futurecollisions
Apr 14 2011, 04:18 PM
I am just curious on the history of where these percentages come from. Why pay out so much of the field? Is this from ball golf?

bruce_brakel
Apr 14 2011, 04:56 PM
I am curious why we need to separate equally skilled players based on whether they have taken cash payouts at past PDGA tournaments. Why split up the field that way? How is a guy who wins a $375 basket more of an amateur than a guy who wins $50 cash? If we need to separate "amateurs" from "professionals" wouldn't it make more sense to draw the line based on annual cash and prizes than on one tournament where you took home $50 after having paid $50 to play?

Patrick P
Apr 14 2011, 08:34 PM
I'll try to take a stab at it Bruce. I think comparison of the near-the-bottom PRO player's receipt vs. the top AM player's receipt is not a valid concept to compare. The difference between PRO and AM payout is the potential optimal gain between the two groups. As an AM, the potential optimal gain is a $375 basket where as a PRO they can receive a top cash prize anywhere from several hundred dollars to say $15,000. Now, if someone wins a $375 basket in MA1 and the top PRO payout in cash is below that amount in one event, then I would question the TD calculation in payout. I haven't looked at any recent events to see if that is the case, but I never thought of it before you mentioned it (curious to see if that has happened).

pgyori
Apr 15 2011, 02:05 PM
Bruce isn't asking "why can a particular player playing am make more than a particular player pro at an event". He's asking about the criteria for restricting a player from participating in an Am division.

To add clarity to Bruce's question:

There are two players A & B, both rated 971. Player A plays only in AM Divisions at tournaments, and has cashed for a $375 basket at his last event. Player B played in a Open division, and placed last cash for $50 (about his entry fee). According to PDGA rules, player A can continue to play in AM divisions, while player B is now a "Pro", and can only play in Open divisions.

Bruce is asking (and i think it is a sensible question) - why is the distinction between who is a pro and who is an am only the fact that a person has accepted cash (rather than merchandise) at a PDGA event? Shouldn't the ratings be the primary indicator rather than whether a person has cashed, especially if "cashing" is/was just getting your entry fee back.

cgkdisc
Apr 15 2011, 02:27 PM
Player B already won the $375 basket last year before turning pro so doesn't need one?

No sport forces Ams to turn Pro and disc golf will likely not be the first to do so. One solution is to just extend the Am ranks with another division (Expert) that goes from 970 up to maybe 1005 (Wiggins was about this when he won Am Worlds last year). Players with ratings under 1005 could still play pro and cash (losing eligibility for Am Majors) but they could also enter Expert. Under this system, players under age 40 with ratings under 970 couldn't move over to play Advanced.

Patrick P
Apr 15 2011, 02:54 PM
Okay, gotcha. At what point should a player move up from AM to PRO? I would agree that the rating system should be a good measure to determine this factor as pgyori mentioned. Maybe adding another AM division above 970 would be a great idea. If the field is too small for this "elite AM" division, then maybe that would motivate some of these lifetime seasoned 970+ baggers who don't have the "%^$"s to move up to pro as they continue to bag in AM year after year.

krupicka
Apr 15 2011, 03:41 PM
Reread Bruce's question. I think he's less concerned with considering more Ams as Pros, and thinking more that many Pros should be considered Am even though they have taken green backs rather than a couple of Rocs.

Patrick P
Apr 15 2011, 07:13 PM
Well, there's going to be players who play PRO who may be amatuers, and PRO players that play in the AM field. It's really just another designation to separate a field of players. One field plays for cash, the other plays for prizes. There's Elite Pros who make a living off cash winnings and sponsors, there are PRO players who win a little cash, and then there's AM players playing OPEN to hopefully improve their game, play with a better field, and have a chance to win some cash.

OPEN = cash winnings
AM = prizes

As far a designation as a PRO player, you gotta compete with the big boys and win some cash to be truly considered a PRO player. If your an AM player winning baskets event after event, well you get the bagger title award and have all your friends telling you to step up.

J A B
Apr 16 2011, 09:02 AM
I would gladly play in the Pro division if the COST of doing so was the same as MM1. Why pay an extra amount, lacking the skill set to make it back?

I do not want more plastic, I would like to play from the "big boy" tee's but, why does it have to cost more?

Not really to point of the original post. Just saying, I would not mind donating to the Pro purse, just don't want to do it at the added cost.

bruce_brakel
Apr 16 2011, 02:00 PM
My apologies to the fellow whose thread I hijacked. PDGA payouts come from a desire on the part of the Board to have some uniformity from one PDGA sanctioned tournament to another and from a variety of other values, such as, whether some lower skilled players should be allowed to play for cash and whether most lower skilled players should go home from a tournament feeling like they won something. If our current payout charts were borrowed from some other sport, mimicking that sport was not an important aim.

But my point is why separate players for competitive purposes based on whether they taken their reward as cash as opposed to some other form? And why base it on taking less cash than the immediate parking lot retail value of some amateur prizes? And why say "These players you must pay in cash and these players you must not?"

Why are we so concerned about who gets cash and who doesn't? And why are we concerned about such small amounts of cash? Seriously, I know people who have gone pro for accepting $10. $10 makes you a pro?

futurecollisions
Apr 17 2011, 09:57 AM
My apologies to the fellow whose thread I hijacked. PDGA payouts come from a desire on the part of the Board to have some uniformity from one PDGA sanctioned tournament to another and from a variety of other values, such as, whether some lower skilled players should be allowed to play for cash and whether most lower skilled players should go home from a tournament feeling like they won something. If our current payout charts were borrowed from some other sport, mimicking that sport was not an important aim.


Thats ok. My point was, our payout seems very spread out and I never understood why we would want to pay half of the field. I think 20% percent or so is plenty high enough.

Patrick P
Apr 18 2011, 02:58 PM
Not sure where they got the suggested payouts either. I think 33% is ideal, 40-50% does seem a little high. Maybe it's that high to spread out the prizes to more players to keep them wanting to comeback to upcoming events.

cgkdisc
Apr 18 2011, 03:29 PM
The U.S. payout table for Pros goes from 40% to 50% depending on how much added cash is in the purse. It was at 33% to 37% up to the late 90s when the top pros lobbied to extend it to 40% to encourage more players to enter Open. The Am payouts were at 40% up to that time. Then the payout table was increased to 45% for Advanced and 50% for other Ams and the steepness of the payout increments was flattened out with the idea to reduce the top payout in comparison to the bottom payout in Open. The International payout table for pros can be 25%, 33% or 40% partly due to tradition, partly due to the cost of running events and partly due to the lack of Amateur divisions.

bruce_brakel
Apr 19 2011, 01:37 AM
I've been playing tournaments for 20 years and have seen the evolution in PDGA payouts. It used to be that a lot of TDs followed their own payout formulas and paying 33% of the field was more common. Back then the amateur payouts were much bigger compared to now, but of course, fewer got any payout.

And Chuck is right that the board did not want first place in advanced getting more than first place in Open. I remember that discussion. They also liked the idea of more amateurs going home with something, so it would be less about scoring a big pile of plastic and more about competing as amateurs.

And back then, drawing some kind of distinction between advanced and open based on having cashed made sense because we did not have ratings. And paying amateurs in plastic was useful because you really could not buy discs in stores. It turned the amateurs into this widespread multi-level marketing scheme.

Now we have stores everywhere and the internet for disc golf equipment marketing, and we have TDs who would be happy to pay more players in cash. We have manufacturers who no longer need the tournaments to pump out their plastic, and would be fine with just wholesaling their plastic to retailers.

How long do we need to cling to a payout scheme that has become outdated?

james_mccaine
Apr 19 2011, 11:07 AM
How long do we need to cling to a payout scheme that has become outdated?
Hopefully not much longer.

An additional factor in paying deeper is the increasing cost of playing tournaments. There was a time, long long ago where one could enter the open field at the big two-day local tourney for $30 or $40 or something. Now that same tourney might be $100 to $150. At $30, folks didn't care as much if they got no return; at $150, it becomes much more of an issue.

seewhere
Apr 19 2011, 11:38 AM
all about the benjamins baby!!

entry fees are riDICulous and what you get for the entry fees is even worse..

twoputtok
Apr 19 2011, 11:48 AM
all about the benjamins baby!!

entry fees are riDICulous and what you get for the entry fees is even worse..


This point of view brought to you from the last card. :D

futurecollisions
Apr 19 2011, 12:03 PM
I think we need to roll the payout back to what it was in the late 90's. This is hurting the sport in my opinion, driving up entry costs and discouraging competitiveness. I think whatever pro's lobbied for this had it completely backwards. What is the incentive to work on your game to get better if you only have to be in the top half to cash? That is not the mentality we should be promoting.

oklaoutlaw
Apr 19 2011, 12:15 PM
As long as we are continuing to play for each others entry fees and have no real sponsors, the entry fees have to continue to increase to satisfy the hunger for winning cash in the "Pro" division. When Disc Golf Tournaments reach a point that each is its own corporate entity (ie...Ball Golf Tourneys), the amount we pay for entry fees will not be a subject of concern.

However, this sport is a LONG way from that. I have seen the evolution over the last 30 years and it is really hard for me to hear people complain about entry fees when that is all they are playing for.

Say what you will, but the only thing to change any of this is HARD WORK from lots of people, and quit relying on a few TDs who are willing to put their hard earned money into it to bring out the silver platter.

Go Thank a TD, help him/her out any way you can, because without them no one would be playing any event.

Jeff_LaG
Apr 19 2011, 12:17 PM
An additional factor in paying deeper is the increasing cost of playing tournaments. There was a time, long long ago where one could enter the open field at the big two-day local tourney for $30 or $40 or something. Now that same tourney might be $100 to $150. At $30, folks didn't care as much if they got no return; at $150, it becomes much more of an issue.

This is 90% of the reason (with slow play being the other 10%) that I haven't played in a PDGA event since 2004.

seewhere
Apr 19 2011, 01:17 PM
This point of view brought to you from the last card. :D

second to last card *** clown!!! :eek:

james_mccaine
Apr 19 2011, 01:23 PM
As long as we are continuing to play for each others entry fees and have no real sponsors, the entry fees have to continue to increase to satisfy the hunger for winning cash in the "Pro" division. When Disc Golf Tournaments reach a point that each is its own corporate entity (ie...Ball Golf Tourneys), the amount we pay for entry fees will not be a subject of concern.

However, this sport is a LONG way from that. I have seen the evolution over the last 30 years and it is really hard for me to hear people complain about entry fees when that is all they are playing for.

This frankly doesn't make any sense to me. I've seen it played out over many iterations. All I've witnessed is the bottom becoming less interested, the middle then becomes the bottom. They then become less interested, and drop out. Then the the next middle becomes the bottom, etc, etc. etc.

Sure, it has made a slightly deeper open field, but while one could once argue that the churn used to wear out guys who maybe shouldn't have been in open, that arguement is losing its power. Now it wears out guys that should be playing open. If one wants to continue to make that arguement, just take it to its logical conclusion: have a tour of 1040 rated players, have them pay $200 per tourney, pay out the top 1/3 or 1/4. Let me know how that turns out. It's a failed theory. Simple gambling economics.

Same rebuttal to the previous post. I understand the theory, but it doesn't play out in the real world. Once again, simple gambling economics.

Since all thinking people agree that the sport will eventually depend on outside sponsorship to survive, this seems like a terribly misguided strategy to follow in the interim.

Sharky
Apr 19 2011, 03:25 PM
REC keeps me playing pro, I don't need any more merch and with the current structure and a rating of 922 I have a Resonable Expectation of Cashing in pro GM at lower tiered events if the % paid out is less then marginal players like myself will find another division.

davidsauls
Apr 20 2011, 09:23 AM
From one TD's perspective, a great deal of this is not driven by the payout system (which I don't like, either), but by the players and the disc golf culture.

Is this structure running off players? Maybe some, but tournament participation keeps growing.

Most cases I've seen where a TD tried a low-entry-fee, low-payout (Ams) tournament, attendance was poor. Some exceptions, of course, but an awful lot of players are used to the status quo and resistant to change. As a TD, there's a strong tendency to do what the players want, or at least what we perceive the players want.

*

My biggest gripe with the deep payouts is the long awards ceremony. Why should someone who barely beat half the field have his name announced, let alone be rewarded? Yet when I proposed that we only announce the winners and just post the payouts for everyone else, with players picking up their winnings after the awards, the proposal was soundly defeated.

Sharky
Apr 20 2011, 10:25 AM
I am all for only announcing say the top three in each division at the awards ceremony. I am seeing that more often here in the mid Atlantic region and most seem to like the change.

Jeff_LaG
Apr 20 2011, 03:21 PM
From one TD's perspective, a great deal of this is not driven by the payout system (which I don't like, either), but by the players and the disc golf culture.

Is this structure running off players? Maybe some, but tournament participation keeps growing.

Most cases I've seen where a TD tried a low-entry-fee, low-payout (Ams) tournament, attendance was poor. Some exceptions, of course, but an awful lot of players are used to the status quo and resistant to change. As a TD, there's a strong tendency to do what the players want, or at least what we perceive the players want.

Indeed, the problem is that the players have been weaned on the current payout system for so long that they would cry bloody murder if it were ever changed. While a move to a low-entry-fee w/ player's pack, low-payout tournament system would be healthiest thing from a spirit of competition standpoint, it would never go over. The lure of winning each other's entry fees (and for Ams, selling merchandise won on eBay or other venues) is too ingrained to ever overcome. And this is unlikely to ever change until there is significant corporate sponsorship, which is in itself seemingly a pipe dream. :(

JerryChesterson
Apr 20 2011, 03:56 PM
FYI, Ball Golf events generally poay out everyone who makes the cut gets paid. For the masters that was over 50% of the field. Of course, they are relying on entry fees as the prodominent method of funding the purse.

bruce_brakel
Apr 20 2011, 03:58 PM
Most cases I've seen where a TD tried a low-entry-fee, low-payout (Ams) tournament, attendance was poor. Some exceptions, of course, but an awful lot of players are used to the status quo and resistant to change. As a TD, there's a strong tendency to do what the players want, or at least what we perceive the players want.

Yeah, but can you imagine the attendance if we left the plastic at Innova's warehouse and just let everyone, or almost everyone, or as many as the TD might decide play for small amounts of cash? Why does it have to be cash and unsanctioned, or plastic and sanctioned? Why not have a rule that says, "If the TD wants to pay your ratings protected division cash, he can"? When i was a TD mainly for the intangibles, there was no reason why I couldn't have run Advanced and Intermediate as cash-paid divisions and still cover my expenses. Except, it was against the PDGA rules. The main reason for that rule has been taken care of by ratings.

So what's the point of mandatory plastic payouts for ratings protected divisions? The manufacturers don't care anymore. Tournament sales are a pain in the toucas for them, a legacy service. The players would have no objection. Whose interest does mandatory plastic payouts protect?

I don't get it.

davidsauls
Apr 20 2011, 04:10 PM
Well, the pros, to start with. It encourages the better ams to play pro and add to the pro field, and the pro purse, once they're sick of new plastic and uninterested in selling it. And of course the wholesale/retail margin covers tournament costs (that otherwise pros might have to contribute to), TD or club profits, and/or added cash to the pro division.

Oddly enough, there's more pleasure in winning $30 in merchandise, especially if it's a voucher and I can choose the merchandise, than $30 cash. Or $20 cash, as it would be. Speaking as a lifetime am, winning $20 or $30 cash for finishing 8th is such a pittance as to be uninteresting; somehow the merchandise is. Not sure why.

None of which means that I personally like this system. I'd much prefer a system of $20-$25 entry fees for the privilege of playing---no prizes, no players packs, no "return on investment"---just an admission charge for the chance to play in a tournament, and perhaps a trophy if I win.

futurecollisions
Apr 21 2011, 11:34 AM
Why should someone who barely beat half the field have his name announced, let alone be rewarded?

This is exactly how I feel and was the point of starting this thread.

Another problem is how poorly the current payout translates to smaller local events.

JerryChesterson
Apr 21 2011, 01:50 PM
This is exactly how I feel and was the point of starting this thread.

Another problem is how poorly the current payout translates to smaller local events.

I believe as the TD you can set the % paid out to whatever you want. It is within your power to say First gets 100% of the payout, everyone else gets squadouche.

cgkdisc
Apr 21 2011, 02:29 PM
I believe as the TD you can set the % paid out to whatever you want. It is within your power to say First gets 100% of the payout, everyone else gets squadouche.
Not if the TD signs off on their sanctioning agreement to agree to PDGA payout guidelines, although special payout structures can be approved by the Tour Manager.

Karl
Apr 21 2011, 02:44 PM
As for David's...

"Oddly enough, there's more pleasure in winning $30 in merchandise, especially if it's a voucher and I can choose the merchandise, than $30 cash. Or $20 cash, as it would be. Speaking as a lifetime am, winning $20 or $30 cash for finishing 8th is such a pittance as to be uninteresting; somehow the merchandise is. Not sure why.

None of which means that I personally like this system. I'd much prefer a system of $20-$25 entry fees for the privilege of playing---no prizes, no players packs, no "return on investment"---just an admission charge for the chance to play in a tournament, and perhaps a trophy if I win."

...I think this is spot on (minus the $20-$25 being a bit high IMO)! Although I thought I was the only AM who oddly thought that $x in funny money was neater to win than $x in real money :o although with the USD going south, this may not be so odd in the near future :(


As for the payouts, personally, I wouldn't mind if the PDGA "relaxed" the payout spreads a little PROVIDING that the TD disclose everything UP FRONT! Let the players choose with their feet (which is hard to do though if they don't know before showing up).

Karl

Ps: And I'm not EVEN going to start with the Pro / AM thing....

futurecollisions
Apr 21 2011, 04:27 PM
I believe as the TD you can set the % paid out to whatever you want. It is within your power to say First gets 100% of the payout, everyone else gets squadouche.

Yes, thats what I try to tell them, but because the PDGA has set these numbers its stuck in everyones head and they wont budge. I'm not talking about just sanctioned events, even mini's and leagues.

james_mccaine
Apr 21 2011, 08:11 PM
Yes, thats what I try to tell them, but because the PDGA has set these numbers its stuck in everyones head and they wont budge. I'm not talking about just sanctioned events, even mini's and leagues.

Why don't you run some $100 a head, winner take all minis. See how it plays out.

futurecollisions
Apr 21 2011, 11:03 PM
Why don't you run some $100 a head, winner take all minis. See how it plays out.

Funny, but I think there is a happy medium that is somewhere between winner take all and paying half the field

davidsauls
Apr 22 2011, 08:26 AM
As for the payouts, personally, I wouldn't mind if the PDGA "relaxed" the payout spreads a little PROVIDING that the TD disclose everything UP FRONT! Let the players choose with their feet (which is hard to do though if they don't know before showing up).



I'm with you.

(Although the payout tables do give us TDs some cover. If players complain, we can point to the PDGA guidelines. If we make the decisions, we have to defend them!)

Patrick P
Apr 22 2011, 03:51 PM
A lot of good input here on payouts. I reviewed the TD documents in its entirety and have to say, what a sham. As per the 2011 Sanction Agreement it states that TDs are to ”agree to pay a minimum of 45% of the AM field as per the pay tables”. So let’s take a recent event for example. 29 players entered MA1, and after other fees taken out, each player puts in $45 * 29 players = $1,305 payout. So according to PDGA guidelines, a minimum of 13 players (45%) are to be paid out in this division. Then when you look at the Pay Tables under AMs, it shows how much % each player should be awarded of the payout. 1st place is to be awarded 11.5%, while 2nd place is 11%, 3rd place is 10.5%, and it keeps going down in 5-10% increments. So 1st place should be awarded $150 (11.5% * 1,305) while 2nd place should be awarded $145 (11% * 1,305), and 3rd place $140 (10.5% * 1,305). Are you serious, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place difference is a mere $5??? This is probably about the most asinine thing I have ever seen in the PDGA.

Now, I don’t think there is any tournament that has followed these guidelines that I have participated in, so I’m sure somewhere in the 15 or so TD document resources, it stipulates alternatives (I have yet to find it). Back to the example of the recent event, 40% of the players were actually paid out. And 1st place MA1 received a Mach 3 basket+shwag, for a grand prize value of $438 (33.3% of the payout). 2nd place received $200 (15% payout), and 3rd received $120 (9% payout). The remaining players received payouts in increments less of $5-10 payouts between them.

1. Is there something in the guidelines that allows a TD to payout other than the calculated payout on the Electronic TD report?

2. When a top prize is paid out to 1st place such as a sweet basket, is there any rules in the guidelines that prevents this? Obviously, the payout of a basket exceeds 11.5% payout as calculated in this Pay Table example.

3. Is it just me, or is the Pay Table ridiculous? And who actually follow these guidelines? Seriously, $5 difference between 1st , 2nd, and 3rd in this example?

I think 45% minimum payout is too high. I felt 40% payout in which the TD provided was very generous, and I still think the payout should be lowered to 33%.

I played in an A-tier event before and finished T9 of 16 players, and got shwag I didn’t feel I deserved one bit. Yeah, I was surprised I got something and it was cool, but I felt like it was a handout. Please, let people work for their payout. The player’s package is your free shwag for signing up. Payout should be earned, not handed out so we can make everyone feel jolly for a mediocre performance!

futurecollisions
Apr 22 2011, 06:03 PM
A lot of good input here on payouts. I reviewed the TD documents in its entirety and have to say, what a sham. As per the 2011 Sanction Agreement it states that TDs are to �agree to pay a minimum of 45% of the AM field as per the pay tables�. So let�s take a recent event for example. 29 players entered MA1, and after other fees taken out, each player puts in $45 * 29 players = $1,305 payout. So according to PDGA guidelines, a minimum of 13 players (45%) are to be paid out in this division. Then when you look at the Pay Tables under AMs, it shows how much % each player should be awarded of the payout. 1st place is to be awarded 11.5%, while 2nd place is 11%, 3rd place is 10.5%, and it keeps going down in 5-10% increments. So 1st place should be awarded $150 (11.5% * 1,305) while 2nd place should be awarded $145 (11% * 1,305), and 3rd place $140 (10.5% * 1,305). Are you serious, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place difference is a mere $5??? This is probably about the most asinine thing I have ever seen in the PDGA.

Now, I don�t think there is any tournament that has followed these guidelines that I have participated in, so I�m sure somewhere in the 15 or so TD document resources, it stipulates alternatives (I have yet to find it). Back to the example of the recent event, 40% of the players were actually paid out. And 1st place MA1 received a Mach 3 basket+shwag, for a grand prize value of $438 (33.3% of the payout). 2nd place received $200 (15% payout), and 3rd received $120 (9% payout). The remaining players received payouts in increments less of $5-10 payouts between them.

1. Is there something in the guidelines that allows a TD to payout other than the calculated payout on the Electronic TD report?

2. When a top prize is paid out to 1st place such as a sweet basket, is there any rules in the guidelines that prevents this? Obviously, the payout of a basket exceeds 11.5% payout as calculated in this Pay Table example.

3. Is it just me, or is the Pay Table ridiculous? And who actually follow these guidelines? Seriously, $5 difference between 1st , 2nd, and 3rd in this example?

I think 45% minimum payout is too high. I felt 40% payout in which the TD provided was very generous, and I still think the payout should be lowered to 33%.

I played in an A-tier event before and finished T9 of 16 players, and got shwag I didn�t feel I deserved one bit. Yeah, I was surprised I got something and it was cool, but I felt like it was a handout. Please, let people work for their payout. The player�s package is your free shwag for signing up. Payout should be earned, not handed out so we can make everyone feel jolly for a mediocre performance!

Well said!!!!!

Patrick P
Apr 22 2011, 06:21 PM
And the TD announces " Welcome to the XYZ Super A Tour, where we will be paying out 110% back to 50% of the players...". Later at the awards ceremony, "Ok, we had 50 players in the MA1 division. Coming in 25th place, Joe Smoe. Here's your generic DX plastic, you'll never throw. Coming in 24th Place Ricky Hall, come get your DX plastic, we had this sitting around our Pro Shop collecting dust, which nobody wanted to buy. Coming in 23rd place, Hector Garcia, here's your swirly DX plastic disc and you get a generic mini...."

Really, is this what the PDGA AMs is about?

1. Change payout to 33%.
2. TDs, quit trying to unload your unsold crap plastic from your pro shop, and take some time to get custom stamped discs and unique prizes. Buy something rare online, provide a prize that is unique, such as a gift certificate to a Dry-Fit custom embroidery shop where you can get your own personalized shirt that is actually your size. How about a custom disc golf bag from "No Excuses Disc Golf", or a gift certificate from REI to purchase those new KEEN shoes.

I'm tired of getting pro shop crap plastic that no one bought over the last two years, so I can turn around and try to sell it on e-bay. I'd rather take a custom 1 of 10 STAR stamped KC Pro Avery Aviar putter over 5 DX discs.

And don't tell me, just go PRO, and then you can buy your own shwag if you can’t appreciate getting pro shop shwag. I’m looking out for all the AM players competing in PDGA sanctioned events, from beginners to 10year seasoned MA1 baggers.

And don't tell me, well maybe you should run your own event, if you don't like it. Common, that's not the answer. We need better events, more organized, originality, creativity, and something to play for, than a $3 homemade cardboard-styrofoam spray painted gold trophy.

2nd year into playing PDGA events, and I'm already starting to toss my winnings off a mountain so they don't collect dust in my closet. And don’t tell me just give it out to some kid or new beginner. I gave away over 70 discs in my first PDGA year. Now common, let’s get our act together, TDs and PDGA.

tkieffer
Apr 22 2011, 06:54 PM
And this is what PDGA Am's is all about?

futurecollisions
Apr 22 2011, 10:52 PM
Patrick is dead on. Im surprised this wasnt brought up until now. How can we get the payout put back to where it should be?

tkieffer
Apr 22 2011, 11:30 PM
Dead on? Being an am involves starting to toss your winnings off mountains? Giving away 70 discs in your first year? Being an am involves the pursuit of bigger payouts?

I think the Memorial may have a better idea. Worry about a good return for all involved at the am level as opposed to the top 3rd.

What gives the top 3rd the right to expect a greater return on their investment than the volunteers, TD and so on? What compels the bottom 2/3rds to continue to pick up the tab so the top can complain that it still isn't good enough and who value things so little that they 'throw it off mountains'?

From my perspective, it would make more sense for a TD to pay out 25% of the fees and added donations taken in and put the other 75% in the pockets of the people who put the event together or towards the cause (i.e. local course improvement, etc.) that they see fit.

If you really want to see better quality tournaments, then consider that the rewards may be better off directed towards making it more desirable to run tournaments.

PhattD
Apr 23 2011, 12:32 AM
Keep in mind that clubs that host tournaments profit on the am payouts because they buy the merch wholesale. So when a tournament pays out 110% to the ams the are still keeping about 30% for course improvement, upkeep, new courses etc. The club gets nothing for hosting pros and typically loses money to the pro field in A tiers unless they can get all the added cash from sponsors. I would have no problem with the club keeping more of the payout to improve the local disc golf scene. But I really don't care for the flat payout scale that the PDGA reccomends. You can still patout 45% of the field and have the spread be more weighted towards the top end. Another idea I've heard is to have the AM3 payout be very flat AM1 be fairly steep and AM2 be an average of the two. That way if you are good enough to do well in the higher division you will get more by doing so.

Patrick P
Apr 23 2011, 12:59 AM
Dead on? Being an am involves starting to toss your winnings off mountains? Giving away 70 discs in your first year? Being an am involves the pursuit of bigger payouts? After playing 16 PDGA events, monthlies, weekly doubles, and several Ice Bowls in one year, a player can easily collect over 100 discs. What am I to do with all these discs? So, yes I donated discs to new players, seasoned players, kids, people that never played disc golf, and donated the discs back to upcoming events for raffle. I'm not asking for bigger payouts, just better prizes and a realistic payout percentage. And yeah, when you’re up 4,000ft at Wrightwood and have a few extra DX discs your not going to use, then let them fly.

I think the Memorial may have a better idea. Worry about a good return for all involved at the am level as opposed to the top 3rd. This is a competitive sport, save the charity events for Ice Bowls (that's what their about). But when it comes to competition time, then bring your game on, and give out prizes to the top winners, instead of giving out winnings to 25 of the 50 players in one division. And if I finish in the bottom 2/3rds, well guess what, back to the drawing board and practice to be more competitive come game time. And every AM at "The Memorial in Scottdales/Fountain Hills" already receives an awesome players pack just for signing up. So when the gates swing open, lets compete and reward those who played well just like any other professional sport.

From my perspective, it would make more sense for a TD to pay out 25% of the fees and added donations taken in and put the other 75% in the pockets of the people who put the event together or towards the cause (i.e. local course improvement, etc.) that they see fit. I'm all for events that are aimed at raising money for local groups to improve disc golf. Been a local member, Socal member, and PDGA member three years running. I also volunteer at many of these events, helping out TDs with various tasks, setting up tables, picking up trash, putting up signs, checking score cards, breakin down, and selling raffle tickets. And you know what, I never expect or ask for a single thing for doing it. That's what volunteerism is about. If I get a disc or a simple thank you for helping, it doesn't matter, I'm glad to do my part to help out and make this sport a success. It's my way of giving back and helping disc golf grow. But to take 75% of the money and put it into a TDs pocket for running an event, really? I don't think that would jive with anyone.

Patrick P
Apr 23 2011, 01:07 AM
You can still payout 45% of the field and have the spread be more weighted towards the top end. Another idea I've heard is to have the AM3 payout be very flat, AM1 be fairly steep and AM2 be an average of the two. That way if you are good enough to do well in the higher division you will get more by doing so. Very good idea. Some events will payout baskets to top winners in each division except Rec or Novice.

Patrick P
Apr 23 2011, 03:38 AM
Another idea for payouts. Players in the following divisions will be paid out as such in the following tier events:

C tiers =
MA4/FW3/J - 100%
MA3/MG1/MS1/FG1 - 50%
MA2/FW2/MM1/FM1 - 40%
MA1/FW1 - 33%

B tiers =
MA4/FW3 - 50%
MA3/MG1/MS1/FG1/J - 40%
MA2/FW2/MM1/FM1 - 40%
MA1/FW1 - 33%

A tiers =
MA4/FW3 - 33%
MA3/MG1/MS1/FG1/J - 33%
MA2/FW2/MM1/FM1 - 33%
MA1/FW1 - 33%

The idea behind this payout grid is that as players progress in higher skill level, they have to perform at a higher level within their division to place. Larger events and these suggested payouts are to attract higher level of competition and a desire to play skillfully to win a prize. All players already receive a players package, so if you want to win more shwag then compete for it!

oklaoutlaw
Apr 25 2011, 11:21 AM
One of Webster's Definition of AMATEUR

2: one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession



World English Dictionary - amateur (ˈ�mətə, -tʃə, -ˌtjʊə, ˌ�məˈtɜː)

1. a person who engages in an activity, esp a sport, as a pastime rather than professionally or for gain


So you want to be called an Amateur, but not be an Amateur by definition? The PDGA's definition of Amateur is "don't win cash" however if you are playing for "Gain", you are not an amateur. No I don't agree with the PDGA and I don't agree that Ams should win piles of merch.

Ams should pay $5 and the top 3 get trophies and the experience. Then when they are ready to test the waters and "GAIN" something, pay more and play Open.

I know this will upset some people. It just so happens that anytime anyone voices their personal opinions, someone feels their toes have been stepped on. So, say what you will this is just my personal opinion.

bruce_brakel
Apr 25 2011, 12:50 PM
I think by those definitions most of our pros are amateurs. :D

bruce_brakel
Apr 25 2011, 12:50 PM
Or did I mean to say most of our amateurs are pros? :D

Patrick P
Apr 25 2011, 01:14 PM
If the PDGA wants to lower entry fees, and we just play for trophies, I'm cool with that. Any other sport I've played gives out only trophies, not merchandise. But if their into giving out merchandise for payouts, then might as well be something worthwhile.

oklaoutlaw
Apr 25 2011, 02:29 PM
I think by those definitions most of our pros are amateurs. :D

Yes ;)

oklaoutlaw
Apr 25 2011, 02:30 PM
Or did I mean to say most of our amateurs are pros? :D

and yes ;)

tkieffer
Apr 25 2011, 02:33 PM
If the PDGA wants to lower entry fees, and we just play for trophies, I'm cool with that. Any other sport I've played gives out only trophies, not merchandise. But if their into giving out merchandise for payouts, then might as well be something worthwhile.

I think you mean "if the TDs" instead of "if the PDGA". The TDs follow guidelines for sanctioning, but it is ultimately their call on what the payout will contain and how it will be delivered, whether it be primarily in players packs and added benefits for all or end of tournament swag for a percentage of the top finishers.

davidsauls
Apr 25 2011, 02:42 PM
While I'm not crazy about the broad payouts---or, indeed, the Am payouts---one rationale is that they increase attendance; in a sport where we're almost exclusively playing for each other's entry fees, this increases the purse.

If you pay out the top 25% and have 20 players in a division, 5 get paid. It might be hard to draw additional players into that scheme.

If you pay out the top 50% it seems more lucrative to the players who may not be able to win, but at least see a chance of getting their entry fee back, perhaps a little more, if they play well. If this increases attendance to 40 players in a division, you're paying the top 20 and almost everyone feels that's in reach. You've doubled the total purse, so the winners get about the same thing.

This rationale may not be born out by facts, but it is one thought behind broader payouts, in both Pro & Am divisions.

Patrick P
Apr 25 2011, 02:59 PM
After reading the TD documents, completing the TD Report, and reviewing the Pay Tables, my question is:

What allows a TD to circumvent the payout guidelines?

On page 3 of the 2011 SantionAgreementV1-3, line item 9, it states " Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the pay tables."

I am asking this question because I would be interested in running an event someday. I am doing my preliminary research, and I am confused as to the vailidity of the TD documents, when I have yet to see not one TD follow these guidelines in any event I have played. Is it just customary to treat these guidelines as suggestions, or is there some process or requirement for a TD to bypass these guidelines?

davidsauls
Apr 25 2011, 05:12 PM
Properly---there's a place to submit exceptions, for tour manager's approval.

Practically---I doubt the PDGA is auditing the TD reports; if the TD varies, someone would have to complain to the PDGA to bring it to their attention.

Ultimately---the PDGA has no real police powers, and most rely on the goodwill of the TDs (and players) to follow their guidelines.

For what it's worth, the recommended payouts seem to be followed pretty much regularly around here.

JenniferB
May 23 2011, 11:54 PM
As someone who needs neither the money nor the merch, I would prefer to allow (or even require) TDs to move some percentage of the entry fees from the am divisions into the pro payout, and require certain minimum amounts of added cash for the men and lady pros (not just that a minimum exist). Plus, there should be some kind of incentive for pros to give clinics, and TDs to arrange for final rounds where ams can witness the pros do amazing tricks.

Then, the entry fee for ams becomes more like buying a ticket to see a performance. It would also help if players can search the entries by name, rating, ranking, etc. and see where other players are going to be playing. I think it would make it easier for pros to live on payouts and attract outside sponsors (including those that have nothing to do with disc golf), because the pros can promote those businesses to their fans.

davidsauls
May 24 2011, 09:45 AM
As someone who needs neither the money nor the merch, I would prefer to allow (or even require) TDs to move some percentage of the entry fees from the am divisions into the pro payout, and require certain minimum amounts of added cash for the men and lady pros (not just that a minimum exist). Plus, there should be some kind of incentive for pros to give clinics, and TDs to arrange for final rounds where ams can witness the pros do amazing tricks.



This very well may be unpopular with the Ams, reducing tournament attendance or making non-sanctioned events more attractive, and defeating the purpose.

As a practical manner, a portion of Am entry fees often to to Pro purses. It's the margin on the merchandise, which TDs may use to supplement pro purses or at least cover tournament expenses.

In my experience, structuring tournaments to the Ams can watch the Pro finals has been quite unpopular. Most Ams don't want to hang around for several hours after their final round; they'd like to wrap things up and hit the road rather than be coerced into a gallery. (I've pondered how to structure things so the Pros are wrapping up their final 6 or 9 holes after the Ams are finished---The Ams could watch during the normally-dead time while scores and prizes are being tabulated).

Patrick P
May 24 2011, 01:02 PM
I actually enjoy tournaments that allow the AMs to watch the PROs play a final 9 or a safari setup. These are my more memorable events and it's exciting to watch top level pros compete. Plus it gives us the oppurtunity in person to learn shots, different lines, and how pros approach the game competitively. This is definitely an added benefit to any 2+day event. It's kind of a bummer when you drive out-of-town for a two day A-tier event and know that some of the best players in the world are out there on the field and you don't get a chance to see their performance.

In one of our local events, we have a Final Skins match that pairs up AM players with PRO players, and draws a big crowd for the finale of the event. It's usually the conversation peice that you find people will still be talking about well after the event has ended. I was fortunate to play in this Final Skins match against Dave Feldberg and Steve Rico. I ended up making a sudden death putt for a $1,000 and it still is brought up in conversation.

Check out the Final Skins video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG9g7uTWkDg

rondpit
May 24 2011, 02:19 PM
My biggest gripe with the deep payouts is the long awards ceremony. Why should someone who barely beat half the field have his name announced, let alone be rewarded? Yet when I proposed that we only announce the winners and just post the payouts for everyone else, with players picking up their winnings after the awards, the proposal was soundly defeated.

Well, at least you voiced your reservations out loud. So, far I have only harbored such thoughts in my head. Posting here doesn't count; I don't think the other 13 people on this forum play in my area. :)
Ron

davidsauls
May 24 2011, 02:34 PM
Well, at least you voiced your reservations out loud. So, far I have only harbored such thoughts in my head. Posting here doesn't count; I don't think the other 13 people on this forum play in my area. :)
Ron

Hard as it is to believe, sometimes what I think is best, and what other people think is best, sometimes isn't the same thing.

Incredibly, sometimes the other people are proven right.

davidsauls
May 24 2011, 02:41 PM
I actually enjoy tournaments that allow the AMs to watch the PROs play a final 9 or a safari setup. These are my more memorable events and it's exciting to watch top level pros compete. Plus it gives us the oppurtunity in person to learn shots, different lines, and how pros approach the game competitively. This is definitely an added benefit to any 2+day event. It's kind of a bummer when you drive out-of-town for a two day A-tier event and know that some of the best players in the world are out there on the field and you don't get a chance to see their performance.



I'm sure some Ams like this. But in my experience, I've heard far more complaints from Ams for either (1) behind held back an extra hour or two or (2) having their playing time cut short, such as only 1 round on Sunday. Of course, a lot of my experience is a B or C tiers where the "top" pros aren't there, and the top local pros, we've seen them play before.

I'd like it IF the pros started their final 9 right after the finish of Round 4. Perhaps an official with the top 2 or 3 pro cards who could do some instant score verification and updates, and get that final 9 started with minimal delay. Or some concept that has the Pros starting an hour later than everyone else so they're coming down their fnal holes when the everyone else is finished. Or something.

Patrick P
May 24 2011, 03:19 PM
Dave, I think it comes down to TD management and experience. There's always going to be a delay when players start turning in their final cards and for the TD staff to check scores and post final results at the event. In my experience this break period is good to sell last minute raffle tickets and still offer hole-in-one contests.

Usually, the larger two day events will have two courses to play on. So Day 1, both fields should play two rounds. Second day, each field plays one round. If the AMs do happen to finish before the PROs, which is a rarity, then this is a good time to go play a few holes on the course with some friends they haven't seen for a while. Usually, within an hour, the scores should be all tallied up and the Final 9 should begin.

Some ideas to cut out the long drawn-out awards ceremony is to only announce the top 3 or up to the top 10 players in the divisions. If your playing at an A-tier, I really don't care to hear players that finish 11th through 25th in a field of 50. Or better yet, as I mentioned in an earlier post, in A-tiers payout only 33% of the field.

rhett
May 24 2011, 08:53 PM
To me there is nothing worse than being held hostage at the end of a tourney with an hour-plus delay before a contrived safari final-9 finally starts. The safari-9 then takes forever to complete, and safari holes are typically designed with no more thought than "hey, this would be cool..." and provide little to no score separation. Plus they favor the course locals even more.

For me, if a final-9 is to be held it requires a very fast turnaround from the end of the last round and should always be played on regular tourney holes to be more fair to the competitors who've made it that far.

All IMO of course.

JenniferB
May 24 2011, 11:10 PM
In multi card divisions, I think it would add something to have an award of some sort for whomever wins the card in the final round. I mean, usually the cards in the final round have players of very similar skill level. So I magine it would make playing the bottom card, for example, a lot more interesting if the winner of the card gets an award of some kind, like a small amount of merch, or a collectable and displayable trophy that can be worn on a chain or rope with similar trophies, like a medal, bead, bag tag, or something like that. Alternatively or additionally, each card could have a skins match in the final round. Even if each skin is only worth $1 in merch, it's something to help make it more interesting. I'd be interested to hear other people's impressions.

cgkdisc
May 24 2011, 11:30 PM
It's not uncommon for players to cook up some sort of sidebet among the group in the last round based on score, skins, number of birdies, etc. Stork is famous for his sidebets with milkshakes as the stakes.

bruce_brakel
May 25 2011, 07:58 AM
In multi card divisions, I think it would add something to have an award of some sort for whomever wins the card in the final round. I mean, usually the cards in the final round have players of very similar skill level. So I magine it would make playing the bottom card, for example, a lot more interesting if the winner of the card gets an award of some kind, like a small amount of merch, or a collectable and displayable trophy that can be worn on a chain or rope with similar trophies, like a medal, bead, bag tag, or something like that. Alternatively or additionally, each card could have a skins match in the final round. Even if each skin is only worth $1 in merch, it's something to help make it more interesting. I'd be interested to hear other people's impressions.On rainy days at IOS tournaments Jon, Brett and Scott sometimes do this as part of the tournament instead of CTPs. Borrowing a term from the MDGO, they call it FlightLife. If there is a mixed card where it would not be a fair game, instead of giving it to the card winner, it goes to the most improved lpayer on the card.

ERicJ
May 25 2011, 06:46 PM
In multi card divisions, I think it would add something to have an award of some sort for whomever wins the card in the final round. I mean, usually the cards in the final round have players of very similar skill level. So I magine it would make playing the bottom card, for example, a lot more interesting if the winner of the card gets an award of some kind, like a small amount of merch, or a collectable and displayable trophy that can be worn on a chain or rope with similar trophies, like a medal, bead, bag tag, or something like that. Alternatively or additionally, each card could have a skins match in the final round. Even if each skin is only worth $1 in merch, it's something to help make it more interesting. I'd be interested to hear other people's impressions.
Interesting idea... but how do you deal with situations like this:

For simplicity, there are eight players in a division who going into the final round have these scores:
53
55
58
58
58
58
62
64

Which two of the four "58" players go on top card, and which two go on bottom card?

It would seem like you'd want a pre-defined, documented, method for grouping the players as to prevent favoritism in assigning the cards.

krupicka
May 25 2011, 06:53 PM
We always do it by PDGA #. The lower PDGA number goes on the top card.

cgkdisc
May 25 2011, 07:44 PM
The 58s are ranked in the same order as in the round before regardless what method was used the round before.

ERicJ
May 27 2011, 02:04 AM
The 58s are ranked in the same order as in the round before regardless what method was used the round before.
Is that a written PDGA rule or is that just the way you're recommending?

cgkdisc
May 27 2011, 02:29 AM
It's a default rule. If players are ranked a certain way before R1 (whatever method is used whether random, order of registration, PDGA numbers, last name), if players tie in R1 they should retain the same order. If they continue to tie in later rounds, they retain their same order. There's no justification for changing the order. It's the same as bag tags. The player with the higher number retains it if they shoot the same score as those challenging.

keithjohnson
May 27 2011, 02:43 AM
Chuck is correct if players stay tied EVERY ROUND from round 1 going into round 4 (rules only state a consistently applied manner is used) but unless you are tied EVERY round, the HOT SCORE form the previous round would be the tie breaker.

Player A 56-55-58=169
Player B 55-56-58=169
Player C 54-57-58=169

The players should be listed in THIS order (contrary to what Kansas City Course Directors in 2009 Worlds believe) as HOT round ALWAYS is the first tiebreaker and in the second round shown above A beat B who beat C.

futurecollisions
May 27 2011, 11:27 AM
Put the payout to 25% or so and this issue would go away

dscmn
May 28 2011, 12:59 AM
In multi card divisions, I think it would add something to have an award of some sort for whomever wins the card in the final round. I mean, usually the cards in the final round have players of very similar skill level. So I magine it would make playing the bottom card, for example, a lot more interesting if the winner of the card gets an award of some kind, like a small amount of merch, or a collectable and displayable trophy that can be worn on a chain or rope with similar trophies, like a medal, bead, bag tag, or something like that. Alternatively or additionally, each card could have a skins match in the final round. Even if each skin is only worth $1 in merch, it's something to help make it more interesting. I'd be interested to hear other people's impressions.

i've enjoyed this as a tournament feature in the past. obviously though, i've never actually experienced this entertaining feature from the aforementioned "bottom card." What exactly is that by the way? Anyway.

My question to you is: how exactly does this benefit the disc manufacturers and tournament directors? Are you going to collect $15 from every player before the final round and then distribute the $5 disc at the end? Or is it included in the entry fee when you pay an additional $5-$10 for the privilege of signing up? I'm confused.

JenniferB
May 30 2011, 01:15 AM
i've enjoyed this as a tournament feature in the past. obviously though, i've never actually experienced this entertaining feature from the aforementioned "bottom card." What exactly is that by the way? Anyway.

My question to you is: how exactly does this benefit the disc manufacturers and tournament directors? Are you going to collect $15 from every player before the final round and then distribute the $5 disc at the end? Or is it included in the entry fee when you pay an additional $5-$10 for the privilege of signing up? I'm confused.

How does having a t-shirt for ctp on each card in each round do it? I just think it would be more fun to compete for that prize by trying to win the card for the round, rather then blowing it all on one drive.

bruce_brakel
May 31 2011, 11:40 AM
When the IOS does FlightLife, it is built into the entry fee. IOS payouts exceed PDGA minimums and lots of CTPs or FlightLife is another feature of IOS tournaments that adds value to the amateurs.

According to the owners I've spoken to, and their in-house salespeople, the merch system does not really benefit the manufacturers. They charge less and do more for tournament directors which constitute a smaller portion of their sales than their sales to retailers. So, FlightLife would be of no benefit to them also. Tournament directors should be grateful that the manufacturers still care about them. 1% of disc golfers play tournaments, and obviously the money is found in the wallets of the other 99%.

FlightLife benefits the TD by making the tournament more fun for the players who are probably not going to finish in the prizes. Those players are more likely to play that TD's tournaments in the future. That is what those players used to tell Jon and I.

FlightLife is a fun side game and easier to administer than CTPs. I have not seen it at too many tournaments other than IOS tournaments and MDGOs from the distant past.

ishkatbible
May 31 2011, 02:17 PM
what is FlightLife?

krupicka
May 31 2011, 02:30 PM
FlightLife is a prize that goes to the best score on each card during a given round (or in the case of some mixed division cards...most improved). This is payed out instead of divisional CTPs that we usually run. This is most often done when the weather is lousy and the likelihood is low that the CTP flags come in and are legible.

bruce_brakel
May 31 2011, 03:30 PM
what is FlightLife?It is what JenniferB has been talking about.

johnbiscoe
Jun 01 2011, 09:02 AM
we used to do the "win your card, win a prize" deal here in VA years ago...works out well other than when you have a mixed card of highly varied skill levels...

JenniferB
Jun 01 2011, 11:38 PM
we used to do the "win your card, win a prize" deal here in VA years ago...works out well other than when you have a mixed card of highly varied skill levels...

That mixed card you mention would probably be the norm in women's divisions. It's extremely rare in my experience to have a full card, much less more than one card, in women's divisions. So it wouldn't work as well there.

However, if it were offered in rec division, then I might be motivated to play a tournament that has no other ladies playing. I mean, I could still sign up for rec, and even assuming I wind up on the bottom card, I could make it my goal to try and win the card. At least there would be that possibility.

jackinkc
Jun 29 2011, 11:50 AM
Player A 56-55-58=169
Player B 55-56-58=169
Player C 54-57-58=169

The players should be listed in THIS order (contrary to what Kansas City Course Directors in 2009 Worlds believe) as HOT round ALWAYS is the first tiebreaker and in the second round shown above A beat B who beat C.

I do it that way, as does Chapman, once again Keith thanks for your loving support of disc golf in KC. Hugs and kisses! Sorry that KC disappointed you yet again in one way or another...... 8-p

As for the payout issues, Patrick you speak as a Pro, not as an am in all of your comments. If you are concerned with winning x amount of prizes, you are thinking as a pro. 3 yrs in our sport at this point doesn't make you a great knowledge source, many of the posters in here have discs that I would guess are older than you.

It doesn't mean that your items lack target though, this is why in KC I went with the Trophy only option for the A-Tier for Am's, kept it at $50 and said go with it. It took the measurement out of the am payout, which was great. Next year I am planning the same.

I also hear you on the availability to watch the top in the game, and prevent the hour long wait. I felt that based on this issue our goal of having the tee times on Sunday for the Pro's and the early round for the am's gives everyone a chance to win. Am's started at 8, pro tee times at 9:30, the final group teed off ~ 12:30, which gave all ams a chance to watch most of the final holes of the last 4-5 groups, being able to see everyone that they may admire in our sport.

I am not a big fan of final 9's. I think that the safari holes are fun for group playing, but not to decide a winner personally. I know many people that think counter to that, and we will discuss it, but I think that you win an event, you win an event. Now then the final 9 skins with the random pick from raffles....after hitting a $500 putt may be something that I think about in the future, but that wouldn't decide the event in my mind.

Final 9's are unique to disc golf, its no where else, so I guess its kinda cool, but why put a new hole in where a person hasn't had a chance to play it to try to develop a winner based on that score on a "temp hole" from what is normally going to be a good golf shot?

As for paying out our am's deep......I wish we had sponsors to not worry about this, but we are only playing for our own money at our events 99% of the time. Until we get people to realize their own potential and get more sponsor money involved, I don't think that we have an answer.

Patrick P
Jun 29 2011, 03:36 PM
As for paying out our am's deep......I wish we had sponsors to not worry about this, but we are only playing for our own money at our events 99% of the time. Until we get people to realize their own potential and get more sponsor money involved, I don't think that we have an answer. I would agree sponsorship is the answer to enrich payouts. I would like to see PRO purses greatly increase and I think that will attract more players to move up to OPEN.

I'm not a big fan for paying AM's deep, it diminishes the whole purpose of competitive play and having player's strive to be better and move up. To me, it's a form of socialism, a handout. Why work and practice hard knowing that if you just finish in the top 50% of an A-tier, your going to get some shwag. You work hard, practice, and come ready to compete, then your efforts will be rewarded, rather than be rewarded for sub-par play.

It doesn't mean that your items lack target though, this is why in KC I went with the Trophy only option for the A-Tier for Am's, kept it at $50 and said go with it. It took the measurement out of the am payout, which was great. Next year I am planning the same.
I would be in favor of having just a custom player's pack and trophy only for AM payouts.

keithjohnson
Jun 30 2011, 01:49 AM
I do it that way, as does Chapman, once again Keith thanks for your loving support of disc golf in KC. Hugs and kisses! Sorry that KC disappointed you yet again in one way or another...... 8-p


Contrary to your beliefs - I LOVE KC and the courses as well as the BBQ there.

Unfortunately YOU AND CHAPMAN were NOT doing the boards for the Pro Masters courses - because at 2 different times at 2 different courses with 2 different course directors, I was told that they were informed by STAFF above them (I assumed that would be the TD, but then again it could have been the trophy maker :) ) that the boards were NOT to be set correctly, but were to be left in the half-assed wrong way of total score and then PDGA # for ties no matter the hot round.
If you would like the names of the course directors, I would be EXTREMELY happy to let you know their names, so you don't again incorrectly guess that I hate KC and the courses. I even talked to both Gentry (tour director at the time) and LaGrassa (scoring director at the time) at the host hotel after both days that this happened and both assured me it shouldn't happen that way.

In reality I don't blame you personally for any of the things that happened or went wrong during the actual Event. You had no control over the weather the first day, had no control over the killer rocks in the stream at Thornfield that caused my nose to be impaled in the first round, or the scheduling that kept the PRO Masters from playing the most picturesque course in KC (although my daughter got to play it :) ) and that most Masters I spoke to would have much rather played than Thornfield.

Now from the Awards ceremony on - that's another already taken care of thing - that worked out well in the end - leaving EVERYONE in the Johnson household happy and thrilled.

I am glad to see you on the ballot again and I wish you well this year - which at least since you don't have to go up against 2 travelling pros this time, should increase your chances on being elected.

jackinkc
Jun 30 2011, 11:08 AM
Ok, so what may have happened at the course is that they wanted to keep it as close as possible to the online update scoring then, is my only guess.

I was only razzing ya a little! 8-) That trophy life after the event took a life of its own though didn't it now!

jackinkc
Jun 30 2011, 11:10 AM
I would be in favor of having just a custom player's pack and trophy only for AM payouts.

I likey this thinking, generally have! I think it makes it easier on everyone involved, then as Am's you can spend more money at the vendors on site to make it happen better!

keithjohnson
Jun 30 2011, 12:04 PM
Ok, so what may have happened at the course is that they wanted to keep it as close as possible to the online update scoring then, is my only guess.

I was only razzing ya a little! 8-) That trophy life after the event took a life of its own though didn't it now!

BZZZTTTTT!! Wrong answer - the online scoring was correct as it does get sorted by hot last round as it should always be.

Just giving you a hard time back - It was almost 2 years ago and the only Worlds it has happened at out of the 13 I've played in - so it's not really something easily forgotten - when you should be 4 cards higher up playing with people that shot hot rounds like you did, versus 4 cards down with people who just threw horrible rounds to drop DOWN to your total score. It affected 10-12 players at 1 course and 7 on the other, so it was not just me that would have, should have been on different cards and I wasn't the only one that complained (just the loudest one). Card mentalities are hella different for everyone - I know as I've been on both sides when scores are done correctly - and for me personally - my game SEEMS to go better when I'm playing above my rating with players who are also shooting hot, versus playing with higher rated players whose last rounds stunk and they aren't happy about it.

keithjohnson
Jun 30 2011, 12:07 PM
I likey this thinking, generally have! I think it makes it easier on everyone involved, then as Am's you can spend more money at the vendors on site to make it happen better!

I would be in favor of having just a custom player's pack and trophy only for AM payouts.


That's the way the Memorial has done it for the last 2 years and they sell out months in advance - it definately works for them.

jackinkc
Jun 30 2011, 01:25 PM
ok....sorry about that, its the first that I heard of it. I am guessing that it wasn't a "regular" of the local scene, and unfortunately when you are using 11 courses, our staff levels don't support having all home grown talent.....The Memorial is also early enough to warrant the need to play warm weather golf! That doesn't hurt their numbers for certain!

bravo
Jul 19 2011, 07:55 PM
has any body out there allowed advanced players to enter the pro leval and allowed them to compete with the pros for an opportunity to cash with plastic?
i see this as a way to move the top players from each division up and grow the newby participation in the lower fields.

cgkdisc
Jul 19 2011, 09:03 PM
has any body out there allowed advanced players to enter the pro leval and allowed them to compete with the pros for an opportunity to cash with plastic?

Not sure what you mean by "allowed" because it's been standard PDGA policy for a few years now.

krupicka
Jul 19 2011, 09:04 PM
We have done that for a couple of years. With the way we split the divisions between Saturday and Sunday it allows players to play on the day opposite from when their usual division is scheduled.

AWSmith
Jul 19 2011, 09:55 PM
We have done that for a couple of years. With the way we split the divisions between Saturday and Sunday it allows players to play on the day opposite from when their usual division is scheduled.

a good example of one of the things you guys did right in bringing a gradual end to bagging. once people figure out they can cash in the division above they move up. there are those who continue to bag but thats ok.