windsurf17
May 28 2011, 06:49 PM
This ditch is OB if wet, but not if dry. In this case, there is a bit of water and where you see Jose's feet, it's soggy but not "wet". It's up on a rock, but not completely in the water. This to me seems like it would be a playable, non-OB lie. Since this ditch is only OB when wet, if the ground is merely soggy and the rock the disc is resting on is touching the soggy ground, then it should be in right? BTW, Jose took the stroke but tied and lost in a playoff. It was a fundraiser event for a buddy and not a big deal, but I'd like to know for the future. Thanks.

cgkdisc
May 28 2011, 07:07 PM
If "completely surrounded by water" is the OB rule here, then the disc is not OB. However, a location that is only sometimes wet should ideally not have the "wet/not wet" rule. It should either remain as casual relief if wet all the time, or be marked in some way such as stakes so the ditch is always OB whether it has water or not.

windsurf17
May 29 2011, 05:12 PM
Thanks for the reply.

This is a city park and the ditch is sometimes full and sometimes dry. There are two fairways it splits and I guess we've chosen this rule configuration though I'm not really sure why. Somewhere along the way someone said so and it's just what I'm used to. Mostly I play casual rounds there, but for this informal fundraising event it was a "tournament". I guess that's my defense of the rule as is but I hadn't put any prior thought into that part.

What you wrote in the first sentence gives me what I wanted to know, basically and I appreciate the reply.

- Hans

ChrisWoj
May 29 2011, 07:16 PM
Tournament Director needs to make the call during the players meeting. Should be addressed pre-round to avoid any confusion. End of story. Did the TD make an announcement regarding the play for that particular day?

krazyeye
May 31 2011, 09:52 PM
I was the TD and could not have forseen such a lie. All locals in the event and we play surrounded by water as OB. Casual on fairways the exception. The question Hans asked is would you consider this sorrounded by water? The way it was described at HQ I would. It was described as leaning on a rock that when moved was in water. The picture leads me to think otherwise. The guys made a judgement call. Which is all they could do. Locals also have the misconception (in my opinion) that a blade of grass over concrete makes a disc in. What can you do?

bravo
Jun 06 2011, 09:36 PM
ask yourself as a td if the players tools look like he's more acomplished than he says he is

JerryChesterson
Jun 06 2011, 10:41 PM
No need for the TD to specify anything. If you are in the middle of the creek you are OB even if you sitting on top of a rock in the creek. Black and white ruling.

krazyeye
Jun 06 2011, 11:37 PM
This ditch pretty much sucks in the confines of the PDGA rules. It needs to be marked as OB period. Marking it is not an option though. A flood removes any markers.

snap7times
Jun 06 2011, 11:47 PM
This is a casual water situation. The TD did not call a clear explanation of the ditch from what I have read, therefore it's casual water and safe.
TD has to make the call before the tournament begins on situations like these. Had a similar situation a few weeks ago that I was the TD of that a player's disc landed on a man made object and was in contention for first place. Took relief and played on since it was not announced as OB.

krazyeye
Jun 14 2011, 05:01 PM
Water in the ditch is OB. Always is always has been and it is always mentioned. OP asked about the lie. Not about the rule. OP stated this "This ditch is OB if wet, but not if dry." It was clear.

jconnell
Jun 14 2011, 05:53 PM
I don't know how anyone can offer any kind of conclusive decision on this because that photo isn't good enough evidence for me to determine one way or the other. I can see that where the player is standing is not submerged, but it isn't clear whether that spot is part of the normally dry fairway (the shore of the stream, if you will) or if it is simply a dry "island" or sand bar within the stream (a place that, if the water was even an inch higher, would be submerged in the middle of the creek). If it's the shore, and the rock is part of the shore, I'd call it in. But if the rock and dry land is actually an island/sandbar, I'd call it OB.

Regardless, I'll echo what has already been said here about this being an extremely poorly marked line. Wet/dry not only makes it difficult to determine whether a disc is in or out, but it also perpetuates the myth that a disc that isn't completely submerged in the water is somehow not OB even if it's in the middle of a lake. Surrounded does not necessarily mean submerged, it means within the boundaries determined by the edges of the body of water. The surface of the water is not an edge of the body of water.

That ditch either needs to be marked permanently (or temporarily with a painted line for the event) or it needs to be treated as casual water. The wet/dry thing is confusing and too easily misconstrued.

futurecollisions
Jun 14 2011, 06:26 PM
casual water

krazyeye
Jun 15 2011, 10:47 AM
casual water No, water is/was declared OB at this course. This is not a fairway it is a difficult to mark drainage ditch. This event was a nonsanctioned fund raiser, the ditch is about 2000' long it gets marked for sanctioned events with OB string. The TD (me) declared water as OB. The guys on the card made the right call in my opinion. They declared it OB. They moved the rock and there was water under it. OB.

The OP asked if the disc was OB if water is declared OB.

krazyeye
Jun 16 2011, 01:00 AM
I am not trying to beat a dead horse. However...

Almost the same lie. I decided to ask my opponent his opinion. Just a little wet and in the ditch.

I took the stroke as I expected. The guy gave me a favorable lie and we moved on. We both knew water was OB.

Wait for it... The gentleman that runs the league does not remind us of how we play the course every week. It is a given. Fun leagues work this way.