Bear in mind three things; I only tabulated scores posted on “Furdogs Mountain”, I did not differentiate between Moose and Bear, but you can even handicap ONE OR TWO STROKES AT MOST if that makes you happy, and I only posted scores of people who had two names, or a nickname that is well known. These are completely unbiased statistics. My own bias comes farther down this post.

This is my response to myself (and others) when it comes to “who’s baggin’” around the mini circuit. Hopefully this will at least give insight to what can, and maybe even should, be used for gauging one’s skill level at minis. Keep in mind I am NOT advocating the use of a PDGA ranking to determine where you stand in the Mini skill levels, as those are far more skewed to far tougher courses rather than Chandler Mountain. I had this discussion with Slim today. Minis are NOT a handout, they should be a competition and if you are consistently winning then you should be FORCED up. It’s better to get one or two individuals upset one night than the whole division, ESPECIALLY NOVICE. With that being said, let’s dive in…

Sifting through 70 pages of Furdogs Mountain, here are the mean/median/mode scores of Chandler mountain; comprised of pro, adv, int, and nov. Bear in mind that I ALWAYS counted anything “REC” as “NOVICE” for sake of these numbers.

NOV DIVISION
MEAN 50.89
MEDIAN 50
MODE 50
HIGH 62
LOW 44
W/O 40’S
MEAN 53.25
MEDIAN 52.5
MODE 50

INT DIVISION
MEAN 47.43
MEADIAN 47
MODE 48
HIGH 56
LOW 42

ADV DIVISION
MEAN 45.4
MEADIAN 45
MODE 47
HIGH 59
LOW 37

PRO DIVISION
MEAN 41.8
MEADIAN 42
MODE 44
HIGH 50
LOW 36


So what does this all mean? Well, first off you see the Novice division is full of winning baggers. 23 out of 59 (39%) recorded minis the winner of NOV broke into the 40’s. This really skewed the averages. So I took a second average and got rid of all of the 40’s rounds in NOV and re-tallied the scores. If you look under the “W/O 40” you’ll see the adjusted numbers. Much more realistic, but unfortunately the most common winning score was still 50.

Moving over to INT we see a far more balance of power already taking place. Everything is as it should be, a couple of high numbers and a couple of low numbers. I’d say these averages are SPOT ON. A WINNING score of 47/48 is PERFECT for INT. So if you are an INT, and you are consistently shooting 47-49, then MOVE UP TO ADV.

Finishing up in the Amateur levels, ADV is the most “transitional” of all three AM levels (four if you count REC). This is the razors edge, the grouping for winners is always close to cashing out in PRO. I’d say these numbers, again, are spot on. And the choice to move to pro is a tough balance between personal choice and enough people barking at you.
Now let’s look at each division and their winner, multiple wins in that division is indicated by their name.

ADV INT NOV
Adams, Kenny Adams, Kenny Aaron, Garrett
Boren, Hunter Agent, Tommy Adams, Mike 2x
Carlisle, Jesse 4x Barton, Zach Agent, Tommy
Conners, Mike Benge, Lincoln Baquera, Marco
Cook, Seth Brasfield, Norman Bennett, Dan 3x
Dolan, Phillip Carlisle, Jesse 2x Berryman, Austin
Duff, Dough Carter, Joe Bohn, Justin
Geiger, Jeremy Chee, Daniel Brasfield, Norman
Guardado, Wes Chung, Charlie 2x Bridges, Brent 2x
Harrison, Gary Coberly, Mike Carter, Joe
Hatton, Chris 7x Denton, Dee Curran, Ian 2x
Joshua, Lee Dolan, Phillip Denton, Daniel
Lamproe, Justin Evans, Brad 2x Denton, Dee
Leemhuis, Corey Geiger, Jeremy 2x Denton, Mike
Moyers, Bill 2x Gibbs, Adam Dolan, Phillip 4x
Patton, James 2x Grandstaff, Phil Falis, Fred
Peak, Brandon Grey, Shane 2x Fisher, Rich 3x
Razmus, Kyle 2x Gunn, Joe Joe Fuson, Holden
Razmus, Matt 4x Hindshaw, Harry Sr 2x Grey, Shane
Shipley, Matt 2x Hinshaw, Jarrod 2x Hart, Cota
Smith, Charlie 2x Houdek, Tony 2x Hinshaw, Jarrod
Snakeskin Jacob Lindley Horn, Dan
Thorton, Austin Johnson, Jared Jordan, Brandon
Treat, Micheal Johnson, Jeremiah Karimi, Jason 2x
Wagner, Orville Joshua, Lee Largent, Wade 2x
Walker, Tony Kay, Shane Lindley, Jacob
Whited, Bruan Koehring, Travis Mays, Dustin
Woody, Joel Lamproe, Justin 2x Mays, Jason
Lane, John Minnick, Dennis 2x
Largent, Wade 4x Nance, Ryan
McDaniel, Jason 2x Nelson, Jesse
Minnick, Dennis 2x Nevel, Colton
Minshall, Wayne Rider, Adam 2x
Moody, Logan Robinson, Mike
Moore, Jarod Rose, Mark
Poindexter, Ray Ruley, Justin
Rutyna, John Slane, Sarah
Sanders, Leon Smith, Lamon 2x
Slack, Jack 2x Spencer, Cheyenne
Smith, Lisa Vanbuskirk, Kent
Snakeskin 3x Wade, Tim 2x
Spencer, Justin Watkins, Kelly
Splawn, Travis Whitlatch, Rod
Spoon, Willie Winkle, Ken
Thorton, Austin Yordale, Chris
Thurber, Mike
Tillman, John
Wagner, Orville
Whited, Brian
Wilson, Randy 2x
Young, Russell 2x

Pretty straight forward if you are judging when to move up just by amount of wins per division eh? Let’s look at it a little deeper…keep in mind that I took out scores of those whose names were just “Zach, Nick, TJ” etc, I don’t know who they were, but for this illustration it was miniscule in importance. This shows the division, the score, and the name of that winner. Ties for that day have multiple names next to them.

NOVICE 59 Dennis Minnick
NOVICE 59 Rich Fisher
ADV 59 Snakeskin
NOVICE 58 Phillip Dolan/Fred Falis
NOVICE 57 Mark Rose
NOVICE 57 Rich Fisher
NOVICE 57 TJ
INT 56 John Lane
ADV 56 Jeremy Geiger
NOVICE 55 Jesse Nelson
NOVICE 55 Joe Carter
INT 55 Jay Slack
NOVICE 54 Brent Bridges
NOVICE 54 Chris Yordale
NOVICE 54 Garrett Aaron
NOVICE 54 Lamon Smith
NOVICE 54 Tim Wade
INT 54 Daniel Chee
NOVICE 53 Adam Rider
NOVICE 53 Jason Karimi
NOVICE 53 Sarah Slane
NOVICE 53 Tim Wade/Dustin Mays
ADV 53 Phillip Dolan
NOVICE 52 Brent Bridges
NOVICE 52 Cota Hart
NOVICE 52 Justin Bohn
NOVICE 52 Marco Baquera
NOVICE 52 Mike Denton/Jonny D
NOVICE 52 Wade Largent
INT 52 Jeremy Geiger
INT 52 Randy Wilson/Wade Largent
NOVICE 51 Austin Berryman
NOVICE 51 Jason Karimi
NOVICE 51 Kelly Watkins
NOVICE 51 Rich Fisher
INT 51 Charlie Chung/Travis Splawn
INT 51 Logan Moody
NOVICE 50 Dan Bennett/Ian Curran
NOVICE 50 Dan Horn
NOVICE 50 Dee Denton
NOVICE 50 Ian Curran/Adam Rider
NOVICE 50 Jarrod Hinshaw
NOVICE 50 Kent Vanbuskirk
NOVICE 50 Lamon Smith
NOVICE 50 Wade Largent
INT 50 Austin Thorton
INT 50 Dennis Minnick
INT 50 Jarod Moore
INT 50 Joe Carter
INT 50 Justin Lamproe
INT 50 Leon Sanders
INT 50 Tony Houdek
INT 50 Zach Barton
NOVICE 49 Cheyenne Spencer
NOVICE 49 Danny Bennett
NOVICE 49 Jacob Lindley
NOVICE 49 Jason Mays
NOVICE 49 Rod Whitlatch/Ken Winkle
NOVICE 49 Tommy Agent
INT 49 Brad Evans
INT 49 Dennis Minnick
INT 49 Harry Hindshaw Sr
INT 49 Jay Slack
INT 49 Lisa Smith
INT 49 Mike Thurber
INT 49 Phil Grandstaff
ADV 49 Austin Thorton
ADV 49 Chris Hatton
ADV 49 Justin Lamproe
NOVICE 48 Danny Bennett
NOVICE 48 Dennis Minnick
NOVICE 48 Holden Fuson
NOVICE 48 Mike Adams
NOVICE 48 Ryan Nance
INT 48 Adam Gibbs
INT 48 Brian Whited
INT 48 Harry Hindshaw Sr
INT 48 John Rutyna
INT 48 Russell Young
INT 48 Tommy Agent
INT 48 Wade Largent
INT 48 Wade Largent
INT 48 Willie Spoon
ADV 48 Jesse Carlisle
ADV 48 Joel Woody
NOVICE 47 Daniel Denton
NOVICE 47 Holden Fuson
NOVICE 47 Justin Ruley/Phillip Dolan
NOVICE 47 Norman Brasfield
INT 47 Jared Johnson
INT 47 Jarrod Hinshaw
INT 47 Jesse Carlisle
INT 47 Lincoln Benge
INT 47 Mike Coberly/Snakeskin
INT 47 Norman Brasfield
INT 47 Snakeskin
ADV 47 Charlie Smith
ADV 47 James Patton/Matt Razmus
ADV 47 Lee Joshua
ADV 47 Matt Razmus
ADV 47 Matt Shipley
ADV 47 Matt Shipley
ADV 47 Wes Guardado
NOVICE 46 Mike Adams
NOVICE 46 Mike Robinson
NOVICE 46 Phillip Dolan
INT 46 Charlie Chung/Brad Evans
INT 46 Dee Denton
INT 46 Jeremiah Johnson
INT 46 JoJo Gunn/Jacob Lindley
INT 46 Ray Poindexter
INT 46 Snakeskin
INT 46 Tony Houdek
INT 46 Wade Largent
ADV 46 Brandon Peak
ADV 46 Brian Whited
ADV 46 Charlie Smith
ADV 46 Chris Hatton
ADV 46 Hunter Boren
ADV 46 Orville Wagner
NOVICE 45 Brandon Jordan
NOVICE 45 Shane Grey
INT 45 John Tillman
INT 45 Justin Lamproe
INT 45 Randy Wilson
INT 45 Russell Young
INT 45 Shane Grey
INT 45 Travis Koehring
INT 45 Wayne Minshall
ADV 45 Chris Hatton
ADV 45 Corey Leemhuis/Jesse Carlisle
ADV 45 Matt Razmus
ADV 45 Tony Walker
NOVICE 44 Colton Nevel
NOVICE 44 Phillip Dolan
INT 44 Jason McDaniel
INT 44 Jason McDaniel
INT 44 Jesse Carlisle
INT 44 Justin Spencer
INT 44 Lee Joshua
INT 44 Shane Kay/Kenny Adams
ADV 44 Chris Hatton
ADV 44 Dough Duff
ADV 44 Kenny Adams
ADV 44 Michael Treat
INT 43 Jarrod Hinshaw
INT 43 Jeremy Geiger
INT 43 Phillip Dolan
INT 43 Shane Grey
ADV 43 Jesse Carlisle
ADV 43 Kyle Razmus
ADV 43 Mike Conners
ADV 43 Seth Cook
INT 42 Orville Wagner
ADV 42 Chris Hatton
ADV 42 Matt Razmus
ADV 42 Matt Razmus/Kyle Razmus/Slim
ADV 41 Chris Hatton
ADV 41 Chris Hatton
ADV 41 Jesse Carlisle
ADV 40 James Patton
ADV 40 Slim
ADV 37 Gary Harrison

So let’s summarize here. Now everyone can see the cold hard facts, and they line up SO WELL with what Evan McKee said a looooong time ago (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1381994&postcount=1322)….I completely agree with him in this manner. And here are my own thoughts; NOVICE division, if you win twice you automatically move up, no questions asked, you are no longer a beginner. If you win NOVICE and shoot below 50, then you are automatically bumped up into the INT division and your score goes into the INT division THAT NIGHT (you’ll probably cash out anyways, stop whining bagger). INT DIVISION, if you can shoot, consistently, 47/48 then move up, if you ever shot a 44 or lower in a mini, then you need to move up to ADV. ADV division, very simple, if you’ve shot a 42, hey buddy, you can earn money and not plastic, think about it.

My main problem is I hate when true NOV’s get screwed out of enjoying the game and become disenfranchised with any sort of tournament because of the phrase “it’s always been this way.” I’ve only been on the scene about 9 months, and I hate it already, but I’m not just whining and complaining without backing it up with some form of evidence. I really do hope this helps. And the last thing I want to say, right now, is this….THESE PEOPLE SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO PLAY NOVICE AGAIN AT CHANDLER (I even alphabetized it for you so you can print it out for easy reference!!!)….

Aaron, Garrett
Adams, Kenny
Adams, Mike
Baquera, Marco
Benge, Lincoln
Bennett, Dan
Berryman, Austin
Bohn, Justin
Brasfield, Norman
Bridges, Brent
Carter, Joe
Coberly, Mike
Curran, Ian
Denton, Daniel
Denton, Dee
Denton, Mike
Dolan, Phillip
Evans, Brad
Fisher, Rich
Fuson, Holden
Geiger, Jeremy
Grandstaff, Phil
Grey, Shane
Hindshaw, Harry Sr
Hinshaw, Jarrod
Horn, Dan
Johnson, Jared
Johnson, Jeremiah
Jordan, Brandon
Karimi, Jason
Kay, Shane
Koehring, Travis
Lane, John
Lindley, Jacob
McDaniel, Jason
Minshall, Wayne
Moore, Jarod
Nance, Ryan
Nevel, Colton
Poindexter, Ray
Rainey, Ty
Rider, Adam
Robinson, Mike
Rose, Mark
Ruley, Justin
Rutyna, John
Sanders, Leon
Slane, Sarah
Smith, Lamon
Spencer, Cheyenne
Spencer, Justin
Splawn, Travis
Spoon, Willie
Thurber, Mike
Tillman, John
Vanbuskirk, Kent
Wade, Tim
Wagner, Orville
Whited, Brian
Whitlatch, Rod
Wilson, Randy
Winkle, Ken
Yordale, Chris
Young, Russell

I left out obvious names, Lee Joshua etc…

I tried to clean up the division winners twice now, taking waaay too much formatting to do so....may try again later, but after dealing with the PDGA website tonight I'm done with that.

Tom, First off, kudos for your efforts in trying to get people to play in divisions that they should be playing in. But, after only 9 months "on the scene", your frustrations are not new to any organized competitive competitions.

Remember, most minis are single competitions. You are playing the course, not other golfers. It's your game. If your score reflects, your previously mentioned numbers, in your division, then play in the reflected division. You have the facts. But be ready to be disappointed, your play will not be as consistent as calculations.

If you enter into a competition, be prepared for many variables that may change the outcome of your score and the scores of others. You're a numbers guy obviously and there is no luck in numbers, but there is tons of luck on the course. Every golfer knows it. Hard work and dedication to your game will always best luck, but every day, every golfer has luck, good or bad.

Numbers also do not have feelings, crappy girlfriends, nagging parents, un-thankful children, past-due bills, upset stomachs, broken arms, broken legs, torn Achilles tendons, or whatever else that may have plagued a player that used to play a higher division than the one they want to play any given night at Chandler.

So far as your list of people never allowed to play novice at Chandler again. I don't think any TD wants to alienate anyone. Who said those novice players even played to the set standards and rules of play each throw, each hole? Most on the list aren't even around anymore. You'll see, after some time, a lot of players are just "flashes in the pan". Divisions and player's skills change over time as well. Tulsa has some of the best golfers in the country. Over the past few years, the level of play of those best golfers has improved at a greater rate than that of the entire field (every division). The level of competition changes every round every division every year.

My suggestions?
I believe educating the new/novice golfers is a far better way to aligning divisions than throwing numbers at them. Teaching rules of play and etiquette is a great start. Example: A lot of new golfers will have a "falling putt" until someone tells them.(and then, maybe they'll never learn) You may have 4 golfers on a card that either do not know the rule or will not call them on it, or they may all do it all the time. Don't you think that would change their scores once someone tells them? Education will also help them improve their game. Those that want to learn, will improve. Those that don't, will be those "flashes in the pan".

Good luck to you. See you on the course.

ps Who cares what Evan says anyway?

all time spent on compiling such a list should have been spent throwing discs, and therefore improving one's ability to move past the baggers. cmon up to open.. can't bag in the highest division. cash baby cash

I appreciate the work Tom put into this analysis. Handicapping may be the answer.

A lot of clubs are moving that direction, St Louis for example.

Glad to see my name wasn't on that list. Guess this means I can still play novice. :)

WhiteyBear, I learned about baggers at my first Riverside Glide. Old Wayne Forest is a good guy but even then there was little to keep these guys that nobody knew from coming in and cleaning up.

It's very discouraging and after a while some decide they are better off just playing casual rounds with guys they know and think they might be able to beat.

Personally I couldn't care less about about winning the division because an Ace Pot or big CTP was more attractive.

Now days if I beat ANYBODY it's a big deal and very humiliating to guys that play all the time. :D

If you look back a while you're find that I compiled a list of scores from minis to determine basically the same thing you're talking about with some of these baggers. I find that for the most part TDSA members are more than likely to play where they should but non-members, which most baggers and players are, will throw common sense and ethics out for selfishness as if getting to go to the box to pick out some plastic was like finding the holy grail.:cool:

Ultimately, Survivor Golf where the division as a whole votes out whom they think are the baggers at the end of the round should probably be the way to go.

This Thursday will make all your data useless! Fat ace pot, ace runs on every hole.....no one cares who wins what division!! $200+ ....hell I'm playin novice!

Just the casino factor has me excited!!! I could $100 before the round even starts!

Numbers also do not have feelings, crappy girlfriends, nagging parents, un-thankful children, past-due bills, upset stomachs, broken arms, broken legs, torn Achilles tendons, or whatever else that may have plagued a player that used to play a higher division than the one they want to play any given night at Chandler.

I see alot of excuses bundled in here, the ADV player who doesn't play in a year and bags down to INT or NOV and shoots a 43 still feels pretty darn good taking away the money though. Its not the divisions fault they haven't played in a while. Injuries are completely different, Conners came to Riverside, played INT, and won that night...with a 50, a completely reasonable score for INT. Kudos to MC for coming out and hobbling down the course after having his achilles tendon ripped, I have nothing against that. I have baggage sometimes too, but I don't "play down" just to see if I can win because lfie gets in the way sometimes. Numbers are numbers, a 45 is still a 45 regardless of conditions.

The level of competition changes every round every division every year.

I disagree, the competition changes, but going through four years of data the numbers primarily stayed the same, I can only go by what the information tells me :o

My suggestions?
I believe educating the new/novice golfers is a far better way to aligning divisions than throwing numbers at them. Teaching rules of play and etiquette is a great start...Education will also help them improve their game. Those that want to learn, will improve. Those that don't, will be those "flashes in the pan".

That's a huge key right there, and I agree, and you'll only get that by mixing the cards up. ADV needs to play with NOV etc. Why should everyone always play on the same card?

ps Who cares what Evan says anyway?

I saw his earlier quote and kept it on the side while doing my math, turns out, he was pretty much spot on. Again, this is pure numbers.


Thanks for the well-worded reply Matt, appreciate it. Good luck to you as well.

all time spent on compiling such a list should have been spent throwing discs, and therefore improving one's ability to move past the baggers. cmon up to open.. can't bag in the highest division. cash baby cash

I could not agree anymore with you Paul, that's my goal and I'm putting my hours in almost daily for it.

I appreciate the work Tom put into this analysis. Handicapping may be the answer.


These circumstances are honestly why I don't join the TDSA. Quite frankly, there is no incentive to join whatsoever. If there were added perks then yes, I'd join. Such as;

* NON-TDSA members pay $7 per mini, CTP/ACE are $1 extra each.
* NON-TDSA members pay $2 per mulligan, or whatever 2x the price the TDSA members pay at each event.
* NON-TDSA members that hit an ace get 1/2 the pot minus the TDSA fee (sounds familiar).
* NON-TDSA members can only cash out so much in merchandise (15 for 1st, 10 for 2nd, 5 for third), the remaining balance gets pushed into TDSA member winning or course development.

That alone would be enough reason for me to join. And it wouldn't be that hard to control, when you sign up, show your TDSA year tag, tada, easy for the TD and easy for the member.

Not that there has to be a HUGE change at all, just something to let "regular" players know that the TDSA is trying to fix a systemic problem.

Glad to see my name wasn't on that list. Guess this means I can still play novice. :)

Well, I haven't seen a recent score from you, so I'm guessing you shoot in the 70's ;)

WhiteyBear, I learned about baggers at my first Riverside Glide. Old Wayne Forest is a good guy but even then there was little to keep these guys that nobody knew from coming in and cleaning up.

See above. Differentiate TDSA from NON-TDSA members and give members perks, this will help.

Personally I couldn't care less about about winning the division because an Ace Pot or big CTP was more attractive.

For a NOV, these generally never happen, and you lose your new base of players on a yearly basis.

If you look back a while you're find that I compiled a list of scores from minis to determine basically the same thing you're talking about with some of these baggers.

I did see that, but instead of using old names/numbers, I went for straight division records, it was my goal.

Ultimately, Survivor Golf where the division as a whole votes out whom they think are the baggers at the end of the round should probably be the way to go.

or give them a mandatory "bump-up" if they shoot well enough (see first post)


I get it, I do, most TD's are just as frustrated, if not even more so, than I am.
This is really prevelant amongst two main courses, Riverside and Chandler. GENERALLY SPEAKING, Hunter, Dovillio, McClure, and Haikey generally don't have baggers, the courses are too hard for them.

This Thursday will make all your data useless! Fat ace pot, ace runs on every hole.....no one cares who wins what division!! $200+ ....hell I'm playin novice!

I'm playing Junior, and going to lay the smack down on Dustin Mays and his CTP-robbin' Buzzz.

My goal was this, given four years of data, this should tell any TD at chandler what they can expect from each division. Everyone and their mother should know that NOV's shouldn't (CAN'T) shoot under-par, if they do then they are NOT a NOV. Put up a REC division between NOV and INT if there are enough players, anyone who shoots par or under in NOV gets auto-bumped into REC. Pretty simple strategy.

Until something changes, its always going to be the same, that's guarenteed.