JerryChesterson
Mar 11 2010, 05:10 PM
Is a disc touching the OB in bounds?

Here's the scenario ....

At the Memorial my disc was touching the OB line. The OB line was approximately 1/2 inch think and separated 2 fairways. My disc was touching the line. Most of my disc was in the other fairway but a tiny portion of my disc was resting on the OB line. I successfully argued that the OB demarcation point was the outside of the ˝ inch line (the part of the line touching the other fairway) and not the inside of the ˝ inch line (the part of the line touching our fairway) and that the line itself doesn't actually have any thickness. I was not penalized (we reviewed it with an official). None of us where really clear on how the rule should be interpreted but I was thankful not to be penalized.

The reason I ask is I always thought the OB line itself was IB since if you throw across water and hit a wall that separates the OB from IB you are given your shot where it hit the wall. If the wall itself is the line and you hit the line (which according the rule is OB) then you shouldn’t be given your lie from where it hit the wall but rather where it was last IB. I realize the wall itself is usually considered IB but your disc really never crosses into IB, it always stops just short.

I personally think the rule should be re-written to avoid this issue so that the line itself is considered IB, kind of like how a foul pole in baseball is fair. I have seen some OB lines that are 1 inch thick and this could pose a problem.

veganray
Mar 11 2010, 05:18 PM
803.09(a):
a disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 f. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of-bounds.
I have argued unsuccessfully that the definition of a "line" implies no thickness and that the true OB line should be defined as the inner or outer edge of a painted stripe, so the stripe itself must be OB using the PDGA's revised definition of a "line".

krupicka
Mar 11 2010, 05:25 PM
Most sports define lines the same way such that the line is in/out depending on the sport. For disc golf, the line is OB. In the case of the wall meeting the water's edge, the line does indeed have no thickness and contact with the wall would be contact with an IB area. Looks like you should have had another throw on your score last weekend.

cgkdisc
Mar 11 2010, 05:29 PM
If the rule was "across the OB line on the other fairway is OB" then most of your disc was OB and the part touching/on top of the OB line was also OB since the line itself is now OB. Thus, your disc was completely OB. If both fairways were inbounds (even when playing the other one), then the OB line was useless if it was only 1/2 inch wide.

The OB line used to be IB before 2006. Now, if you hit a wall on the water line, if the TD marked the wall itself OB, the edge of the wall away from the water where it maybe touched grass would be the IB/OB plane, not where the water touched the wall. With nice cement edges at the Fountain, I think they made a mistake by not having the cement itself all be OB. Water and anything is usually a poor OB border unless there's a clear sharp edge between them. From what I remember, the water is shallow over the cement border in many places so any wave movement can make the water/cement OB call tricky.

RhynoBoy
Mar 11 2010, 06:32 PM
On 16 Fountain Hills we had a guy on our card with most of his disc OB and the inner edge resting on the line, but not breaking the plane on the IB side of the line. We ruled him OB. One guy on our card mentioned "Line has no thickness" so that's what we based part of our ruling on. (It was by that pathway BTW)

gippy
Mar 11 2010, 06:55 PM
It used to be the line was IB that changed. Part of your disc has to be over the line IB not to OB plain an simple. If you are on the line but no part of your disc is IB your OB.

kkrasinski
Mar 11 2010, 08:52 PM
"A line has no thickness" is a mathematical concept. There are other definitions of "line" such as –noun
1.
a mark or stroke long in proportion to its breadth, made with a pen, pencil, tool, etc., on a surface: a line down the middle of the page. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/line)

Disc golf is not math.

mannyd_928
Mar 11 2010, 10:11 PM
So let me get this straight, if my disc is half on the IB side and half on the OB side with the OB line running right through it, my disc is safe? But if 99% of my disc is on the OB side with 1% touching the OB line, I'm OB? And if 99% of my disc is IB and 1% is touching the OB line, I'm safe? If the rule clearly states that the OB line itself is OB shouldn't it mean that even if your 99% in and 1% touching the line, you should be OB, cause the line itself is OB? Confusing and controversial!

krupicka
Mar 11 2010, 10:53 PM
It's pretty simple. If any part of your disc is IB, then you are IB. The line is not included in the IB area.

Fishead_Tim
Mar 12 2010, 07:48 AM
If ANY PART of your disc is touching the in-bounds side of the course,.... Simply put, YOU ARE IN-BOUNDS.

davidsauls
Mar 12 2010, 08:37 AM
"A line has no thickness" is a mathematical concept. There are other definitions of "line" such as –noun
1.
a mark or stroke long in proportion to its breadth, made with a pen, pencil, tool, etc., on a surface: a line down the middle of the page. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/line)

Disc golf is not math.

Thanks. This is my feeling but I was trying to figure out how to word it.

"Line", as used in sports, virtually always has width. Foul Line. Free throw line. Halfcourt line. Goal line.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 09:30 AM
What was the reasoning behind changing the rule to make the OB line OB versus IB ... look like I may have gotten away with one. The fact that the official, the people on my card, and the various others wathcing and giving opinion could really come to any conclusion makes me think some of us where thinking back to the old rule. I didn't event realize the OB line OB until I got back and re-read the rule. :eek:

krupicka
Mar 12 2010, 09:33 AM
The change was made so that if a disc that was in OB space hit a fence marking OB, then the last point IB would not be at the point where it hit the fence, but where the disc entered OB to begin with.

Chris Hysell
Mar 12 2010, 09:52 AM
We had a disc penetrate the ground underneath the painted OB line at the Memorial. As much as the thrower tried he could not get the spotter to rule the disc IB. The spotter held his ground, he was correct.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 10:30 AM
The change was made so that if a disc that was in OB space hit a fence marking OB, then the last point IB would not be at the point where it hit the fence, but where the disc entered OB to begin with.

Let me preface this by saying the rule probobly isn't being applied correctly but .... I've never seen that enforced that way even by seasoned TDs and Officials. I've always seen them mark the disc IB in that situation ... just as I stated above with the water situation. Looks like I'll have to change my rulings moving forward. Thanks for enlightening me y'all.

discette
Mar 12 2010, 10:33 AM
....look like I may have gotten away with one. The fact that the official, the people on my card, and the various others wathcing and giving opinion could really come to any conclusion makes me think some of us where thinking back to the old rule. I didn't event realize the OB line OB until I got back and re-read the rule. :eek:


I don't know what I find more disturbing, the fact that no one in the group was carrying a rule book or the fact such a basic rule was not known or easily understood. In an Super Tour A-Tier event no less.

It takes all of three seconds to open the rule book to the contents and see the OB rules are under 803.09. The first paragraph 803.09A explains clearly and without doubt that the OB line is considered OB. It may take an entire minute to read the rule aloud to the group. Then the group could be on their way and another improper call avoided.


I successfully argued that the OB demarcation point was the outside of the ˝ inch line (the part of the line touching the other fairway) and not the inside of the ˝ inch line (the part of the line touching our fairway) and that the line itself doesn't actually have any thickness. I was not penalized (we reviewed it with an official). None of us where really clear on how the rule should be interpreted but I was thankful not to be penalized.

You should be thankful no one in your group had a rule book!

krupicka
Mar 12 2010, 10:38 AM
Maybe the NT rules exam needs a few more questions regarding basic rules on it than they obscure ones selected.

davidsauls
Mar 12 2010, 10:41 AM
Let me preface this by saying the rule probobly isn't being applied correctly but .... I've never seen that enforced that way even by seasoned TDs and Officials. I've always seen them mark the disc IB in that situation ... just as I stated above with the water situation. Looks like I'll have to change my rulings moving forward. Thanks for enlightening me y'all.

The water situation is different from some of these other scenarios.

If water is defined as O.B., the line is the edge where the water touches shore (or a wall). If the disc hits the wall, it hasn't hit the line---it's hit inbounds.

In another scenario, and fenced-in area is defined as O.B., and the fence is the line. A disc that flies over the fenced-in area and hits the fence on the far side, has hit the line, not hit inbounds. This is where the rule change applies, and was intended to apply (I believe).

In the former, your next lie is on the side of the water where you hit the wall. In the latter, it's where you first crossed over into the fenced area.

*

The "read the rulebook" advice is good, but it was amazing when it came out how many people read it---and interpreted it mean that any disc touching an O.B. line, from whichever side, was automatically O.B. Maybe it's a reading comprehension problem, but that myth was widespread and still persists.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 11:03 AM
I don't know what I find more disturbing, the fact that no one in the group was carrying a rule book or the fact such a basic rule was not known or easily understood. In an Super Tour A-Tier event no less.

It takes all of three seconds to open the rule book to the contents and see the OB rules are under 803.09. The first paragraph 803.09A explains clearly and without doubt that the OB line is considered OB. It may take an entire minute to read the rule aloud to the group. Then the group could be on their way and another improper call avoided.




You should be thankful no one in your group had a rule book!
I had a rule book ... we followed protocol by calling an official ... the official & the spotter made the call, not me. The point I am trying to make is what is the demarcation point, the inside or outside of the line. We are litterally talking about like a 1/16 of an inch or less and it was so close that I think they just gave the player the benefit. It was so close I could have argued that a blade of unpainted grass from inbounds was touching my disc. (which was my next step) It isn't as black and white as you are all making it out to be.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 11:04 AM
Maybe the NT rules exam needs a few more questions regarding basic rules on it than they obscure ones selected.

Not applicable in this situation.

1) I am an Amatuer, rules test not required.
2) The official and the spotter made the call, not me.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 11:08 AM
The water situation is different from some of these other scenarios.

If water is defined as O.B., the line is the edge where the water touches shore (or a wall). If the disc hits the wall, it hasn't hit the line---it's hit inbounds.

In another scenario, and fenced-in area is defined as O.B., and the fence is the line. A disc that flies over the fenced-in area and hits the fence on the far side, has hit the line, not hit inbounds. This is where the rule change applies, and was intended to apply (I believe).

In the former, your next lie is on the side of the water where you hit the wall. In the latter, it's where you first crossed over into the fenced area.

*

The "read the rulebook" advice is good, but it was amazing when it came out how many people read it---and interpreted it mean that any disc touching an O.B. line, from whichever side, was automatically O.B. Maybe it's a reading comprehension problem, but that myth was widespread and still persists.

Not only does the rule book say that but the Caddy Book also said that. Either way the offical made the call.

I think the "myth" has to do with the rule change and a lot of people where not aware of that. You didn't do this but many people are harping on players for not knowing the rules. The players don't always know the rules and even when they have the rule, which we did, there is a lot that is left up to interpretation in many rules. I think people should be more upset that the officials (yes plural) ruled it IB and less upset at the players.

discette
Mar 12 2010, 11:17 AM
I had a rule book ... we followed protocol by calling an official ... the official & the spotter made the call, not me. The point I am trying to make is what is the demarcation point, the inside or outside of the line. We are litterally talking about like a 1/16 of an inch or less and it was so close that I think they just gave the player the benefit. It was so close I could have argued that a blade of unpainted grass from inbounds was touching my disc. (which was my next step) It isn't as black and white as you are all making it out to be.


I don't have a problem giving a player the benefit of a doubt when it is so close, but that is not the way you portrayed the problem in your first post.


At the Memorial my disc was touching the OB line. The OB line was approximately 1/2 inch think and separated 2 fairways. My disc was touching the line. Most of my disc was in the other fairway but a tiny portion of my disc was resting on the OB line. I successfully argued that the OB demarcation point was the outside of the ˝ inch line (the part of the line touching the other fairway) and not the inside of the ˝ inch line (the part of the line touching our fairway)
If you had a rulebook that clearly states the OB line is OB, why were you arguing that the OB line was inbounds?

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 11:22 AM
If you had a rulebook that clearly states the OB line is OB, why were you arguing that the OB line was inbounds?

I didn't open the book :(

Also there was an offical right there (should be noted that I am an offical too) so I just figured it was so close let's let him make the call.

I will admit ... I was wrong. I'm just glad I know the correct interpretation of the rule moving forward so I can better enforce at the next tourney when I'm the official.

cgkdisc
Mar 12 2010, 11:40 AM
This is not specifically directed at Jerry but is related to the issue. The player or group is supposed to make the call, not an official. An official should normally only be summoned or actually intervene if the issue is not covered in the rulebook or event guide. If I were the official nearby, I would have asked the group to make the call and not made it myself. If they didn't know the rule, I would have noted that the line is OB, now make the call. I'm thinking in the next Competition rules update, there should be a 2-shot penalty for evey player in the group (at least for all Advanced and Pro divisions) if no one in the group is carrying a rulebook and they summon an official for a call that is clearly covered in the rulebook. Maybe that would encourage more players to carry the rulebook and read it once in a while.

discette
Mar 12 2010, 11:45 AM
I didn't open the book :(

Also there was an offical right there (should be noted that I am an offical too) so I just figured it was so close let's let him make the call.

I will admit ... I was wrong. I'm just glad I know the correct interpretation of the rule moving forward so I can better enforce at the next tourney when I'm the official.

We all make mistakes, but it takes a true man to admit it so willingly and openly. You Roc!

Thanks for sharing and allowing everyone to learn from your example.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 12:04 PM
This is not specifically directed at Jerry but is related to the issue. The player or group is supposed to make the call, not an official. An official should normally only be summoned or actually intervene if the issue is not covered in the rulebook or event guide. If I were the official nearby, I would have asked the group to make the call and not made it myself. If they didn't know the rule, I would have noted that the line is OB, now make the call. I'm thinking in the next Competition rules update, there should be a 2-shot penalty for evey player in the group (at least for all Advanced and Pro divisions) if no one in the group is carrying a rulebook and they summon an official for a call that is clearly covered in the rulebook. Maybe that would encourage more players to carry the rulebook and read it once in a while.

I'll respectfully disagree. In the interest of time and with an offical right there, the appropriate response is to ask the official to make the call. The card did look at it and it was split 2 IB, 2 OB. The official shouldn't be there to help guide the group into making the right call, the official should know the rule and make the call. Just as in ball golf, if a player isn't sure, they call an offical and have the official make the rulling. The offical doesn't explain the rule and then ask the player to make the call.

RhynoBoy
Mar 12 2010, 12:13 PM
Here are a couple questions that are not so clear in the OB section of the rule book.

Rule of verticality:
At the memorial during a round at Fountain Hills, when your disc went OB around some baskets, (6 and 8 were the peninsula holes I think) There is a very steep grade to the concrete. Wouldn't you mark the 1 meter inbounds from the plane of the OB water line, instead of along the diagonal curve of the terrain? I hope that question makes sense.

Also, let's say on a given hole, On or across the side walk is OB. Your disc lands on the sidewalk, and the rim of the disc is completely on the side walk, but the wing of the disc is not completely OB and barely breaks the IB plan. The side walk too tall to actually have the disc touch anything, it would be considered In bounds?

Take that senario a step farther. Lets say there is an OB pond and the disc is on the edge of the water line, most of the disc OB, the bottom of the rim of the disc is completely surrounded by water, but the wing of the disc is hanging over the IB area. (it's hanging over dry land, out of the water line) There is no wind, so the water line is not moving. (Yes this one's actually happened to me before) What's the correct call?

jamie
Mar 12 2010, 12:14 PM
Just a simple question then, why is there an official even present, if he isn't supposed to make the call???? Why bother???

krupicka
Mar 12 2010, 12:28 PM
1- All measurements should be taken horizontally with no regards to the contour of the land.
2- You are talking about sidewalk and water being OB. The question is not making sense to me.
3- The OB line is a vertical plane, so a disc suspended over IB is IB. It does not need to touch an IB playing surface.

davidsauls
Mar 12 2010, 01:05 PM
1- All measurements should be taken horizontally with no regards to the contour of the land.
2- You are talking about sidewalk and water being OB. The question is not making sense to me.
3- The OB line is a vertical plane, so a disc suspended over IB is IB. It does not need to touch an IB playing surface.

Sorry to be lazy and just ask, but....

Is the OB line really a vertical plane? I'm under the impression that the rule of verticality only applies to marking your lie in relief from going, or being within 1 meter of, OB.

*

In regards to how well players know rules, and cracking down on those who don't, let's keep in mind that tournaments consists of veteran pros and raw beginners. Even if everyone on a card in the Rec division has read the book, they're subject to recalling a rule wrong, or not being able to find it. Many have been encouraged to try tournament play, and have never seen a rulebook.

The rules test for the NT division may be a feeble move in the right direction, but let's be a little more understanding down the ranks.

krupicka
Mar 12 2010, 01:24 PM
From the definition section:
Out-of-Bounds: An area designated
by the director prior to the start of play
from which a disc may not be played.
The out-of-bounds line extends a plane
vertically upward and downward. The
out-of-bounds line is itself out-of-bounds.
An out-of-bounds disc is not a lost disc.

august
Mar 12 2010, 01:30 PM
This is not specifically directed at Jerry but is related to the issue. The player or group is supposed to make the call, not an official. An official should normally only be summoned or actually intervene if the issue is not covered in the rulebook or event guide. If I were the official nearby, I would have asked the group to make the call and not made it myself. If they didn't know the rule, I would have noted that the line is OB, now make the call. I'm thinking in the next Competition rules update, there should be a 2-shot penalty for evey player in the group (at least for all Advanced and Pro divisions) if no one in the group is carrying a rulebook and they summon an official for a call that is clearly covered in the rulebook. Maybe that would encourage more players to carry the rulebook and read it once in a while.

I agree this is the spirit of the game, i.e. players should make the call, but there are other times when an official should step in. If there is no majority decision in the group, and someone in the group wants to appeal giving the thrower the benefit of the doubt, then the rules provide for an official to make the ruling. Another situation for an official to step in would be when the official observes a group making a blatantly wrong call not supported by the rules. To allow such a group to make a wrong call and let it stand would be unfair to other groups that understand the rules and get the call right.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. This is the kind of bullhockey that we need to clean up if we are going to be taken seriously as a sport.

davidsauls
Mar 12 2010, 02:03 PM
Thanks, Krupicka.

I simultaneously learned the rule a little better without looking it up myself,
and demonstrated how someone who's read the rules and thinks he knows them can still be part of the problem.

jdtitan
Mar 12 2010, 02:22 PM
It's pretty simple. If any part of your disc is IB, then you are IB. The line is not included in the IB area.
Bang! Next topic.

jdtitan
Mar 12 2010, 02:36 PM
Here are a couple questions that are not so clear in the OB section of the rule book.

Rule of verticality:
At the memorial during a round at Fountain Hills, when your disc went OB around some baskets, (6 and 8 were the peninsula holes I think) There is a very steep grade to the concrete. Wouldn't you mark the 1 meter inbounds from the plane of the OB water line, instead of along the diagonal curve of the terrain? I hope that question makes sense,
This question comes up at Pease #9 all the time. Your (my) upshot goes over the cliff behind the basket, into the water (or within 1 m.) As you mark your dixc 1m in, you get like 15-20 ft of rise towards the basket, halfway up the cliff. I always get sideways looks as I mark my relief, but this is how I read the rule.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE=discette;1416792]We all make mistakes, but it takes a true man to admit it so willingly and openly. You Roc![QUOTE]

WOW Coming from you that really means a lot!

cgkdisc
Mar 12 2010, 02:54 PM
Whenever you cliffs like that, it's better to mark the OB line on the edge of the cliff in some way rather than rely on the water line and weird or unsafe stances resulting from taking the disc up to 1m in from OB.

sunrisensunrise
Mar 12 2010, 03:03 PM
I was the player that questioned whether or not it was OB for being on the line. I thought (and correctly so apparently) that the disc was OB. One of the other player's in the group did not say anything because he felt his disc may be in a similar situation and didn't want to vote one way or the other. We called the officials, plural, over and even they could not agree. One said it was in, one said it was out. The caddy book, which caused some confusion throughout the weekend, stated the "the OB line left...and beyond was OB." I interpreted this as the line itself being OB and therefore questioned the lie and whether a penalty should have been assessed. I am guilty for not having my rule book in my bag at the time but I apparently knew the rules enough to question the lie. I guess I was just not as persuasive as I maybe could have been.

(During the discussion with the officials, this player that abstained from voting went and marked his lie so none of the group saw where it actually was even though the spotter called it OB. He later claimed it to be in bounds and since no one saw it, we had to give him the benefit of the doubt. He also is certified as an official.)

jdtitan
Mar 12 2010, 03:14 PM
Whenever you cliffs like that, it's better to mark the OB line on the edge of the cliff in some way rather than rely on the water line and weird or unsafe stances resulting from taking the disc up to 1m in from OB.
This is how we do it for sanctioned tournaments. Painting OB stripes once a year is arduous enough (can't wait to add all the ingenious bull's eyes, won't that be stunning to see!?) so we just go by the silly little rule book the rest of the time. You see, there's this pesky thing called casual play that includes about 99.9% of the disc golf rounds played yearly, and they too are governed by y'all's decisions. (SIGH!)

august
Mar 12 2010, 03:22 PM
I was the player that questioned whether or not it was OB for being on the line. I thought (and correctly so apparently) that the disc was OB. One of the other player's in the group did not say anything because he felt his disc may be in a similar situation and didn't want to vote one way or the other. We called the officials, plural, over and even they could not agree. One said it was in, one said it was out. The caddy book, which caused some confusion throughout the weekend, stated the "the OB line left...and beyond was OB." I interpreted this as the line itself being OB and therefore questioned the lie and whether a penalty should have been assessed. I am guilty for not having my rule book in my bag at the time but I apparently knew the rules enough to question the lie. I guess I was just not as persuasive as I maybe could have been.

(During the discussion with the officials, this player that abstained from voting went and marked his lie so none of the group saw where it actually was even though the spotter called it OB. He later claimed it to be in bounds and since no one saw it, we had to give him the benefit of the doubt. He also is certified as an official.)

You just revealed yet another screw-up. 803.09D says that if the thrower moves the disc prior to an OB/IB determination being made, it is considered OB. Assuming that the thrower here moved his disc after marking it, then it should have been declared OB. The group did not have to give benefit of the doubt in this situation.

I also have to say that your description reveals something else I feel is a problem; players being more concerned with the outcome of a call than with applying the rules correctly.

For this to happen at an NT event is lame, lame, lame. Not indicative of a high quality event.

krupicka
Mar 12 2010, 03:24 PM
(During the discussion with the officials, this player that abstained from voting went and marked his lie so none of the group saw where it actually was even though the spotter called it OB. He later claimed it to be in bounds and since no one saw it, we had to give him the benefit of the doubt. He also is certified as an official.)

Looks like you should have read 803.09.D

sunrisensunrise
Mar 12 2010, 03:30 PM
You just revealed yet another screw-up. 803.09D says that if the thrower moves the disc prior to an OB/IB determination being made, it is considered OB. Assuming that the thrower here moved his disc after marking it, then it should have been declared OB. The group did not have to give benefit of the doubt in this situation.

I also have to say that your description reveals something else I feel is a problem; players being more concerned with the outcome of a call than with applying the rules correctly.

For this to happen at an NT event is lame, lame, lame. Not indicative of a high quality event.

I agree with your second part. I always thought being retaliated against would be worse but now I think abstaining might actually be worse. I noted that I did not have my rule book on me at the time. The group asked if he was OB and he said that he was in fact in bounds.

Third, and it's merely a technicality, but it was an A-tier for the Amateurs not an NT. You don't hear as many issues on the Pro side compared to the Ams because not as many of them post on the boards.

sunrisensunrise
Mar 12 2010, 03:31 PM
Looks like you should have read 803.09.D

Didn't have my rulebook, won't happen again.

august
Mar 12 2010, 03:32 PM
Looks like you should have read 803.09.D

That would require having a rule book on hand.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 03:34 PM
You just revealed yet another screw-up. 803.09D says that if the thrower moves the disc prior to an OB/IB determination being made, it is considered OB. Assuming that the thrower here moved his disc after marking it, then it should have been declared OB. The group did not have to give benefit of the doubt in this situation.
Perhaps you can use better terms like mistake instead of screw up.

I also have to say that your description reveals something else I feel is a problem; players being more concerned with the outcome of a call than with applying the rules correctly.
Right and what's your point. If an official is willing to give me the benefit of the doubt as a player on an abiguous or close call I am not going to go against it. Again it wasn't as black and white as you may think. It was soooooooooo close.

For this to happen at an NT event is lame, lame, lame. Not indicative of a high quality event.

1) it wasn't a NT event.
2) you sure do make a lot of assumptions having not been at the event. Keep your comments about the events you haven't attended and the people you don't know to yourself.

JerryChesterson
Mar 12 2010, 03:38 PM
I was the player that questioned whether or not it was OB for being on the line. I thought (and correctly so apparently) that the disc was OB. One of the other player's in the group did not say anything because he felt his disc may be in a similar situation and didn't want to vote one way or the other. We called the officials, plural, over and even they could not agree. One said it was in, one said it was out. The caddy book, which caused some confusion throughout the weekend, stated the "the OB line left...and beyond was OB." I interpreted this as the line itself being OB and therefore questioned the lie and whether a penalty should have been assessed. I am guilty for not having my rule book in my bag at the time but I apparently knew the rules enough to question the lie. I guess I was just not as persuasive as I maybe could have been.

(During the discussion with the officials, this player that abstained from voting went and marked his lie so none of the group saw where it actually was even though the spotter called it OB. He later claimed it to be in bounds and since no one saw it, we had to give him the benefit of the doubt. He also is certified as an official.)

Ben it was a pleasure playing with you. You have one heck of an arm. Look me if you ever come to Tejas. I'd enjoy getting another round in with you.

sunrisensunrise
Mar 12 2010, 03:46 PM
Ben it was a pleasure playing with you. You have one heck of an arm. Look me if you ever come to Tejas. I'd enjoy getting another round in with you.

Likewise Scott. Just wish I was able to control my shots a bit more. Hopefully, I can make it out there sometime in the near future.

krupicka
Mar 12 2010, 03:50 PM
That would require having a rule book on hand.

I have a feeling he'll make sure he does next time. There are a number of nuances in the rules and it's not until one experiences many of those situations that some rules become evident even if one has read through the entire rulebook.

RhynoBoy
Mar 12 2010, 04:22 PM
2- You are talking about sidewalk and water being OB. The question is not making sense to me.

You're right, that didn't make sense. I get it now, thanks!

exczar
Mar 12 2010, 04:34 PM
Isn't it so much nicer to play in a round where, when a player's lie is very hard to call, or you believe that the player's lie is just ever so slightly in a penalized position, instead of the group hemming and hawing, not really wanting to make the call against the player, the said player looks at the lie and says something like, "I think it is [insert bad result here], so I'll play it like that".

Just something to remember when you are that player.

I'm not saying that if you have a genuine question, not to bring it up, or if you truly believe that your lie is not in said bad position, you shouldn't argue your point, but if no one is going out of thier way to make a favorable call, and you really can't tell either, then take the hint, man (or woman) up, and take the stroke and move on. Makes for a more pleasant round, and doesn't prey on the hopes that the group will bend the rules to take pity on you.

Same goes for a lost disc. If you have been looking for it for at least a minute or so, go ahead and start the clock on yourself, and show somebody your watch if you can, or better yet, give it to someone else and indicate when the 3 minutes are up.

Wouldn't taking personal responsibility for the Rules make for a more pleasant round for the group?

krazyeye
Mar 12 2010, 05:37 PM
I try my best to call like I see 'em. I don't cut buddies slack but do try to give give the best shake I can. I called a legit foot fault on my wife. When her disc went OB she was not so mad.

discette
Mar 12 2010, 06:27 PM
Wouldn't taking personal responsibility for the Rules make for a more pleasant round for the group?


Agreed. Good sportsmen don't squirm and wriggle.

august
Mar 13 2010, 12:24 AM
Perhaps you can use better terms like mistake instead of screw up.


Right and what's your point. If an official is willing to give me the benefit of the doubt as a player on an abiguous or close call I am not going to go against it. Again it wasn't as black and white as you may think. It was soooooooooo close.



1) it wasn't a NT event.
2) you sure do make a lot of assumptions having not been at the event. Keep your comments about the events you haven't attended and the people you don't know to yourself.

First of all Jerry, and with all due respect, how dare you tell me to keep my comments to myself, especially if you are going to post this situation on the board for comment. None of my comments are inappropriate or rude. I glean the gist of the situation from the posts as do most others here and comment accordingly. If you only want comments from people you know who were also at the event, then this is not the forum for realizing that goal.

As for the term "screw up", yes, sometimes a less intense term is appropriate. However, I have extremely high standards and quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me if it is an NT event or a casual round, the rules should be followed. And this was a screw up that the rules were not understood and followed. The rule clearly says if you move your disc before others in the group can review the position of the disc and determine the IB/OB status, then it is an automatic OB call. In the situation described, the exact opposite was followed.

As for ambiguity or something sooooooo close as you say, my response is BALDERDASH!!!!! It either is or is not. One needs to make the CORRECT call even if it has a negative effect on your score. This is a gentleman's game; be a gentleman. And if you are one of those players who is willing to accept a ruling that you know is not right, then you are part of the problem in this sport that keeps us from moving forward towards universal respect and recognition.

JerryChesterson
Mar 13 2010, 09:42 AM
As for ambiguity or something sooooooo close as you say, my response is BALDERDASH!!!!! It either is or is not. One needs to make the CORRECT call even if it has a negative effect on your score. This is a gentleman's game; be a gentleman. And if you are one of those players who is willing to accept a ruling that you know is not right, then you are part of the problem in this sport that keeps us from moving forward towards universal respect and recognition.

As was stated earlier I didn't think I got the wrong ruling. I thought I got the right ruling (which did turn out to be wrong). I'm just saying when an offical makes a call, the burden isn't on the player to override an offical.

Saying things are black and white is ignorant. Of the 6 people who looked at the lie, 3 thought it was in and 3 thought it was out.

Peace out, no hard feelings :)

csrenda79
Mar 13 2010, 04:08 PM
I don't know what I find more disturbing, the fact that no one in the group was carrying a rule book or the fact such a basic rule was not known or easily understood. In an Super Tour A-Tier event no less.

It takes all of three seconds to open the rule book to the contents and see the OB rules are under 803.09. The first paragraph 803.09A explains clearly and without doubt that the OB line is considered OB. It may take an entire minute to read the rule aloud to the group. Then the group could be on their way and another improper call avoided.

You should be thankful no one in your group had a rule book!

What if you were an official who was on that card that knew the rule but is not supposed to make a ruling within his own division? Was it the right call for me to tell the group to get a ruling instead of pointing out the rule myself?

gvan
Mar 14 2010, 06:14 AM
What if you were an official who was on that card that knew the rule but is not supposed to make a ruling within his own division? Was it the right call for me to tell the group to get a ruling instead of pointing out the rule myself?

If you are a playing official, you are a "player" not an "official" for that round. Your call counts as much but no more than another player on your card.

august
Mar 14 2010, 09:11 AM
Peace out, no hard feelings :)

Absolutely! Same to you Sir.

krazyeye
Mar 14 2010, 09:12 PM
Arguing on rules is fun at times but should not really be necessary. Ambiguity needs to be eleminated.

Patrick P
Mar 15 2010, 05:03 PM
We had a very similar issue occur at St. Patrick's this last weekend on a card that several of us were following before our round started. The player's disc was on the line and beyond but there was the smallest blade of grass that was not painted touching the disc that was inbounds. This was probably the closest situation the players on the card or any of us following the card had to determine to make a correct ruling. No one in the group could make an exact determination, and so they followed the rule book precisely, benefit goes to the player, ruled it inbounds and played on. As a spectator and competitor, I agreed with the ruling 100%, (though I could not make an official ruling at the time since it was the same division).

bruce_brakel
Mar 15 2010, 05:37 PM
What if you were an official who was on that card that knew the rule but is not supposed to make a ruling within his own division? Was it the right call for me to tell the group to get a ruling instead of pointing out the rule myself?You could get out your ruke book and show them the rule without making an actual ruling. If you know the rule you can tell them the rule without making an actual ruling. As an official who is also a player in the same division, you can have an opinion, too. You just cannot say, "Well, I'm an official so my opinion trumps yours." You can only do that for other divisions.

august
Mar 16 2010, 08:22 AM
You could get out your ruke book and show them the rule without making an actual ruling. If you know the rule you can tell them the rule without making an actual ruling. As an official who is also a player in the same division, you can have an opinion, too. You just cannot say, "Well, I'm an official so my opinion trumps yours." You can only do that for other divisions.

And don't forget the appeal option. You can always appeal the decision to the TD after the round.

discgeoff
Apr 13 2010, 03:40 PM
The player or group is supposed to make the call, not an official. An official should normally only be summoned or actually intervene if the issue is not covered in the rulebook or event guide. If I were the official nearby, I would have asked the group to make the call and not made it myself. If they didn't know the rule, I would have noted that the line is OB, now make the call.

The rules state:

803.01 General
D. Appeals:
(1) When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of the doubt
shall be given to the thrower. However, any player may seek the ruling of an official, and the
official's ruling shall supersede the group's ruling. Any player desiring an appeal of the
group's decision shall promptly and clearly express that desire to the group.
(2) If an official is readily available, the group shall stand aside to seek the official's
ruling, allowing other groups to play through.
...

cgkdisc
Apr 13 2010, 03:55 PM
The question was knowledge of the rule whether the OB line itself was in or out. The official provides that answer and the group procedes to make the call. If the call was split then the official could be the tiebreaker if asked. The rules are designed so groups can make calls without the crutch of an official since it's rare that an authorized official is handy.

exczar
Apr 13 2010, 05:59 PM
With emphasis on the word "authorized" :)

august
Apr 13 2010, 07:33 PM
......authorized, and certified!!!