ERicJ
Mar 29 2010, 01:28 PM
Looking for a rules interpretation on this situation.

Playing a sanctioned tourney a card of four players is in the middle of the course/round and mistakenly starts to play an upcoming hole out of order. All four players tee off. Three of the four players throw their second shot and then the card is informed by other players that they are on the wrong hole. All four players pick up their discs and proceed to the next correct hole in sequence. When the players come back to this hole in the correct sequence they all play the hole as though it had not been misplayed before.

The penalty for the player who only threw once on the misplayed hole is obvious. But how many penalty strokes are accrued by the three other players who threw twice on the misplayed hole?

I'm curious to see the message board opinion on this one as it took four certified officials a good long time to sort this out.

cgkdisc
Mar 29 2010, 01:49 PM
What should have happened is the three players who played two throws should have completed the hole and the fourth player watch. Then they go to the correct hole and continue. When they get back to the hole that was completed out of sequence, the fourth player plays it from the beginning. He gets a 1-throw penalty for a practice throw and the others get a 2-throw penalty for playing out of sequence.

Since this did not happen, the fourth player would still get the same one throw penalty for the practice throw. The others should get a 2-throw penalty for playing out of sequence and two more for their practice throws.

krupicka
Mar 29 2010, 02:02 PM
I would rule it the same (Players 1-3: 2+2, Player 4: 1), but how can one using the rules argue that it shouldn't be:
2 throws +2 for non-sequential play +2 for not finishing the hole as the rules instructed.
not to mention whatever they would earn for playing the hole again.

cgkdisc
Mar 29 2010, 02:11 PM
Although not formally written into the rules, there's a bias against compounding penalties for the same infraction. Playing the hole out of sequence and not finishing the hole essentially were the same infraction. If I'm a TD dealing with ams in a lower division, I might have waived the practice throws and just given them a 2-throw sequence penalty but it would depend on how everything happened and whether an official told them what to do.

In general, I hate to see penalties for "out-of-sequence" because sometimes it's the TD who is at fault for insufficient signage. When have you ever heard of players playing holes out of sequence in a ball golf event?

ERicJ
Mar 29 2010, 03:15 PM
The course was clearly marked with beautiful tee signs and every player got a full color course map in their player pack. 25+ other cards played the course in the correct order that day. There probably could have been even more done to assist in course navigation, but that is not the question for this thread.

The AM Masters players played it as I described and did not consult a rulebook or roving course official.

but how can one using the rules argue that it shouldn't be:
2 throws +2 for non-sequential play +2 for not finishing the hole as the rules instructed.
not to mention whatever they would earn for playing the hole again.
That's exactly what we ended up ruling.

Like I said, the player who threw the single throw is easy to penalize for the one practice throw. But the other players were committed to finishing the hole after throwing the second throw: 801.04(5). By picking up their discs after the second throw and aborting the hole they also fall subject to 803.13 for:

(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.

... which clearly specified that other penalty throws are also relevant.

So now they're done with that hole. They could have carded a 2+2+2=6 on that hole if they'd have skipped it when it came up in the rotation normally. But since they played it again those were all practice throws. :( So they ended up carding what they effectively scored on the hole the second time through plus the six strokes from the first time.

As I said we had four officials debating this for a long time... and by following the rules in the book the logical outcome was effectively six penalty strokes. It's too bad none of them had a rule book or consulted the course official at the time of the infraction.

cgkdisc
Mar 29 2010, 04:07 PM
That's not correct because they did not fail to finish a correct hole but a wrong hole which is in another rule. As I pointed out, you add the 2 shots for non-sequential plus 2 practice throws and do not apply the 2 throws for not completing the hole. I know you could really punish someone with 6 throws but it's similar to the situation where a player was supposed to get a 2-throw penalty for something after turning in their scorecard and you not only give them 2 for the penalty but two more for not truning in the correct score. The penalties are connected and only one or the other 2-throw penalty should be applied. In this case, the "not finishing a hole" error was connected with the non-sequential error and both penalties should not be applied.

ERicJ
Mar 29 2010, 04:25 PM
That's not correct because they did not fail to finish a correct hole but a wrong hole which is in another rule.
I'm not clear why "correct" or "wrong" hole is relevant to failure to hole out. Once a player has taken a second shot on a "wrong" hole they're committed by rule to playing it out as a "correct" or "real" hole, are they not?

It's two separate rules infractions the first one caused by not knowing the stipulated course, and the second caused by not knowing the rule requiring them to play the hole to completion after a subsequent, i.e. second, throw.

How/why can you choose to enforce practice throw penalties on a wrong hole, but choose to waive a failure to hole out penalty? Where does it say TD discretion applies to those rules?

cgkdisc
Mar 29 2010, 04:44 PM
I'm just telling you how experienced marshals would likely have called it. There were two distinct incidents: (a) the decision to pick up and go to play the correct hole which should only be penalized with one of the two possible penalties, non-sequential or failure to complete, and (b) that decision made the one or two throws from the wrong tee practice throws. If you want to get technical the fairness rule 803.01F is what justifies using just one of the two possible penalties.

At Worlds we had a player who played his upshot from another player's disc that was the same color and type. After the upshot, they discovered the problem and the players in his group said he had to play from his real disc. So he threw from his own disc and "holed out." However, if you read the rule 803.10, once you play from another player's lie, you continue to complete the hole and add a 2-throw penalty. So, this player could have gotten penalized for failure to complete the hole and playing from the wrong lie. Gentry, TD (myself) and other marshals in ear shot agreed that the player should get one of the 2-throw penalties and count every throw he physically made. In effect, that added one more throw to his score for the practice throw from the wrong lie. It could have been worse but it was one wrong decision that lead to potential multiple penalties and only one was applied. To rub salt in the wound further, he had just taken a 2 meter penalty in a pine tree on the only hole on all four courses where the 2 meter penalty was in effect... :)

ERicJ
Mar 29 2010, 05:20 PM
Chuck, I appreciate your experience and insight on this. Thanks for helping my understanding.

In your ruling of a 2+2 penalty, if you're calling the two throws "practice throws" then couldn't the player argue that they were not actually playing a hole at all but simply throwing practice throws for the next time they got there, thus reducing it to a total penalty of two strokes for practice throws (eliminating non-sequential and failure to complete)?

cgkdisc
Mar 29 2010, 05:39 PM
Not really. Practice throws are potentially made any time in the round when you're not throwing from the correct lie except for provisionals.

ERicJ
Mar 29 2010, 08:24 PM
I know you could really punish someone with 6 throws but it's similar to the situation where a player was supposed to get a 2-throw penalty for something after turning in their scorecard and you not only give them 2 for the penalty but two more for not truning in the correct score. The penalties are connected and only one or the other 2-throw penalty should be applied. In this case, the "not finishing a hole" error was connected with the non-sequential error and both penalties should not be applied.
But the penalty-after-the-scorecard-is-turned-in situation is clearly specified in the rules:

804.03.G(2) If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, including omission of the total score, the director shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score. These penalty throws are not added when the TD (or an official designated by the TD, such as a course director) corrects a player's score for other infractions determined after this player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard.

As you said there may be an unwritten bias against compound penalties, but if that is the intent across the board instead of just for 804.03.G(2), then it should be written.

I don't see anything in the published rules that indicates the occurrence in the OP shouldn't have been a 6-stroke penalty... just the selective application of 803.01.F. But again, I do appreciate the opinion of how some other experienced officials would have called it.

ERicJ
Mar 29 2010, 08:32 PM
There were two distinct incidents: (a) the decision to pick up and go to play the correct hole which should only be penalized with one of the two possible penalties, non-sequential or failure to complete, and (b) that decision made the one or two throws from the wrong tee practice throws. If you want to get technical the fairness rule 803.01F is what justifies using just one of the two possible penalties.
The way our committee saw it were three distinct incidents:



(a) teeing off on the wrong hole and throwing a subsequent shot on that hole

which would be penalized by non-sequential play, and



(b) the decision to pick up and go play the correct hole

which would be penalized by failure to hole out, and



(c) the decision to re-play the hole when they got to it again

which would be penalized by practice throws.

Three different mistakes were made vs. three different published rules, each one penalized once.

cgkdisc
Mar 29 2010, 08:44 PM
The marshals would see it where b & c were linked. c wouldn't have occurred without b happening.

jamie
Mar 29 2010, 09:28 PM
Just a question, if you stopped them and then penalized them 6 strokes, why didn't you just let them finish that hole and give them a penalty for playing out of order instead of double-penalizing them?

ERicJ
Mar 29 2010, 11:13 PM
Just a question, if you stopped them and then penalized them 6 strokes, why didn't you just let them finish that hole and give them a penalty for playing out of order instead of double-penalizing them?
It was only brought to the attention of the tournament staff after the round was complete and before the card was turned in.

august
Mar 30 2010, 08:33 AM
In reading the applicable rules I don't see any distinction between "correct" hole and "wrong" hole. There is discussion of wrong tee and wrong target as well as wrong order of play. I would think that if a certain hole on the course is not being used for the instant round and someone plays it, then all of those throws would be practice throws. A non-sequential penalty could also apply.

I know that it is not the usual case where a hole on a course will not be used for a tournament, but if it happens often enough, it may be prudent to have a specific mention in the rules for that scenario.

jackinkc
Mar 30 2010, 03:49 PM
The marshals would see it where b & c were linked. c wouldn't have occurred without b happening.

Exactly....I have not added penalty strokes on top of penalty on top of penalties.

Once a scorecard is turned in and a decision is made that the card or the scenarios were unclear, the corrected information from the TD/Marshal is then exempt, and the players would NOT receive a 2 penalty stroke for the wrong card. Its a clarification before its an official final score.

If you come in with a card and turn it in, and then have explanations, or must talk with the TD, it is not incorrect until all parties agree on the scoring.

Now if you drop it off, and leave, and don't have these conversations, and someone else brings it up after the fact, then you would add the 2 strokes. But I am not going to penalize you for turning in a card that may be inaccurate until the scenarios are agreed upon, and everyone knows what the official ruling is (or at least one person from the card).