Godfather
Jan 30 2010, 01:36 PM
If the td states that a disc that hits the wall before landing in the water gets to drop from where it hits, would a floating disc that is pushed by the wind to hit the wall get to drop from there?

keithjohnson
Jan 30 2010, 10:56 PM
no, as a disc position can NOT be changed by the action of wind on the water.

august
Feb 01 2010, 11:27 AM
The answer is "no" but for a different reason. It hit the water first, not the wall!

krupicka
Feb 01 2010, 11:48 AM
That reason doesn't hold up. If a disc skips off the water and hits the wall, then the wall is the point where the disc was last in bounds. The fact that it skipped off the water doesn't factor into the equation. It's only when the disc stops moving as a result of the throw and is only moving as a result of the current in the water that subsequent contact with the wall is a non-event.

The applicable rule is
"F. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed
to be at rest once it is floating or is
moving only by the action of the water or
the wind on the water."

md21954
Feb 01 2010, 02:20 PM
i'd suggest that a disc is still moving as a result of the throw until it stops in the water and complete changes course.

cgkdisc
Feb 01 2010, 03:04 PM
In most cases, I would think players would be far enough away to not be able to see the water line anyway, so no one would see what actually happened in terms of what was hit first, if the wall was touched at all or in what sequence. In which case, benefit of the doubt to the player.

august
Feb 01 2010, 03:33 PM
That reason doesn't hold up. If a disc skips off the water and hits the wall, then the wall is the point where the disc was last in bounds. The fact that it skipped off the water doesn't factor into the equation. It's only when the disc stops moving as a result of the throw and is only moving as a result of the current in the water that subsequent contact with the wall is a non-event.

The applicable rule is
"F. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed
to be at rest once it is floating or is
moving only by the action of the water or
the wind on the water."


My reason actually holds up quite well. I think you are missing the simplicity of the initial TD caveat that if the disc hits the wall first, then drops in the water, you get a drop from where it hit the wall. The initial question posed here is if the opposite is true, i.e. disc hits water first, then the wall. Frankly, that is not a very good question at all. Logic will tell you that the opposite of given situation is not the same, but you have to have logic working for you to come to that conclusion.

Keith's statement is correct, but it is even more correct to say, "no, that's the opposite of what the TD said!" Although it is not stated in the initial question, it appears as though this water was declared OB, thus the statement by the TD clarifying a situation where the disc hits the wall first and the player getting a drop.

You mention a disc skipping off the water, which is an entirely different situation that the one presented. However, in that scenario, the disc would likely hit the wall after skipping off the water, and then back into the water where it would come to rest and be declared OB.

exczar
Feb 01 2010, 05:00 PM
If the disc hit the wall by its own accord, either directly, or by skipping off the water, or by landing in the water very close to the wall and then striking the wall due to the momentum of the throw, then the wall would be the last in bounds spot.

If the disc landed in the water without first hitting the wall, and then drifted into the wall, due to the action of the wall and not the momentum of the disc, then the disc should not have been judged as hitting the wall at all.

Godfather
Feb 02 2010, 02:55 PM
Wow. i wasn't sure this would spur such a controversy. Discs were deemed safe as long as they touched the wall. i misspoke saying it had to touch the wall first. This didn't actually happen in the tourny but the question was posed by someone else in my group because someone stuck in a tree can be saved by the wind knocking the disc out so why shouldn't the same principle apply here?

cgkdisc
Feb 02 2010, 03:16 PM
It's the gravity of the situation that's different...

keithjohnson
Feb 03 2010, 01:23 AM
Wow. i wasn't sure this would spur such a controversy. Discs were deemed safe as long as they touched the wall. i misspoke saying it had to touch the wall first. This didn't actually happen in the tourny but the question was posed by someone else in my group because someone stuck in a tree can be saved by the wind knocking the disc out so why shouldn't the same principle apply here?

Because the rulebook allows one and doesn't allow the other in PDGA Sanctioned Events -If you want the disc to be safe hitting the wall after throwing rocks behind the disc so it can touch the wall - run UNsanctioned Events.