I recently purchased a spot to play at the O'hauser Spring Opening in Menasha WI. It was $45 registering as an intermediate level player in that tournament. Right away this morning I was cautious because the weather was so poor. My friend Pete and I packed as much water-proof gear as possible, extra socks and clothes and headed up to Menasha, about 1 hour 15 minute drive. The weather was probably the worst I've ever played in. There was a mix of sleet, freezing rain, pouring rain, high winds, thunderstorms, more freezing rain and another dose of pouring rain. My "rain-proof" gear proved useless against this onslaught as did everyones else's. I would have rather been playing in a blizzard as at least then I could have stayed dry. In fact I played Blue Ribbon Pines in Bethel MN earlier this winter in -33 degree weather and had a better experience. By the time we had gotten through the first 9 holes one player from our card dropped out b/c he couldn't feel his hands anymore. Later I learned that multiple other cards had had players drop out before the first round finished. When all the players met up after the first round at the designated area spirits were low and many players were looking to drop out. My friend and I left after telling the TD that we weren't willing to risk our health to go back and play another round. Many many other players also called it quits.

I hope that you can see that I'm not just complaining to complain but that conditions today were seriously dangerous to play in. In my opinion the TD should have suspended play and the rounds should have been postponed to a later date. According to the Competition Manuel section 1.7 letter H. (1) All players must complete a minimum of 18 holes for the event to be considered official. That did not happen today. Also in section 1.7 letter H. (3) If these Criteria are not met, all efforts will be made to reschedule the event. If rescheduling is impossible, a FULL REFUND will be issued minus player's package, PDGA and other associated event fees.

I would like to get a refund or see this event rescheduled. I love the sport of disc golf, that's why I woke up at 6 am on a weekend to play in a tournament. What I saw out there today wasn't even disc golf, it was more like survivor man! I just don't see how it can be fair to charge people for a tournament that is both dangerous and un-official according to the PDGA competition manual. Am I misunderstanding things in the Competition Manuel or am I correct in my line of thinking?

Please share your thoughts.

The TD Scott Reek will likely be discussing this with Gentry at PDGA HQ tomorrow to see what can be done. If there wasn't any lightning then tournaments continue. If there was lightning, then the event should have been stopped until the lightning cleared so event could continue or be canceled. You left so are you sure that no one completed 18 holes?

I am unsure of what the end results were today, however I wouldn't be surprised at all if around half of the players dropped out before the end of the tournament. Perhaps it is being discussed right now, I don't know. I guess part of my question becomes this.

in the competition manual it states in section 1.7 A. that if "In the opinion of the director, excessive rain or hazardous conditions exist that make it impractical or dangerous to continue to play, the tournament shall be suspended"

So what qualifies as excessive, and what qualifies as hazardous? I have heard several people mention lightning now, which obviously makes sense for an extremely hazardous condition. But what about excessive rain? Not to mention excessive rain at freezing temperatures mixed with a cold wind? Also if the rule states that this duty comes down to the "opinion of the director" wouldn't the director have to be playing himself to understand what the players are going through? Excessive rain on a warm July day is one thing, but when you're dealing with freezing temperatures and the well being of 80-90 disc golfers shouldn't there be some rule to protect players from having to play in those dangerous conditions?

We'll have to wait and see what happens. No scores have been posted yet so it's unlcear if they had any completed rounds or not.

In my experience most players want the "show to go on", regardless of rain or cold. They enjoy complaining about it, but few ever want to quit. (When I started playing tournaments I thought this notion was crazy. Now I've joined the crazy, more or less).

Lightning is a different issue, of course. But it usually allows a delay and resuming the round on the same day.

One problem is that it's almost impossible to reschedule a tournament. The course or TD may not be available, or the calendar is full, or many players playing this weekend can't return on whatever weekend is decided. Unlike pro golfers, few disc golfers (or TDs) can stay over until Monday. So you're stuck with canceling (unpopular) or continuing on, and letting those who want to withdraw, withdraw.

I have played in sub-zero temps and in gale force winds, but not at the same time. I've seen porta-potties blown over, sliding across the parking lot and crashing into cars. Welcome to Ludington disc golf!

On October 6, 2002, the winds of November came early and the entire field was about to quit the tournament I was running. I talked them into finishing the morning round and then we had a long lunch at Mancinos until the weather let up a bit.

As a player, you have to take care of yourself. If your bad weather gear is failing and you're getting hypothermia, you have to get off the course and get warmed up. As a TD it is a tough call unless there is lightning, lava or radioactive fallout.

Gentry is looking into what happened.

I've seen rounds called off due to rain with no lightning, but the event itself wasn't canceled. The amount of rain coming down in the morning along with already high water creeks ended up flooding several fairways and covering baskets by the afternoon round. The only event I ever bailed on in the 4th round was at Lexington when the Riney B course was flooded in the way mentioned above. I'd had enough after 5 holes but many still finished the round even though the OB boundaries had disappeared on several holes and one hole had to be skipped completely turning it into a 17-hole round.

In my experience most players want the "show to go on", regardless of rain or cold. They enjoy complaining about it, but few ever want to quit. (When I started playing tournaments I thought this notion was crazy. Now I've joined the crazy, more or less).

I absolutely agree with you. I love the icebowl moto "No wimps, no whiners". Like I mentioned earlier when the snow storm that collapsed the metradome hit the twin cities and almost everyting shut down my friend and I went to play BRP, despite the conditions, and we had a blast. Last year I had several friends playing in the Mad city open when that thunderstorm hit and they still played. Aside from DG I have had numerous run-ins with bad weather and been able to push through. I am an outdoors-man have climbed 14,000 ft mountains, sometimes in sketchy weather. I love telling the stories of "how I survived" and laying out the details of a climb "gone wrong". However, I also know when to take shelter, and when to turn back. I know what dangerous weather looks like, and Sunday was a perfect example of the type of weather that could easily cause hypothermia. As I mentioned spirits were very low among all the golfers and I believe if it had been put to a vote 75% or more of the field would have quit right then and there.

Shouldn't there be some way to "poll" the field of players in dangerous conditions? At the end of the day it's the players that are taking the risk, not the TD. They already have everyone's money and know what a pain it would be to reschedule. The incentive is all backwards in this case.

No matter what happens in this case, I believe that what happened on Sunday should be reviewed as an example of possibly needing to add or modify some of the rules in the Competition Manual.

I love disc golf and will continue to play as long as I can walk, but part of bettering this sport is asking questions that will push this sport forward.

I'm glad to hear that Gentry is looking into this. I'm interested in seeing what will be decided.

Shouldn't there be some way to "poll" the field of players in dangerous conditions? At the end of the day it's the players that are taking the risk, not the TD. They already have everyone's money and know what a pain it would be to reschedule. The incentive is all backwards in this case.



Around here, in almost all events, TDs are playing, so their skin is on the line as well. I play in about half the events I TD, myself.

Players have the option of withdrawing, of course. It means forfeiting the entry fee. I did that once, with no regrets (low 30s, 20 MPH winds, & rain).

A TD who cancels or reschedules is going to catch a LOT of grief. Cutting an event short, once its official, won't be quite so bad. But it's a difficult situation.

That said, I wanted to strangle a TD---whom I was grouped with---who drug us through about an hour of lightning, then sounded the horn to halt while I had one putt remaining in my second round. At that point, I would have preferred to putt out rather than come back the next day, putt (well, putt twice as it turned out), then wait an hour for scores to be tallied and the 3rd round to begin.

brutal weather is tuff but in the sport of disc golf ive had worse rounds in good weather.
the men will seperate from the boys and those left standing will win.
granted some rain mixed with sleet and sub freezing weather would suck.
i remember a tourney in ok city when there was so much rain i just carried a couple of disc and played layup/layup/layup/putt because the option of throwing all out just couldnt happen.part of the course was steep and raind soaked heck i just turned over a few disc and slid down the hills, i was already muddy and couldnt get any wetter.

The Wisconsin disc golf schedule is packed. Rescheduling would be a nightmare:

http://www.widiscsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011WITourSchedule.pdf

And that is just the Wisconsin events. I believe the TD also participates in events outside of the state.

It's been interesting as our schedule continues to spread further from 'spring through fall'. Standing Rocks used to be the first Wisconsin tour stop of the year in late April/early May, and I remember playing that in snow, rain, wind and other miserable conditions. I'm afraid that if you sign up for or run March/April or November tournaments, you run the risk of very foul weather. A windy 35 degree rainy day is worse than 15 degrees and snow.

So, sorry about the weather, but we all know that March in Wisconsin can have nasty days. Once you've committed to a tournament during these months, I'm afraid the only option might be either drop out or 'suck it up, Buttercup'. I don't see a reschedule being feasible, especially in the spring when the calendar gets so full.

the men will seperate from the boys and those left standing will win.


I feel like this thread is slowly drifting towards "What's the worst weather you've played in" or "How macho are you when it comes to playing in bad weather". This would definitely be a fun thread, but the question that I'm raising is this...

Do the current rules in the Competition Manual provide enough protection for players in dangerous weather conditions. Everyone seems to agree that playing in lightning is a "no no" but that isn't even specifically noted in the manual and as mentioned before by davidsauls is not always used as rule. What about severe weather warnings, tornado warnings, flooding etc. Or in the case of this event, hypothermia causing conditions. The University of Princeton states on it's website that one major weather condition that causes hypothermia is 40 degree weather with wind and rain. It also states that one of the major reasons people get hypothermia is because they have no knowledge of it. So are we really doing any favors to our sport be taking on this "Let's separate the men from the boys mentality"?

Another whole spin on this would be to look at the effect that playing a tournament during excessive rain has on a course and erosion. One of the players I talked at the tournament said "This is just plain bad for the course. It's going to take months to recover from this abuse". I think he has a valid point as well. Many high traffic courses pull their baskets during muddy months to avoid erosion which makes perfect sense to me. Why then wouldn't you want to protect a course during excessive rain? I have always understood Disc Golf to be a very environmentally friendly and responsible sport, tearing up a course for a one or two day tournament does not seem like a very responsible thing to do.

So my two questions remain.

1. Do the current rules in the Competition Manual provide enough protection for players in "Excessive rain and dangerous weather conditions".

2. Do the current rules in the Competition Manual provide enough protection for the course and surrounding environment during "Excessive rain and dangerous weather conditions".

The quoted portion is exact wording from the competition manual. Let's please refrain from any more "worst round" stories and talk about the rules, and if the current rules suffice. Disc golf is an evolving sport, lets be apart of helping it mature.

I think it's too subjective in the case of weather involving precipitation or temperature. Lightning is an easy call. Weather that results in the alert sirens going off (tornado warnings and the like) is an easy call. Local flooding conditions are an easy call. 35 degrees and rain is not. To try and write guidelines into the competition manual for such would be very difficult. And what is safe for some (the well equipped) is not for others (the poorly dressed and so on). You can't expect an organization to cover every individual's common sense in knowing what their limits are.

As for the damage to the course and all the other arguments, that is something that has to be considered when scheduling or participating in a March event in Wisconsin. Its not an issue of the weather that day nor an issue for an organization to override the common sense of the local club/participants involved. Sorry.

The PDGA doesn't mandate when the baskets get pulled or put back in either. It can't oversee all nor provide what you seem to be searching for here. It can't fix the fact that you had a miserable experience.

So my two questions remain.

1. Do the current rules in the Competition Manual provide enough protection for players in "Excessive rain and dangerous weather conditions".

2. Do the current rules in the Competition Manual provide enough protection for the course and surrounding environment during "Excessive rain and dangerous weather conditions".

The quoted portion is exact wording from the competition manual. Let's please refrain from any more "worst round" stories and talk about the rules, and if the current rules suffice. Disc golf is an evolving sport, lets be apart of helping it mature.

I would say no, they don't, because the applicable rule requires the use of discretion. That being said, I don't think this rule could be written any better. Ultimately, there has to be a decision made by a single person in charge and that person's discretionary values are what will be used to make the decision. If a player feels that it is too dangerous to play, and the tournament goes on, then the player has to make a decision that best suits them. Personally, I would never rely upon a TD to make the best decision regarding my safety.

Your efforts towards helping disc golf mature are admirable, but be prepared for a long haul. The demographics of disc golf are such that mature people are in the minority.

I would say no, they don't, because the applicable rule requires the use of discretion. That being said, I don't think this rule could be written any better. Ultimately, there has to be a decision made by a single person in charge and that person's discretionary values are what will be used to make the decision.

Thank you August for addressing the rules, I feel like this is thread is moving in the right direction.

So here is the problem as I see it currently. All the decision making weight is left on one mans shoulders... the TD. He has to use his discretion as to what merits "Excessive rain and dangerous conditions". Frankly, that doesn't seem fair to anyone. On on hand, if I'm a player, I don't want someone else making a call that involves my safety. On the other hand, if I'm the TD, I don't want the weight of a judgement call that affects so many people placed on my shoulders.

Wouldn't it be better to be more specific in the rules to take weight off of the TD and also give the players the right to protest a round that is unsafe?

For example, everyone seems to agree lightning, flooding, tornado etc. are a reason to postpone. Why not write that into the competition manual? Make it extremely clear so there can be no argument. That's what any other professional sport would and in fact does do. Doing this would take the stress off of a TD as well as protect players from irresponsible TD's.

If I have to chose between my safety and finishing a tournament obviously I will put my safety first. But should it really come down to that? Is that truly the image disc golf wants to put out to the public? If so, is that really a very professional image?

I think the Competition Manual section 1.7 is fine the way it is. I don't think everything needs to be spelled out line-by-line, scenario-by-scenario. The rule allows the TD discretion in making a judgment call, and many rule calls are in fact based on judgment.

Hazardous Conditions: tornados, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, lightning, hail the size of softballs, volcano eruptions, meteorite storms, nuclear plant meltdowns.

Excessive Rain: Rain to the point of severe flooding.

If you live in Wisconsin and are playing in March, then I would expect you to be able to counter the natural elements: a cold and very rainy day. Suit up, where layers of clothing, rain gear, head gear, gloves, (yes that's right, you're allowed to wear gloves). So excuse me if I am calling the kettle black here, but I think you're putting too much effort into your argument when it really was your inability to prepare for the extreme weather conditions that day.

I would advise if your hands are getting cold and wet in fear of frostbite, wear layers of waterproof gloves with heat packs inside of them, tape around the edges and wear several layers of rainproof clothing, a facemask, goggles, etc. Tough it out, you know what to expect out in Wisconsin during this time of the year.

I'd like to see the definition of "excessive cold" and "excessive heat". Some might say -50 degrees is dangerous; here in South Carolina, I'd say anything below 20. On the other hand, I've played through some brutal heat....the kind that causes heat warnings to be issued in more northern states.

Defining hazardous lightning is harder. A flash in the sky, too far away to be heard? 10 miles away? (I'll guarantee that if you put that to a vote, almost everyone on the course would keep playing).

Flooding? In the fairways? Near the fairways? 3" deep? 6' deep?

I'm in favor of leaving it in one person's judgement. Surely he or she will be getting input from others. If the TD wants to continue and I don't feel safe, I'm willing to quit with no hard feelings.

I agree with Patrick P. Seems to me all you want here is a way to duck out of a tournament and not have to argue/complain/fight to get your entry fee back. Even with all the specifics in the world in the competition manual, there's no guarantee that you won't encounter a situation that isn't covered in the book and will still fear for your safety and want out. Do we want something so detailed and specific that the TD has to invest in specialized weather equipment to keep constant watch on wind conditions or measure precipitation in order to suspend play in exact accordance with the rules? Or can't we just rely on the TD to make a fair judgment even if it doesn't necessarily meet with unanimous approval?

The comparison to other sports doesn't hold water because pretty much all of them to my knowledge leave the decision at the discretion of the people on the scene, not specific criteria in a rule book. In baseball, for example, the decision to delay/postpone a game rests with the home team until the game begins. After play starts, it's at the discretion of the umpires to pull the players off the field. I've seen plenty of games continue in downpours that were pretty clearly making the players uncomfortable. But the ump said play on, so they did.

My friend Pete and I packed as much water-proof gear as possible, extra socks and clothes and headed up to Menasha, about 1 hour 15 minute drive. The weather was probably the worst I've ever played in. There was a mix of sleet, freezing rain, pouring rain, high winds, thunderstorms, more freezing rain and another dose of pouring rain. My "rain-proof" gear proved useless against this onslaught as did everyone's.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. You missed some of the facts, I was in fact prepared, with full rain-gear and a fresh set of clothes to change into for the second round, but that is beside the point.

If you look you'll see that there was flooding on some of the holes as the creek ran past capacity, there also may have been lightning. The whole matter is currently being discussed at PDGA HQ, and no scores have been posted yet (this is 2 days later now).

Sorry, but I have to disagree. You missed some of the facts, I was in fact prepared, with full rain-gear and a fresh set of clothes to change into for the second round, but that is beside the point.

If you look you'll see that there was flooding on some of the holes as the creek ran past capacity, there also may have been lightning. The whole matter is currently being discussed at PDGA HQ, and no scores have been posted yet (this is 2 days later now). To argue for arguments sake, if you got cold and wet wearing only extra clothes and rain gear, then you were not fully prepared. Did you wear a drysuit, probably not. Did you wear waiters, probably not. Did you wear goggles, a head and face mask, and gloves to cover your frostbitten fingers, probably not. I’ve fished in Alaskan rivers up to my chest and did not get wet. I’ve swam in 48 degree oceans in January and stayed warm and dry. I’ve climbed Alaskan mountains with zero visibility in zero degrees with 30mph wind gusts and stayed warm and dry. My point is you were not fully prepared.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. You missed some of the facts, I was in fact prepared, with full rain-gear and a fresh set of clothes to change into for the second round, but that is beside the point.

If you look you'll see that there was flooding on some of the holes as the creek ran past capacity, there also may have been lightning. The whole matter is currently being discussed at PDGA HQ, and no scores have been posted yet (this is 2 days later now).

First, I've seen a couple of months go by for some tournaments before they post their scores on the PDGA website, so that has absolutely no bearing on any decisions by the PDGA.

Second, if there was lightning in the area (5 miles or closer) you would have known it. Take it from someone who inadvertently played in a lightning storm, a thunderbolt even 5 miles away is very loud.

Now with all that being said, it is up to you to know what the weather is going to be on the day of the tournament. Obviously you knew it was going to be a rainy day and that you were probably going to get really wet, despite the rain gear you brought along ( thus the need to bring extra clothing). You also should have been aware of the temperature that you were going to be playing in. Knowing all of that, you could have asked the TD for your registration back and went home. However, you didn't and you should at that point take responsibility for you decision.

davidsauls is right in that what is excessive to one may be just another day to another. In the end it is up to each of us to know what extremes we are comfortable playing in and to not play if we feel it's dangerous.

To argue for arguments sake, if you got cold and wet wearing only extra clothes and rain gear, then you were not fully prepared. Did you wear a drysuit, probably not. Did you wear waiters, probably not. Did you wear goggles, a head and face mask, and gloves to cover your frostbitten fingers, probably not. I�ve fished in Alaskan rivers up to my chest and did not get wet. I�ve swam in 48 degree oceans in January and stayed warm and dry. I�ve climbed Alaskan mountains with zero visibility in zero degrees with 30mph wind gusts and stayed warm and dry. My point is you were not fully prepared.

Oh, so you're an outdoors man as well. That's awesome. I also enjoy mountain climbing, back packing, white water rafting etc. Next time I'll be sure to come ready for all those things, and maybe just leave the discs at home since that seems to be the least important part of my survival checklist. :)

The truth is I agree with a lot of what you're saying, you can't have a rulebook that is so specific that it covers every possibility. Weather related issues will always be a problem with outdoor sports, that's just the nature of our game. Once again, I agree with these things.

I don't quite understand the amount of attitude coming from some of these posts. I'm tired of trying to discuss this with people who, self admittedly, only want to argue. I have no ill feelings towards anyone and hope that I have not offended anyone. I think sometimes things get misunderstood when we are just dealing with text instead of face to face conversation.

I wish that the TD at this tournament had been playing along side the rest of us out there. From the players meeting he seemed like a genuine and fair guy, and I think if he had been playing and seen things first hand a lot of this wouldn't even need to be discussed because play would have likely been suspended.

I don't feel that I have been unfair in any of the questions that I have raised. I still think there are some loopholes and flaws in the competition manual/rulebook, and obviously so does the PDGA because they continue to make changes and additions every year.

I believe that asking questions is key to a refining process. I want to see disc golf grow and mature. Maybe that involves some of the questions I raised in this thread, maybe not. Either way, I'm glad this has all happened because its helped me get very familiar with the competition manual, which I'm sure will be very helpful in the long run.

I'm still very interested in seeing how this all unfolds with Gentry. Maybe Chuck will be able to enlighten us all sometime soon.

Sorry if the replies come back a bit pointed sometimes. Hard to convey in text and hard to see what the person you are sending to might be feeling.

It looks like the TD played on Saturday, so it wouldn't be unusual for him not to throw on the 'Am Sunday'. Fairly common actually. As for cancelling, you have to keep in mind that all of the expenses had been paid by the TD with things being converted to cover expenses, provide merch for payout and so on. The cash the Sunday players put in probably wasn't available anymore even if the event was cancelled.

It also sounds like you played in the tournament. I would say your one shot at backing out and getting a refund would have been before things started. Perhaps the TD would have accomodated you , perhaps not. But once things started, he was committed to providing the rewards and payouts for those who did stick it out. Allowing cancellations after things get well underway would be an unreasonable burden on the person running the tournament. Even if things were cut short, I would assume the tournament complete and services delivered in full by the TD, no refunds expected.

Nate, I was just busting your chops, please don't take it personal. I hear what your saying and it's a tough call to figure out where to draw the line. Each circumstance will be unique and that's why I believe the Competition Manual leaves it up to the TD to make a judgment call rather than a definitive measure laid out in black and white.

One of the reasons I moved to San Diego is so I don't have to deal with harsh weather experienced in Alaska (the cold) and Arizona (the heat). From my own experience playing disc golf in the rain, it really isn't pleasurable, mostly miserable, and trying to stay warm and dry is a constant challenge. It get's to the point you start asking yourself, is this really worth it?

I'm looking at it from the TD perspective, it's very difficult to cancel or reschedule, and if it can still continue on then I'm going to lead to the latter. Certainly if rain is to be expected the TD should be prepared to have players dropout at the last minute and some effort should be made to a refund or such.

In any past sport event I've played, the only time a game was called was due to lightning. So unless there was this type of activity, I would press on and do my best to dish it out. Sometimes those rounds can be rewarding knowing that you stuck with it and didn't let mother nature hold you back.

Sorry you were not as prepared as you thought and sorry you did not enjoy playing in the miserable weather conditions.

The consensus of the experienced TD's and players posting here is that the current PDGA rules and guidelines regarding hazardous conditions are appropriate and do not need revision. I believe this does represent the opinion of many experienced players and TD's.

Thanks for taking the time to bring this issue to the message board for discussion. This is exactly why we have this forum. While this DISCussion may not have produced the results you wanted, it should continue to be informative to others.

Going forward, now that you know TD's are not likely to cancel events due to excessive rain and/or cold, you should be better prepared in the future. Sometimes the only way to truly comprehend the rules and competition guidelines is through firsthand experience - good or bad.

Nate, thanks for the excellent discourse on the subject. Don't get discouraged by the limited thoughts of the keyboard supermen telling you to ignore dangerous conditions and play on!

If there was lightning, play should have been immediately suspended. If there was flooding enough so that discs that should be at rest on a green are instead floating away, the tournament should have been suspended.

I was also at this tournament that Nate played at and I would have to agree the conditions that we played in were horrid--I wanted to quit after the first 9 holes, but I manned up and finished the first round of 18. However, that is not as important as the fact that the conditions were hazardous to everyone playing no matter how prepared you may have been. But, what I propose is not to add in the rules/competition manual the specifics of what is too hazardous, but rather, to add to let all those participating in the event to vote and as long as 3/4 vote to postpone or cancel the event after the first 18, then that is what should be done.

It's good to finally hear from someone else who was at the tournament as well. I was beginning to wonder if anyone else felt the same way I did. I think that the 3/4 rule would be a good one. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if 3/4 of the field actually quit before the tournament finished. I'm interested in seeing how many "999" rounds come up when the scores finally get posted.
I also finished the first round of 18 (maybe I hadn't mentioned that before). It was interesting when we got to "Holidays", or whatever that bar was called, to meet up between rounds b/c Scott (the TD) seemed genuinely surprised that so many people were quitting (He also was one of the only dry people I saw in the bar aside from the waitresses). This leads me to believe that he had left the course early to start setting up his shop and make other preparations at the bar while we were still playing. My suggestion would be that the TD should be present at all times during a round and if he has to leave then a person should be chosen in his place to make the call on weather related issues.

Also, I'd like to address Mikes insight on the flooding of the fairways. It should be noted that prior to the tournament hole 3 had already been closed down due to flooding and a temporary basket put in another location. By the time my group got to hole 4 we actually ran into an interesting call. That fairway had flooded such that we had this exact dilemma of a floating disc. One of the members of our group threw a shot that landed in "casual" water, but then proceeded to float away! There were several other times we had to deal with "casual" water situations, sometimes to the loss of up to 30 feet from our drives original position!

A few thoughts/questions I'd like to finish with...

1. Does the flooding of fairways to the point of discs floating away meet the criteria for excessive rain?

2. Is it fair for the call to suspend play to be left to a TD if the TD is no longer physically present, or otherwise removed from the weather conditions?

3. If a tournament ends with over half of it's participants dropping out due to weather related concerns can that tournament still be view as valid or is it safe to say that a mistake may have been made? What actions should be taken to "right the wrongs" if this is the case?

IF TRUE, a TD leaving the premises might be a bigger issue.

"Flooding" is still difficult to codify. I recall a tournament where rains created a 200' wide, 2' deep casual lake on one hole. Other holes had considerable standing water. Tournament proceeded, as it should have. Clearly there are levels of flooding that warrant cancelation; hard to see how you make it a rule, though.

Voting by players is impractical. How would you do it? Distant lightning mid-round; gather everyone from far reaches of the course, cast a vote, and return to the holes if that's the decision? You could do it between rounds, but it's hard enough to get everyone to attend and listen at the mandatory players meeting; it would be harder to compel them to gather at one time at lunch to take a vote, especially if they didn't know one to be held.

Particularly, they can't vote to reschedule. Imagine 90 people agreeing to a new date! The logistics are very tough, especially if the TD doesn't want to give up another weekend of his life, or the parks department won't agree to the chosen date.

On the other hand, if 50% withdrew during the tournament, I'd take that as pretty good evidence that the TD made a bad decision. Heck, 25% would make me doubt his judgement.

...........If I came off as argumentative there, or dismissive of your issue, it's not my intent. Just trying to point out the logistical issues in solving this problem.

Ultimately, we leave a lot of decisions in the TD's hands. If he makes bad ones, we'd like to think players wouldn't keep attending his events.

How can we debate the appropriateness of decisions made by the TD without even knowing what decisions were made?

No one has posted what actually happened. We don't know how many people finished the first round. We don't know if the TD suspended play or if the second round took place.



...I would like to get a refund or see this event rescheduled. ...


This seemed to be the main point of your original post. Now that you know a refund or reschedule are not likely (as explained by others) what is it you would like to see happen?

As of yesterday afternoon, the TD had not yet responded to Gentry's email to discuss the event.

Thank you Chuck for the update. What can be expected in this situation? Will there eventually be a solid answer for us?

I'm sorry if I made it seem that my main point was to get my money back. When I wrote the original message I will admit that I was very upset and suffering from a massive headache from being outside in the freezing wet and cold for so long. If you read the rest of my posts after the original one, I think you'll see that may main concerns are as follows.

The players seem to be at the mercy of the TD's discretion. How can we protect players rights from a "bad call". As David said,

"On the other hand, if 50% withdrew during the tournament, I'd take that as pretty good evidence that the TD made a bad decision. Heck, 25% would make me doubt his judgement."

So what happens if a TD has made a bad call? Let's be honest here for a moment. A TD has nothing to lose by a player, or even multiple players dropping out of a round. As stated before, he already has everyones money.

Addressing Discettes question;
How am I supposed to know exactly how many people dropped out? This is another example of the TD holding all the chips. I can tell you what I do know for sure. I know that on my card 1 person dropped out after 9 holes and that I dropped out before the 2nd round. On my friends card 1 person dropped out after 13 holes and he dropped out before the 2nd round. I can also tell you that there was a line of at least 20 people waiting to tell the TD that they were calling it quits. You can tell me that I should have stayed and seen how things panned out, but honestly I was more concerned about getting home and having a hot shower and I think you would have done the same had you been in my shoes.

I can give you some more details on the weather conditions, but it seems that not matter what details I give people continue to tell me that it's impossible to write a rule to cover this problem because ultimately it's a judgement call. I understand this, obviously it's hard cover all scenarios. This still brings me back to my questions.

1. What should be done to right wrongs if a TD has made a "bad call"?
2. Is a 25-50% drop out rate a fair indicator of a "bad call"?

As for what should be done right now. Once again we seem to be at the mercy of the TD who has not responded to Gentry, so what can be done to gather more information? First off I'd like to give the TD a chance to answer for himself and clear this up. However, if no response is received within a week, and no scores have been posted I'd like to see participants from the event contacted by the PDGA and asked to provide a brief description of their round experience, if they finished, and if not, when they dropped out and for what reasons. Once we have more information I think we can address the issue much more professionally and with a lot less speculation.

I just sent this message to the TD because I know that if I were in his shoes I'd like a chance to get the facts out there and have my opinions shared. I'll let you all know if he responds and share any more facts as they come.

Hi Scott,

I'm wondering what the results from the Spring Opener (Int/Rec) were. I was not able to continue into the 2nd round due to the weather and am wondering if the tournament did in fact run it's course, if play was suspended or if the event was canceled. I understand that Gentry has asked to discuss the event with you and am wondering if you can keep me, and the other players informed as to the results of that discussion. Thank you much,

Nate

It would be interesting to find out the details of what happened as others have stated here. I also wonder if it would of been possible to continue the event the following day. Notice in my original post I stated excessive rain equals severe flooding. I think that's probably the point a determination should be made. Let's say certain holes are flooded. If the course allows new pin placements to work around these floods between rounds, then I would continue on. If we are talking about only a few holes out of 18, then I would press on. But if we're talking severe major flooding in that a majority of the holes are flooded, or access to and out of the park is becoming an issue, then yes I would call to suspend or cancel play.

I played in the 2010 St. Patrick's Classic in Orangevale, CA on a 24 hole round that lasted from 11:00-5:30pm. It rained the entire time, not stopping once, the creeks were all flooded to the top, some of the holes did have flooding, it was cold outside, and we were fighting daylight at the the end of the round. It was miserable conditions, but after awhile, I just started having fun with it, laughing at each hole, trying to figure out how to throw a disc wet, retrieving my disc in 3 ft of icecold creekbeds, and wondering when will this all end. The rain wasn't heavy but it was constant the whole time. I think we may of had a few dropouts. I wasn't even prepared for the rain, no rain gear, or extra towels.

Your event sounds like it was worse than these conditions, I wonder how many players were able to manage through. I don't think the TD should have left the event, unless he had a co-td there to assist. Well, hopefully will hear more details of this event and how it turned out.

...
So what happens if a TD has made a bad call? Let's be honest here for a moment.
...
1. What should be done to right wrongs if a TD has made a "bad call"?
2. Is a 25-50% drop out rate a fair indicator of a "bad call"?

1. Not much can be done. Once event is over and the awards are done, the event is done, bad calls and all. Just like when the refs of your favorite sports team make a bad call on the field. We can all see in the replay it was a bad call, but we can't turn back time and do it over. Did the ref/TD use his best judgment? If so, we have to understand he is human and can make mistakes. Live and Learn.

2. No. Actual evidence is needed to prove or assign guilt, not simply a "fair indicator". Did any players seek medical help? Were players stranded by high water in the park? If a player was injured due to the actions of the TD, then the PDGA could look into a disciplinary procedure against the TD. Some type of suspension is the usual punishment.


Again, what do you want? An apology? Your money back? TD suspended from the PDGA? Attention?

The players seem to be at the mercy of the TD's discretion. How can we protect players rights from a "bad call".



We really have to trust our officials to apply the rules in a fair manner. If they don't, we can file formal complaints.



As for what should be done right now.

We should wait patiently for the results to be posted, or a response from the TD or from the Tour Manager.

FYI, the TD has 30 days to turn in the results to the PDGA.

The players seem to be at the mercy of the TD's discretion. How can we protect players rights from a "bad call".
Protect players' rights? A little melodramatic, no? Players should be looking out for their own "rights". Saying the players need protection from a TD implies they're being held at a tournament against their will or something. Every player at a tournament ALWAYS has the choice to quit and walk away if they feel unsafe or uncomfortable or that the TD is making a "bad call".

So what happens if a TD has made a bad call? Let's be honest here for a moment. A TD has nothing to lose by a player, or even multiple players dropping out of a round. As stated before, he already has everyones money.
Are you implying that the TD would have something to gain by continuing the event? If all the money paid in entry fees is returned to the players via player packs to those that showed at all and prizes to those who completed the event and finished at the top of their division, what's the problem? Oh, wait, YOU missed out on getting prizes. String the TD up for daring to keep a tournament running when you didn't want to keep playing.

1. What should be done to right wrongs if a TD has made a "bad call"?
Like Discette said, nothing. The key thing here is what you are calling "wrong" isn't necessarily truly "wrong".
2. Is a 25-50% drop out rate a fair indicator of a "bad call"?
Absolutely not. Not even close. All we know from a 25-50% drop-out rate is that 25-50% of the players decided not to finish. We don't have any idea what exactly precipitated the drop-outs. Take a look at this event from February (http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/64521). 11 drop-outs out of 41 players (26.8%). Did the TD make a "bad call" to continue when so many players decided to quit? Should this TD be thoroughly investigated for malfeasance due to this drop-out rate?

Nope. The players that quit did so simply because they didn't want to continue slogging through 1-2 feet of snow. No rain, no lightning, no flooding...mostly cloudy and about 30 degrees most of the day. They quit because they were miserable, tired, wet, cold, who knows. But the 1-2 feet of snow was there when they started, so it wasn't as though they didn't know what they were getting into.

I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill here. All I'm getting out of this is that the TD decided one thing, you disagreed with his decision, and now you are demanding (sorry, asking what can be done "now" is demanding) that there be some kind of restitution or punishment because you were so clearly in the right and the TD was so clearly in the wrong.

Are you implying that the TD would have something to gain by continuing the event? If all the money paid in entry fees is returned to the players via player packs to those that showed at all and prizes to those who completed the event and finished at the top of their division, what's the problem? Oh, wait, YOU missed out on getting prizes. String the TD up for daring to keep a tournament running when you didn't want to keep playing.

jconnell. I really don't understand why you're attacking me. I am not attacking the TD as a person, but merely stating that in the current system/rules there is no incentive for a TD to cancel an event, and every incentive to keep it going. I'm not trying to string up anyone, I'm just stating facts, asking questions and looking for answers.

$45 times 85 players is $3,825. Now I could sit here and do the math to show you how much it costs to order custom T's and root beer (roughly 10 bucks or less per T-shirt and no more than 50 cents per bottle) but the bottom line is the TD is making a profit. I don't see how you can make any argument otherwise.


Several times now people have mentioned that I didn't have to play and could have asked for my money back before the tournament began.

Section 1.3 of the competition manual states

D. No refunds will be issued after the 7th day prior to the start of the event, but the player shall be sent a player�s package if one was provided to event competitors.

So I don't understand where this idea of last minute refunds keeps coming up from.


Once again, I'm very sorry if my asking questions has offended someone. I was under the impression that this forum was a safe place to get information and insight. I just recently joined the PDGA and this was my first tournament as a PDGA member. In my opinion the event I participated in was a disaster. I'm trying to figure out what to do differently in the future to avoid such an unpleasant experience, or if there is, or should be some way to better handle weather related issues. I think I raised a lot of good questions, and there have been a lot of good responses as well. As I've said time and time again, I'm still interested in seeing what the results to this whole thing will be. This has definitely been informative. Absolutely not the way I wanted to start my PDGA career, but as I mentioned before it has at least well acquainted me with my competition manual.

Thank you all for your insights.

$45 times 85 players is $3,825. Now I could sit here and do the math to show you how much it costs to order custom T's and root beer (roughly 10 bucks or less per T-shirt and no more than 50 cents per bottle) but the bottom line is the TD is making a profit. I don't see how you can make any argument otherwise.




You left a LOT out of that formulation. Likely several thousand dollars in payouts, to begin with, if it was a normal tournament. Not to mention other expenses. I've TDed events without making any profit at all.

Financially, the TD comes out the same whether it is rescheduled or not (for the most part). His main incentive to continue is to (1) avoid doing twice the volunteer work and (2) avoid angering many players.

*

To your broader question, the PDGA doesn't have police powers. There's not a whole lot they can do. They could deny sanctioning for subsequent events, but the TD could go unsanctioned, or get someone else to run the event for him, or be grateful to be relieved of a sometimes thankless chore.

Any other solutions I can think of would be worse than the problem of a TD "perhaps" making a poor decision on continuing a tournament.

jconnell. I really don't understand why you're attacking me. I am not attacking the TD as a person, but merely stating that in the current system/rules there is no incentive for a TD to cancel an event, and every incentive to keep it going. I'm not trying to string up anyone, I'm just stating facts, asking questions and looking for answers.

$45 times 85 players is $3,825. Now I could sit here and do the math to show you how much it costs to order custom T's and root beer (roughly 10 bucks or less per T-shirt and no more than 50 cents per bottle) but the bottom line is the TD is making a profit. I don't see how you can make any argument otherwise.


Several times now people have mentioned that I didn't have to play and could have asked for my money back before the tournament began.

Section 1.3 of the competition manual states

D. No refunds will be issued after the 7th day prior to the start of the event, but the player shall be sent a player�s package if one was provided to event competitors.

So I don't understand where this idea of last minute refunds keeps coming up from.


Once again, I'm very sorry if my asking questions has offended someone. I was under the impression that this forum was a safe place to get information and insight. I just recently joined the PDGA and this was my first tournament as a PDGA member. In my opinion the event I participated in was a disaster. I'm trying to figure out what to do differently in the future to avoid such an unpleasant experience, or if there is, or should be some way to better handle weather related issues. I think I raised a lot of good questions, and there have been a lot of good responses as well. As I've said time and time again, I'm still interested in seeing what the results to this whole thing will be. This has definitely been informative. Absolutely not the way I wanted to start my PDGA career, but as I mentioned before it has at least well acquainted me with my competition manual.

Thank you all for your insights.
Not attacking, just trying to stress the way you are coming off in this thread. I get that you want to know what the resolution of this will be, but you've now made a handful of posts in this thread pointing out that the TD hasn't responded yet and the results haven't been posted yet. He's got 30 days to submit the results. There's a line between keeping tabs and pestering and I feel you're dancing back and forth over it.

And to be clear, I haven't read anyone saying that you could have quit and asked for a refund. I understand the refund rule and by beginning play in the tournament, you are waiving any claim to a refund in my opinion, even without the stated policy in the competition manual. We're simply saying you always have the option of walking away, period.

No one except you has brought up the idea of getting a refund from this TD, which may be part of what might be rubbing people the wrong way. As I said, all I'm getting out of your posts in this thread is that you wanted the tournament delayed/postponed, the TD didn't delay or postpone, and you want some sort of restitution because the TD was "in the wrong" to continue the event.

Based on my years of experience running and playing events, I haven't read anything so far that tells me there's a problem with the language of the competition manual or that the TD in question did something so egregious so as to warrant discipline or criticism. Perhaps when more details emerge, my view will change. But for now, I don't see anything coming of this.

Once again, I'm very sorry if my asking questions has offended someone. I was under the impression that this forum was a safe place to get information and insight. I just recently joined the PDGA and this was my first tournament as a PDGA member. In my opinion the event I participated in was a disaster. I'm trying to figure out what to do differently in the future to avoid such an unpleasant experience, or if there is, or should be some way to better handle weather related issues. I think I raised a lot of good questions, and there have been a lot of good responses as well. As I've said time and time again, I'm still interested in seeing what the results to this whole thing will be. This has definitely been informative. Absolutely not the way I wanted to start my PDGA career, but as I mentioned before it has at least well acquainted me with my competition manual.

Thank you all for your insights.

I hadn't caught the fact that this was your first tournament. Sorry it came out so poorly. Look at the bright side---your future tournaments are bound to be better!

So take this as passing along the benefits of experience, and not as a criticism.

TDs make very little money, sometimes no money, sometimes lose money, depending on the event. A couple hundred dollars "profit" for an enormous amount of work is the best they can expect, and in a lot of cases it doesn't go to the TD himself, but the local club or course improvements.

With that, TDs are sometimes put in a no-win situation. If they don't suspend play, people get angry. If they do, the other people get angry. Dealing with complaints is sometimes a bitter pill for someone who's doing a lot of work for little or no money.

TDs make mistakes. Hopefully we learn from them.

For players, there is a strong tendency to tough out the worst weather. Well, almost the worst weather. They might perversely enjoy complaining about it, but they'd almost always rather keep playing.

Finally, as I stated before, the PDGA doesn't have strong enforcement powers. They have to rely, in large part, on the good faith of the TDs who volunteer to sanction their tournaments.

The TD has communicated with Gentry and indicated the event was completed even with the nasty weather. Scores haven't been posted since he's in the middle of a move and hopes to have them up by Monday.

.... In my opinion the event I participated in was a disaster. I'm trying to figure out what to do differently in the future to avoid such an unpleasant experience, ...



Hopefully many years from now, you will look back fondly on your first PDGA event. Plus you now have your very own "weather war story" to share with folks: "I remember my first PDGA event back in '11. To this day, it was the worst weather I have ever played in. It was so rainy, cold and miserable that half the players quit before the end of the first round!....."




Welcome to the club! I remember playing Pro Worlds in Minneapolis in 2001. The weather was so hot....

you could have asked the TD for your registration back and went home. However, you didn't and you should at that point take responsibility for you decision.

This is the quote that I was referring to. Can someone explain this?

Thanks Chuck for the update once again.

Previous to this thread I didn't know that a TD had 30 days to post the scores. I saw that the scores for Saturday had been posted immediately and was wondering why the scores for Sunday had not yet been posted. Thank you for the information. Once again, I have simply been looking for answers, many of which have now been supplied.

My thoughts and questions have either come from either the competition manual or from other players at the tournament.

One of the players at the tournament whom later dropped out said "It sucks that we have to sit out here in this while they sit back and make a killing". Leading me to believe that this was a business transaction situation, not a largely volunteer operation. I understand this much better now, once again thank you for the information.

Most of the players I talked to during the round and after the round were very avid about how much everything stunk, how this was a crappy call, bad for the course, shouldn't count because the scorecards weren't even readable after being so wet etc. It seems now that this is normal for the DG scene to have so many people complaining, but at the time it lead me to believe that improper conduct was in practice.

I meant no harm to the TD, as stated before, "He seemed like a genuine and fair guy". However, if things had been handled in a way that was improper, then yes, i would like to see things made right. From what I've read here, it seems that things were handled appropriately and I am mostly satisfied. I plan to continue to ask questions as they come up and I believe that that should be encouraged. Isn't it good to have players that are constantly looking into the rules and asking questions? Perhaps some of my questions have been read wrong and have "come off" in an undesirable way. If so, I am sorry. Once again this seems to be the limitation of this type of communication (discussion boards and text in general). I believe if we were all having a face to face conversation this would be resolved quickly and without nearly so much drama.

As it stands, I think that this thread has pretty much run it's course. I have one more post to make, an email I got from disc golf promoter Terry Miller that I felt explained everything very clearly and fairly. I'll post that after this post.

This is from an e-mail I received from Terry Miller earlier today. I found it extremely helpful in better explaining the rules/tournament customs of disc golf. I'm posting it because I think others will find it helpful as well.

"Now moving onto your real concerns which is the decision(s) that Scott Reek did (or didn't) make as a tournament director.

Please keep in mind that I have run well over 100 tournaments (probably at least 50 to 60 of those being PDGA Sanctioned) and played in over 500 events spanning 18 years. I've played in everything ranging from record breaking heat and heat indexes (1999 Worlds in KC comes to mind, 2001 Worlds in Minnesota was insane, 2002 Houston Words was intense, 2006 Augusta Worlds, etc) to 50 and 60 MPH winds (more than one crazy year in Bowling Green) to torrential downpours (2003 Flagstaff Worlds) to -50 below wind chills just a few years ago at the Cracked Plastic Classic in Michigan. Needless to say, I've seen or experienced just about every weather condition possible. Heck, you may have heard about the insane snowstorm just a few weeks ago during the Silver Creek Open II event in Manitowoc. It took me nearly 4 hours just to get home from the event and I was stuck in the parking lot on top of it!

I'm not telling you these because I think it is a tough guy (or dumb guy) competition. I'm saying that disc golf presents many challenges especially living in Wisconsin. As the joke goes, "If you don't like the weather in Wisconsin just wait 15 minutes because it will change" So were the conditions you played in on Sunday intense? Absolutely! Were they enough to stop, postpone, or cancel the event? No. My general take on the situations has a strong PDGA backing which basically states, if it's not lightning, feel free to play on. Now if I hear a tornado siren (2008 Fox Valley Open), then we certainly blow a horn, bring it in, and assess the situation. If the weather is going to break then we wait it out as best we can and get going again later that day. If not, then we see if we've completed at least one round of play. I must say though, in all the tournaments I've ever played, there has never been a single one where we couldn't get in a full round of play. It's just not common to have 8 to 10 straight hours of truly non-playable conditions.

Let's clarify though - you have every right as a player to appropriately prepare for the event and the intense conditions, to opt out of playing in the event, or to start playing and then still withdraw. However, I don't believe there is much stock in the idea that many people didn't like the situation therefore wanted to get a refund and rush home. I bet just about every player that wasn't currently in the lead would love to do that. Unfortunately, I'm guessing the negative sentiment grew from within and I can only imagine the murmur of people saying, "We deserve a refund because these conditions suck so that's what we'll demand."

I love that you've done some research and used the competition manual and the rules to make your case but I feel like you've selectively chosen pieces and not left everything in context. Likewise, even if you take each word literally, someone could make the case that, "Joe broke his toe during the first round and withdrew 17 holes in therefore not all players completed 18 holes". When really the rule is stating that at least 18 holes need to be played for the event to be considered an event. That means if People A, B, C and D complete 18 holes but people W, X, Y, and Z only get through 12 holes and the event gets called due to rain, no one could say that one group or other 'completed' the round and therefore there is no winner.

Lastly - I'll just say that I've CC'd Scott on this response because although I really value your insight and opinions - I must say I would have done the exact same thing as he did. The conditions were obviously less than ideal and down right miserable. However, a TD's job is to put on the best possible event but occasionally that includes making judgment calls that some people won't agree with. In the same breath I respect your decision to withdraw from the event because it is what you felt was safest for you. Regardless if 5 people remained or 75 people remained there to stick it out - from what I've heard, I believe he did the right thing. No lightning, tornadoes, or earthquakes during the round = play on! That might be harsh but at least it's consistent and you can know what to expect from me in a similar situation. Unless you were in Hawaii - I don't think you'd find many other TD's that would have acted differently from what Scott did.

If you do have any other further questions - feel free to shoot them my way. It's hard to convey emotion in e-mails as you know but I hope this sincerely gives you my personal and professional take on this specific scenario. It was less than ideal for many reasons but sometimes some things are simply out of our control.

Thanks!

Terry"


Thank you all for your patience in helping through this. I definitely think it'll be, as discette said, something to laugh about later down the road.

Didn't realize this was your first PDGA event, Discette makes a good point about it being one to remember. Since you are new to PDGA, note that many people from TDs, to spotters, additional officials, organizers, and promoters do most of this work as volunteers to help grow the sport. I haven't met a TD who has ever thought about making money off an event for personal gain. If additional funds are raised then it most likely goes into club funds, donation for a charity, or to increase PRO payout to attract out-of-town pros. At the end of the day, thank these people for their hard work and volunteering their spare time.

well at the begining it wasn't raining or anything, :confused: the weather was easily safe to host a tournament. i got wet as did everyone and there was no lightning check your weather report again buddy. The second round went with no rain, snow, or sleet, so as someone who has played far worse weathered tourneys in wi mco 09-10 as example. i'm glad the tourney continued.

all and all good event even though 30 people quit

ive played a few scott reek tournaments. he is an excellent TD and i would trust his decision.
we have all played some tournaments in awful conditions. thats the breaks man. heck i remember an IOS in Crystal Lake some years ago were we did have lightning (on our way in from the round stoppage call, lightning struck only a couple 100ft from my group), and play was stopped a couple of times. but as soon as the warning died we went back to it. a few people left but the overwhelming majority stayed and completed. its apart of competing in an outdoor sport. plus we aint baseball wussies (would prefer a different word), we play in rain.
if youre really concerned about weather in tournaments then stick to same day reg and youll be fine (as long as the tourn doesnt fill).

Hey Nate, here's a good article about Californians battling out in flooded conditions: http://www.chicoer.com/fromthenewspaper/ci_17711161

Hope this article helps enlighten you to see that we disc golfers are die hard fans of our sport who will play in almost any condition, rain, snow, wind, or shine, anything short of hazardous conditions such as lightning.

With the amount of feedback provided here, hopefully you have gained some insight to prepare for future PDGA events involving drastic weather conditions, welcome to the PDGA.