DeMagnet
Sep 20 2010, 08:51 PM
This situation occurred a while back I was looking for some help deciding how to handle it if it ever rises again. While I am TD, I was not running this particular event. One of the players who is notorious for dropping out of events when not doing well did so during the first round of a 2 round sanctioned tournament. He then insisted that he is still allowed to play the second round. That's the part that I'm concerned about. Let's not get into a debate about DNF'ing. I'd just like to know if that player had any right to make that claim. The TD was unsure of the situation so he allowed him to play with the stipulation that he could not "cash" This player then played and finished the second round and earned a rating for it. How would you handle this?

Now, to take it one step further, would the TD have any right to refuse to allow this player to participate any further? There's no argument over the motive he had for dnf'ing. It was solely for the purpose of protecting his rating. I looked through the message boards and reread the rules and I can find no material covering this situation. What do you guys think?

jconnell
Sep 20 2010, 10:23 PM
803.13 Holing Out

A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:...
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results.
It's covered right there in the rules: intentionally failing to hole out for any reason constitutes withdrawal from competition. I read that to mean that the tournament for that player is over. No coming back for round 2, no refund of entry...he's done.

Considering this player's motives, that's all the more reason to not allow him back into the event. "Protecting" his precious rating should come at the cost of sacrificing his chance to finish the tournament. The only instance I would allow such a player to play later rounds would be in an unofficial capacity such as as an official accompanying a twosome per section 1.6C of the competition manual (such an official is allowed to play along with the group, though scores don't count).

rondpit
Sep 21 2010, 12:22 AM
Let me guess.
Tommy TeeDee let Ned Notorious card ParPlusFour (let's go with a 7) on the holes that Ned failed to finish on the first round.

Thank you Tommy TeeDee for continuing to spread the MYTH that any old unfinished hole ----of ANY kind, is scored as a ParPlusFour (let's go with a 7) even if it has nothing to do with a round START. *

Maybe next time --- there could possibly be a brand new PDGA member with their newly issued PDGA Rules/Comp Manual nearby. Maybe Tommy could ask real nice -- and borrow said booklet. Maybe. (boy, that was tacky. Forgive me, Tommy)

* 804.02 Beginning Play was moved in 2006 to the Competition Manual; 1.5 Practice Rounds and Beginning Play. Both (1) Shotgun STARTS and (2) Staggered STARTS reads ....
"If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown by then, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent tee offs for which a player is absent. "

Starts, just absent starts. All else is myth. Often viral myth. Innoculate as needed.

Ron

davidsauls
Sep 21 2010, 09:19 AM
My answer would have probably been a tactful, "What part if 'I quit' don't you understand?"

SCOTT
Sep 21 2010, 09:56 AM
If memory serves me correctly we had something similar to this happen earlier this year. We had 3 people quit after the first round of 3 round two day tournament. They all came together and left for lunch and did not return for round two. They did alert the TD that they would not be back. Then that night they called while we were setting up the board to tell us they would be back in the AM for round 3. We just did not get it. Why would you want to come back if you’re no longer in the competition? I stated that we are not obligated to let them back in but we could put them in their own group and let them play the final round which would not count. That is what we ended up doing and the players were fine with it. I spoke with one of the quitters and was told they were just worn out for the day. Also said they mainly signed up to show support and play the sport they love. I guess for some people It’s not all about being competitive.

davidsauls
Sep 21 2010, 10:05 AM
I could see doing something like that in really extraordinary circumstances....but it would probably take more than having just been tired. If a player from out of town had to drop out mid-round to, say, take care of a family emergency, or for a temporary injury or illness, I'd probably let him play in a group as a casual player in subsequent rounds.

In no way would the player be eligible for prizes or have round reported on TD report, though.

veganray
Sep 21 2010, 01:09 PM
I had a family matter at Two Days in May several years ago that came up during my Saturday morning round & precluded me from playing round 2 on Saturday. The TD agreed to award me a +72 (+4 x 18) for that round & allow me to play reported, rated rounds on Sunday, which I did.

However, this was a courtesy & I do not believe I was 'entitled' to such treatment. I would have understood perfectly if he decided that my failure to post for round 2 constituted a DNF for the entire event.

billnchristy
Sep 21 2010, 02:03 PM
Isn't quitting to protect your rating pretty stupid? I mean, once you have sucked it up pretty bad you could just intentionally tank the round to ensure it wouldn't count anyways and then at least you are still in the competition.

poisonelf
Sep 21 2010, 05:09 PM
This situation occurred a while back I was looking for some help deciding how to handle it if it ever rises again. While I am TD, I was not running this particular event. One of the players who is notorious for dropping out of events when not doing well did so during the first round of a 2 round sanctioned tournament. He then insisted that he is still allowed to play the second round. That's the part that I'm concerned about. Let's not get into a debate about DNF'ing. I'd just like to know if that player had any right to make that claim. The TD was unsure of the situation so he allowed him to play with the stipulation that he could not "cash" This player then played and finished the second round and earned a rating for it. How would you handle this?

Now, to take it one step further, would the TD have any right to refuse to allow this player to participate any further? There's no argument over the motive he had for dnf'ing. It was solely for the purpose of protecting his rating. I looked through the message boards and reread the rules and I can find no material covering this situation. What do you guys think?

Well to everyone reading the thread I'm the one being talked about. I do have a tendancy to drop out when (only when) the rating wont count at all. For me its anything below 900 drops off for me as it is and if I dont feel like playing and I dont have any obligation to if I paid my entry fee. I'm also prone to injury due to ongoing elbow and shoulder issues which the guy who posted this thread knows about and didn't bother to mention.

Another thing to add to this thread is I ASKED the TD if I could play the second round (obviously he said yes) I did not say that I was entitled too. i had no issue going home since I only live about 7 minutes from the course.

My tournament history is that I have played 65 PDGA events and over another 100 that have not been sanctioned and to date I have dropped out of 9 which have all been in the last 3 years.

In 2008 I dropped one because of weather and I blew my knee out druring the second round of a 4 day tournament which i finished the round where I suffered the injury.

2009 I dropped 3, one of which i smacked my hand against a tree in my back swing cracking a finger nail, another cause the course started flooding mid round, and another cause it was so cold my finger tips cracked and it was in the first few hole of the second round and i seriously just couldnt take it.

In 2010 so far I have dropped 4 so far 2 of which is because of a nagging injury to my elbow which I wear a brace for any and everytime I go out. The 2 others the conditions where so nasty that it was down right stupid to be out in. One of which was on one of my home courses which i know is a pit.

This year alone I would would have dropped out of 3 other tournaments if I was trying to protect my rating (Holler in the Hills {avg 930}, Lebanon Open {avg 947}, and Ashland {913 avg}) so please get your facts straight or give all the facts before you post something about some one else.

veganray
Sep 21 2010, 05:26 PM
I appreciate the clear, cogent, & accurate illustration of the 'victim mentality', poisonelf. You should consider a sport more in tune with your delicate constitution, like chess (no trees to break nails, no cold to chap baby-soft skin, no flooding to cause the agony of damp tootsies, quitting when you're getting your tail whipped is not only A-OK, but encouraged).

jconnell
Sep 21 2010, 05:31 PM
One question...was this tournament full? Were there players that were turned away (or didn't bother showing up/trying to register) because there was no room left in the tournament? Because if there were, then any excuse for quitting a round other than injury/emergency rings kinda hollow for me. I'm sure someone else would have loved to take your spot and regardless of how they were playing, finish each round of the tournament.

Not finishing a round because "I dont feel like playing" is just as lame as quitting to preserve a rating. If you don't want to play, don't show.

poisonelf
Sep 21 2010, 05:32 PM
I never once said I was a victim all I said is I have injuries that affect alot of what I do not just disc golf. What irks me so bad is that this post is by someone that I use to play many, many rounds with and I helped correct his form and help him with his putting. i dont know what brought this on but alot of what is said in this is an insult and I have a right to say that its all. I put the simple facts of the matter out there and your sarcasm isn't called for.

davidsauls
Sep 21 2010, 06:01 PM
I think his point was that he was slandered in the original post.

The details in the example given may be in dispute, but the question's valid. Should a player who quits one round be allowed to play in subsequent rounds? Not entitled, but allowed?

poisonelf
Sep 21 2010, 06:04 PM
thank you davidsauls. I don't mind the question at all but a lot of what was said is very insulting

DeMagnet
Sep 21 2010, 06:59 PM
If you feel slighted by my original post, I apologize for that. It was not my intention to do so. This isn't the place for an argument about the pros and cons of DNF'ing as I stated in the original post. However, I don't think you needed to DNF. I think you're better than that. I just wanted to know if a player should be allowed to play subsequent rounds after not finishing an earlier round. This is the subject of this thread and I'm still looking for some input.
This was not a full event. It was a local c-tier. The weather sucked and most of us had bad rounds, but we played on.

rondpit
Sep 21 2010, 07:51 PM
I just wanted to know if a player should be allowed to play subsequent rounds after not finishing an earlier round. This is the subject of this thread and I'm still looking for some input.

Maybe I read this thread wrong, but IMO --- the "input" was rather plain. The rules say, "NO". Sanctioned events are not a ComeAndGo affair.

Now, not unlike some other posts by fellow TD's, I could kinda maybe possibly imagine an appropriate time to consider such. Like Ray mentioned, I think a TD could consider allowing a player who missed part of a round because of some family type emergency to play the balance of the rounds. Just as a kindness. But, with a few conditons:

* Leader card is pulled. DNF is logged on TD report. (if you missed my previous post, typing 999 (DNF) for a un-finished round is not anywhere near the same as creating some false score by chunking in a ParPlusFour on the unfinished holes.) Gimme an "M". Gimme a "Y". Gimme a "TH" !

* Could play on last card in the division, but no score kept on official card.

* Would have to play in a 4some, because he/she isn't really there. (no 2somes allowed)

* Could make no calls, warnings, seconds, or otherwise.

On a personal note, I played my last tournament with 3 stitches on the end of my middle finger on my throwing hand. Bandaged like a mummy, bleeding, and just plain hurting. I stunk it up big time. Ratings be danged -- I still had fun.

And my son, 18 years old with Down Syndrome, also played in that tournament. His very first time to actually enter and play (instead of hanging out on Dad's card and occasionally throwing). He got frustrated and tired during his 3rd round and said he was not going to finish a hole. I told him if he didn't finish the hole that it would be the same as quitting. Couldn't play anymore. At all. He finished the hole. And the tournament. Makes a fella wonder why anyone would quit.

Ron out.

PhattD
Sep 21 2010, 08:00 PM
I really don't care if someone DNF's one way or the other, it just doesn't affect me in the slightest. As far as letting them play Whatever the TD feels like doing is fine with me. You could use him to help fill out cards where you are short a player for instance. Letting them play basically casts nothing and might encourage them to play the next tournament as well, which helps the club and the other people in the division that will be splitting his entry fee. If the tournament is packed, or it would be a problem to let him play the next round for some other reason, say "Sorry sucks to be you."

Drew32
Sep 22 2010, 04:36 PM
Ok, here's the official answer to this question.

Yes I did make the call at the tournament and yes I did contact the PDGA about the matter.

If a player does not finish the first round but asks to play the second round and the TD allows said player to do so, then said player gets a 999 for the first round and the second round counts and gets a rating for that round. This said player however is out of the competition for any prizes or cash.

The tournament was not full and he was placed on the bottom card.

krupicka
Sep 22 2010, 04:59 PM
That's good information to know. Thank you.

NOHalfFastPull
Sep 23 2010, 12:31 PM
OK fellas, suggest a deep breath and abandoning the I/me/my pronouns.
DeMaggot did not name any names he was only looking for some clarification on returning.
Seemed like a valid question no personal attack or name calling. Didn't even mention the event.
Replies were offered, rules quoted and scenarios speculated. Routine stuff for this bored.
Aptly named PoisonedSelf then posted a self diagnosis of his condition and only used "I" 27 times.
VagaYar's reply seemed harsh (an acquired taste) but on target.
After further review, the ruling on the field stands.
Everyone in time out
steve timm

Names have been changed to tease all involved.

eupher61
Sep 23 2010, 04:01 PM
That's good information, despite all the other stuff.

It is important to know, as Ron pointed out, Par + 4 is the START of a round.
DNF is 999, period.

But, how about mid-round? The topic has come up before about a mad dash to the can by Ricky Gotdaruns for an urgent drop after Bobby Barbecue undercooks the burgers, let's say it's on the 7th hole.
(Ron, thanks for the names inspiration...fun stuff)

Ricky "can't" make it back for the putt on 7, or 8 at all, but gets back for 9.


He gets E+4 for 7 and 8, correct? And is allowed to continue, no questions.

right?

steve

rhett
Sep 23 2010, 04:28 PM
But, how about mid-round? The topic has come up before about a mad dash to the can by Ricky Gotdaruns for an urgent drop after Bobby Barbecue undercooks the burgers, let's say it's on the 7th hole. (Ron, thanks for the names inspiration...fun stuff)

Ricky "can't" make it back for the putt on 7, or 8 at all, but gets back for 9.

He gets E+4 for 7 and 8, correct? And is allowed to continue, no questions.
right?

I would say no. IMO the group should stand aside and let other groups play through while they wait for Ricky to Getriddadaruns. If the group moves on without him then he has withdrawn as there is no option in the rules to take par plus four unless you don't tee at the beginning of the round.

I don't know if the rules explicitly say you can stand aside while a member of the group goes to the bathroom, but it seems fair. I hate bending the rules in bizare ways to get over, but you could also send Ricky to the can and then send another player from the group out to find an official for a ruling on whether going to the bathroom is a withdrawl from the tourney, and then the group can legally stand aside while they wait for the ruling.