I have a question about disc alteration. A guy i know is sanding the outer top of the flight plate to create "surface technology" like the ninja. Now i argued with him about the rules and he insists its " gray area" because it says its ok to moderately sand nicks and scuffs and whos to say what moderate is. i totally think the sanding of his discs is illegal. what would the rule be here? please help me make him understand what he is doing is illegal
Thanks
-Jesse

He could accomplish the same thing by practicing his upside down slider in the parking lot. I do a lot of practicing my upshots in the street when I want to break in new putters.

please help me make him understand what he is doing is illegal
Thanks
-Jesse


If your friend can read, he should be able to understand this:


802.01C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal.


If you don't have your own rule book to show him, you could print this section of the rules from this website.

If your friend can read, he should be able to understand this:


802.01C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal.


If you don't have your own rule book to show him, you could print this section of the rules from this website.

Problem there is that the terms "moderate" & "excessively" are subjective.

By that logic you could argue that a player who intentionally throws a disc against a tree or wall to break it in is making a post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics.

IMO, if someone wants to break in a disc by throwing it against a tree, that is OK with me, because a disc hitting a tree is an expected outcome of using a disc to play disc golf.

Sanding a disc to simulate said wear and tear is not OK with me.

re: objectivity of moderate vs excessive sanding - ALL excessive sanding is illegal, and the only type of moderate sanding that is allowed is to smooth molding imperfections or scrape mark.

Applying ANY sanding to a disc, other than to smooth molding imperfections, which includes flashing, would, IMO, be illegal, and they way I read it, that is what being done here.

yea what he said.^^^^^^^^^^

If you throw the disc once upside down in the parking lot, you could then moderately sand it to remove the scrape marks. There is no rule against practicing your upside down slider in the parking lot. :D

re: objectivity of moderate vs excessive sanding - ALL excessive sanding is illegal, and the only type of moderate sanding that is allowed is to smooth molding imperfections or scrape mark.

Applying ANY sanding to a disc, other than to smooth molding imperfections, which includes flashing, would, IMO, be illegal, and they way I read it, that is what being done here.


did you find that in the rule book or is this subjective?

Rule 802.01 C:

Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their
original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear
from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding
imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a
material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.

reads subjective to me.

It is subjective. Too many rules are. Like was said if one can read comman sense and ethics would be what is required to understand the intent of the rule.

thanks for all the input. apparently it doesn't matter what i say or anyone says he still argues that whos to say what excessive is and whos to say what moderately sanding is. He says until the rule says you cannot put sandpaper to a disc, he is not breaking the rules. ugh

If he is just roughing up the flight plate, I'd agree with him.

But the answer to "who's to say?" is the TD. If you don't raise it with the TD it is a non-issue.

are we as disc throwers achieving the velocities neccesarry to benifit from dimple technology.
the golf ball is traveling much faster and probably turning faster and is a globular shape.
the golf ball doesnt have a wing for lift.
if the player doesnt consider installing micro texture on a disc an after market alteration the player is mistaken.

are we as disc throwers achieving the velocities neccesarry to benifit from dimple technology. The answer to that is "Yes." I've thrown same weight, same plastic Raging Inferno Ultra Lights DT and not DT and the difference is amazing. My wife sees a big difference too.

what kind of differences do each of you experience?
if greater control?
if greater distance?
if greater accuracy?

Better control is what I noticed. The DTs were not nearly as flippy. I only took a few throws with each the day KVN was selling them at our tournament.

Diana does not have the skills to judge control but she got her first 300+ foot throw ever with a DT. She was not getting that distance with the non-DT RIULs.

This was the year they first started running the Nike plastic, whenever that was.

802.01C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics.
This. Regardless of the rest.

reads subjective to me.

This rule is only subjective if you are looking for reasons to justify altering discs to gain a perceived advantage. The rule is worded clearly, and sets up a simple rule with two exceptions. Anything beyond these two exceptions is illegal, by the rule. According to the rule book, any post-production modification of the disc is illegal, unless the modification is a result of "wear and tear" during play. You are also allowed to sand the disc if there is a molding imperfection (such as flashing) or to smooth marks that are a result of play. Any other modification is illegal.

To the original poster. I would side-step the "excessive" argument and argue that he is modifying the disc to alter the flight characteristics, not to fix imperfections as a result of play or molding (e.g. - returning it to its original flight characteristics).

Btw, I would also argue that taking your disc to a parking lot and throwing it over and over again at the concrete is an intentional post-production modification that should fall outside the scope of the rules. This of course is completely unenforceable.

the rule is only subjective because it uses subjective wording. you can interpret it anyway you wish. it still reads subjective. does the rule really specify flashing? who determines what is or isn't a molding imperfection? what is a scrape mark and how much is "excessive" to remove it?

fwiw, i've never sanded a disc. i'm just pointing out that the rule is entirely subjective and agree that it is unenforceable.

If someone is modifying a disc to make it less like it was when it was brand new, that is against the rules, regardless of the degree of sanding. The only exception to this is if said modification occurs as a result of use in play ("inevitable wear and tear from usage during play").

It is difficult/impossible to make a judgment after the fact as to how a disc got to its current state, but the thread started with someone clearly making a post-production modification which alters the original flight characteristics, and that is, IMO, expressly against the Rules.

If someone is modifying a disc to make it less like it was when it was brand new, that is against the rules, regardless of the degree of sanding. The only exception to this is if said modification occurs as a result of use in play ("inevitable wear and tear from usage during play").

are you reading the same rule book you quoted earlier?

"This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear
from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding
imperfections or scrape marks. "

This rule is only subjective if you are looking for reasons to justify altering discs to gain a perceived advantage.

This bears repeating. See the definition of "confirmation bias".

802.01C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal.

are you reading the same rule book you quoted earlier?

"This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear
from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding
imperfections or scrape marks. "

Yes, but I guess my use of a quasi-double negative added some cloudiness to what I was trying to say.

Yes, Mr. BTL,
Just like so many others have stated --- your "friend" now has an illegal disc. We have a rule for that.

But, I contend that:
a. Nobody gives a rip. That rule may have had some meaning in days gone by, but when you "alter" a disc --- to throw like yet another disc (already available on the market) then WHAT advantage is gained?
b. It is essentially un-enforcable --- save for the fact that we can always rat out our friends to the TD. But, then the TD has no real way of assessing how the disc became "altered". No penalty for carrying a scuffed-up disc.
c. This rule creates a nice round of discussion every few months, but IMHO is taking up good space in the rule book. It has no real value if it never results in a penalty.

So, sand away baby. I won't tell the TD. The "store-bought" Nuke or Katana will beat your workshop version everytime.

Ron

Oh, and while we are at it------------ don't let anyone tell you that the stupid little manufacture tag or price sticker makes the disc "illegal". They have mis-read or mis-understood the notes about paint alteration (whatever the heck that is??) and unique marking.

But, I contend that:

b. It is essentially un-enforcable --- save for the fact that we can always rat out our friends to the TD. But, then the TD has no real way of assessing how the disc became "altered". No penalty for carrying a scuffed-up disc.


I realize that TDs are not trained in law enforcement procedures, but the easiest way to find out if a player altered the disc to change its flight characteristics is to ask him. "Jake, why is the top of your disc all scuffed up like that?" I sanded it. "Oh, why did you do that?" If the scuffer does not believe he is breaking any rule, he would have no reason to lie. If he does believe he is breaking the rule, he still might tell the truth. Not all rule breakers breakers are also liars.

Oh, and while we are at it------------ don't let anyone tell you that the stupid little manufacture tag or price sticker makes the disc "illegal". They have mis-read or mis-understood the notes about paint alteration (whatever the heck that is??) and unique marking.

i would imagine the pricetag or weight sticker has detectable thickness... just remove the thing, simple

802.01 Discs Used in Play
F. All discs used in play, except mini
marker discs, must be uniquely marked
in ink or pigment-based marking which
has no detectable thickness. A player shall
receive a warning for the fi rst instance of
throwing an unmarked disc if observed
by two or more players of the group or an
offi cial. After the warning has been given,
each subsequent throw by the player with
an unmarked disc shall incur one penalty
throw if observed by two or more players
of the group or an official.

to ishkatbible:

The rule you are quoting only refers to items that make the disc unique, and the detectable thickness clause refers to ink or pigment based markings. A sticker placed on the disc satisfies neither of these requirements, and therefore is not regulated by this rule.

to ishkatbible:

The rule you are quoting only refers to items that make the disc unique, and the detectable thickness clause refers to ink or pigment based markings. A sticker placed on the disc satisfies neither of these requirements, and therefore is not regulated by this rule.

So I could glue a golf ball to the top my disc, as it also satisfies (by your interpretation) neither of the requirements?

to ishkatbible:

The rule you are quoting only refers to items that make the disc unique, and the detectable thickness clause refers to ink or pigment based markings. A sticker placed on the disc satisfies neither of these requirements, and therefore is not regulated by this rule.

Curt,
You said it so well.

Vegan Ray,
The notion that a sticker is not a pigment-based marking is not an interpretation --- it is a fact. You get bonus points for finding other things that are also not pigment-based markings. Making a list of things that are also not in the rules is fun. Got any more?

Bruce,
Thou hast found a hole in one of my "contentions". I agree that if Freddie Fliphyzer tells on his personal self by confessing of his excessive sanding of said disc ------ then he is truly in possession of the dreaded illegal disc. So..... I will revise my "contention" to an "intention" ;

It is my intention that I, as a TD, will personally never ask Freddie Fliphyzer about his disc alteration practices --I work hard to create a level playing field, but, don't plan on a QandA with every player to check on what torture they have applied to their discs.

And that I, as a player, continue to give NotARip if he does desire to torture his discs. His advantage is only in his mind.

As a side note; some may agree that this rule has an awkward side. To single out Freddie because he used 60 grit sandpaper on his disc------- and to give his cousin, Franci Fliphyzer, an out because she scrubbed her disc on acceptable asphalt is just -- awkward. :)

And again -- here is my point ---- this rule has very little real-life use. It can be removed and it won't change much about the game at all. Maybe change nothing. It wouldn't be missed.

Thanks,
Ron

Is it any different than these clowns who tape lights to their discs for glow golf? They won't allow me to tape my 22ft pole saw to my putter because I can't release the putter from the saw. They never release their taped light from their drivers. I just like to argue.

the rule is only subjective because it uses subjective wording. you can interpret it anyway you wish. it still reads subjective. does the rule really specify flashing? who determines what is or isn't a molding imperfection? what is a scrape mark and how much is "excessive" to remove it?.

Flashing isn't part of the mold; It's actually outside of the mold, technically. It's part of the process of making the disc. As a result, removing flashing isn't actually changing the flight characteristics of the molded disc.

Flashing isn't part of the mold; It's actually outside of the mold, technically. It's part of the process of making the disc. As a result, removing flashing isn't actually changing the flight characteristics of the molded disc.

Your linguistic gymnastics are twisted & wrong, but it doesn't make any difference, as that particular modification - the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections - is specifically allowed for in the rule, whether or not it alters the original flight characteristics of the disc.

Oh, and while we are at it------------ don't let anyone tell you that the stupid little manufacture tag or price sticker makes the disc "illegal". They have mis-read or mis-understood the notes about paint alteration (whatever the heck that is??) and unique marking.


I think if we ask the PDGA - the "stupid little tag / sticker" does make the disc illegal.

I am pretty sure I am, also, not allowed to put my 5"x5" sticker of the Smurfs' on the top, or bottom, of my disc.

Maybe a check of the rule book is at hand?

What about removal of hotstamps from discs? Is this illegal or not?

I know many players who do it. I don't think it changes the flight characteristics at all so should be ok but just thought I would get clarification.

What about removal of hotstamps from discs? Is this illegal or not?

I know many players who do it. I don't think it changes the flight characteristics at all so should be ok but just thought I would get clarification.

not that i know the actual ruling on this...

i can't see how it can possibly make them illegal. simply since there are stock stamps and tournament stamps put on the same discs. what would make one illegal and the other legal? that and all the dyes out there would then be illegal, unless they were never stamped in the first place.

not that i know the actual ruling on this...

i can't see how it can possibly make them illegal. simply since there are stock stamps and tournament stamps put on the same discs. what would make one illegal and the other legal? that and all the dyes out there would then be illegal, unless they were never stamped in the first place.

I'd be screwed. I take my hot stamps off in order to dye. Also even if I dont dye them so no one can club of me. They dont know what I am throwing. Alot of times people will look at what others are throwing on said hole and choose the same to throw their shot with. Unless you know my bag and discs you wont know what I am throwing

I'd be screwed. I take my hot stamps off in order to dye. Also even if I dont dye them so no one can club of me. They dont know what I am throwing. Alot of times people will look at what others are throwing on said hole and choose the same to throw their shot with. Unless you know my bag and discs you wont know what I am throwing

Are you really that hyper competitive and paranoid that you are worried about your opponent knowing what you are throwing?

If I'm playing a course I know well with someone who doesn't know the course, even in a tournament, I'll point out lines, talk about what most people throw, and generally be a good ambassador for the course.

Are you really that hyper competitive and paranoid that you are worried about your opponent knowing what you are throwing?

If I'm playing a course I know well with someone who doesn't know the course, even in a tournament, I'll point out lines, talk about what most people throw, and generally be a good ambassador for the course.

Naw not paranoid. I play alot in state agaisnt instaters so most know the courses we are on. I show people the lay of land if they are new. But probally not going to give them shot ideas or advise on what they should throw. We are after all competeing not my fault they haven't seen the course. If I am at a course I don't know I make sure to get there early enough to at least walk the course so I sorta know it.

I have had people look at what i am throwing and switch their disc several times so it's just something I have done.

If I'm playing a course I know well with someone who doesn't know the course, even in a tournament, I'll point out lines, talk about what most people throw, and generally be a good ambassador for the course.

This is also known as "Good Sportsmanship".

This is also known as "Good Sportsmanship".

What's funny is that in ball golf, asking for advice is a two stroke penalty...

8-1. Advice

During a stipulated round, (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#StipulatedRound) a player must not:

(a) give advice (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Advice) to anyone in the competition playing on the course (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course) other than his partner (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Partner), or
(b) ask for advice (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Advice) from anyone other than his partner (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Partner) or either of their caddies (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Caddie).


Penalty for Breach of Rule:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.



Advice includes things like "was that a 7-iron?" Might be the most broken rule in casual rounds...

Might be one of the nice differences between stick golf and disc golf. More towards the 'spirit of the game' aspect of Ultimate.

Not that it needs to be required, but I also like the good ambassador approach.

I'd be screwed. I take my hot stamps off in order to dye. Also even if I dont dye them so no one can club of me. They dont know what I am throwing. Alot of times people will look at what others are throwing on said hole and choose the same to throw their shot with. Unless you know my bag and discs you wont know what I am throwing

If you use asotone to take off your hot stamp....when you do, there is a thin film of coating that is also removed from the disc......look at it the next time you do it.....I had no idea until our dyefather brought it to my attention....

If you use asotone to take off your hot stamp....

I think you mean acetone:

http://www.tradenote.net/images/users/000/181/539/products_images/Acetone.jpg