O.K., I got one I hope you all can clarify for me. Today while playing a doubles round, I attempted a birdie putt 50 feet from the basket. The putt hit chains, slipped through and bounced off the bottom of the basket, then flipped and came to rest hanging off the basket rim. It was actually hanging on the outside of the basket. Here's a pic I took. Tell me what you think, did the putt count as a legally made putt?

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Legal%20Birdie%20Putt/th_0525001920.jpg (http://s952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/Webslinger_WDGC/Legal%20Birdie%20Putt/?action=view&current=0525001920.jpg)

803.13B says it's legal. 'This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section..."

It's good. This was just shown in the Rules School article on the PDGA Home page a few weeks ago: http://www.pdga.com/interference-rule

http://www.pdga.com/files/u5379/Hole_Outs.jpg

Thanks for the confirmation guys.

From my understanding, the yellow one in that picture does not count. Is that true?

That is correct. The yellow disc is the only disc in the picture that does not count.

That is correct. The yellow disc is the only disc in the picture that does not count.

What if the yellow disc is touching and thereby supported by a chain link or two?

By my thinking the yellow would not count unless it was also it contact with the chains in which case the disc would be supported by the catching device.

Thanks for the photo Chuck and the link.

"If the thrower of the �wedgie� has not yet gotten the �at rest� call from the group or they are not yet willing to do so, the thrower must quickly get to the basket and remove the wedgie to make sure it doesn�t pop out so the hole out can be completed. If it does pop out before it�s deemed at rest, then the new lie for the disc is where it lands on the ground and that thrower will then have to putt out."

This seems wrong to me. Since I play on a course with little grass and steep slopes, the last sentence should be altered to read "...then the new lie for the disc is where it comes to rest on the playing surface..."

Playing from where it landed on the ground at DeLa would be wonderful, since after the landing it might roll 60 ft down a slope and hop into a clump of poison oak... Or roll OB.

Cheers,
Steve

This seems wrong to me. Since I play on a course with little grass and steep slopes, the last sentence should be altered to read "...then the new lie for the disc is where it comes to rest on the playing surface..."

Playing from where it landed on the ground at DeLa would be wonderful, since after the landing it might roll 60 ft down a slope and hop into a clump of poison oak... Or roll OB.

Cheers,
Steve

Total agreement here, Steve. "PDGA Staff" needs to read the rulebook.
803.13 Holing Out


B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.


It says nothing about an "at rest call" or where the next lie is. UNTIL REMOVED. So, if it pops out and rolls, the overriding rule says, in common language, 'play it where stops'. If a 525' drive ends up wedged, it's an Ace unless it pops out before it's retrieved.

As to the yellow disc in the picture...Nope. It's suspended from the upper section. According to the rule, that's not good. Touching a link isn't good enough, it's not an OB-like situation.

Eupher, rule 803.07B does say the disc at rest can't be moved and it also shows up in the rulebook before holing out in 803.13. If the 'at rest' call can't be made on your hypothetical 525 ace requiring the player to retrieve the disc, a spectator could simply remove the disc and the player could not hole out, not just for this ace but for any throw in the basket.

Nice Picture !!!

No one pulled their discs after putting in our sixsome so I thought it might be a cool pic :)

Eupher, rule 803.07B does say the disc at rest can't be moved and it also shows up in the rulebook before holing out in 803.13. If the 'at rest' call can't be made on your hypothetical 525 ace requiring the player to retrieve the disc, a spectator could simply remove the disc and the player could not hole out, not just for this ace but for any throw in the basket.

Chuck, 803.07 does not say that, though one might infer that from the rule. It actually provides guidance on what to do if and when a disc is moved from where it comes to rest.

I can't find the requirement for making an "at rest" call either. There are several rules where calls are mandated, for example making a call on OB status, foot faults, and lost disc. But I don't see anything requiring an "at rest" call prior to removing a disc from the target to comply with the holing out rule. Perhaps a definition of "at rest" could be added to the glossary in the front of the book.

....Actually, "at rest" is defined in 803.03F, but it pertains to discs in water. I suppose we could extrapolate that definition and apply it to other areas. Once the disc is moving only by the action of the target or the wind on the target, then it would be deemed to be "at rest".

Hi Chuck et al.,

My apologies for confusing the issue. Let me try to be clear. Here is the quote from the Rules School:

"If the thrower of the �wedgie� has not yet gotten the �at rest� call from the group or they are not yet willing to do so, the thrower must quickly get to the basket and remove the wedgie to make sure it doesn�t pop out so the hole out can be completed. If it does pop out before it�s deemed at rest, then the new lie for the disc is where it lands on the ground and that thrower will then have to putt out."

My interpretation of "where it lands on the ground" is where it first made CONTACT with the ground. This is different from where the disc may eventually come to rest. If "where it lands" is equivalent to "where it stops", then I have no problem. However, as written, I would literally interpret the meaning as where the disc HIT the ground, not where it eventually stopped. That's contrary to the idea of playing the disc where it lies.

If the disc was above the playing surface, and upon approach it falls out due to wind, do you play it "where it lands" or "where it stops"? I see no difference between a tree and a wedgie popping out with regard to marking your lie at the end of the disc's motion (i.e. "where it stops").

I'm not concerned about the holing out issue. I'm more interested in the issue of marking the lie once the disc pops out of the cage. "Where it lands" is, to me, VERY different from "where it stops" (i.e. is at rest).

I hope this clarifies my question regarding the diction used in this Rules School excerpt.

Thanks!
Steve

The rules specifically separate "playing surface" and the "target" from all other places a disc might land in terms of how to handle it if the disc moves or gets moved before the player marks it. If a disc at rest on the playing surface or target moves before being marked or removed, it's replaced in position. A disc landing in any other position, typically above the playing surface, is "live" until the player gets to it. If it moves, the disc is marked where it ends up, not where it hits the ground.

While you might question the logic on this, that's the way the rule was established. My logic for why the RC wrote the rule this way would be that a disc on the playing surface or in the basket has a "markable" position established. A disc above the playing surface can many times not be seen from the tee and could be moving for a variety of reasons until the player gets there. Even if you see it, the specific location for marking it on the ground below it isn't always visible from a distance.

Hi Chuck et al.,

My apologies for confusing the issue. Let me try to be clear. Here is the quote from the Rules School:

"If the thrower of the �wedgie� has not yet gotten the �at rest� call from the group or they are not yet willing to do so, the thrower must quickly get to the basket and remove the wedgie to make sure it doesn�t pop out so the hole out can be completed. If it does pop out before it�s deemed at rest, then the new lie for the disc is where it lands on the ground and that thrower will then have to putt out."

My interpretation of "where it lands on the ground" is where it first made CONTACT with the ground. This is different from where the disc may eventually come to rest. If "where it lands" is equivalent to "where it stops", then I have no problem. However, as written, I would literally interpret the meaning as where the disc HIT the ground, not where it eventually stopped. That's contrary to the idea of playing the disc where it lies.

If the disc was above the playing surface, and upon approach it falls out due to wind, do you play it "where it lands" or "where it stops"? I see no difference between a tree and a wedgie popping out with regard to marking your lie at the end of the disc's motion (i.e. "where it stops").

I'm not concerned about the holing out issue. I'm more interested in the issue of marking the lie once the disc pops out of the cage. "Where it lands" is, to me, VERY different from "where it stops" (i.e. is at rest).

I hope this clarifies my question regarding the diction used in this Rules School excerpt.

Thanks!
Steve

steve, in your case a couple of railroad ties on 25 long at dela will take care of 90% of your "where it stops" issues... :) :) :)

If it moves, the disc is marked where it ends up, not where it hits the ground.

Hi Chuck,

Not questioning the logic at all. Just the diction. So in the Rules school example, "where it lands" really means "where it stops." I just think, given the various ways folks interpret the English language, it is best to use clear wording, when possible. Hence my dislike of the term "lands" vs. "stops" or "at rest."

I can imagine someone saying "Well, it LANDED under the basket after it popped out of the wedgie, and then ROLLED 80 ft away. But the Rule School said mark it where it LANDS, not where it comes to rest..." :-)

Thanks!
Steve

I see now. So, when a boat lands, it's where it touches land first but not where it ventures farther onto shore... ;)

Bingo! Like when a plane lands, is it at the point of "touch down" or on the strip or at the gate, when finally "at rest." ;-)

..or on the Hudson... or is that "watering"?

..or on the Hudson... or is that "watering"?

No, that's pulling one out of your backside....very quickly!

Eupher, rule 803.07B does say the disc at rest can't be moved and it also shows up in the rulebook before holing out in 803.13. If the 'at rest' call can't be made on your hypothetical 525 ace requiring the player to retrieve the disc, a spectator could simply remove the disc and the player could not hole out, not just for this ace but for any throw in the basket.

What does an "at rest" call have to do with it? Wouldn't the player be "holed out" (a horribly ugly and unneeded term, by the way) by the act of a spectator removing the disc? The rules say:

800. "the removal of the disc"

803.13 B. "until removed"

They don't say "by the player" or even "by any player".

Furthermore, I read the words "removed" and "removal" to mean an action of a person, but I suppose one could argue that the disc was "removed" by gravity or wind.

I'm hoping the rules committee hires a professional technical writer to put their intentions into words.