Patrick P
Apr 08 2011, 02:26 PM
I know that you are allowed to remove objects in your stance behind your lie, for instance, branches, pebbles, twigs, loose dirt, leaves, etc. This is beneficial to a player so that they can have a good balanced stance. I can't find it in the current rulebook but I know you can now remove objects that also extend from behind to in front of your lie.

Are you allowed to removed these objects that are completely in front of your lie? For example, your going to do a jump putt and there happens to be this one large rock (3-4" diameter) a foot or so right where you follow through. Is there any rule that prohibits removal of this rock?

cgkdisc
Apr 08 2011, 02:35 PM
Yes. The first sentence of 803.05A.

jconnell
Apr 08 2011, 03:53 PM
803.05 Obstacles and Relief

A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described in 803.05 B, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course.
Thank goodness this much of that rule didn't change. They might as well delete the whole rule from the book if they did.

wsfaplau
Apr 11 2011, 08:38 PM
Are you allowed to removed these objects that are completely in front of your lie? For example, your going to do a jump putt and there happens to be this one large rock (3-4" diameter) a foot or so right where you follow through. Is there any rule that prohibits removal of this rock?

This is unclear. Patrick asked 2 questions. Can you remove the rock? and Are you prohibited from removing it.

Chuck's answer of YES answers one of the questions. But which one? Yes you can remove it or yes a rule prohibits it.

To be clear, No you cannot remove the rock in front of your lie. Yes, a rule prohibits it.

krazyeye
Apr 12 2011, 11:44 PM
nits to pick

Patrick P
Apr 14 2011, 08:03 PM
@ wsfaplau, at first I thought the same thing, but then I read the rule Chuck cited and it was clear.

(803.05 Obstacles and Relief:A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described in 803.05B, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course.)

So basically I can remove obstacles, (pebbles, stones, leaves, dirt, branches, etc.) that are behind my lie as well as such objects that extend from behind my lie to in front of my lie such a as stick or big rock. However, if a rock or such object is completely in front of my lie, then I can't move it.

I was thinking if you had a large boulder in front of your lie where you were going to attempt a jump putt and then the rock would interfer with your landing, if you were able to move it, but that's not the case, only if it were behind my lie.

So reading 803.05B leads me to my next question. Are you automatically allowed casual relief from poison ivy/oak or does the TD have to first announce it? What if the TD fails to announce it, does that mean no relief?

cgkdisc
Apr 14 2011, 08:40 PM
The RC has been consistent in this casual rule since the beginning in 1982 that no relief is granted from poison or prickly plants unless the TD defines it as so.

Patrick P
Apr 14 2011, 08:51 PM
Ah, so it's probably best to ask at the player's meeting. I can't imagine a TD saying no casual relief from poison ivy, but the scorns of looks would be the case if the TD said no. As far as thorny bushes or cactus, hmm, I guess don't throw your disc there?

cgkdisc
Apr 14 2011, 09:36 PM
I don't think you would find too many TDs agreeing that poison plants deserve relief. At least that's my experience in 22 years. It's too dicey to identify and even if sprigs can be identified, it's rarely a contiguous area like casual water with boundaries. And how much relief do you get from poison vines? That's too easy to pull a fast one just to get farther away from a tree trunk. Players always have the choice to take the Optional Rethrow or Optional Relief penalty. It may not be "fair" that some are allergic and some aren't. But then again it's also not "fair" that I'm 5'9" instead of 6'7".

Patrick P
Apr 15 2011, 02:41 AM
Ok your just being silly or had to many sips out of the wine bottle. I've played in two events where there was poision ivy/oak on the course and the TD announced casual relief, so I guess since 2007 I'm batting a 1.000.

cgkdisc
Apr 15 2011, 09:02 AM
That's allowing a loophole too easy to be abused unless each PI area was specifically marked with paint or flags.

krupicka
Apr 15 2011, 09:48 AM
I've always granted relief from poison ivy at tournaments I run. I haven't heard of any complaints that it has been abused by players. We don't all have the constitution of those Norwegian bachelor farmers you have up in that neck of the woods.

cgkdisc
Apr 15 2011, 10:07 AM
It's a slippery slope. A case could be made that allowing relief from pricker bushes is more appropriate than PI since they affect every player the same way versus something to which only some are allergic. But I haven't seen blanket relief granted from pricker bushes/trees. I have seen it from cacti which makes a little more sense since they are easy identified objects.

pterodactyl
Apr 15 2011, 12:54 PM
In Santa Cruz the call has always been "no relief" from poison oak. I'm batting .000 on that one.