JerryChesterson
Jul 12 2011, 01:59 PM
What's the ruling?

Entire card fails to show up at their hole on time. Other cards are on their 3rd hole when the card in question shows up and plays the round from their original starting hole. No groups have played through them as their was a 3 hole gap behind the card in question.

cgkdisc
Jul 12 2011, 02:24 PM
Only a courtesy warning because no one on that card could or did complete one or two holes such that any one of them was late enough to get par+4.

jconnell
Jul 12 2011, 03:20 PM
What's the ruling?

Entire card fails to show up at their hole on time. Other cards are on their 3rd hole when the card in question shows up and plays the round from their original starting hole. No groups have played through them as their was a 3 hole gap behind the card in question.
Where were they that they all couldn't make it to their assigned hole on time? That they all were delayed is a little suspicious to me. One or two of them, okay, but not an entire group.

There is a pace of play rule in the Competition Manual, which includes a clause that players should make every effort to keep up with the group in front of them on the course. By not starting when everyone else did, they certainly didn't make every effort to keep up with the group in front. They let that group get at least two holes in front of them before they started.

Unfortunately, there's no penalty involved for failing to keep up other than a tournament official going out and warning them and subsequently penalizing them as the round progresses. Nothing can be done after the fact.

If they delayed intentionally (and I have to believe they did) because they were hoping to not have to wait on the group in front or to wait out a rain shower or wind gust or something, maybe you can whack them for cheating. 801.04F could come into play. Playing the stipulated course means starting where and when the TD says to, and playing at a particular pace without undue delay. They didn't do that.

Since they delayed at the start, I'm betting they were the last group to finish their round. Typically, I gauge the start time for round 2 as 30 minutes or 45 minutes after the last card is turned in for round 1. In this case, I'd consider the last card is the one that came in before this group. If that means this group gets all of 10 minutes for lunch, tough noogies.

JerryChesterson
Jul 12 2011, 03:29 PM
They went to the wrong hole.

jconnell
Jul 12 2011, 03:40 PM
They went to the wrong hole.
Well, in that case, disregard anything I said about cheating or them doing anything suspicious. I don't know that there's anything that can or should be done for that kind of a mistake, provided they caught it before they attempted a throw and then went to the correct hole and began their round without any groups playing through their "spot" on the course.

The question I have now is, how did they end up going to the wrong hole in the first place? Was it a location with two courses and they went to the wrong course? Did they completely mis-read the scoreport? Or was there no scoreport and they mis-heard whoever read off the groupings and sent them out on the course?

Even so, it still seems odd that they'd be so far off from the correct hole that they couldn't realize their mistake and still have time to hustle over to the correct hole before other groups managed to play 2 or 3 holes. If other groups had time to play 2 or 3 holes in the time it took them to go from the wrong hole to the correct one, they had to be loafing around, right? I mean, that has to be 10-15 minutes minimum, doesn't it (2 hour round = 6.67 minutes per hole for 18 holes)?

james_mccaine
Jul 12 2011, 03:57 PM
Without going into all the specifics, their tardiness was understandable. I suspect they tried to hustle to their hole, but it was a long way. IMO, the call was correct, although I would stroke the late ones for being less responsible than Pete. That has to be in the rulebook somewhere. :)

DISConnected
Jul 12 2011, 04:10 PM
Without going into all the specifics, their tardiness was understandable. I suspect they tried to hustle to their hole, but it was a long way. IMO, the call was correct, although I would stroke the late ones for being less responsible than Pete. That has to be in the rulebook somewhere. :)

Where is the "Like" button on this thing? ;)

krazyeye
Jul 12 2011, 04:13 PM
That is funny.

krazyeye
Jul 12 2011, 04:16 PM
We had something similar happen. A single person was ten minutes late on card of three. He showed up just as we were about to join the group behind us. As we had not started yet we did not penalize him since this is not covered in the rules. Late in the round found out it was his first tournament. No harm no foul in my opinion.

davidsauls
Jul 12 2011, 04:47 PM
They're probably in luck; I don't think the rules ever anticipated an entire group being late to their hole. I also doubt it happens often enough to warrant a rule.

bruce_brakel
Jul 12 2011, 05:39 PM
The rule is in the Competition Manual:

An extended blast of the noisemaker begins the round and signals the scorekeepers to call the throwing orders. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole.

Assuming they were a foursome, they were all late for the tee two minutes after tee off. The first player was late 30 seconds after the tee off. The second player's turn then commenced and he was late one minute after the tee off, and so on. Since there is no specified time in which they must complete the hole, they were not late for any subsequent holes. They all get par plus four for their first hole. Whether they also get penalized for practice throws or playing the course out of order or for turning in an incorrect scorecard is trickier. I would only assess the one penalty, but the new rules specify that certain penalties should not be stacked, implying that the rest should.

If you agree with my analysis that they were late, I'm curious what you think about stacking the other penalties. If you disagree with my analysis that they were late, run for the PDGA Board. :D

DISConnected
Jul 12 2011, 06:02 PM
It is assumed that the scorekeeper is the one who was listed first on the hole assignment.

If no one is present at the starting hole, and thus no scorekeeper, how is the 30 second count going to begin?

The dilemma is that the rules do not specify what to do if an entire card does not start on time.

What is the difference between this situation and one where a group is on the correct tee but does not hear the starting horn? Then when the group behind approaches them, they realize that start had been sounded and then they tee off. Should they be penalized?

They did not throw any other holes, nor did they play the course out of order or turn in an incorrect scorecard. Any of those actions would have been more clear cut.

JerryChesterson
Jul 12 2011, 09:02 PM
That's what is so funny about this, there really wasn't any intent to circumvent the rules. Kind of an honest mistake. To be clear, not suggesting anything be changed after the fact, I'm more interested now out of curiousity what the offical ruling should be so I can be prepared next time.

krazyeye
Jul 12 2011, 10:01 PM
I think the situtations were handled correctly. The rules are just not clear.

JerryChesterson
Jul 12 2011, 11:43 PM
Let's remove the "actual situation" from the mix and have an objective discussion about the rule. "The situtation" withstanding, how should the rule be interpretted (it isn't exactly black and white).

Patrick P
Jul 13 2011, 02:13 PM
Let's remove the "actual situation" from the mix and have an objective discussion about the rule. "The situtation" withstanding, how should the rule be interpretted (it isn't exactly black and white). The only closest ruling would be in the competition manual "If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole." If this was a tee time start, then I would assess par+4 for the entire group for each hole until they caught up to the correct hole between the other groups on the field. Shotgun start, well they didn't start on time. Maybe the same would be assessed? Once the group behind them caught up to the hole the late group should be on, then start assessing par+4 for each hole? It's not clear. I would give them a warning and let them play on as long as this was unintentional.

jconnell
Jul 13 2011, 03:13 PM
Let's remove the "actual situation" from the mix and have an objective discussion about the rule. "The situtation" withstanding, how should the rule be interpretted (it isn't exactly black and white).
I think in a case where a whole group (call them group A) is late, the only way to penalize them is if the group that was supposed to be following them through the course (group B) plays through where they should be. In such a case, for each hole that group B plays, beginning with group A's assigned starting hole, each player in group A receives a par+4.

Otherwise, even with new/better language in the book to cover such an instance, the timing involved would be tough to pin down. Without that other group to "witness" the late start, or an official right on the scene, how does one determine that the clock ran out on the group?

Paul Taylor
Jul 13 2011, 03:56 PM
I think in a case where a whole group (call them group A) is late, the only way to penalize them is if the group that was supposed to be following them through the course (group B) plays through where they should be. In such a case, for each hole that group B plays, beginning with group A's assigned starting hole, each player in group A receives a par+4.

Otherwise, even with new/better language in the book to cover such an instance, the timing involved would be tough to pin down. Without that other group to "witness" the late start, or an official right on the scene, how does one determine that the clock ran out on the group?

That was the exact thinking of the TD.