We are finally getting through the first production run of the Ninja after several months of tooling and polymer prototyping.
It takes quite a bit of work to get a disc this fast with this long of wing to fly stable and we think we've done it!
The NINJA is a very High Speed Max Distance Driver with lots of glide and is one of the longest flying discs ever made.
It is a long winged slightly under stable driver at high speeds with a smooth continuous dome and relatively low profile.
Needless to say its extremely fast and has lots of glide and carry!

We are using a rough finish on the leading edge of the mold (Surface technology) to reduce drag and increase lift.
By using drag reducing technology on the discs you will maintain their initial launch velocity through out most of the flight. Combine the surface technology with the massively gyroscopic wing, (which will allow the disc to spin longer) and you have the formula for some REALLY REALLY long throws.

The NINJA is a perfectly stable flying disc at 300-350 feet.
The 2.8CM wing is the longest on the market (apparently too long for PDGA play) so the NINJA will not be approved for PDGA play.
Our goal with the NINJA was to make the longest flying disc on the market.
A disc that will give players with 300 distance a chance to throw 400 feet.
BOOOOOYAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Down the road we will produce some lighter weight versions in more of an "S" or pro line plastic that should help players that only have 200-250 distance achieve throws of over 300 feet.



This FIRST RUN of NINJAS is in a translucent/opaque Evolution Plastic (the flexible Nike plastic blended with a much stiffer Urethane) and has a nice tacky feel, a fairly firm rim and moderately flexible flight plate.
Lots of bright colors including Pink, Orange, Yellow, White and Blue.
Weight range is from 174g-184g.
Since the disc is not intended for pdga play we can run them as heavy as we like.
Because of the geometry of the disc ( long wing - thin flight plate) a 184 gram Ninja doesnt feel or fly much different than 174g.
My longest throw (548 feet) was with a pink (181g) 2 weekends ago at the Crystal lake course just north of Chicago.

If it isn't intended for PDGA play what is the point?

To sell it. PDGA members make up maybe 5% of total disc buyers.

If it isn't intended for PDGA play what is the point?.
The point is to push the envelop on how far a disc can fly.
Players with less power need all the help they can get keeping up with those who can out drive them every hole.

Our market research shows over 99% of the people who play disc golf do not play pdga events?

80% do not play any kind of organized event at all.
The Majority of people who play disc golf play for fun or friendly competition with their friends.
This disc is intended for these players or for players that just want to see how far then can throw.


We can (and will) eventually make a similar disc that is within the rules, but it probably wont be until after the first of next year.
We currently have as many as 12 new discs we will be releasing over the next year, including the new Ninja top ( with surface technology) on the Apache wing and on the Sabre Wing.

Our next release (in about a month) will be a mid-range between the Element and Warrior called The SCOUT!
Depending on the stability we made add surface technology to the leading 1/2" of the Scout.

A questionnaire on the ninja will be available on our website after the release.
Those who participate will be eligible to win prizes including, lessons with me or Nikko, custom stamped discs and minis, Golf bags, Bulls-Eyes Training baskets and Titan Pro-24 baskets.

Feel free to share your opinions on the disc or our decision to release a non pdga approved disc once you have thrown it.

Immense abuse potential, meet shockingly lax PDGA enforcement.
Shockingly lax PDGA enforcement, meet immense abuse potential.

.
Our market research shows over 99% of the people who play disc golf do not play pdga events?

80% do not play any kind of organized event at all.
The Majority of people who play disc golf play for fun or friendly competition with their friends.
This disc is intended for these players or for players that just want to see how far then can throw.

A questionnaire on the ninja will be available on our website after the release.
Those who participate will be eligible to win prizes including, lessons with me or Nikko, custom stamped discs and minis, Golf bags, Bulls-Eyes Training baskets and Titan Pro-24 baskets.

Feel free to share your opinions on the disc or our decision to release a non pdga approved disc once you have thrown it.

I will take your word for it but those numbers blow my mind. I am sure I will buy one just to throw for fun. I honestly don't think any of the guys I know would intentionally throw an illeagle disc in competition.

thats a bummer about the PDGA :(

I will take your word for it but those numbers blow my mind. I am sure I will buy one just to throw for fun. I honestly don't think any of the guys I know would intentionally throw an illeagle disc in competition.
Hopefully not that is why we are making it perfectly clear this disc is not intended for pdga play.

Immense abuse potential, meet shockingly lax PDGA enforcement.
Shockingly lax PDGA enforcement, meet immense abuse potential.

I would be really surprised if someone actually managed to gain a real advantage by throwing this disc in a tournament. In fact, with the exception of throwing over-weight discs, I have a hard time imagine anyone taking any strokes off their game by throwing illegal plastic.

Here's my $.02 on this subject. Gateway knowingly making a disc that is not PDGA approved would be like someone making a basketball with a remote control on it so you can control it to make it go in the basket everytime. Great...it goes in the basket and it's fun to play with, but what good is it if you can't use it in the NBA. The same with baseball... What if you made a baseball that flew 200mph but you couldn't use it in the MLB. Sure it would be fun to throw around with the guys but to not use professionaly?!?!?! I don't think I'll ever buy a Ninja. I would like it too much outside of the realm of PDGA events and would want to play with it in the tourney. I don't know about any one else's local scene but about 80% of disc golfers in my area are frequent PDGA event players, and they make up the majority of disc sales. I think this is a step in the wrong direction on Gateway's (Dave's) part, but then again I'm not a major disc manufacturer. I wish the best to Dave Mac and I hope he proves me wrong on sales and everything else. I'll tell you this. He's hit the nail on the head with their putters and even mids if you ask me!!! You can't go wrong with Gateway putters and mids!!!

Haven't I told you a million times not to exaggerate...lol....it would actually be like making a basketball slightly smaller than legal size so that you get more baskets...not having a remote in it....if Gateway put a RC device on a disc then it would be like your reference.
I actually think this will come out with a slightly smaller rim once it gets retooled. I have several discs that are now PDGA illegal discs...so...yeah it may just work out as a preliminary test of something better to come....who cares if its illegal...I still want to throw it.

Our market research shows over 99% of the people who play disc golf do not play pdga events?

80% do not play any kind of organized event at all.

The tournament players also buy the lion's share of the discs. A very large number of the casual players are 1 disc wonders or just borrow discs.

Add to that the difficulty that most people have throwing even a 2.5cm wing and expand it out to 2.8, and I'd imagine the market becomes very small.

That being said, you've doing the experiment and putting your money where your mouth is, and we can see if it sells well in practice. Good luck.

Market this correctly to the casual rec player and sales will quickly jump. Plus with no one checking to see if discs are legal or illegal you might see several of these discs used in competition anyway. Look how long it took before people found out the Voodoo was illegal simply because of some paperwork not being turned in. Will the Ninja have an engraving that specifically states that its not PDGA approved or will it just be on the hot stamp?

Will the Ninja have an engraving that specifically states that its not PDGA approved or will it just be on the hot stamp?

Its just on the hot stamp.. The disc if very fun to throw.. Hyzer release @ 75% and it goes flat then turns over with a hyzer finish. Out of 90 people I have shown this disc to 70 of them wanted one.. It is extremity fast and is fun to show off to people.

This disc is way different looking than any other disc. Even if someone removed the hot stamp you are gonna get.. "What was that" after thrown. As far as the PDGA goes.. how many people throw disc with a crack, No name, boiled, over weight, illegal disc? I would say not that many.. Not enough to matter. If people what to cheat they are going to. Until TD's have a better way to regulate this its gonna be up to the players to make that call during play.

-Chris Adams

I don't know about any one else's local scene but about 80% of disc golfers in my area are frequent PDGA event players, and they make up the majority of disc sales. I think this is a step in the wrong direction on Gateway's (Dave's) part, but then again I'm not a major disc manufacturer. I wish the best to Dave Mac and I hope he proves me wrong on sales and everything else. I'll tell you this. He's hit the nail on the head with their putters and even mids if you ask me!!! You can't go wrong with Gateway putters and mids!!!
Hey George (discinmusician),
I can understand that YOU might be more excited about a new Gateway driver that IS PDGA approved because you play in pdga events.
As Dave Dick mentioned we will probably make a pdga legal version of the ninja at some point down the road,,,maybe sooner.
We have plans to release as many as 20 new discs over the next 2 years with 18 of them well within the specs for pdga play.
We wanted to try something different to see if there is a market for a longer flying disc that is not pdga approved. Our initial response has been overwhelmingly positive from those who have thrown the disc,,,especially from guys with 300 power. Players who can control discs with just 250-300 power have been getting distances up to 20-30% farther.
Adding 60 plus feet to you throw means a lot to players who just don't have the strength to throw really far..

I'm a little confused about your post stating 80% of your area players are pdga members and MOST of the sales in your area are from these players.

The entire state of Alabama only has 151 pdga members so my guess is you may be a bit off in your estimation for Alabama sales.

Here in St Louis we have 460 club members, maybe 40 of those are also PDGA members,,,but nearly 10,000 different people that will play disc golf here this year on our 26 area courses ( this is an average of 400 unique players to each course, Jb for Example probably has 2000 unique players alone)
This adds up to less than 5% of the people in our city are part of a club or organization and among these 5% less than 10% play Pdga events.
Last year over 30,000 discs were sold through our 60 plus local retailers of discs.
If each pdga player bought or prized out 25 discs in local events by these numbers only 3% of the total sales went to those who were going to use them in pdga events.

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/icons/icon1.gif NINJA is ready to release ( not intended for PDGA play)


<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1; COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->We are finally getting through the first production run of the Ninja after several months of tooling and polymer prototyping.

Is it appropriate to use the PDGA D-Board to promote a disc not intended to meet PDGA standards?

Is it appropriate to use the PDGA D-Board to promote a disc not intended to meet PDGA standards?

Is his membership current?

+1 for Chuck's comment. Not sure why this is being promoted on this board, when everybody on here is a PDGA member.

Now, lets say these discs take off in the market. You're not going to just have rec players buying them. PDGA players are going to buy them too, just to mess around with. But lets say that some of these rec players, who are usually playing with only a few discs, decide to play a PDGA sanctioned tournament. Now, how are they to know, unless they read the entire rule book before their very first tourney (unrealistic) that they can possibly be DQ'ed for using their favorite driver because its .2 cm outside the Tech Standards allowable specs. The said players get disqualified, and BOOM, loss of some potential members because they feel they are being limited to what discs they can use, which in turn could make them talk smack about the PDGA. Of course this is all hypothetical but it could definitely happen.

I will give props to Dave Mac for trying to think outside the box, but I think that this could potentially be a step in the wrong direction. Until there is some way to regulate or at least see if people are throwing illegal discs, there will be cheaters. I know that everybody likes to think that the disc golf community as a whole are always honest and would never cheat, but the truth is is that it happens, probably more often than we like to think. Throwing this disc in competition can effectively be compared to corking a bat in baseball, pretty much undetectable until examined closely. Just my .02 on the matter.

B-Mac and Chuck...if I understand correctly this is a manufacturer thread thus they should be able to post about all the stuff they are producing even if it does not meet PDGA specs. or if said specs. are changed so that some discs are deemed illegal after they were approved by the PDGA (i.e. "Turbo Putt"). So yes this is an appropriate place for this thread. It lets people know that there are discs that do not conform but can be thrown in casual rounds to get people excited about disc golf....imagine if Average Joe sees a person throw a driver 500-600 ft...he is like what was that....it peaks interest in the sport and the sport grows...after all isn't that what the PDGA is all about....not just competition but expanding the sport.

Oh and Billy it is not like corking the bat...it is like making the bat slightly longer than legal length.

I have no problems with disc manufacturers pushing the envelope and experimenting, but with a disc like the Ninja where it could easily be mistaken for a PDGA approved disc I have concerns. I believe it was stated that the non-approval status was only in the hotstamp which is easily removed by players (and many do just because they like the clean look of a disc). As a PDGA member and manufacture of PDGA approved discs, Dave should act in good faith and put the non-approval status directly into the mold. It should be a fun time on the card when someone looks at the blank disc and can't tell if it's legal or not. It's not like the turbo putt or the wheel where they are very distinct in appearance.

Of course the inability to tell if it is legal or not is probably part of Dave's reason for doing this. The thread should be read for background: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=27595 It appears that Dave is trying to force the PDGA's hand here (and make a little bit of money while doing so).

The unintended consequence of Dave's action is that I could see the PDGA requiring manufacturer's at some point to put the name of the disc and approval status in the mold instead of allowing it to only be in the hot stamp. Of course he won't want to spend the money to update his molds to do this.

How do players at a "Super Class" event distinguish their discs from those at a regular pDGA event? There are regulations for those discs that the players need to be aware of, and they are not allowed to use certain discs.

Is it appropriate to use the PDGA D-Board to promote a disc not intended to meet PDGA standards?

LOL.... wow?

Not to argue an irrelevant point, but it would be like corking a bat. Think about it, what would be the point of making a bat longer? Nothing st all except being able to have more of the bat covering the strike zone. But why do people cork bats? And the answer is... to be able to hit farther! And what is the point of making the wing on a disc longer? Anyone, anyone? Yes, you are correct! To make a disc fly further!

Ok, off topic rant over, back to talking about a real sport ( just kidding). Dave Mac, I do think that this could be a key to distance, but not in disc golf. Maybe at some point it will be used to set some new world records, who knows. I think the PDGA was afraid of this exact thing happening when they revised the Tech Standards because of the way things were going. A disc like this in the hands of any competitve, higher rated Am or any Open player would make a lot of holes on courses now obsolete.

Ummm...nope..sorry Billy you need to go take some physics classes. The principle is the longer the bat the faster the end of the bat is moving. This means that a longer bat has higher potential energy which translates into longer hits because the speed of the end of the bat is now moving faster than the shorter bat. It is the same reason that the PGA made it illegal to have certain length clubs. Corking lightens the bat which increases the speed of the bat but also decreases the mass. That means you can put the bat on the ball faster but cannot transfer as much energy to the ball because of the loss of that mass. You feel the same principle when shooting your guns. The bigger the cartridge the more powder it holds. Now if you have the same cartridge with the same load and put a 100gr. bullet in one and a 180gr. bullet in the other what happens? The 100gr. bullet travels really fast but has less power when it hits the target than the 180gr. bullet. Long story but it goes to show that having a longer wing is like having a longer bat....if it was a corked bat it would be more like throwing a 135g. disc....which is legal.

Ok Smokem's, you got me on that. I have taken physics classes, but we didn't study get as in depth as to study a single thing like differences in bat lengths. But who really cares about the analogies (sp?) anyway, I would rather not clutter up this thread with a bunch of irrelevant bickering. The point of this is THE DISC IS ILLEGAL! The thing about this board is, you don't see any other company promoting an intentionally illegal disc. Again, I applaud Dave Mac for thinking in a different way, but it shouldn't be marketed towards PDGA members at all unless they get one of these solely for the purpose of throwing it in some way other than a sanctioned tourney.

How do players at a "Super Class" event distinguish their discs from those at a regular pDGA event? There are regulations for those discs that the players need to be aware of, and they are not allowed to use certain discs.
All Super Class discs are approved for PDGA play in any event unless it's 150 (or now 160) Class. And then all approved discs would be subject to the weight limit.

Maybe respond more after Am Worlds.

All Super Class discs are approved for PDGA play in any event unless it's 150 (or now 160) Class. And then all approved discs would be subject to the weight limit.

So it's not too difficult to distinguish which discs may be used for different categories?

good thing I can easily tell if someone is using an Aerobie during a tourney. but I'm going to feel a tad foolish asking to look in peoples bags or asking to see a disc after each throw to make sure someone is using PDGA approved discs now.

seeing both sides of this argument, but something about this is kinda... "funny" ? like..odd kinda funny?

good thing I can easily tell if someone is using an Aerobie during a tourney. but I'm going to feel a tad foolish asking to look in peoples bags or asking to see a disc after each throw to make sure someone is using PDGA approved discs now.

seeing both sides of this argument, but something about this is kinda... "funny" ? like..odd kinda funny?


Why does a disc need to be PDGA approved?????

I don't get it.

It's not like this type of issue hasn't been addressed in similar sports before. Just a few months ago Phil Mickelson was in hot water for using a wedge with illegal square grooves that didn't meet USGA/PGA specs. Once called out by fellow players he stopped using the formerly illegal club. Ball golf stores sell lots of drivers that are too big to meet USGA specs or balls that don't meet specs, and you can play at courses that have GPS units installed on the carts - which is illegal in USGA competitive play.

I think David Mac is spot on about the market - non-PDGA players dwarf PDGA players in number, so the market is significant. Of course, you have to ask yourself, is that rec player going to be able to accurately throw this wide-winged weapon? Probably not, but that doesn't mean Dave can't make a buck or two.

If you suspect a fellow player is using one of these illegal discs in a tournament, how will you know? You have to ask them, and inspect the disc (or have the TD do so if the player objects). Make sure to have your mini-metric ruler handy. Superclass players have to do the same thing, since there are discs that are slightly smaller than Superclass diameter (Whittler, Wham-O 40-mold) that could pass for Superclass if players aren't paying attention. Same for 159.9-class events - at the Japan Open I think players have to have their discs weighed before play and then stamped as approved.

And Chuck - I think your attempt to scare David Mac from discussing his product is a little heavy-handed. He's not actively recommending that players break the rules - he's simply selling a golf disc that can be used in recreational play. Now, I'd prefer it if Dave would produce a long-range understable driver that weighs under 160g, instead of this thing, but that's just me. How 'bout it Dave?

Yeah...I forgot that some shops still sell oversized heads and shafts for regular golf...they also sell illegal balls.

Good luck with that Allan...lol...I have been trying to get Dave to make a nice fast long range driver for 4 years ever since the Diablo DT came out I wanted a more understable version and the closest I got was the Assassin which is understable and ultra long...it just doesn't have enough speed to get that extra D especially on ultra long downhill shots.

I think this disc sounds like fun. Remember that most disc golfers don't care or know about the PDGA, let alone what discs are legal for PDGA play. Just remember not to use it at a sanctioned event, and no harm done.

remember that most pdga tournament disc golfers don't care about the rules, let alone what discs are legal for pdga play.

fixed

fixed

That's another thread and topic entirely! :)

I can't wait to try the NINJA!

SO i got a few in the mail this past week. The disc Is going to be great for Beginner and rec players. Payers who don't care about the "Sanctioned play". I am excited to have a wide rimmed disc that can allow new players to reach holes! Thanks Dave!

Why does a disc need to be PDGA approved?????

Is it legal to throw an Aerobie (or a Ninja) in SN events?

Is it legal to throw an Aerobie (or a Ninja) in SN events?

Nope.......but most players I see at the course don't play tournaments.

remember that most pdga tournament disc golfers don't care about the rules, let alone what discs are legal for pdga play.

I'm going to tune my Ninja until the rim 26mm and legal for PDGA play!

Nope.......but most players I see at the course don't play tournaments.

Yep, and I think thats the point!

Is it legal to throw an Aerobie (or a Ninja) in SN events?
Is there a link to the SN rules for tournament play?

Is there a link to the SN rules for tournament play?



95% of them use the PDGA rules.

Do you mean that 95% of them use PDGA rules, or that they use 95% of the PDGA rules? Or should I say. 95.420 %

Do you mean that 95% of them use PDGA rules, or that they use 95% of the PDGA rules? Or should I say. 95.420 %
Hey Bill is that picture in Carbondale?

Dave,

No, it is a picture of me doing a Constorktion, in front of where I was living when I was going to college, 1981 in West Lafayette, IN.

I did play in Carbondale in, I think, 1984 though.

hahaha 95.420%

very clever... freaking hilarious...

bla bla bla...

LMAO @ Lyle.....dude I believe that falls under an illegal disc because you changed the original configuration...lol.

I love the Ninja for what I do here in Jacksonville NC. The Camp LeJeune main gate is less then a mile from our course. Most of the casual play is from Marines who come out after work to get away from military life. They are all in great athletic shape and love the fact that their athleticism helps them throw discs with some success. The common question I get is " How do you throw so far"?
Because of the Ninja I don't have to go onto all the details that enable me to reach holes. I can put this disc in their hands tell them to throw it flat and the disc does the work for them! Its great! It reminds me why I play this game in the first place. They don't care about the PDGA or anything that has to do with the rules of the game. They just want some thing that will help them reach the pin with out having to pour so much time into learning the game. The Ninja will do that for them better than any other disc i have thrown- thanks Dave for making a great disc!

By now all of our retailers should have the Ninjas in Stock and most seem to be doing pretty well selling them. We have had lots of good feedback so far and of course theres been some "concern" about it not being intended being for PDGA play. ALL in All its been interesting to say the least.


We are going to set up a poll on our website soon to get a good feel on what players think about the NINJA. The poll will cover everything from look, feel, flex, flight, durability and even have some questions about it being NON pdga approved.
Anyone who has Thrown a NINJA will be able to participate and be eligible for prizes.

We will be giving away LOTS of "poll participation" prizes that include a Titan Pro-24, sets of Gateway discs, Backpack bags, NINJAS, custom stamped discs and more.

Thanks to everyone for the support.

The NINJA goes far..........

How Far??

I have had several throws over 500 and its really hard for me to get 500 these days.
These longer throws require quite a bit of height, (40' - 50' high).


What Ive found most successful about the Ninja is when it is smoothed out with slight nose up hyzer about 25' high for a 300' throw (about 60% of my power), it will carry and glide well over 300,,,,sometimes as far as 360'.