Lyle O Ross
Mar 10 2010, 01:40 PM
A point of discussion has come up on the HFDS web site. If two players show up a late to a tournament, player one is placed on hole 1 which is par 5, and player 2 is placed on hole 4 which is par 3, player one gets 9 strokes, and player 2 gets 7. The rules book reads this way, but is that the real intent? Is that fair?

veganray
Mar 10 2010, 01:44 PM
That is the rule, indeed, but nope, it is not fair (but not how you think). Such a pittance of a sanction is not fair to the players who did what was necessary to get there on time. Missing a hole should lead to 999 (DNF) for that round.

krazyeye
Mar 10 2010, 02:05 PM
Golf clap to veganray.

Lyle O Ross
Mar 10 2010, 02:23 PM
That is the rule, indeed, but nope, it is not fair (but not how you think). Such a pittance of a sanction is not fair to the players who did what was necessary to get there on time. Missing a hole should lead to 999 (DNF) for that round.

Yeah but besides that... :)

IMO, you're right, being late should be a DQ, simply because managing the situation going forward, for the TD, becomes a nightmare. I suspect it's the way it is because when a player has paid to play, it's easier to let them do so than to say no. Not a good reason IMO. The topic came up in a discussion on determining par for a local course and the implications of what par were and what it meant. Given that, who sets par? Since it has implications other than, I feel good, I shot par on that course, but in real penalty situations, all of the sudden it becomes important as to how it is determined and set.

rhett
Mar 10 2010, 03:03 PM
A point of discussion has come up on the HFDS web site. If two players show up a late to a tournament, player one is placed on hole 1 which is par 5, and player 2 is placed on hole 4 which is par 3, player one gets 9 strokes, and player 2 gets 7. The rules book reads this way, but is that the real intent? Is that fair?

If hole 1 was 900 footer and hole 4 was a 220 footer, would it be fair for both late players to receive 7s?

tkieffer
Mar 10 2010, 03:10 PM
A point of discussion has come up on the HFDS web site. If two players show up a late to a tournament, player one is placed on hole 1 which is par 5, and player 2 is placed on hole 4 which is par 3, player one gets 9 strokes, and player 2 gets 7. The rules book reads this way, but is that the real intent? Is that fair?

I think it is the only fair method. Each was given 'par' which should be about the average score on the hole, then had 4 throws added for the penalty.

The other option would just be to give out 7s for each hole missed which I have seen at some tournaments and fits the everything is a par 3 philosophy. But in this case the person who missed the longer hole is penalized less than the person who missed the shorter hole. If a 5 was the average score, the penalty for the longer hole was about 2 throws. If the par 3 was a true 3 or perhaps a potential duece hole, then the person who missed that hole may have been penalized up to 5 throws.

cgkdisc
Mar 10 2010, 03:26 PM
Interestingly, I saw a novice woman just take the par+4 (9) on her first hole on a par 5 over 1000 feet on a really nasty weather day and just start her round on the next hole which was much closer to the parking lot. She figured she could easily throw an 8, 9 or 10 on that hole that day anyway so why bother.

ishkatbible
Mar 10 2010, 04:06 PM
showing up late is one thing, punishable by par+4, understandable.

but refusing to play the course (certain hole) as supposed to, just because it's hard, should not have any penalty other than DQ. I thought i actually read that on one of the other threads a while back.

once you are there for check-in, you are there and ready for play.
THERE ARE NO REASONS TO MISS THE FIRST HOLE.

MTL21676
Mar 10 2010, 04:24 PM
Interestingly, I saw a novice woman just take the par+4 (9) on her first hole on a par 5 over 1000 feet on a really nasty weather day and just start her round on the next hole which was much closer to the parking lot. She figured she could easily throw an 8, 9 or 10 on that hole that day anyway so why bother.


Should be a DQ for intentionally breaking the rules.

MTL21676
Mar 10 2010, 04:28 PM
And this rule is the exact reason anyone who says "par doesn't matter" is dead wrong.

JerryChesterson
Mar 10 2010, 04:29 PM
If I'm the TD, the player will be disqualified under 801.04 (F) "A player who deliberately misplays the course to gain competitive advantage has violated 804.05 A (3) and shall be penalized in accordance with this section." & 804.05 "a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play."

krazyeye
Mar 10 2010, 04:31 PM
DQ that cheater for sure. We have joked about that on the Par 5 hole on the Gold course at Ingleside. Proving intent would be a trick if they didn't fes up.

cgkdisc
Mar 10 2010, 04:45 PM
I probably made it sound like willful intent. I'm not sure she even knew the rule as a novice woman. In this case, she really did get back late from lunch and didn't get out to her hole in time which happened to be this monster.

JerryChesterson
Mar 10 2010, 04:48 PM
I probably made it sound like willful intent. I'm not sure she even knew the rule as a novice woman. In this case, she really did get back late from lunch and didn't get out to her hole in time which happened to be this monster.
She figured she could easily throw an 8, 9 or 10 on that hole that day anyway so why bother.

No backtracking chuck! :D

cgkdisc
Mar 10 2010, 04:51 PM
No, I wasn't the TD and she wasn't my gf :)

davidsauls
Mar 10 2010, 05:53 PM
And this rule is the exact reason anyone who says "par doesn't matter" is dead wrong.

I use it as the only exception to "par doesn't matter".

Lyle O Ross
Mar 11 2010, 02:35 PM
I still like Vegan's approach but admit it's tough. Willful intent is hard to measure. I think MTL makes the best point - par does matter and how you measure it and apply it matters. Take for example Texas States. In this event they use a novel layout. Each year some parts of it change. What is par for the out of the box holes? We well know from SSA vs. distance analysis that distance isn't enough. Do you wait till a round comes in before laying out your par penalty?

veganray
Mar 11 2010, 02:42 PM
Next time I run an event, I'll put into the handout & onto the scorecards that the par for each hole is 995. Scores will be extremely hot compared to par, but any latecomer will be appropriately sanctioned without my having to bend the org's rules or seek a silly waiver.

bruce_brakel
Mar 11 2010, 02:48 PM
Interestingly, I saw a novice woman just take the par+4 (9) on her first hole on a par 5 over 1000 feet on a really nasty weather day and just start her round on the next hole which was much closer to the parking lot. She figured she could easily throw an 8, 9 or 10 on that hole that day anyway so why bother.

One time the junior girls division told the TD they were going to do that, except the TD was playing every hole is par 3. So, since most of them could not do better than a 7 on a 1,000 foot hole, it was a smart move. The TD then decided to start them on the next hole.