davidsauls
Jun 01 2010, 03:16 PM
Here's a question that was asked in a recent tournament, though it never came into play.

The tee on a temporary hole was a rubber pad, marked with flags at the front corners. The morning after a rain, it was rather slick.

A player asked if he would have the option of folding the rubber pad out of the way and teeing off on the dry ground beneath it. He didn't do it, he just asked.

Which left me thinking. You can't build a lie but can you reduce one?

(My other thought was that it would be a bad idea, since players doing so would wear holes in the ground under the pad, making the pad uneven for future players).

Thoughts?

cgkdisc
Jun 01 2010, 03:25 PM
Rubber pads should be firmly anchored so that simply rolling them up isn't possible.

veganray
Jun 01 2010, 04:14 PM
Rubber pads should be firmly anchored so that simply rolling them up isn't possible.

Therefore, they always are firmly anchored and the OP's question is a fantastical flight of fancy and no ruling is necessary (or even possible). :confused:

davidsauls
Jun 01 2010, 04:18 PM
Yes, but in this case it was a temporary situation, and it wasn't.

(The circumstance was that construction has eliminated 2 holes on this particular course, and 2 replacement holes had only been finished, or almost finished, in the week or so prior to the tournament. The pad must have been borrowed because it was pretty tattered. The ground had been mulched with large wood chips, and it probably never occured to the TD that someone might prefer not using the rubber mat and tee off on the chips instead.)

Martin_Bohn
Jun 01 2010, 06:55 PM
ok how about this as an answer then:

803.05
F. A player who purposely damages anything on the course shall receive two penalty
throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The
player may also be disqualified from the tournament, in accordance with Section 3.3 of the Competition Manual.

someone else may consider his actions as detrimental to the condition of the course, since everyone would have had to deal with the same conditions of the initial tee pad in its original condition.....
temporary or not, the course conditions were laid out and should have been approved by the td prior to beginning of play, so one player changing what should be considered a "permanent" tee pad to favor him/herself.... if the player is showing up right before the tournament starts and asks the td to allow him to change something like that, if i was the td, i would say no.....



Yes, but in this case it was a temporary situation, and it wasn't.

(The circumstance was that construction has eliminated 2 holes on this particular course, and 2 replacement holes had only been finished, or almost finished, in the week or so prior to the tournament. The pad must have been borrowed because it was pretty tattered. The ground had been mulched with large wood chips, and it probably never occured to the TD that someone might prefer not using the rubber mat and tee off on the chips instead.)

august
Jun 02 2010, 08:31 AM
I would opine that building a lie includes adding or removing material to improve the surface. Asking permission to move a rubber tee pad out of your way is asking for an unfair competitive advantage.

davidsauls
Jun 02 2010, 08:33 AM
That's a thought. I wouldn't consider it damaging the course, since it would presumably be put back in place. Except the possibility that he causes the ground in the tee area to become more uneven, so putting the pad back in place would leave it in poorer condition than he found it. But maybe that's a stretch.

He could argue that it's like moving any other obstacle to his stance or run-up, since the rubber pad is behind the lie.

It's of interest to me, beyond curiousity, partly because my private course uses carpet tees, most of which is nailed down. Since we don't mark them also with flags, we'd consider the carpets to be the tees. But one day the question may come to me as TD.

krupicka
Jun 02 2010, 08:52 AM
The relevant rule is:
803.02: If a tee pad is provided, all supporting points must be on the pad at the time of release.

That's pretty straight forward. The rubber pad is the provided tee pad; the player must throw from it.

md21954
Jun 02 2010, 09:06 AM
i've seen this done when a rubber mat used for a tee pad becomes sandy and slippery (hole 9 at hawk hollow). one could use 805.03.c (3) if they could get the group to agree that the teepad is player's equipment (for which there is no definition in 800).

Casual Obstacles: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles: casual
water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles,
harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically
designated by the director before the round. Obstacles may not be moved if any part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole. The type of relief a player may obtain is based on the location of the obstacle and is limited as follows: (3) Casual obstacles to a run-up: The player may move the obstacle provided no part of the obstacle is between the lie and the hole.. No other relief is provided.

gotcha
Jun 02 2010, 09:23 AM
802.04 Artificial Devices

A. During a round, a player shall not use any artificial device that may assist in making a
throw, except those devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape,
bandages, gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as knee and ankle braces, etc.). Items used to prevent slipping on the teeing surface are also allowed. A player is specifically prohibited from using any artificial device that changes the position of the disc in the player's hand or artificially lengthens any of the player's throwing levers (fingers, wrist, arm, shoulder, etc.). The use of devices which assist in determining distances over 10 meters , such as range finders and GPS devices are prohibited. Measuring devices such as a tape measure may be carried and used to determine distances 10 meters and less for the purpose of rules enforcement.

krupicka
Jun 02 2010, 09:44 AM
If the rubber tee pad is slippery a player can put down a towel for traction, but convincing a group of players that the tee pad could be considered a player's equipment is preposterous.

davidsauls
Jun 02 2010, 10:09 AM
The relevant rule is:
803.02: If a tee pad is provided, all supporting points must be on the pad at the time of release.

That's pretty straight forward. The rubber pad is the provided tee pad; the player must throw from it.

Thanks. Don't know how I missed that.

md21954
Jun 02 2010, 02:07 PM
If the rubber tee pad is slippery a player can put down a towel for traction, but convincing a group of players that the tee pad could be considered a player's equipment is preposterous.

you might consider it preposterous, but the rules allow that to be debated. especially if the tee pad isn't fixed to the ground. by rule, the slightest movement of the tee pad between and behind the flags caused by repeated use can't be distinquished from simply pushing the teepad out of the way.

august
Jun 02 2010, 02:24 PM
you might consider it preposterous, but the rules allow that to be debated. especially if the tee pad isn't fixed to the ground. by rule, the slightest movement of the tee pad between and behind the flags caused by repeated use can't be distinquished from simply pushing the teepad out of the way.


Now that IS preposterous. Player's equipment is equipment that is the personal property of the player, not equipment that is part of the course. The tee pad is course equipment, as are the targets and tee signs. Note the position of the apostrophe indicating that the equipment belongs to the player.

atlscott
Jun 28 2010, 11:41 PM
What is the ruling if an unsecured rubber teepad moves while a player is teeing off causing an obviously errant shot that ends up OB? Yes this happened to me earlier this year.

Another one: at our last tournament new gravel which was sandy and way too deep most of the time was poured on all the pads making them difficult to use. As our group walked up to our next hole a player was teeing off behind what seemed to be the teepad which was boxed in on 3 sides with wood (not the back). He claimed he could throw behind a tee and when we told him he had to use the marked teeing area he claimed some gravel had spilled beyond the point where the wood sides of the pad ended and that it still constituted the teepad. Any opinions? He walked off during this discussion so it basically got dropped.

Martin_Bohn
Jun 29 2010, 10:56 AM
i believe you get 3 meters from the front of the teepad to throw from.
as far as throwing an errant shot from an unsecured teepad, im sure there will be debate about this but, everyone else has to deal with the unsecured teepad so your responsible for your shot whether its good or bad. now i would definitely think about not going back to a tourney that has conditions like that.....

veganray
Jun 29 2010, 11:49 AM
i believe you get 3 meters from the front of the teepad to throw from.

Nope; only if there is no tee pad. 803.02A:
Play shall begin on each hole with the player throwing from within the teeing area. When the disc is released, at least one of the player's supporting points must be in contact with the surface of the teeing area, and all the player's supporting points must be within the teeing area. If a tee pad is provided, all supporting points must be on the pad at the time of release, unless the director has specified a modified teeing area for safety reasons. If no tee pad is provided, all supporting points at the time of release must be within an area encompassed by the front line of the teeing area and two lines perpendicular to and extending back three meters from each end of the front line. The front line of the teeing area includes the outside edges of the two tee markers. Running up from behind the teeing area
before the disc is released is permitted. Following through in front of the teeing area is
permitted provided there is no supporting point contact outside the teeing area when the disc
is released.

keithjohnson
Jun 29 2010, 11:59 AM
Both of you are right as with no "back" to the teeing area - you had 3 meters from the front line - I used right inside the 3 meters line on several of the squirrelier ones.
Tee pads used to be crusher run and then the city added "fine beach sand" on top of them this year and hopefully the good that comes out of this is that they may go to concrete or crusher run only again next time.