jhj97402
Mar 05 2010, 01:37 PM
There's a three-way tie for first at the end of the tournament.

There are two cash spots.

All three players agree to play it off (which is required by the competition manual).

One player is eliminated after two holes. The remaining players continue. A second player is eliminated. The play off is over. The winner claims first place. The player he beat on the last play-off hole claims second place.

End of story?

Not quite. Dave Gentry, PDGA Tour Manager wrote: "In the case of a three way tie for first the second and third place finishers would show us as tied for second and would split second place money."

Explain that to me. How can you be tied for second after you were eliminated first from a three-way play off?

veganray
Mar 05 2010, 01:43 PM
Assume a 2-day, 72-hole event. Imagine 90 players all tied in score after 72 holes. Should the first one out of the 90-person playoff be denied T2 cash despite the fact that she had the same score (after the 72 holes that the tournament was advertised as consisting of) as the eventual winner?

cgkdisc
Mar 05 2010, 01:46 PM
It's clear in the manual that players tied for second split the prizes or cash in this example. However, if there were trophies for 1st, 2nd and 3rd, then the playoff would determine who gets those trophies.

jhj97402
Mar 05 2010, 02:15 PM
It's clear in the manual that players tied for second split the prizes or cash in this example.

Please explain when, in this scenario, there was ever a tie for second. At what exact moment?

When the first player was eliminated it left two players who were now tied for first. If I have two players tied for first and who continue to play off as required by the comp manual, no one who's been eliminated can claim to be tied for second place.

jhj97402
Mar 05 2010, 02:30 PM
Assume a 2-day, 72-hole event. Imagine 90 players all tied in score after 72 holes. Should the first one out of the 90-person playoff be denied T2 cash despite the fact that she had the same score (after the 72 holes that the tournament was advertised as consisting of) as the eventual winner?

Yes. The score at the end of the 72-holes doesn't matter, because that's not the end of the tournament. What matters is who was able to complete all their required holes with the fewest throws. If one player requires more throws to complete their required holes than another player, you can't say these two players are tied when one demonstrated greater proficiency in completing the course.

cgkdisc
Mar 05 2010, 02:35 PM
Every player was tied for second until a single winner emerged. The fact that second and third were sorted out during the tiebreak procedure does not mean they weren't still tied with regard to second place prizes or cash. That's how the tiebreaks have been for as long as the PDGA rulebook has been around. Here's the section from the 1982 rulebook which is now online:

4.0 TIES<O:p</O:p
1. Sudden life play will be used to break a tie for first place only.
2. Play will begin with hole number one unless a different hole is designated by the Director prior to the start of the tournament.
3. Prize money distribution may be determined (other than first place) by adding the total money allocated to the number of positions represented by the players who are tied, dividing that amount by the number of players tied.
4. If ties involve second and third place trophies, the tournament director may have a “sudden life” playoff for those trophies, but not for the prize money.

veganray
Mar 05 2010, 02:40 PM
Yes. The score at the end of the 72-holes doesn't matter, because that's not the end of the tournament. What matters is who was able to complete all their required holes with the fewest throws. If one player requires more throws to complete their required holes than another player, you can't say these two players are tied when one demonstrated greater proficiency in completing the course.

So, in your worldview, all 90 players should play the whole playoff (not "drop off" as they are not tied-for-best on a particular hole), then divide the prize money by their relative finishes when a winner finally emerges?

cgkdisc
Mar 05 2010, 02:56 PM
Just for reference, I thought I would check and see if this is how they do it for cash on the PGA Tour in ball golf. Sure enough they do it the way we've said:

"If the playoff has three or more participants, then the winner gets first place money while the losers, who are deemed to be tied for second place, receive equal shares of consolation money, using the rules described in the "Ties: Other than First Place" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fgf2007/sandbox1#Ties:_Other_than_First_Place) section above.

In any playoff with three-or-more participants, it matters not if a given participant is eliminated before the playoff's final outcome is decided. Imagine in a three-way playoff that one participant is eliminated after one or two holes, and then the other two continue on, say, two more holes before one wins outright. The player that was eliminated from the playoff first is still considered tied for second with the other playoff loser. All losers of 3-or-more man playoffs are always considered tied for second no matter which point in the playoff they are eliminated."

jhj97402
Mar 05 2010, 02:59 PM
Every player was tied for second until a single winner emerged. Chuck, this statement doesn't make sense. If all the players were tied for second, then there would be no play-off because there's only play-offs for first place.

And how can you have three players tied for second when at the end of the final round all three players are tied for first? And then how can you have two players tied for first and then claim a third player who lost has a claim to second place spot. Second place means that there's one person ahead of you. Always has. That is, unless you want to redefine the meaning of the word: "second."

And the 1982 is not the official rules, which now simply refer you to the comp manual.

In my 2006 edition of the rules it says, "Final ties for other ranks shall be officially recorded as ties." There was no final tie for second.

johnrock
Mar 05 2010, 03:17 PM
At the end of regulation play, if 3 players are tied the final score for the event will show all 3 had the same score. A playoff will determine the champ (trophy and 1st place $$$), the other 2 players split 2nd and 3rd place $$$. The final posted results will indicate a playoff was needed, but not how many holes it took.

cgkdisc
Mar 05 2010, 03:37 PM
I only referenced the 1982 rulebook because it hasn't changed since then. What Gentry told you is correct. It's consistent with PDGA policies from the beginning (probably borrowed from ball golf) and is the same as ball golf uses. You simply misinterpreted how playoffs are supposed to be handled in terms of payouts, at least in PDGA events.

Martin_Bohn
Mar 05 2010, 03:38 PM
key words: "regulation play"

jhj97402
Mar 05 2010, 04:40 PM
I only referenced the 1982 rulebook because it hasn't changed since then.

Chuck, please. It has changed since then. Look at the wording in the 2006 edition. Look at the wording currently on line. It is not what you quoted. It has changed.

In the Comp Manual they stipulate a sudden death play-off. First person eliminated in a sudden death, three-way play-off finishes third. That is my understanding based upon the definitions of these words. (If you've got other definitions, please share).

Goggle the definition of 'sudden death': "The tied participants play one extra hole at a time until the tie is broken."

To recap, the three-way tie was broken on hole 3. The two-way tie was broken on the next hole. That is sudden death.

So, if you break a tie with sudden death (by eliminating a player), you can't say that that player is still tied. If you do, you're inventing a new definition for sudden death.

(And yes, I have a dog in this fight!)

cgkdisc
Mar 05 2010, 04:53 PM
Doesn't matter. The Final say is the Tour/Competition Director who is Gentry. If any item is unclear, then he makes the call. There's no purpose asking for help here other than perhaps getting some understanding on why he made the call as he did, and we gave that. None of us can change the ruling. The wording has changed to sudden death from sudden life but the policy has been the same.

tkieffer
Mar 05 2010, 05:55 PM
Congrats on your finish. But the only thing not right is that there seems to be a reluctance to accept the PDGA rules on tiebreaks. From the rule book:

C. First place cash/prize must be awarded to the division winner and listed in the event results. Cash or prizes may not be evenly split between any players tied for 1st place.

D. Final ties for other ranks shall be officially recorded as ties. Prize money distribution to tied players (other than for first place) shall be determined by adding the total money allocated to the number of positions represented by the tied players and dividing that by the number of players tied. Trophy distribution for ties may be determined by sudden death play or by any related disc golf skill event determined by the director.

Google definitions and so on aside. The playoff was to determine the winner. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with who finished second. But perhaps the person affected can take some comfort that they lasted longer (or died less suddenly) than the other?

geo
Mar 09 2010, 12:02 PM
I agree with the PDGA's rule. If you endured a tourney all weekend, and played well enough to secure a tie for second at the end of regulation, you should be entitled to a piece of second place cash even though you were eliminated in the playoff and took third (trophy). This keeps it simple being the score at the end of the tourney counts, not the playoff results.

gippy
Mar 09 2010, 05:40 PM
I disagree If there is a 3,4,5 way tie for frist. Lets say a 5 way tie for frist. Frist person who drops out of play off would be 5th and so on until one remains which would be your winner. Last 2 in play off would be 1st and 2nd and not have 4 people tie for frist JMO
We have a in state tourney Tour that does it that way. If there is a 3 way tie for frist, frist person who loses a hole is 3rd or if someone wins the hole he/she is frist and 2nd and 3rd play on. But this is not the PDGA I think that needs to be looked into I would be upset if i played a playoff and it came down to me and another they beat me then 2 or 3 others that we beat ona hole is tied for 2nd with me. NO they didn't keep up and We I beat them on a hole.

cgkdisc
Mar 09 2010, 05:48 PM
You have to think of the playoff as a coin flipping or roshambo competition and not part of the disc golf competition even though you're throwing discs. That's over and done with and the players actually tied in the official competition. A better way to do it would be to simply split the money equally among those tied for first and just play off for any trophies. But our society demands a winner (even though dual golds have been given out at the Olympics). So you do some sort of playoff to determine that. But the players were truly still tied no matter what happens in the playoff. From a practical standpoint, top pros will many times agree to split the tied money among themselves before the playoff starts regardless what the outcome of the tiebreak may be. I've done it before even at my level and have seen it done on many levels all the time.

gang4010
Mar 11 2010, 02:51 PM
Come on guys - it's really simple. The finish at the end of regulation is a tie for FIRST. Since there are no playoffs for anything BUT first place, the result of any playoff will be FIRST place - with everybody else tied for SECOND.

If you earned the TIED FOR FIRST PLACE status at the end of regulation - you also earned the right of being no worse than second. That's just how the rules are written.

exczar
Mar 11 2010, 03:30 PM
Craiger has it right. At the end of regulation, you and X others are tied for first, and if at the end you don't finish first, then you finish second, and if X is greater than 1, then you finish in a tie for second.

LastBoyScout
Mar 17 2010, 05:26 PM
Hey Chuck? Can you move this thread over to the "Mountain out of a Mole Hill" section? j/k

I don't think i have ever heard the answer reiterated so many times in such a clear and concise method. I will never question how a play off works and why.

Just remember folks, as Ricky Bobby always says: "If you ain't First, your Last"

snap7times
Mar 24 2010, 03:41 AM
it makes perfect sense... 3 players tied for second, really means 1st cuz whoever wins out on the 3 way battle gets first and the 2 remaining, regardless of who was eliminated first, stay in tie for 2nd place and split that prize. "If you ain't first, you are second" applies to both the 2nd and 3rd guys. If there is a trophy for 1-2-3, then that trophy itself would go to 2nd and 3rd place according to when they were eliminated. Same thing happened to me a few years ago. Crystal Clear...

snap7times
Mar 24 2010, 03:46 AM
I disagree If there is a 3,4,5 way tie for frist. Lets say a 5 way tie for frist. Frist person who drops out of play off would be 5th and so on until one remains which would be your winner. Last 2 in play off would be 1st and 2nd and not have 4 people tie for frist JMO
We have a in state tourney Tour that does it that way. If there is a 3 way tie for frist, frist person who loses a hole is 3rd or if someone wins the hole he/she is frist and 2nd and 3rd play on. But this is not the PDGA I think that needs to be looked into I would be upset if i played a playoff and it came down to me and another they beat me then 2 or 3 others that we beat ona hole is tied for 2nd with me. NO they didn't keep up and We I beat them on a hole.

I want to understand what you are saying, can you rephrase that last part?
If I understand correctly, you are saying you don't like the idea if say 3 guys finish for first place, 3 other guys are tied for "2nd" and whoever loses the playoff ties the 2nd group of 3 tied for "2nd"? really the 4th to 6th guys i just mentioned who were tied for "2nd" are really tied for 4th. The top 3 are tied for 2nd, there is no 3rd place. They have a playoff and determine who wins, and which 2 are tied for 2nd..... Hope I understood that right...

jhj97402
Mar 25 2010, 12:38 AM
I don't think i have ever heard the answer reiterated so many times in such a clear and concise method. I will never question how a play off works and why.

The ony problem with these 'clear and concise' explanations is that the 'everybody's tied for second' convention violates 803.01, which states: The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest throws plus penalty throws is the winner.

Here you have a situation where someone has played the stipulated holes with fewer throws and somehow ends up tied with another player who needed more throws to complete the same number of holes.

So 803.01 needs to be rewritten so it says: The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest throws plus penalty throws is the winner unless you're in a multi-player tie for first in which case feel free to spray your plastic all over the park because you're still tied for second.

And please don't say that play-offs aren't really golf, that it's a coin flip or roshambo. That's absurd.

cgkdisc
Mar 25 2010, 12:51 AM
But that's what it is. It's not part of the regular competition and it has its own rules. Give it up. No rule rewrite necessary but perhaps clarification in the Competition Manual might be helpful.

DShelton
Mar 25 2010, 10:39 PM
Maybe he needs a breakdown of the Competition Manual

B. Final ties for first place in any division or for the reduction of field size must be broken by sudden death play. Sudden death play shall begin with hole number one unless a different hole or series of holes is designated by the Tournament Director prior to the start of the tournament.

This means that if there is a tie after regulation play, then the people tied for first play a sudden death round to determine the person who finishes in first place.


C. First place cash/prize must be awarded to the division winner and listed in the event results. Cash or prizes may not be evenly split between any players tied for 1st place.

This means that the first place money is to be rewarded only to the person who wins the sudden death round. None of the first place place money can be split among the people tied for first. It can only be awarded to the person who wins the sudden death play-off.


D. Final ties for other ranks shall be officially recorded as ties. Prize money distribution to tied players (other than for first place) shall be determined by adding the total money allocated to the number of positions represented by the tied players and dividing that by the number of players tied. Trophy distribution for ties may be determined by sudden death play or by any related disc golf skill event determined by the director.

All other people who did not win the sudden death round will be listed as tied for second. All of the remaining money is to be combined and slit among the rest of the field. If there are trophies to be distributed, then those can be given out by the results of the sudden death round. They can also be given out to the person that can get closest to the pin on a given hole, by the person who completes the most putts, etc.

It can't get any clearer than that, can it?

Of course this thread may be one of the reasons for requiring people to pass a rules test to play in an NT.

snap7times
Mar 25 2010, 11:49 PM
The ony problem with these 'clear and concise' explanations is that the 'everybody's tied for second' convention violates 803.01, which states: The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest throws plus penalty throws is the winner.

Here you have a situation where someone has played the stipulated holes with fewer throws and somehow ends up tied with another player who needed more throws to complete the same number of holes.

So 803.01 needs to be rewritten so it says: The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest throws plus penalty throws is the winner unless you're in a multi-player tie for first in which case feel free to spray your plastic all over the park because you're still tied for second.

And please don't say that play-offs aren't really golf, that it's a coin flip or roshambo. That's absurd.

You are looking at the rules incorrectly... playoff throws do not count in the regular round scores... there is no tie for first ever!!!! Even though you verbally say it at tournaments, "oh man, 3 way tie for first", record keeping language says they are tied for 2nd and the one person who prevails in the playoff, however long or short it is, gets first place, the other 2 stay tied for 2nd and so forth...

tkieffer
Mar 26 2010, 10:55 AM
The ony problem with these 'clear and concise' explanations is that the 'everybody's tied for second' convention violates 803.01, which states: The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest throws plus penalty throws is the winner.

Here you have a situation where someone has played the stipulated holes with fewer throws and somehow ends up tied with another player who needed more throws to complete the same number of holes.

So 803.01 needs to be rewritten so it says: The competitor who plays the stipulated round or rounds in the fewest throws plus penalty throws is the winner unless you're in a multi-player tie for first in which case feel free to spray your plastic all over the park because you're still tied for second.

And please don't say that play-offs aren't really golf, that it's a coin flip or roshambo. That's absurd.

The 7 steps towards acceptance:

- Shock or Disbelief
- Denial
- Anger
- Bargaining
- Guilt
- Depression
- Acceptance and Hope

I'd venture that you have made it to #3.