arlskipshot1
May 11 2010, 10:59 PM
I like the posting of rules explanations on the home page. Many topics were touched on to help with everyone getting on the same page with interpretations.
One rule, though, I would question on this page was the one saying that a "wedgie" caught in the side of the pan can be deemed at rest by the group and in that case the player does not have to run up to it and remove it before it falls. I personally believe that if it falls out, then it was moving the whole time even if some of the movement was so microscopic no one could see it happening. That aside, the rule says that it is up to the group to decide whether or not to give it to the player. This IS absurd to leave it to players that may want to stroke him to get a little closer to beating him or leave it to players that may like or dislike the person. The rule should be clear. Either it's still in play till he removes it, or the hole is finished once it was stuck in the side and appeared still for a moment. I think the first choice is the easiest to play under.

cgkdisc
May 11 2010, 11:14 PM
Players have to make calls in a variety of situations (like foot faults). A player can appeal to the TD if it appears the group was holding out on an "at rest" call. That part of the rule wouldn't have been written to deal with discs at rest on the basket if it was not the intent for discs located there to be replaced if moved such as DROTs. The rule could just have dealt with discs at rest on the playing surface and let discs on the basket move like discs in trees and bushes are allowed to.

krazyeye
May 11 2010, 11:22 PM
If a disc is going into the basket and gets hung then falls out it had to stop at some point. Forward then backwards requires a momentary pause ever so microscopic.

krazyeye
May 11 2010, 11:27 PM
Although if it was never in enough to stay in it was never in.

curt
May 12 2010, 12:14 AM
Could someone please point me to the rule that allows a player to pick up an active disc that is not at rest?

If there is no such rule, and a player turns to his group and says, "Is that disc wedged into the basket at rest?"

his group says, "No".

Where is it written in the rules that the player can then walk up to his disc, grab it, and say, "I've holed out"?

arlskipshot1
May 12 2010, 12:15 AM
A player can appeal to the TD if it appears the group was holding out on an "at rest" call.

He can appeal to the TD????? How can the TD know definetivly whether the call was correct or not? He was on the other side of the course watching drives off the mountain. Krazy's point about it having to come to a stop before it can come out the opposite way it came in is a good one, but some discs come back out quicker than others never really having gotten stuck at all. I maintain the easiest way to deal with it is it's in play till it is removed.

cgkdisc
May 12 2010, 12:47 AM
But that's not the rule. You can be subject to a courtesy violation or more if you don't provide a fair call of "at rest" to the player.

Players are regularly allowed to touch moving discs in the basket in the case where it's trapped in the chains on a windy day and it's still moving. In essence, the disc is "at rest" by default when the player removes it to hole out. That's what Skip is implying by waiting until the player removes the disc, but it shouldn't be necessary to make the player run 150 feet to hole out on a wedgie. And it doesn't matter if the TD doesn't see it. If the player explains what happened and where the shot was made from, any TD worth their salt can determine just from the discussion with the group whether shenanigans were being pulled by the group.

curt
May 12 2010, 01:50 AM
Players are regularly allowed to touch moving discs in the basket in the case where it's trapped in the chains on a windy day and it's still moving. In essence, the disc is "at rest" by default when the player removes it to hole out.

While I agree that this is regularly allowed and should be, my issue is really more with interpretations of the rule that do not fit the text of the rules. The rules clearly require the disc to be at rest before it can be removed from the basket, which also would not allow players to remove a disc from the chains while moving. For the PDGA to issue official interpretations of the rules and can not really be supported by the text of the rulebook, despite how frequent and accepted the practice is, rewards players who do not read the rulebook. Instead, a player should just play with experienced players to learn the standard procedures.

To recap, I think there needs to be a rewording of the rules about when discs are at rest and how the definition changes around the basket. Also, there needs to be an "at rest" entry in the definition of terms. The phrase "at rest" is repeatedly used throughout the rulebook, and clearly does not have a common (or even consistent) definition.


803.13.B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.

gotcha
May 12 2010, 08:29 AM
<!-- content-left --> <!-- content-main --> <!-- main --> 803.13 Holing Out



B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.

arlskipshot1
May 12 2010, 03:05 PM
Jerry has made the argument mute. If the rule is stated correctly, then it must be removed by the thrower before it can be counted in. Chuckie's argument about running 150 feet is a good one, too, and in the case of making the group wait for the player to run to the basket, I can see where the group should be allowed to rule the shot "in" so they can continue with play without the wait. In no case, however, should they be allowed to rule it not in and then say he has to wait till everyone has thrown up to the basket before he can make his run. In other words they either rule it in or let him make the run. Should he get to the disc in time to remove it from the basket, then he was "in" no matter what the rest of the group wanted to happen.

cgkdisc
May 12 2010, 04:32 PM
Jerry has made the argument mute. If the rule is stated correctly, then it must be removed by the thrower before it can be counted in.
The Interference rule, which is what this is about, clearly allows the disc on the basket to be replaced if moved so a player can hole out. It does not require the disc to physically remain in the basket before holing out if tampered with. Otherwise, spectators would be able to knock the disc out of the basket and the player would not have holed out. Clearly that isn't correct nor should it be allowed.

The Interference rule allows the disc to be replaced in its position should it be interfered with. Granted that appears to be in conflict with the 'disc remaining in the chains or entrapment section until removed.' However, the Interference rule is earlier in the rulebook and would be applied before the holing out rule for lack of any clear guidance on that apparent common sense conflict.

brock
May 13 2010, 01:38 PM
i've never thought the wedge should count unless >50% of the disc was on the "inside" of the basket. (I envision the wedge a basketball gets between rim/backboard)

conversely (and for comic relief) i LOVE seeing a golfer run up to the basket to retrieve a wedged disc.

on maui, we have a mountain course that is amazing. Dating back almost 20 years, locals have a rule where if the disc starts rolling after your throw, as long as you can catch it before it stops rolling, you can reputt from original lie no penalty. Also, if it is stuck in a tree, and you can knock it down and catch it before it hits the ground, you can reputt.

makes for some fun and entertaining golf.

krazyeye
May 26 2010, 12:34 PM
If a thrown disc hits my bag sitting on the ground by the tbox is it interference? I never saw it coming.

A friend thinks this suggests I get a two stroke penalty.

803.07 C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or
obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a
competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty
throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

pterodactyl
May 26 2010, 02:23 PM
Are you conscious?

the_kid
May 26 2010, 02:30 PM
But that's not the rule. You can be subject to a courtesy violation or more if you don't provide a fair call of "at rest" to the player.

Players are regularly allowed to touch moving discs in the basket in the case where it's trapped in the chains on a windy day and it's still moving. In essence, the disc is "at rest" by default when the player removes it to hole out. That's what Skip is implying by waiting until the player removes the disc, but it shouldn't be necessary to make the player run 150 feet to hole out on a wedgie. And it doesn't matter if the TD doesn't see it. If the player explains what happened and where the shot was made from, any TD worth their salt can determine just from the discussion with the group whether shenanigans were being pulled by the group.

How about 400ft? That is what i had to do when I wedged one in for an ace...........and BTW that was 400ft of flooded lake I had to run through.

I will never give the call to someone who doesn't get to their disc in time.........

Also if you haven't noticed the PDGA doesn't evaluate TDs and as long as they send in the player fees the PDGA considers them "worth their salt". This is unfortunate because events are becoming so saturated in many areas with some events/series run by less than spectacular TDs.

krazyeye
May 26 2010, 03:07 PM
Are you conscious?

Yes.

wsfaplau
May 26 2010, 03:31 PM
I will never give the call to someone who doesn't get to their disc in time.........

.

How do you justify that?

the_kid
May 26 2010, 03:48 PM
How do you justify that?

The disc IMO never came to rest before falling out..............I would also expect the same if I didn't get there in time.

This used to happen a lot more when I used soft putters but everyone I know considers it in if you can get to the disc while it is still supported but not in if it falls out before pulling the disc.

To tell you the truth I didn't even know until recently that the group could make the call........but I personally wouldn't give it to someone if it fell out before they reached the disc.

the_kid
May 26 2010, 03:50 PM
How do you justify that?

What is someone sticks the disc in on a blind hole and the disc falls out before anyone can see it was actually stuck?

This is why I stick to my belief that if it falls out it shouldn't be allowed to be ruled in since the person on the blind hole would be at a disadvantage compared to the guy sticking it from 30ft........having the disc fall out......and having the group rule it in.

krupicka
May 26 2010, 04:03 PM
Catch-22. If you don't think the disc is at rest, then it is illegal to remove the wedged disc (interference). If it is at rest, then if it falls out it can be replaced. Telling someone to run to remove the disc before it falls out is a non-rule.

the_kid
May 26 2010, 04:14 PM
Catch-22. If you don't think the disc is at rest, then it is illegal to remove the wedged disc (interference). If it is at rest, then if it falls out it can be replaced. Telling someone to run to remove the disc before it falls out is a non-rule.

Which is why the rules need some editing............and as Chuck previously mentioned this already happens with discs swaying in the chains.

I have never seen a disc fall out and be counted as in..........and I don't expect to anytime soon.

krazyeye
May 26 2010, 04:26 PM
Also if you haven't noticed the PDGA doesn't evaluate TDs and as long as they send in the player fees the PDGA considers them "worth their salt". This is unfortunate because events are becoming so saturated in many areas with some events/series run by less than spectacular TDs.

You jest.

Joshua_Smith
Jun 02 2010, 12:26 PM
Related to interference rule but, not wedgies :-)

Was at a tourney last weekend and my group got ahead of me before my 2nd shot. When I stated that I was throwing they said go ahead - I threw a roller that was headed nicely down the fairway to the basket when another player failed to move his bag and it stopped my roller in its tracks :-(

What would be the call with concern to Interference rule 803.07?

Thanks in advance!

pterodactyl
Jun 02 2010, 12:43 PM
First of all, players shouldn't be ahead of you. Second, why did you throw with a bag in the fairway? I would have to say that this is your fault for not having the bag removed from the fairway. No courtesy violation imo.

I think you just need to direct traffic better.

august
Jun 02 2010, 12:53 PM
No interference call here at all. If you had first asked for the bag to be removed and the request was refused, that would be a courtesy warning. Since you didn't, play it where it lies. Nonetheless, you could give a courtesy warning to all in the group who went ahead of you when you were the away player.

Joshua_Smith
Jun 02 2010, 12:54 PM
The players were ahead of me searching for a lost disc and I guess forgot about me. Would this fall under courtesy or playing out of order?

Also, their bags were not in the "fairway" but, just off in the rough where my roller headed. They saw me tee up and they were ready for me to throw but, my roller was fast and 1 player did not move his bag in time. We did not make a call at the time which is why I am posting this question.

Edit - Thanks August, I did not think of giving a courtesy warning.

august
Jun 02 2010, 01:32 PM
Courtesy warnings should be used sparingly. Nonetheless, if the place where they began looking for the lost disc was beyond your lie, it seems as though they should have waited until you threw first, then proceed to look for the disc for three minutes. This would be a courtesy violation. Playing out of order comes under courtesy as well, but that would not apply here unless someone threw before you did when you were the away player.

cgkdisc
Jan 07 2011, 12:49 PM
Just updated the Rules School article on Interference to synch with the 2011 change in the Holing Out rule.

http://www.pdga.com/interference-rule

krupicka
Jan 07 2011, 02:03 PM
Chuck, if a disc is not at rest, are you allowed to touch it?

cgkdisc
Jan 07 2011, 04:14 PM
Good question. If a disc is still moving, whether yours or another players before it has first come to rest, it would technically be interference if you touch it. I think the subtlety implied in grabbing a disc suspended on the target, not in a holed out position such as a wedgie before it pops out, is that as soon as you (or now another player in some cases under new rules) get there to grab it, it's "at rest" by default even if the group didn't give you the call before moving toward the basket to retrieve it.

Hoser
Jan 08 2011, 12:59 PM
Interesting situation.


� The word �rest� appears 18 times in the 2011 rules and isn�t defined anywhere in the rulebook.

� Only Rule 803.03F (and its repetition in 803.09A) specifies when a disc is at rest (in water).

� No rule says anything about anyone � throwers, groupmates, a majority of a group, a whole group, an official � �giving a call,� or agreeing, or in any way determining, that a disc is at rest.

� No rule mentions arriving at a disc, except 803.08D which applies only to discs above 2M, and 801.03A(2) which applies only to the 30 second rule, and 803.11A which applies only to lost discs. No rule says or implies that anyone arriving at a disc makes the disc more �at rest� than before the arrival.


So: if a group sees a flying disc wedge into the outside of a basket pan and hang there looking like it might squeeze itself out and maybe catch an edge when it hits the ground and roll away, who (or what rule) determines when or if the disc is at rest while it�s wedged?

cgkdisc
Jan 08 2011, 01:03 PM
At least you don't need to call the TD to get a ruling...

krupicka
Jan 08 2011, 02:38 PM
No instead we just use urban legend propagated on the pdga home page that you have to run to the basket to consider it holed out.