JHBlader86
Oct 31 2010, 02:07 PM
Just played a tournament where a few groups (at least three) holed out on the wrong basket thinking we were playing in the long position. Seeing as this was the Pro and Advanced pool its always been that way, but the hole we played was never announced, it was listed at the bottom of the score card, which figuring that at least three groups missed shows that it wasnt just a fluke by one group, but several. This course change was never mentioned at either player meeting so must the TD always announce any pin changes, or does it all fall on the players?

sammyshaheen
Oct 31 2010, 04:14 PM
I would fault the players if it was
listed on your scorecard which baskets
your division plays.

It goes without saying the TD should have mentioned
something but it appears from reading your post
that the basket positions were addressed.

Take care

JHBlader86
Oct 31 2010, 04:16 PM
This is actually the second time I've been in this situation. A tournament I played in a few years ago had multiple pin positions, but the ones played were not announced. Just listed in a booklet.

jconnell
Oct 31 2010, 05:34 PM
801.04 Playing the Stipulated Course
A. It is the responsibility of the player to play the course correctly.

The TD disseminated the information to all players via the scorecard. The mistake was that you and other players made an assumption about the pin positions in use, and the assumption obviously was incorrect. Just because a particular position was used in one tournament does not make it the "normal" or "usual" position for a division.

I would say that on any course on which there are multiple pin locations, every player should make it a point to be crystal clear which location they are supposed to play to on every hole. It's one thing if the TD doesn't clearly specify, but if the scorecard is marked or each player is given a program/caddy book with all the details, it's entirely on the player to play it correctly. The point of printing the pins on the scorecard or in the book is two-fold: 1) disseminate the information clearly and 2) save the TD from having to go over each hole individually at the player meeting. No one likes an hour long player meeting, right? We do this at our bigger tournaments for that reason...the player meeting is for the players to ask questions and seek clarifications, not for the TD to lecture and drone on and on.

JerryChesterson
Oct 31 2010, 06:25 PM
Just played a tournament where a few groups (at least three) holed out on the wrong basket thinking we were playing in the long position. Seeing as this was the Pro and Advanced pool its always been that way, but the hole we played was never announced, it was listed at the bottom of the score card, which figuring that at least three groups missed shows that it wasnt just a fluke by one group, but several. This course change was never mentioned at either player meeting so must the TD always announce any pin changes, or does it all fall on the players?

Often times it isn't feasible to say every pin position or tee position or local rule that may or may not have changed during a players meeting. As a TD it is always best to put it in writing and as a player it is always best to refer to the written rule at the start of each hole and any time there is a question.

eupher61
Oct 31 2010, 06:38 PM
Seems pretty shoddy of a TD to have multiple baskets on any hole, unless the 'wrong' ones are covered somehow.

Still, if it's on the scorecard, clearly marked by something other than distance (can't use measuring devices)..if it says "use the Red placement" and the pin is clearly marked Red, you have no recourse.

The fact that 3 groups did it makes me think, no matter what, that the TD needs to do a better job of making sure it doesn't happen.

jconnell
Nov 01 2010, 10:07 AM
Seems pretty shoddy of a TD to have multiple baskets on any hole, unless the 'wrong' ones are covered somehow.

Still, if it's on the scorecard, clearly marked by something other than distance (can't use measuring devices)..if it says "use the Red placement" and the pin is clearly marked Red, you have no recourse.

The fact that 3 groups did it makes me think, no matter what, that the TD needs to do a better job of making sure it doesn't happen.
The fact that three groups did it makes me think there are way too many inattentive players making bad assumptions on the course. The mistake is 100% on the players here because they made an assumption (which pin to play) without verifying it (either asking the TD or, you know, checking the scorecard). The TD can't control whether or not the players pay attention.

james_mccaine
Nov 01 2010, 12:41 PM
yeah, but a TD should never have multiple pin placements on the same hole without clearly putting a bag on the position not in use. Technically, maybe it the player's responsibility, but this sounds like an open-field fumble by the TD.

cgkdisc
Nov 01 2010, 12:52 PM
Some events have some divisions playing to the long pin and others playing to the short pin in the same round so that doesn't always work.

james_mccaine
Nov 01 2010, 01:03 PM
I guess that happens, but have never seen it in all my tourneys. Around Texas, maybe we benefit from Houck's influence as designers realize you use different tees, rather than different pin positions to address ability levels. Simultaneously having two pins in play on the same tourney is asking for trouble. A poor practice that the governing body should address, imo.

cgkdisc
Nov 01 2010, 01:35 PM
Easy to say when you don't have ski hill courses. Having one tee with two pins on especially hilly courses can be less expensive to get two layouts than using dual tees because installing tees on slopes can be more challenging, more expensive and also not possible without getting in the ski runs. Property values in the east where you see dual pin courses are also higher than Texas. So, it can be more important to maximize variety on the same property with two tees and two pins like Warwick.

johnrock
Nov 01 2010, 01:42 PM
It's easy on ski hills also to use one basket and multiple tees. Sipapu has been one of the best ski hill courses for a long time and they've never used more than one basket per hole.

I understand the draw for 2 tees/2 baskets per hole, it's just not that common out this way.

cgkdisc
Nov 01 2010, 03:10 PM
It's easy on ski hills also to use one basket and multiple tees. Sipapu has been one of the best ski hill courses for a long time and they've never used more than one basket per hole.
Sipapu also went in before the innovation of using two baskets versus two tees on several holes was developed in the east. I notice that Sipapu only has rubber mats and the tees on the north and east coast hilly courses are usually concrete. There's more cost and effort involved to construct these more permanent tee structures. A second basket can less expensive and intrusive on these dual use hills than a second tee.

wsfaplau
Nov 01 2010, 03:15 PM
I guess that happens, but have never seen it in all my tourneys. Around Texas, maybe we benefit from Houck's influence as designers realize you use different tees, rather than different pin positions to address ability levels. Simultaneously having two pins in play on the same tourney is asking for trouble. A poor practice that the governing body should address, imo.

Having multiple tees on the same hole leads to just as many problems.
My last tourney had an extra hole put in. The tees were clearly labeled PRO and AM yet all players were supposed to use the AM tee in the first round and play it by division in the second. I played it from the PRO pad 1st round and got a penalty.

davidsauls
Nov 01 2010, 03:46 PM
Yep. A couple of years ago I was in a tournament that used different tees in different rounds. One group, in one round, played the long tee when they should have been on the short....and it was the group WITH THE T.D. PLAYING IN IT!

johnrock
Nov 02 2010, 10:00 AM
What info are you basing that timeline on? I thought I have read about a few courses on the East Coast side that have had 2 baskets per hole since the early 90's. Sipapu didn't get installed until '96/'97 if I remember correctly.

When was your last visit to Sipapu, Chuck?

warwickdan
Nov 02 2010, 10:29 AM
Although the rules clearly state it is the players responsibility to play the proper course, the TD has a responsibility to consider "What-ifs" and worst-case scenarios. If a TD is running an event on a "tricked-up course" (i.e. not a standard multiple tee / 1-basket course) they need to go overboard as far as informing players both in print (handouts), with course signage, and verbally.

I blew it at the Skylands Open at Blue Mtn in August by tricking up a few holes without considering a number of "what-ifs". I could blame the players for not reading handouts but as the TD I feel i have an ethical responsibility for doing whatever i can to not put players in an interpretative position. Chalk it up as a learning experience.

At Warwick, where we have 2 permanent baskets and 2 tees on all 18 holes of our main Animal course, everyone (players and event staff) makes sure to constantly be vigilant about being aware of which tees and baskets are in use for specific divisions at events. If you assume you might assume wrong. We're having a 2-day 4-round event this weekend and I'll bet despite all of our best-laid plans there'll be a few players that space and play to the wrong basket. (i just hope they're in my division as i need every advantage i can get.)

johnrock
Nov 02 2010, 10:42 AM
When were the dual baskets per hole installed?

cgkdisc
Nov 02 2010, 10:45 AM
What info are you basing that timeline on? I thought I have read about a few courses on the East Coast side that have had 2 baskets per hole since the early 90's. Sipapu didn't get installed until '96/'97 if I remember correctly.
I wasn't referring to the two tees and two baskets on every hole at Warwick which happened in the 90s and also is not a ski hill course. The new concept for ski hill courses developed a few years ago by Dan Doyle (post #17) was to have exactly two tees and one pin OR one tee and two pins per hole based on which option made more sense on certain holes. On the steeper holes, typically one tee and two pins was the better, less intrusive, cheaper choice with two tees and one pin being better on the less steep holes and where the tees would be off to the side of the ski runs. While this clever option works from a functional standpoint to provide two options on each hole, it's important to have things marked well so players know when they get to each hole whether it has two tees or two pins.

Goatman
Nov 02 2010, 11:06 AM
I played this event. The TD did go over this info at the players meeting. Many players chose not to attend the meeting as pros and adv were playing the other course used first. The TD also stated that info was on the score cards.

august
Nov 08 2010, 02:20 PM
The fact that three groups did it makes me think there are way too many inattentive players making bad assumptions on the course. The mistake is 100% on the players here because they made an assumption (which pin to play) without verifying it (either asking the TD or, you know, checking the scorecard). The TD can't control whether or not the players pay attention.


This is worth repeating because it is so true.

Part of the game is being able to read and comprehend what is going on at the tournament. The TD can put it out there for you to read, but he/she can not make you read it. If reading that material is essential to playing the course correctly, and the player chooses not to read it, then that player is penalizing his/her self.

jconnell
Nov 08 2010, 02:55 PM
I played this event. The TD did go over this info at the players meeting. Many players chose not to attend the meeting as pros and adv were playing the other course used first. The TD also stated that info was on the score cards.
So now we get what I suspected was the case all along.

The original poster makes his defense of playing the wrong pin by saying that the pin his group (and at least two others) played was one that "always" was used for his division. The implication he makes is that the TD changed the "norm" and failed to inform he and these other players of the change (except on the scorecard, but who looks at the scorecard? :rolleyes:).

But if only those three groups got it wrong, that means the other groups apparently got it right and played to the pin the TD intended. How did they know of the change from the "normal" pin they "always" use? Either they were more attentive to the scorecard than the other groups, OR, as Goatman confirms, the TD did make mention of the pin positions to be played after all. :eek: