cgkdisc
Mar 04 2010, 05:49 PM
On live coverage today, an amateur picked up his disc that had already rolled across the path into the OB area but it was continuing to roll almost into water. Two-throw penalty? 803.07C
veganray
Mar 04 2010, 05:55 PM
I'd say, "Yes," but 803.07A may allow him a free rethrow after 803.07C's penalty is imposed:
A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw.
The interference was intentional and the rule does not discriminate intentional interference by self from intentional interference by another.
krazyeye
Mar 04 2010, 06:20 PM
Spirit of the game and it is OB. Play next shot with one penalty. Seriously doubt logic prevails.
Patrick P
Mar 04 2010, 06:43 PM
It's good to see that we have a perfectly illustrated and televised example now that holds true to what I have been saying all along about saving discs from going OB water.
Besides, any throw can be declared an unplayable lie (i.e. unfavorable lie) and a player can simply re-throw from the previous lie with a one stroke penalty (which surprisingly, people are not taking advantage of this rule when their 8ft from the basket, miss their shot, and goes OB and then they declare the new lie from the water edge that is farther than their previous lie with the same penalty stroke).
cgkdisc
Mar 04 2010, 07:06 PM
You can't call an unplayable lie when the disc has gone OB. You can call an unplayable lie when say you hit the basket and roll farther away but don't go OB and it might take you more than one throw to get back to the basket. That happens more on gnarly terrain like Dela where you roll deep into a canyon thicket than at Fountain.
veganray
Mar 04 2010, 07:31 PM
Spirit of the game and it is OB. Play next shot with one penalty. Seriously doubt logic prevails.
Spirit of the game?:confused: There is a rule written that precisely describes the situation. Why pull out some fantasy non-rule to try to trump it?
There are definitely scenarios where a player could perform the same action that the anonymous offending player in the example has (i.e., interfering with a still-moving "live" disc in OB territory & begging that the next lie should be the last spot inbounds or previous lie with a mere one-throw penalty) & gain a HUGE advantage from it. Would this nebulous "spirit of the game" allow for him to do so then, as well?
Patrick P
Mar 04 2010, 07:40 PM
You can't call an unplayable lie when the disc has gone OB. You can call an unplayable lie when say you hit the basket and roll farther away but don't go OB and it might take you more than one throw to get back to the basket. That happens more on gnarly terrain like Dela where you roll deep into a canyon thicket than at Fountain. Okay, you are correct, that a player won't call an unplayable lie. However, the player can still choose to re-throw from the previous lie, result is the same.
Angst
Mar 04 2010, 09:22 PM
On live coverage today, an amateur picked up his disc that had already rolled across the path into the OB area but it was continuing to roll almost into water. Two-throw penalty? 803.07C
Did his picking up that disc actually help himself out in any way? I could be wrong, but I can't imagine it did. If the guy was OB and didn't take his penalty stroke, then I can't see why we'd have a problem. A rule that more or less forbids people from saving a potentially lost disc is absurd.
It just sounds like another poorly written rule to me.
cgkdisc
Mar 04 2010, 09:26 PM
Did his picking up that disc actually help himself out in any way?
Yes, it did because he might have lost the disc in the water. Other players throw OB on the course and sometimes lose discs, even though spotters could theoretically have saved some of them if allowed to stop a disc obviously about to roll or skip OB.
Angst
Mar 04 2010, 09:39 PM
Yes, it did because he might have lost the disc in the water. Other players throw OB on the course and sometimes lose discs, even though spotters could theoretically have saved some of them if allowed to stop a disc obviously about to roll or skip OB.
You have a good argument on first point, but the second point seems inapplicable since the guy was already OB. I don't know... it just seems somewhat unsportsmanlike to make people lose their discs. Sure, if I throw one 200' out into the fountain, I understand I'm not getting it back, but to be forced to watch a disc roll into the drink seems absurd.
Its certainly not in the spirit of MY game, but when I sign up for sanctioned events I do understand I'm agreeing to play the PDGA's game... for better or worse.
cgkdisc
Mar 04 2010, 09:44 PM
I wasn't making a personal judgment either way. I just posted what we all saw and how the rule reads. There's the issue of what the ruling should be based on the rule as it stands right now, and the second issue which is if it should be changed to allow saving an OB disc. How would you modify the rule to allow a disc to be picked up once OB? Would only the player be allowed or could others do it for the player if the player gave the OK? Would writing the rule to allow this open a can of worms in some other way?
Angst
Mar 04 2010, 09:57 PM
I wasn't making a personal judgment either way. I just posted what we all saw and how the rule reads. There's the issue of what the ruling should be based on the rule as it stands right now, and the second issue which is if it should be changed to allow saving an OB disc. How would you modify the rule to allow a disc to be picked up once OB? Would only the player be allowed or could others do it for the player if the player gave the OK? Would writing the rule to allow this open a can of worms in some other way?
I understood where you were coming from. I was just discussing the issue.
veganray
Mar 04 2010, 11:56 PM
Would writing the rule to allow this open a can of worms in some other way?
Of course it would. Consider this green (shown in plan & profile views):
http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/plan.jpg
http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/profile.jpg
A player's lie is at point A & basket is at point B. Note the OB road. Due to the odd terrain, a disc rolling over the OB road, under its barrier, and down the dropoff is almost certainly going to end up at point C.
Say a player putts for his deuce from point A, misses, and the disc rolls onto the OB road. It is a HUGE advantage to the player to run over & stop it while still OB (contrary to our current rules), take a one-throw penalty, & reputt from point A for four rather than let the disc take its rightful course (shown by the red arrow) to point C, with the best-case scenario then being a pitch-out & a long uphill putt over OB (from a spot like point D) for four.
cgkdisc
Mar 05 2010, 12:05 AM
However, the player could take an unplayable lie from position C and still return and play from A with only a one throw penalty, same as if they had gone OB, but I get the point of your example. It would be hard to specify in some hypothetical rule how big/wide the OB had to extend so you couldn't have the re-emergence of a roller into IB on the other side.
august
Mar 05 2010, 09:48 AM
I wasn't making a personal judgment either way. I just posted what we all saw and how the rule reads. There's the issue of what the ruling should be based on the rule as it stands right now, and the second issue which is if it should be changed to allow saving an OB disc. How would you modify the rule to allow a disc to be picked up once OB? Would only the player be allowed or could others do it for the player if the player gave the OK? Would writing the rule to allow this open a can of worms in some other way?
Yes, it absolutely would. This comes down to the old adage "if you don't want the disc to go there, don't throw it there". There are probably places where such a disc could eventually roll back inbounds in which case the player would be screwing his/herself by stopping the disc after it is OB.
There are other more important rules that need to be tweaked. This ain't one of them, to use a colloquial Southern expression.
veganray
Mar 05 2010, 12:24 PM
However, the player could take an unplayable lie from position C and still return and play from A with only a one throw penalty, same as if they had gone OB, but I get the point of your example. It would be hard to specify in some hypothetical rule how big/wide the OB had to extend so you couldn't have the re-emergence of a roller into IB on the other side.
Didn't think about the possible unplayable call. We could alter the scenario such that OB road used conventional OB rules & that point C was also OB, but with a forced dropzone at point D.
http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/profile2.jpg
Player could gain a big advantage by slapping down a "live" disc if if were rolling on the OB road toward the dropoff. He'd be throwing #4 from point A instead of throwing #4 from point D.
exczar
Mar 05 2010, 12:36 PM
Getting back to Chuck's original point, the disc was still live, and it makes no difference as to whether the disc was OB or IB when it was interfered with.
If the player had enough time to grab the disc before it went into the water, then the player could have waited until the disc entered the water, then immediately grabbed it. I believe that this would not have violated any rules, since the movement of the disc after it entered the water was "only by the action of the water" (803.03F).
One may argue that a disc about to enter a large OB water area is obviously not going to come back IB, but we must go with the way the rule is currently written, and the subject action by the am player is in violation of rule 803.07C.
NOHalfFastPull
Mar 05 2010, 11:17 PM
exczar wrote: If the player had enough time to grab the disc before it went into the water,
then the player could have waited until the disc entered the water, then immediately grabbed it.
Have you seen or smelled that fountain water?
Can you say flesh eating?
Don't throw a disc you can't loose
Harsh but fair.
steve timm
rhett
Mar 06 2010, 03:55 PM
Keith Johnson was telling me wasn't allowed to retrieve a water disc on one of the courses until after official play had ended there for the day.
That right there is a major advantage of "conceding the OB" and grabbing your disc before it goes in, and IMO shouldn't be allowed.
already rolled across the path into the OB area 803.07C
ALREADY rolled OB.
Need I say more?
cgkdisc
Mar 07 2010, 12:50 AM
ALREADY rolled OB.
Need I say more?
So next time your disc is still moving thru an OB area, you going to call yourself OB? Rule 803.07C is very clear that no one can touch the disc when it's moving regardless whether it's OB or not.