is perhaps the most crowded disc golf course in the history of the sport. The only other options were some baskets thrown out at a couple ball golf courses. They only just recently got another big course established (Kit Carson) out in suburbia, which has let off some of the pressure. Still, a lot of new players are turned off by Morley Field, and having to wait 10-20 minutes at each tee...this is not something you would be willing to do unless you were already hooked. And even if you are hooked, you'd much rather be throwing plastic. And yet again, here is San Diego county, with millions of open acres of public lanes (hundreds of small valleys) threading through the entire region, and only sparse disc golf course options.

Another example is Sacramento, which has witnessed the destruction of 3 badly needed 18-hole courses in the past decade. 2 of those courses were ripped out of the ground because they were so crowded that problems with a few bad apples (even if just 1%, bad apples can be a lot when you have thousands using the course) spilled out into the surrounding neighborhood. The existing courses are so crowded that you can't find any time of day where there isn't a wait on the first tee. In Sacramento, even a relatively open and otherwise boring 9-hole course gets packed by people trying to avoid crowds at the other courses.

This is simply my experience. Thousands of places that are ripe for disc golf have no courses, at all. Numerous places that have some courses are unbelievably crowded, making it difficult to attract more people to the game, or even to play the game at all. In some places we are moving forward, building more great courses all the time. But in many other places, the paucity of courses is a total disaster for disc golf.

...It may be "success" for dg course makers (as it keeps them employed)...

Employed building disc golf courses?! This is a surprising statement. Disc golfers don't make any money from building courses, it's quite the opposite: it costs disc golfers a great deal of money, which is never recouped. And it costs an unbelievable sum in man-hours. It's a stunning achievement that disc golfers could get together and have the time and gumption to build them at all, and that gov't bodies would even let disc golfers onto their land to do so. I find it extremely unfortunate that the stories of sacrifice, what the builders accomplished, is not more widely known and recognized. Perhaps people would respect the courses more, take better care of the equipment, pick up litter, etc., if they knew how much effort went into building it. That $500 basket they're holing out on, was likely paid for by somebody who actually works for a living, and had to make personal sacrifices to afford it, but thought it was worth the investment.

I hope we do eventually see the day that people are building courses for profit. That would mean that the sport itself has become profitable, and that is something that would be great to achieve. But right now disc golf feeds on the contributions of disc golfers themselves, which is appropriate for an immature sport, but our resources are stretched and ill-coordinated. But it would be certainly be nice to see it grow beyond that.

Karl
Oct 05 2011, 02:31 PM
John,

It's quite obvious you're gung-ho about the stance you're taking but your...

"Saturation? I've seen thousands of percent saturation, and I see it almost everywhere I travel."

Doesn't bring out your intelligence. Percent (of most things, including usage ability of a disc golf course) maximizes at 100%; you can't have 1000%, and it looks like you havent' travelled to the northeast much. I know of MANY courses in the northeast US that may only have a handfull of players per day use it. You're using CA stats and applying them to the rest of the US...not valid.

I agree that 'course building' IS a good thing...just not the only thing.

And as for my dg course makers being employed, I should have used a winky emocon.

Now (hopefully) back to the thread topic....

Karl

John Hernlund
Oct 05 2011, 04:48 PM
It's quite obvious you're gung-ho about the stance you're taking but your...

"Saturation? I've seen thousands of percent saturation, and I see it almost everywhere I travel."

Doesn't bring out your intelligence. Percent (of most things, including usage ability of a disc golf course) maximizes at 100%; you can't have 1000%,

1000% means that there is 10X more traffic than the course is designed to handle. For reasonable pace of play, an 18 hole course is saturated at 4 persons/group/hole, which is 72 total persons. That's a good tournament standard. When an 18 hole course has hundreds of people playing, it is over 100%.

and it looks like you havent' travelled to the northeast much. I know of MANY courses in the northeast US that may only have a handfull of players per day use it. You're using CA stats and applying them to the rest of the US...not valid...

I've played only handful of courses in Maryland (1), Massachusetts (3), Connecticut (3), and Maine (2) during my travels. Thinking back on it, they weren't crowded at all, so yeah it seems to be a very different dynamic in the northeast. You guys probably don't need more courses, you need to bring more buddies out to play!

Any chance you folks with under-used courses can send some of them our way?! :cool: Or tell us how you got so many courses put in that there aren't enough people to use them? Sounds like a great success, and we'd love to have the same!

Anyways, that's what I'm talking about, there are areas with great abundance, and areas that are starving. If we can build more courses in the starving areas, then we'll see growth in the sport. If we can harness the expertise and wisdom of people in areas with abundance, and they can help others to build courses where they are desperately needed, it would be a good thing, would it not?

Now (hopefully) back to the thread topic....

Indeed.

cgkdisc
Oct 05 2011, 09:49 PM
There are at least 20 course designers who are regularly paid for their services on more projects than not. Some of us still do a few for no pay either by helping out another designer who is getting paid or typically going back to tweak a couse that they did several years ago due to park renovation projects. Establishing pay-for-play courses is one way to get more courses in areas that need them and breaking thru to get reluctant Parks Depts to install one.

John Hernlund
Oct 06 2011, 02:48 AM
There are at least 20 course designers who are regularly paid for their services on more projects than not...

:confused:

Establishing pay-for-play courses is one way to get more courses in areas that need them and breaking thru to get reluctant Parks Depts to install one.

Maybe, but it is not clear to me how it works in the long-term for further growth. I think pay-to-play might be great to establish in a frontier, but maybe its existence prohibits further growth? For example, pay-to-play has been very successful at Morley Field in San Diego (a disc golf outpost inside conservative territory, in a fabulous park), but that has also been the most crowded course in California for many years, partly as a result of its own success. Their need for more courses has been severe for a long time, yet more new courses never appeared inside the city of San Diego (which is enormous, btw, with vast public lands). (Note: The new course at Kit Carson Park is in Escondido, and is not pay-to-play.) Why is that?

go18under
Oct 06 2011, 03:55 AM
Never been there so have no idea, but I'm astonished that those raped Ams continue to flock there in great numbers, freely choosing Bowling Green over other tournaments. Makes you wonder.

I would like to retract the statement about BG Ams getting "raped" year after year. Larry Bledsoe created an environment in Bowling Green where amateurs can compete and have a lot of fun. The fact that the Bg Club netted over $10,000 to add to the BG Open purse several years in a row, says a lot about how much money can be generated if done correctly.

I honestly think amateur competitors should get a shirt, maybe a disc for signing up, and play for trophies. I saw a post today from an amateur complaining about a local tournament where they advertised a DX disc for a player pack......my response.....get better and play for money, or stay at home with that attitude.

The amateurs in our sport have a sense of entitlement that is ruining the tournament culture/atmosphere, and the PDGA are the ones to blame. I understand the amateurs are the majority....so just let them play for fun, and recognition. They would be the first ones to support their money going to a staff managing a real Pro tour, and trying to get it on ESPN.

What gives the PDGA the right to "recommend" a payout schedule?? Aren't TD's paying the PDGA to sanction the event? Aren't the TD's submitting the scores to the website for the PDGA's members?? Aren't the TD's paying the PDGA $2-$4 dollars per tournament player?? Aren't the TD's the ones who put in months of work, finding sponsor money, out of pocket expenses, etc.?? What does the PDGA do for that TD for representing their organization?? They make them give amateur players merchandise so they keep playing tournaments.....so they can keep collecting checks.

Another suggestion to all clubs......host Am only events on Saturday, then Pro only the day after...it's still considered one tournament and you only pay one sanctioning fee. You could offer half price to the amateurs that want to play with the Pros on Sunday.

This would help with one of the biggest problems at tournaments in my opinion....90 players on 18 holes, where the the worst player is throwing twice as many shots as the top Pro.....no matter how many temp holes, grouping strategies, and other ideas you might think help flow....it doesn't matter....it's gonna be slow. It's usually the one group of women that everybody gets mad at....which is totally unfair, and the reason my wife doesn't like playing tournaments anymore.

The Pros could do some clinics, maybe caddy for some am friends on Saturdays, then the ams could return the favor on Sundays for the Pros (minus the clinics:)

So instead of separating organizations as I initially proposed, maybe we could try the Am Saturday/Pro Sunday idea first to see if it gets any traction?? If this was the standard for all clubs, you might see more non PDGA members show up on Saturdays to play an "Amateur Disc Golf Tournament".....not a Professional Disc Golf Association Tournament. You also might see a lot more amateurs testing the waters on Sundays.....which would increase pro fields/purses/gallery's.

ok

go18under
Oct 06 2011, 04:10 AM
As far as the course design topic:) I just played 4 courses in Colorado, and Kansas......some of them rated as high as 3.8 on Disc Golf review......I would not have given any of them higher than a 1.5. Sure, some of these course are old and fun, but most of the courses are outdated, and for recreational use only.

Clubs should plan for recreational use, and also tournament use, when planning a course design.

warwickdan
Oct 06 2011, 09:41 AM
maybe i'm naive and too simplistic but........

are tournaments (Am or Pro) the best way to get players to start playing our game or keep players playing once they are hooked?

why do we spend so much time and energy and money organizing tournaments?

are tournaments a poor, mediocre, or great way to publicize our sport?

it seems to me that tournaments are a decent way of offering something fun and competitive for those currently a part of the disc golf community. but most tourneys dont do a heckuva lot in terms of introducing the non-disc-playing community to our game. tourneys that totally reach out to the public with major promotions and advertising and clinics are in the minority.

in my opinion we dont need to segregate amateurs playing tourneys and pros playing tourneys. the boundary lines between amateur and pro in our game are so blurred anyway. either way (ams or pros), generally speaking, an event generally doesnt do much to help our game grow.

what would make more sense is an organization that coordinates/oversees tourneys
for the disc golf community and an organization that oversees all other aspects of our sport, with an emphasis on educating and marketing to the non disc golfing community.

dandoyle
warwick, ny

go18under
Oct 06 2011, 01:03 PM
maybe i'm naive and too simplistic but........

are tournaments (Am or Pro) the best way to get players to start playing our game or keep players playing once they are hooked?

both

why do we spend so much time and energy and money organizing tournaments?

disc golfers like to compete, and it brings folks together

are tournaments a poor, mediocre, or great way to publicize our sport?

poorly run tournaments sure don't help......and if we really want to publicize our sport through tournaments, and try to attract TV attention, we need to focus on the Pros more.

it seems to me that tournaments are a decent way of offering something fun and competitive for those currently a part of the disc golf community. but most tourneys dont do a heckuva lot in terms of introducing the non-disc-playing community to our game. tourneys that totally reach out to the public with major promotions and advertising and clinics are in the minority.

There are a lot of $10 non member fees collected every week by the PDGA, so I think it is attracting non tournament playing disc golfers. TD's are generally volunteers, but the PDGA has a paid staff that does the major promotions and advertising you speak of.....

in my opinion we dont need to segregate amateurs playing tourneys and pros playing tourneys. the boundary lines between amateur and pro in our game are so blurred anyway. either way (ams or pros), generally speaking, an event generally doesnt do much to help our game grow.

I disagree.....the difference between a top Pro and a 1st time Rec player is drastic on a tournament.......almost 2 for 1 shot ratio on 18 holes. Why would anybody come back to a tournament where it took 3-4 hours to finish one round? That's a big reason I stopped playing tournaments as much.

what would make more sense is an organization that coordinates/oversees tourneys
for the disc golf community and an organization that oversees all other aspects of our sport, with an emphasis on educating and marketing to the non disc golfing community.

The pdga does this very well already:)

We need to market our stars....watching the top 20-40 players in a tournament once every 3 weeks or so on TV, would be a good start.

dandoyle
warwick, ny

Thanks!

eupher61
Oct 06 2011, 01:53 PM
As far as the course design topic:) I just played 4 courses in Colorado, and Kansas......some of them rated as high as 3.8 on Disc Golf review......I would not have given any of them higher than a 1.5. Sure, some of these course are old and fun, but most of the courses are outdated, and for recreational use only.

Ratings on dgcr are from anyone and everyone, most of whom have no concept of course design and many of whom have played only a few courses.
Ratings can't be trusted in that situation, but also can't be faulted.

Oooohhhh....so recreational use doesn't count?
It's certainly possible to have a course intended for beginners that deserves a 5 rating. I know of one...William Yates Elementary in Independence, MO (KC). The designer was given a tract of land, and told to have x number of holes in view from one point. It is possibly the single best design I've seen, given the intent and the land. Size doesn't matter, quality does.

warwickdan
Oct 06 2011, 01:55 PM
"We need to market our stars....watching the top 20-40 players in a tournament once every 3 weeks or so on TV, would be a good start. "

Until our sport becomes more mainstream, our top 20-40 players are not marketable to the degree necessary for major sponsors to invest the kind of money required to produce a TV piece. Local cable coverage can be had in some local markets, and John Duesler's work with this Disc Planet coverage on the internet is a big first step.

like i said, the overwhelming majority of events serve existing disc golfers and do little to expose the game to the millions of people who still refer to our game as FROLF or have never even heard of our sport by any name.

programs like EDGE, if utilized properly, or inner city clinics, or after-school programs, or county Senior Games, or a plethora of other programs that educate the public are critical for helping to create knowledge about our sport so that when an A Tier or NT event comes to town the average josephine has a desire to go check out the action and see our top 20 to 40 stars.

until that happens they are only stars in our own little world. if a giant sequoia falls in the woods and no one is there does it make a noise?

John Hernlund
Oct 06 2011, 04:01 PM
...the overwhelming majority of events serve existing disc golfers and do little to expose the game to the millions of people who still refer to our game as FROLF or have never even heard of our sport by any name.

programs like EDGE, if utilized properly, or inner city clinics, or after-school programs, or county Senior Games, or a plethora of other programs that educate the public are critical for helping to create knowledge about our sport so that when an A Tier or NT event comes to town the average josephine has a desire to go check out the action and see our top 20 to 40 stars.

until that happens they are only stars in our own little world. if a giant sequoia falls in the woods and no one is there does it make a noise?

Very good points, Dan. I think the awareness of what happens in tournaments is even more limited than you suggest, and only a small fraction of the total disc golfing masses pays any attention to tournaments, or knows who any of the top players are unless their name is scrawled on a disc they bought.

For example, I took a couple of guys through part of DeLaveaga the other day, who were visiting from out-of-town and eager to play the course because somebody had mentioned to them that it was a good course. They play all over the country, while traveling on business, and are in the 800-rated range in terms of skill. These guys are definitely hooked regular disc golfers (3-4 rounds/week=hooked). Still, they had never heard of Nate Doss, only knew Ken Climo from a sig disc they bought, and their pre-conceived notions held that all World Championships take place in Augusta (they were surprised to learn that California hosted it this year).

Heck, my own brother and his buddies in Portland have the same lack of awareness, and don't really care about the tournament scene. When I suggested they might enjoy going to watch the BSF at Milo, they were completely unmoved. They don't know any of the top pros, and don't really care.

And I would have to say that these folks are way more typical in disc golf than people who are well-informed about tournaments, who know the top pros, who know the current World Champ, etc..

Thus, not only do tournaments fail to reach out to non-disc golfers, they aren't even effective at reaching regular hooked disc golfers.

go18under
Oct 06 2011, 04:32 PM
@eupher61......recreational courses do count:) I enjoyed the courses I played, and I always have fun whenever I throw frisbees. The PDGA does a good job of providing support for designing new courses...tons of good info. Most ball golf courses have 4 different tee pad areas.....some up to 150 yards difference from Pro to Women. I think that's a good standard to work toward when designing a course. I understand the area to work with makes a big impact on these decisions also. The sport has grown enough to earn the respect of designing a course for all levels at this point, to secure even growth among pros and ams.

@warwick....I agree Brian Grahm and the PDGA does a great job working the grass roots aproach, working internationally, inner cities, schools, collegiate, and so much more. I have a lot of respect for what Brian and his staff have done over the years. We all share the frustration of wondering why eating contests, poker, softball, and a dozen other so called sports make it to ESPN, but we can't?

I also agree John Deusler has been aggressively moving us forward, and making great strides with Disc Golf Planet TV, but we need about 6 more sales people just like him working full time, closing deals, building relationships/pipelines, etc.

The main objective to my original proposal, is to create a separate staff that is 100% dedicated to the Pros. I understand the Pros aren't the majority, but I hate the fact the world might not get to see Climo, Barry, and all the other aging stars on ESPN in our lifetime.....we owe it to them to try. I wish someone could turn the clock back and put the Climo/Russell Worlds battle on high def with professional announcers......

I have come to appreciate the passion we all share for this sport, and the different ways we try to communicate it.......I guess I'm getting old, and just speak my mind a little more:)

Thanks for the feedback.....I hope it helps!!

Jeff_LaG
Oct 07 2011, 11:53 AM
maybe i'm naive and too simplistic but........

are tournaments (Am or Pro) the best way to get players to start playing our game or keep players playing once they are hooked?

why do we spend so much time and energy and money organizing tournaments?

are tournaments a poor, mediocre, or great way to publicize our sport?

it seems to me that tournaments are a decent way of offering something fun and competitive for those currently a part of the disc golf community. but most tourneys dont do a heckuva lot in terms of introducing the non-disc-playing community to our game.

At every National Tour and PDGA Major event which I volunteer at, I always walk away with a glow and a smile on my face. I feel the satisfaction of helping present disc golf's biggest events. I feel the awe and wonder at seeing our sport being played by absolutely the most talented disc golfers in the world - they throw shots I can't even conceive. I typically see a world classs course(s) looking its absolute best and presenting the highest challenge it can. I always renew friendships with folks both locally and with others from all over the country, and I typically make new ones. I often connect with a personality from the internet and put faces to names, and allow people to see that I'm really not the jerk I come across as online. :p There is no doubt that tournament disc golf plays an extremely important role in the lives of the people who play in them and host them.

But at the same time, I always think to myself: We just gave away $25,000 / $50,000 / $100,000 to a couple dozen disc golfers at this tournament. What else could we have done with that money? Did we really do anything in the big picture to grow the sport of disc golf? :confused:

eupher61
Oct 07 2011, 12:15 PM
If the DGA (the original) had gotten involved with ESPN in the network's early days, when it were showing anything involving physical activity to fill its schedule, we may not have this question now. I'm not pointing blame, I just had that thought.

From a TV point of view, this is a very difficult sport to cover. PGA type events have wide open areas, where they can either build towers or put up cherry pickers to cover more than one hole at a time. I read something at one point about setting up coverage at the Masters, they use 10 cameras on the course IIRC. That sounds like a lot, but considering the distances involved over 18 holes, that's bare bones. They do have a couple shoulder mounts too, and anchor booth etc. But, they can do a lot with just a few cameras, and they do a lot on delayed playback. I don't think Duesler has the bucks to work that kind of rig yet, and besides, the topography of DG courses would make that difficult for any network. Too many trees to get the multiple coverage thing happening, it would take a lot more hardware to cover 1/3 the distance of play.

davidsauls
Oct 07 2011, 01:12 PM
But at the same time, I always think to myself: We just gave away $25,000 / $50,000 / $100,000 to a couple dozen disc golfers at this tournament. What else could we have done with that money? Did we really do anything in the big picture to grow the sport of disc golf? :confused:

Perhaps not everything we do has to be growing the sport. Some things might be just for the pleasure, including the notion of having top-level events. And at least some of that money came from the competitors.

Perhaps.

warwickdan
Oct 07 2011, 01:36 PM
for the sake of full disclosure / transparency i would be remiss if i didnt state that i've been the TD for many many tournaments for over 30 years that obviously serve the existing disc golf community, including many NT events andA-tiers over that time period.

as jeff lagrassa said there are aspects of running a top tier event that are very appealing to me. the whole process of securing a gorgeous state-of-the-sport venue to attract the top players in the game is so cool. i feel like a little kid at christmas as the players arrive.

these kinds of events absolutely DO help promote our sport. i hope i wasnt suggesting otherwise.

but i believe a two pronged approach - growing the sport from the top down as well as promoting it at the grassroots level - is the best way to go. and that is where perhaps two associations with the same goal using different approaches comes into play.

go18under
Oct 07 2011, 02:06 PM
for the sake of full disclosure / transparency i would be remiss if i didnt state that i've been the TD for many many tournaments for over 30 years that obviously serve the existing disc golf community, including many NT events andA-tiers over that time period.

as jeff lagrassa said there are aspects of running a top tier event that are very appealing to me. the whole process of securing a gorgeous state-of-the-sport venue to attract the top players in the game is so cool. i feel like a little kid at christmas as the players arrive.

these kinds of events absolutely DO help promote our sport. i hope i wasnt suggesting otherwise.

but i believe a two pronged approach - growing the sport from the top down as well as promoting it at the grassroots level - is the best way to go. and that is where perhaps two associations with the same goal using different approaches comes into play.

Well said...it's time!

Jeff_LaG
Oct 07 2011, 03:36 PM
Perhaps not everything we do has to be growing the sport. Some things might be just for the pleasure, including the notion of having top-level events.

I'm in total agreement with that. :)

But I think it would be unwise for folks to get behind any platform which essentially espouses that the only way to grow the sport of disc is to just keep expanding the number of National Tour & PDGA Major events and the total purse.

davidsauls
Oct 07 2011, 03:53 PM
I'm in total agreement with that. :)

But I think it would be unwise for folks to get behind any platform which essentially espouses that the only way to grow the sport of disc is to just keep expanding the number of National Tour & PDGA Major events and the total purse.

I'm not behind any playform that uses the phrase "only way".

I support growing the sport on multiple fronts. At the top and the bottom and everywhere in between.

I was just musing that not everything we do is about growing the sport. Some things are just about enjoying the sport. How big tournaments break down between those goals, I'm not sure.

go18under
Oct 08 2011, 12:05 PM
My wife reminded me how much money we spend on sports equipment for our kids, and how sports really market to women more then men.

I go to schools, women's conventions, provide specific women player packages, etc to try and involve the families, but nothing seems to work.

First of all, most the tournaments take too long, because someone along the line thought it was OK to jam 5 players on every hole, and 90 players on an 18 hole course playing at once, where the worst player is taking twice as many shots as the best player......then when that wasn't enough, they start adding temp holes and more five-somes, which makes it worse........bad choice, bad tradition. Maybe that's why we have 50,000 PDGA members and only 10,000 or so of them playing tournaments still??

No woman I know is gonna bring their kids to a tournament, and spend money for something like that........those kind of tournaments won't grow our
sport at all.

That's why I proposed the Am Saturday tournaments and Pro Sunday tournaments for the B and C events......Saturday can be dedicated to having fun, kid and women friendly atmosphere. The Pros need to work at the Am tournaments to raise money for their purses the next day.

Just imagine if every TD hosted a 1 Hour Disc Golf Tournament for women and children for every sanctioned tournament they run?? Maybe the PDGA would waive the sanction fee for doing this??

The big tournaments is where we need a paid staff representing Pros only pushing the envelope with TV/Radio/Internet marketing and sales.

ok

DShelton
Oct 09 2011, 09:51 PM
My wife reminded me how much money we spend on sports equipment for our kids, and how sports really market to women more then men.

They market to women as fans, not as participants. They know that women buy most of the items that are used in a household day to day.

I go to schools, women's conventions, provide specific women player packages, etc to try and involve the families, but nothing seems to work.

It's because women typically aren't as competitive as men are. They need to be shown how social the game is and how good of exercise it is. My wife plays but she absolutely hates to play in any competitive way. If I try to keep score she'll quit.

First of all, most the tournaments take too long, because someone along the line thought it was OK to jam 5 players on every hole, and 90 players on an 18 hole course playing at once, where the worst player is taking twice as many shots as the best player......then when that wasn't enough, they start adding temp holes and more five-somes, which makes it worse........bad choice, bad tradition. Maybe that's why we have 50,000 PDGA members and only 10,000 or so of them playing tournaments still??

I want to move to where you live. In our area, the worse numbers are showing up for tournaments this year. I just got through playing in one on Saturday and a total of 14 people showed up. Boy was that course crowded.

No woman I know is gonna bring their kids to a tournament, and spend money for something like that........those kind of tournaments won't grow our
sport at all.

Especially when she can buy those discs and bags at any Walmart or online. That would be the only reason to bring kids to a tournament, unless they are going to play.

That's why I proposed the Am Saturday tournaments and Pro Sunday tournaments for the B and C events......Saturday can be dedicated to having fun, kid and women friendly atmosphere. The Pros need to work at the Am tournaments to raise money for their purses the next day.

Why make the Ams look like they're less than worthy to be with pros. Why not espouse a truly competitive atmosphere all around. It would make players think that you don't want Ams competing anywhere near where the Pros are playing, especially in smaller C-tiers that don't have huge numbers of pros attending. (our last C-tier had 4 pros).


The big tournaments is where we need a paid staff representing Pros only pushing the envelope with TV/Radio/Internet marketing and sales.


Now think of where those sponsors are coming from.

Try this (seriously) Go to your local TV station and ask them what it would take for them to cover one of your next tournaments (from first tee off to the last putt) and see what the reasons they give for not covering it (remembering many cover local high school football games from beginning to end). THEN you can see what kind of hurdles you have to jump over to make the sport get national cover because it would take at least 1000 times more than you local station would want to cover the sport on a major carrier like ESPN or NBC.

go18under
Oct 11 2011, 10:12 AM
They market to women as fans, not as participants. They know that women buy most of the items that are used in a household day to day.



It's because women typically aren't as competitive as men are. They need to be shown how social the game is and how good of exercise it is. My wife plays but she absolutely hates to play in any competitive way. If I try to keep score she'll quit.



I want to move to where you live. In our area, the worse numbers are showing up for tournaments this year. I just got through playing in one on Saturday and a total of 14 people showed up. Boy was that course crowded.



Especially when she can buy those discs and bags at any Walmart or online. That would be the only reason to bring kids to a tournament, unless they are going to play.



Why make the Ams look like they're less than worthy to be with pros. Why not espouse a truly competitive atmosphere all around. It would make players think that you don't want Ams competing anywhere near where the Pros are playing, especially in smaller C-tiers that don't have huge numbers of pros attending. (our last C-tier had 4 pros).




Now think of where those sponsors are coming from.

Try this (seriously) Go to your local TV station and ask them what it would take for them to cover one of your next tournaments (from first tee off to the last putt) and see what the reasons they give for not covering it (remembering many cover local high school football games from beginning to end). THEN you can see what kind of hurdles you have to jump over to make the sport get national cover because it would take at least 1000 times more than you local station would want to cover the sport on a major carrier like ESPN or NBC.

You are so far off base, I don't want to waste much time responding.

Marketing to women as fans and not participants.....duh!!

Women aren't typically competitive as men......dumb comment.....you probably won't be married long.

14 player tournament means you chose a bad weekend....bad course.....bad TD......or all of the above.

I proposed a 1 hour tournament for children to PLAY in..and women are always looking at healthy things for their kids to do.

Money and a dedicated PDGA sales staff could bring out the cameras.....I have been talking to "Victor" at ESPN for several years now.....he manages the specialty sports programming.

eupher61
Oct 11 2011, 02:00 PM
Ah...several years. Good. You're obviously getting somewhere. Great. Wake me up in 25 years when you get there. :rolleyes:

DShelton
Oct 11 2011, 07:04 PM
You are so far off base, I don't want to waste much time responding.

Marketing to women as fans and not participants.....duh!!

Women aren't typically competitive as men......dumb comment.....you probably won't be married long.

Thank you very much, but I've been with my wife for 16 years now!!!!!

It's a physiological thing. Men have more testosterone which causes us to be more competitive. Women like the social aspect of the game, thus few like tournaments. This is what I've been told by many women that I talked to while trying to get them to play in our local league.

14 player tournament means you chose a bad weekend....bad course.....bad TD......or all of the above.

That 14 man tournament has been close to typical all year. This recession has hurt a lot of people giving our area the highest unemployment rates in the state. Spending money on tournaments has been the first thing most people have cut out. I'm glad your area is so flush with money.

What you are doing is looking at the problem from your own lens. Many areas in the country aren't seeing the soaring numbers playing as they are in your area.

I proposed a 1 hour tournament for children to PLAY in..and women are always looking at healthy things for their kids to do./[QUOTE]

I don't know about your area, but in ours, most TD's will have the small kids only play one round and have a non-playing person follow along to help out. That usually takes about an hour and it's done. The problem is that it takes a certain dedication to learn how to throw a disc properly and many young kids don't have that kind of attention span so there aren't many that show up to tournaments.

[QUOTE=go18under;1462990]Money and a dedicated PDGA sales staff could bring out the cameras.....I have been talking to "Victor" at ESPN for several years now.....he manages the specialty sports programming.

OK then you have went to your local station to have a tournament aired. What did they tell you? If you haven't, then do it and tell us what that station tells you (I can guess at what they will tell you, but you need to do the legwork). Why not start small with a local station and show the networks that disc golf is worth the time.

go18under
Oct 16 2011, 04:35 PM
Women make the majority of the financial decisions in most families. Corporations spend on average 80% of their advertising budget, focused on women. Women decide what sports their kids will play, and which leagues they will participate in. Women are the reason cameras come out......because sponsors want to market to them. To say women aren't as competitive is just demeaning, and not true.....we will just leave it at that. Stats don't lie.....

ESPN offers packages for TV coverage......but it's pricey. I think it might be a good investment to put the top 100 pros in a tournament, on gallery friendly course, in High Definition.

All we can do is keep trying, which it sounds like we all are doing. We just need to stick together, and have these debates in a professional manner.

I do think our leaders can spend their time better working on other things besides smoking bans though:)


Peace

jconnell
Oct 17 2011, 02:39 PM
Women make the majority of the financial decisions in most families. Corporations spend on average 80% of their advertising budget, focused on women. Women decide what sports their kids will play, and which leagues they will participate in. Women are the reason cameras come out......because sponsors want to market to them. To say women aren't as competitive is just demeaning, and not true.....we will just leave it at that. Stats don't lie.....
All of what you say about where advertising is aimed is absolutely true. But what does it have to do with whether or not women are "competitive"? Television advertising aimed at women isn't about appealing to their sense of competition. Fox and ESPN don't tailor their sports broadcasts to be more appealing to women in order to get them to play football and baseball and basketball. They do it to get them to watch so they can sell ads that target women.

And to say women aren't competitive isn't demeaning if it's coming from the women themselves. I literally know dozens of women who play disc golf. Running a disc golf course, I see them playing on a daily basis. Few of them have ever shown interest in playing competitive golf, whether it is a league round, doubles, or a full tournament. And it's not for lack of trying, both on our part encouraging participation and their part actually giving it a try. Some have tried our weekly doubles league. Some our beginners tournament. Some even our PDGA tournaments. Not many have come back for more events. Many said they just weren't interested in competing, some said they preferred to play with their friends for fun instead of people they didn't know. Has little to do with advertising or marketing. If the audience isn't interested, it's hard to change their mind. But at least they're playing the game...that means they're more likely eyeballs for a television program than folks who don't play the game at all.



ESPN offers packages for TV coverage......but it's pricey. I think it might be a good investment to put the top 100 pros in a tournament, on gallery friendly course, in High Definition.
Pricey is probably an understatement. I bet we're talking well over a million dollars for something like this. We've got a long way to go before we as a sport can bankroll something like that.

All we can do is keep trying, which it sounds like we all are doing. We just need to stick together, and have these debates in a professional manner.
This --^

I do think our leaders can spend their time better working on other things besides smoking bans though:)
Doesn't really jive with this --^

But yeah, keep up the professionalism.