denny1210
Aug 09 2010, 02:36 PM
This past Saturday I directed a one day tournament that served to determine the recipient of the Florida State Representative's spot for the 2010 USDGC. The format was one round of 18 holes, followed by a second round of 18 for the top four players. Both rounds were played on the "Gold" layout at Pine Oaks in Ocala, which will also serve as the Players Cup tournament layout. The course is 10,700 ft., par 66 and the winner, Billy Seaman, was even par for the two rounds.

The drama:

The course has three ponds that have $100,000+ pond liners. The property owners have forbidden anyone from wading into the ponds to retrieve discs. At the players' meeting, I stated that discs could be retrieved with a stick from the shore, but any players that waded into any of the ponds would be disqualified.

It had been posted that tournament registration would close at 10am. For the event, we had four groups of players tee off sequentially on tee 1 and tee 10. At 10:30am the first two groups teed off. At 10:35am, two people arrived wanting to play. My instinct was to not allow them to play, but I did not want to hear the arguments, so I pulled one player off a foursome card to make a threesome and allowed them to be the last group to tee-off. (this was an error on my part).

I handed each of the two players a sheet that had course map on one side and a bullet-point summary of the course rules on the other side. The summary page did not explicitly state that wading into any of the ponds would result in disqualification.

Following completion of the round, it was brought to my attention that one of the two players that had arrived late had removed his shirt and waded out into the pond to retrieve his disc. I determined that I would seek confirmation of the action from the player himself, and if he admitted the act, disqualify him from the event. It ended up turning out that the individual in question had shot the lowest score of the first round.

When I saw the individual in question, I asked him if it was true that he had waded into the pond and he said "yes". I then informed him that it was against the course rules and that he was, unfortunately, disqualified.

The individual in question and several other players have expressed their displeasure with my decision and I've been referred to as "GOD" on another site. I interpret this to mean that they feel I'm on a power trip.

I grew up playing ball golf and caddied at country clubs. I love watching golf on TV and spectating at professional golf tournaments. I work hard on the courses I design and the tournaments I'm involved with running to move disc golf in the direction of ball golf. Honor and professionalism are two important values that are necessary in disc golf to move us forward as a sport.

I'm a midwestern transplant here in Florida. The Florida disc golf scene is strongly rooted in the historic traditions of the game, many of which are great. The weather is great, the competition is friendly and the community family has a great spirit. Unfortunately, folks are hesitant to adhere to the rules of the game for fear of being ostracized from the family. I don't know if it's true or not, but I was told earlier today that I was the first TD to disqualify a player from a tournament in Florida, EVER.

I'm posting this to get some national feedback.

krazyeye
Aug 09 2010, 02:51 PM
Player is responsible for knowing what is said at the players meeting. DQ. Although you should have stuck to your guns and not allowed the two late shows compete anyway.

veganray
Aug 09 2010, 02:51 PM
I'm 100% behind your decision. While it may have been a poor idea to let the late-comers into the event, it was their fault they missed the players' meeting & the explicit prohibition for the act that led to one's DQ'ing. It would've been an even poorer idea to let the offending player slide, claiming ignorance of the rule. No sympathy here; kudos for having an increasingly rare quality in the PDGA & its TDs - a spine.

discette
Aug 09 2010, 03:02 PM
I agree with your decision to disqualify the player 100%.

Kind of like raising children. You have to set rules and limits, but most of all, you have to be responsible enough to enforce the rules.

august
Aug 09 2010, 03:11 PM
It is indeed a shame, but you cannot stick to the rules in this sport AND be popular. I suspect if you stuck to your guns and did not let these folks play, you would have heard a similar uproar for not relaxing the deadline rule. Then, it appears the majority wants you to relax the no-retrieving-discs-from-the-pond rule for this player. Where does it end? It doesn't.

Sad state of affairs.

JerryChesterson
Aug 09 2010, 03:51 PM
Sorry I have to side with the player here.

You gave them a rule sheet that did not have the rule in question on it. You let them in late, knowing they had missed the player's meeting (that's on you not the player) and thereby hadn't heard the rule. How can they reasonably be expected to follow it.

From my perspective you should have given the player a warning, explained the rule (which it appears would have been their very first time hearing it) and then penalized them after that.

Again, How can you expect a player to follow a course rule that isn't on the rules sheet? A rules sheet should always list all course rules and never a "summary" of the course rules. And I don't want to hear about how you said it at the players meeting. We've covered that you basically absolved the players of this responsibility by letting them in late knowing they'd missed the meeting. Also you should never have a rule that isn't on the rules sheet (even though the rules sheet says all you have to do is mention it in the players meeting). This only leads to bad things in every instance. Every time a TD says, "Oh and here's a rule that isn’t on the sheet" they are just begging for there to be some sort of controversy.


Now that I've said all that you are within your rights to disqualify the player for not wearing a shirt, which is required. (Unless this wasn't a PDGA event in which case I'd ask why is a USDGC qualifier if its not. I'd also ask why a 1 day non-sanctioned event is the state's USDGC qualifier buts that’s a different topic altogether).

davidsauls
Aug 09 2010, 03:52 PM
Player is responsible for knowing what is said at the players meeting. DQ. Although you should have stuck to your guns and not allowed the two late shows compete anyway.

Absolutely.

Besides, if you let them slide, someone else will come to you complaining that he lost his best driver in the water and lost because of it---he could have retrieved it and won the tournament, if he'd had the leeway that the late arrivers had.

Making exceptions is a sure route to TD grief.

RhynoBoy
Aug 09 2010, 04:31 PM
Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse for not knowing them. If you want to play in a tournament, show up on early, and attend the players meeting.

wsfaplau
Aug 09 2010, 05:44 PM
You made the correct call. I support your decision to DQ.
It is the responsibility of the PLAYERS to know the rules.

arhunt
Aug 09 2010, 05:52 PM
I would like to shake your hand for having the guts to enforce the rules. It was a tough call to make, but you absolutely made the right one!

I wish more TD's were like you!

DShelton
Aug 09 2010, 07:05 PM
Sorry I have to side with the player here.

You gave them a rule sheet that did not have the rule in question on it. You let them in late, knowing they had missed the player's meeting (that's on you not the player) and thereby hadn't heard the rule. How can they reasonably be expected to follow it.

From my perspective you should have given the player a warning, explained the rule (which it appears would have been their very first time hearing it) and then penalized them after that.

Again, How can you expect a player to follow a course rule that isn't on the rules sheet? A rules sheet should always list all course rules and never a "summary" of the course rules. And I don't want to hear about how you said it at the players meeting. We've covered that you basically absolved the players of this responsibility by letting them in late knowing they'd missed the meeting. Also you should never have a rule that isn't on the rules sheet (even though the rules sheet says all you have to do is mention it in the players meeting). This only leads to bad things in every instance. Every time a TD says, "Oh and here's a rule that isn�t on the sheet" they are just begging for there to be some sort of controversy.


Now that I've said all that you are within your rights to disqualify the player for not wearing a shirt, which is required. (Unless this wasn't a PDGA event in which case I'd ask why is a USDGC qualifier if its not. I'd also ask why a 1 day non-sanctioned event is the state's USDGC qualifier buts that�s a different topic altogether).

Sorry to say it, but 804.01 A clearly states that all players are responsible for following what is stated in the players' meeting. Yes, the rule should have been printed on the sheet gien to all the players prior to tee off, but it was covered in the meeting, which the individual decided to miss for whatever reason.

rob
Aug 09 2010, 08:07 PM
I agree with the DQ.
Question, did the 3rd player in the group (who was at the players meeting?) not tell the guy he should not go into the water due to it being a DQable offense?

mannyd_928
Aug 09 2010, 09:14 PM
It was never stated whether he went in during the round or after the round. If he went in during, I agree, DQ (although you shouldn't have let them in to play)! But if he went in after the round and the card was turned in, I don't see how anyone could tell him what to do, or not, on his own free time, unless it is against PARK policy. And even then, it's more of a police matter. I also have to agree, if it was for a USDGC spot, it should have been a sanctioned event!

md21954
Aug 09 2010, 09:24 PM
It was never stated whether he went in during the round or after the round. If he went in during, I agree, DQ (although you shouldn't have let them in to play)! But if he went in after the round and the card was turned in, I don't see how anyone could tell him what to do, or not, on his own free time, unless it is against PARK policy. And even then, it's more of a police matter. I also have to agree, if it was for a USDGC spot, it should have been a sanctioned event!

right. screw courtesy and common sense. the round was over! :eyesrolling:

just let the plastic go and don't **** off the property owners. it ain't that much to ask.

kudos to the td for doing the right thing. it's shameful for the sport that this is even an issue.

mannyd_928
Aug 09 2010, 09:48 PM
Just re-read original post from Denny and your right, he did say it was against the property owners wishes for any one to wade into the water. And he did tell everyone at the players meeting they would be disqualified if they did so, and this guy goes and does it because he wasn't at the players meeting and gets himself disqualified. Wrong decision to go for a swim, right decision to DQ. My bad, I should have read a little slower!

tkieffer
Aug 09 2010, 11:00 PM
I would guess the others in the group warned him. But if not, it doesn't matter.

Kudos on doing what was right, too bad the disc golf environment, or at least the more vocal component, doesn't always stand behind such things.

JerryChesterson
Aug 10 2010, 02:50 PM
So any more discussion on how the USDGC spot for a state is determined at a non sanctioned event? Who determines that?

veganray
Aug 10 2010, 03:05 PM
State rep can dole out that spot however he/she sees fit. We do it with a non-sanctioned event in VA, and there are other reps who merely bestow the spot onto some fortunate soul with no competition at all, sanctioned or not.

IMHO, giving that latitude to the state reps is EXACTLY the way it should be.

discette
Aug 10 2010, 04:40 PM
State rep can dole out that spot however he/she sees fit.


This statement is 100% correct for states that have not developed set qualification methods.

denny1210
Aug 11 2010, 02:19 PM
thank you all for the feedback and support. this tournament, as with all times running events, has been a learning experience.

sammyshaheen
Aug 16 2010, 11:52 PM
Even if it is ok to wade in the pond you should
not be doing that during a round.

JerryChesterson
Aug 17 2010, 09:22 AM
Did anyone see the PGA Championship this weekend? Proves that even when TDs do what they should do, mainly put ALL the rules on a rules sheet and post them everywhere, they still get blamed when a player makes the mistake.

So the lesson is that even if you had done what you should have done as TD(put the rule on the rules sheet), somebody would have found something to complain about :D

gippy
Aug 17 2010, 09:38 AM
State rep can dole out that spot however he/she sees fit. We do it with a non-sanctioned event in VA, and there are other reps who merely bestow the spot onto some fortunate soul with no competition at all, sanctioned or not.

IMHO, giving that latitude to the state reps is EXACTLY the way it should be.

IMHO I dont think it should be this way to many favorites get played. Only the last 2 years did we have a qualifier to determine the spot to the USDGC. I think each state should have some sort of event played. State Rep being TD and making the format for said event. Not just "Oh I like Johnny so he is going" or "I'm the state Rep i want to play this event so I'm taking the spot"
Let all that want a chance go play for the spot.

I agree with you for DQing said player. While you proablly shouldn't let them play He shoulda know the rules. Also the 3rd player that was at the meeting shoulda said soemthing to this player.

johnbiscoe
Aug 17 2010, 10:31 AM
State rep can dole out that spot however he/she sees fit. We do it with a non-sanctioned event in VA, and there are other reps who merely bestow the spot onto some fortunate soul with no competition at all, sanctioned or not.

IMHO, giving that latitude to the state reps is EXACTLY the way it should be.

at this point state coordinators are strongly encouraged by usdgc to award it through competition of some sort.

md21954
Aug 17 2010, 10:46 AM
at this point state coordinators are strongly encouraged by usdgc to award it through competition of some sort.

you should have rewarded the VA spot to the chili pepper eating contest winner. i think a lot more peppers might have gone down (and come back up).

veganray
Aug 17 2010, 02:06 PM
you should have rewarded the VA spot to the chili pepper eating contest winner.

I endorse this plan.

the_kid
Aug 17 2010, 03:04 PM
Sorry to say it, but 804.01 A clearly states that all players are responsible for following what is stated in the players' meeting. Yes, the rule should have been printed on the sheet gien to all the players prior to tee off, but it was covered in the meeting, which the individual decided to miss for whatever reason.



Tell that to a top touring Pro who threw around a Mando because it wasn't in the rules sheet! It was mentioned at the Player's meeting but luckily for him he was staying with the TD and worked his magic in order to not be penalized while others who did the same thing were.

the_kid
Aug 17 2010, 03:24 PM
This statement is 100% correct for states that have not developed set qualification methods.

Even though Cali is classified as two states.....

johnrock
Aug 17 2010, 04:12 PM
Tell that to a top touring Pro who threw around a Mando because it wasn't in the rules sheet! It was mentioned at the Player's meeting but luckily for him he was staying with the TD and worked his magic in order to not be penalized while others who did the same thing were.

Careful now. You better double check your facts as to who was the TD at said event. You don't want to place blame on the wrong individual.

the_kid
Aug 18 2010, 12:39 PM
I remember who the TD was and that decision along with the distance to the event is why I haven't been back.

All I know is that 2 strokes almost kept me out of the skins match...

johnrock
Aug 18 2010, 02:28 PM
I thought I remember seeing their RV in my yard that weekend...

eupher61
Aug 18 2010, 04:11 PM
Sorry, Jerry, can't possibly agree with you. The Players' Meeting is the place for information to be disseminated. (from the PDGA rulebook...)The layer in question missed it. Period. That's his fault.

Since the guy shouldn't have been playing to begin with, he has little room to gripe.

The qualifier can be whatever format the sponsoring group decides it will be.
What better way than head-to-head? Some states ask for interested volunteers, then pick from that list. Which is better?





Sorry I have to side with the player here.

You gave them a rule sheet that did not have the rule in question on it. You let them in late, knowing they had missed the player's meeting (that's on you not the player) and thereby hadn't heard the rule. How can they reasonably be expected to follow it.

From my perspective you should have given the player a warning, explained the rule (which it appears would have been their very first time hearing it) and then penalized them after that.

JerryChesterson
Aug 18 2010, 05:42 PM
Sorry, Jerry, can't possibly agree with you. The Players' Meeting is the place for information to be disseminated. (from the PDGA rulebook...)The layer in question missed it. Period. That's his fault.

Where is the outrage that the TD didn't have it on the rules sheet. I'm sorry but I have a higher standard. If you have a rule, it should be on the rules sheet. Not doing so directly leads to this type of incident. Of course the player has responsiblity too, but in my opinion this issue could have been 100% avoidable if the rule was on the rules sheet.

james_mccaine
Aug 18 2010, 07:25 PM
Sure, it should have been on the rules sheet, but what happens when a TD remembers something the morning of? Well, they state it at the player's meeting. That way, players can note it on their rules sheet or in their head. Thus the requirement to be at the player's meeting. It is the only plausible time for such notifications (in shotgun starts).

On a related note, player's meeting are not as effective as they should be. I suspect it is because TDs over the years use the meeting for too many things and water them down. Some TDs are known to ramble on about next to nothing for twenty minutes. Over time, people either stop attending or stop paying attention, or can't pay attention as others have stopped paying attention. TDs should make an effort to streamline them down to must-know things. Brevity and substance in a TD is a good quality.

jflick
Aug 18 2010, 11:03 PM
Where is the outrage that the TD didn't have it on the rules sheet. I'm sorry but I have a higher standard. If you have a rule, it should be on the rules sheet. Not doing so directly leads to this type of incident. Of course the player has responsiblity too, but in my opinion this issue could have been 100% avoidable if the rule was on the rules sheet.

Would it really have been 100 % avoidable? What is the likelyhood that the player in question even looked at the rules considering that he was late and probably rushed. Also, what if it was something that was brought up by the owners after the rules had been printed off? I agree that the player should have been DQ'd.

JerryChesterson
Aug 19 2010, 10:09 AM
Would it really have been 100 % avoidable? What is the likelyhood that the player in question even looked at the rules considering that he was late and probably rushed.
100% avoidable probably the wrong choice of words. It would have been 100% on the player and there can be no questions or complaining if its on the rules sheet.

Also, what if it was something that was brought up by the owners after the rules had been printed off?
I don't really see the relevance here. That wasn't what happend so that isn't applicable here.


NOT PUTTING RULES ON THE RULES SHEET LEAVES OPEN THIS ISSUE. PUTTING IT ON THE RULES SHEET ELIMINATES THE TD FROM ANY RESPONSIBILITY.

I must work get the whole "players meeting" rule changed. 90% of the time I can't even hear the TD at a players meeting or I can't understand them. Why rely on a spoken word which can easily not be heard, is open to more interpretation, and can't be proven when it is just as easy to put it on a rules sheet. This is SOP in the ball golf world.

davidsauls
Aug 19 2010, 10:36 AM
Heck, I've been to tournaments where there wasn't a rules sheet at all---the players meeting was it.

Since, even with a rules sheet, there are any number of reasons rules might need to be added, changed, or clarified at the last minute, I support enforcement of the rule that players are reponsible for what's said in the players' meeting.

krazyeye
Aug 19 2010, 11:21 AM
Brevity and substance in a TD is a good quality.

Unfortunately it is also a rare quality.

johnrock
Aug 19 2010, 11:44 AM
100% avoidable probably the wrong choice of words. It would have been 100% on the player and there can be no questions or complaining if its on the rules sheet.


I don't really see the relevance here. That wasn't what happend so that isn't applicable here.


NOT PUTTING RULES ON THE RULES SHEET LEAVES OPEN THIS ISSUE. PUTTING IT ON THE RULES SHEET ELIMINATES THE TD FROM ANY RESPONSIBILITY.

I must work get the whole "players meeting" rule changed. 90% of the time I can't even hear the TD at a players meeting or I can't understand them. Why rely on a spoken word which can easily not be heard, is open to more interpretation, and can't be proven when it is just as easy to put it on a rules sheet. This is SOP in the ball golf world.

And just like in DG, even with rules written and posted for EVERYONE to see and read, some players still won't abide.

DShelton
Aug 19 2010, 07:37 PM
Tell that to a top touring Pro who threw around a Mando because it wasn't in the rules sheet! It was mentioned at the Player's meeting but luckily for him he was staying with the TD and worked his magic in order to not be penalized while others who did the same thing were.

Then that is a pro that knows how to sweet talk a TD into bending the rules for him. Here's the rule:

A. Rules governing special conditions that may exist on the course shall be clearly defined and disseminated to all players prior to the start of the tournament. All special conditions shall be covered in the players' meeting. Each player is responsible for adhering to all points covered in the player's meeting.

As you can see, it says EVERYTHING is to be covered in the players' meeting and missing it does not save the player if he breaks one of the explained rules. To be honest, I don't know how it should be handled if it's on the rule sheet but not mentioned in the meeting, but in the situation you outlined, the pro was allowed to break the rules while others weren't.

the_kid
Aug 19 2010, 11:38 PM
Then that is a pro that knows how to sweet talk a TD into bending the rules for him. Here's the rule:



As you can see, it says EVERYTHING is to be covered in the players' meeting and missing it does not save the player if he breaks one of the explained rules. To be honest, I don't know how it should be handled if it's on the rule sheet but not mentioned in the meeting, but in the situation you outlined, the pro was allowed to break the rules while others weren't.


EggZactly

go18under
Aug 22 2010, 10:50 AM
Denny is a great ambassador for our sport....his integrity and passion are not in question, just his judgement. People make mistakes, and the biggest mistake I saw was, being too nice and letting the players register late.

That alone is enough to give that DQ'd player the benefit of the doubt. What is the difference in..."I didn't know it started at 10am"......and "I didn't know I wasn't supposed to go in the water"....

Denny, why did you stand strong on one decision and not the other?

That should be the question from the folks calling you "God".........an honest, humble apology, and compassion to people's opinions is all you can provide.....but the DQ'd player does have a valid point.....once one rule is bent, you might as well bend them all....

I hope everybody learns a lesson from this, and sticks to the rules that are pre-determined.....

That's what this forum is for....feedback, opinions, and situations that might arise....

Good luck to all the TD's....it's a tough gig:).....and it doesn't pay to well either...lol

DShelton
Aug 22 2010, 01:28 PM
That alone is enough to give that DQ'd player the benefit of the doubt. What is the difference in..."I didn't know it started at 10am"......and "I didn't know I wasn't supposed to go in the water"....

Denny, why did you stand strong on one decision and not the other?

Probably because the property owner had told him to not allow players in the ponds. Usually, if you go against what the property owners want, they will pull the course very quickly. That alone should be enough. Oh and it would cost the TD well over $100,000 ($1000,000 + the labor to replace the liner) if he allowed someone in the ponds. That might be chicken feed to you, but to the rest of us it is a substantial amount.

davidsauls
Aug 23 2010, 09:25 AM
....once one rule is bent, you might as well bend them all....



Perhaps. But perhaps all rules aren't equivalent.

The water rule was a playing rule and a course owner's requirement. Waiving a playing rule for one player while others abide by it makes the competition unfair. And, as posted above, perhaps affects the availability of the course for everyone in the future.

On the other hand, TDs are often compassionate and will allow late arriving players to play if they can. Perhaps those players gain a competitive advantage by not waking up as early and busting their butts to sign up on time, but it's a pretty slight advantage. Meanwhile, the event is enhanced a little by the higher turnout.

It's good practice to stick by both rules. For the TD's sanity, if nothing else. Allow a late registrant this year, you've got 5 next year and 15 the year after. But it's not necessariliy the same thing as waiving a playing rule.

listen2bob
Aug 23 2010, 10:40 AM
FYI it wasnt just a rule for this tourney, it is a rule for the course at all times. The water management district was kind enough to allow us to install the course with this very specific requirement (no swimming due to the liners). This rule has been covered in every single tourney round ever played on the course and is common knowledge to any player that has played there. It is unfortunate that he missed the mandatory players meeting.

cgkdisc
Aug 25 2010, 03:41 PM
Sort of puts this situation in perspective in terms of how we handle being late (many of us have done similar things in letting late players register/play) versus in ball golf. And Furyk wasn't even late for for the event but a precursor event.
http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2010/08/jim-furyk-dqd-at-barclays-for-missing-proam-tee-time.html

MTL21676
Aug 27 2010, 12:37 PM
I've ran many tourrnaments and probably played in 20 for every 1 event I've ran.

First off, this is 100% the player's fault. Anything covered in the player's meeting is the responsibility of the player to know.

Yes, you should have included it on the sheet. There is no doubt about that. Hopefully you in the future will be more aware of this and correct the sheet to avoid things like this.

But in the end, this is on the player. DQing, when needed, needs to happen more in this sport b/c TD's NEVER stick by their guns.

johnrock
Aug 27 2010, 01:57 PM
I've ran many tourrnaments and probably played in 20 for every 1 event I've ran.

First off, this is 100% the player's fault. Anything covered in the player's meeting is the responsibility of the player to know.

Yes, you should have included it on the sheet. There is no doubt about that. Hopefully you in the future will be more aware of this and correct the sheet to avoid things like this.

But in the end, this is on the player. DQing, when needed, needs to happen more in this sport b/c TD's NEVER stick by their guns.

Don't group all TD's in the same bag. Some have a sack and will swing that sack around to put down nonsense.