Hoser
Aug 28 2010, 09:29 PM
This is giving me a headache:


Rule 803.03A (marking a lie): �After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker.�


My dictionary says �establish� means:
(1) to set in a secure position.
(2) to found, or create,
(3) to cause to be recognized or accepted.

If 803.03A is using the first definition or the third definition, then the placing of the marker �secures the position of� or �causes to be recognized� a lie THAT ALREADY EXISTS. (When did the lie come into existence? Oh, I dunno, maybe when the disc came to rest.) The act of placing the marker doesn�t create the lie, it just makes the existing lie visible so observers can judge your next stance.

But if 803.03A is using the second definition (�to found, or create�), then the very act of marking is what creates the lie � THE LIE DOESN�T COME INTO EXISTENCE UNTIL THE MARKER IS PLACED.

If anybody knows the RC�s answer, please explain exactly when each new lie comes into existence. Does it happen when the disc comes to rest? Or when you place the marker? Or at some other moment? And exactly when does each lie cease to exist? Does it happen when you release your disc into flight? Or when the disc comes to rest? Or when you mark the new lie? Or when?

It�s really important to know these answers, because a player�s score always hinges on where his lie is at the moment he throws.


Hoser :confused:

wsfaplau
Aug 28 2010, 11:18 PM
Hoser,

If you want answers to your questions you should email the RC directly.
Otherwise you will get all kinds of conflicting opinions that WON'T give you a definitive answer.

bruce_brakel
Aug 29 2010, 02:40 AM
Can you give an example of any circumstance where the answers to those questions would make a difference in a player's score on a particular hole?

cgkdisc
Aug 29 2010, 10:51 AM
Read Hoser's post 41 on this thread http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=31667&page=2

bravo
Aug 29 2010, 11:03 PM
this sounds like random banter with a bit of thaught.
at least it is forcing Hoser to read and attempt to comprehend the rules and the thaught behind them.

JerryChesterson
Aug 31 2010, 04:21 PM
Its not that hard. If you don't pick up the thrown disc your lie is at the trailing edge of the thrown disc. If you mark it with a mini its at the trailing edge of the mini. Its just that simple.

pterodactyl
Aug 31 2010, 05:10 PM
Its not that hard. If you don't pick up the thrown disc your lie is at the trailing edge of the thrown disc. .

Unless your disc is up in a tree or OB or...

JerryChesterson
Sep 01 2010, 10:35 AM
Unless your disc is up in a tree or OB or...

If your disc is up in a tree and you do not have a mini, what's you play?

veganray
Sep 01 2010, 10:50 AM
Several options:
1) Borrow a mini from a competitor
2) Find a leaf, piece of paper, or other sufficiently-large object, tear it into a circular shape between 7 & 15cm in diameter (and smash it to a height of <=3cm, if necessary), and use it
3) DNF

NOHalfFastPull
Sep 01 2010, 03:20 PM
Vegan ray is on to my magic tricks.
Here is my mini of choice:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdGQpA_14rEO7pHbqt_dst8E6Y6-iMGxF5HtuT1OxO0P0rwA0&t=1&usg=__KyugEiI2baneOlT4ujmnXM5SClM=
Recycling is good and relaxing.
steve timm

eupher61
Oct 15 2010, 06:58 PM
if'n you wanta get right down to it, this really isn't the rule anymore anyway.

The use of a mini is optional unless the previously thrown disc is going to be thrown from that lie.

It's an example of how too many words can cause problems. Like headaches.

jconnell
Oct 15 2010, 07:44 PM
if'n you wanta get right down to it, this really isn't the rule anymore anyway.

The use of a mini is optional unless the previously thrown disc is going to be thrown from that lie.

It's an example of how too many words can cause problems. Like headaches.
Incorrect. Using a mini is required "when repositioning the lie under the rules. This includes the following rules: out-of-bounds, disc above the playing surface, lost disc, unplayable lie, relocated for relief, interference, or repositioning the lie within 1 meter of the out-of-bounds line." (803.03 (http://www.pdga.com/rules/80303-marking-the-lie))

It's an example of how necroposting without all the facts can cause problems.

eupher61
Oct 20 2010, 05:41 PM
Incorrect. Using a mini is required "when repositioning the lie under the rules. This includes the following rules: out-of-bounds, disc above the playing surface, lost disc, unplayable lie, relocated for relief, interference, or repositioning the lie within 1 meter of the out-of-bounds line." (803.03 (http://www.pdga.com/rules/80303-marking-the-lie))

It's an example of how necroposting without all the facts can cause problems.

I stand duly corrected. I only wish it could be done without the needless smarta** commentary. Can't we just talk, answer, correct, and not have to throw everything up into each other's faces?

My comment on "too many words" was referring to the rule.

I will not be talked down to by anyone. Explain, don't insult.

rhett
Oct 22 2010, 10:50 AM
I believe that "establishing a lie" should be defined somewhere for clarity. I think the awkward wording of this rule is attempting to cover the possibility of a lost disc or a disc suspended above the playing surface.

Since your disc can be lost, simply finding it is required to establish the lie. (It can be the disc itself or you can mark it, but you have to find it first.) If it is suspended above the playing surface, you don't have a lie until you mark it on the playing surface.

OB and missed mandy shots that are found have lies that must be relocated. There's a subtle difference there, but there is a difference.

And one last thing... :) You're initial lie is established by the start horn or the call for your group to tee-off: it's the tee-pad of your starting hole.

veganray
Oct 22 2010, 11:00 AM
OB and missed mandy shots that are found have lies that must be relocated. There's a subtle difference there, but there is a difference.
I strongly disagree with your "subtle difference" theory, Rhett. Section 800 of Professional Disc Golf Association's Official Rules of Disc Golf defines "lie" as "the spot on the playing surface upon which the player takes his or her stance in accordance with the rules." Since, in the case of OB or missed mando, the player will not "take his or her stance in accordance with the rules" from the spot where the disc came to rest, that spot where the disc came to rest is not a lie, and a lie doesn't exist until the legal mark is made at the appropriate spot for the next throw.

rhett
Oct 22 2010, 07:59 PM
Point taken.

Our choice of terminology throughout the rule book affects other sectiosn of the rulebook. Consider this:
803.03.B. A player is only required to mark the lie with a mini marker disc when repositioning the lie under the rules. This includes the following rules: out-of-bounds, disc above the playing surface, lost disc, unplayable lie, relocated for relief, interference, or repositioning the lie within 1 meter of the out-of-bounds line.

By stating that we are "repositioning the lie", we are implying that a lie already exists. In the 2nd and 3rd items listed, there is no lie yet. Same for #1 if we accept vegan's proposition.

Conclusion? No wonder few players try to actually follow the rules of play! :)

gotcha
Oct 23 2010, 08:49 AM
I will not be talked down to by anyone.


What happens if during conversation the other person ascends a ladder or staircase?

Fossil
Oct 23 2010, 10:20 AM
What happens if during conversation the other person ascends a ladder or staircase?

Or gets on their high horse? A real possibility here.